Pick your poison, Israel
By Ted Belman
Israel must decide whether to attack Iran or not and whether to accept the Saudi Plan or not. In both cases Israel must pick her poison.
The Iranian threat
Israel has already decided to attack Iran (or so I read) with the intention of setting back her nuclear program by a few years. Likud, Kadima and Labour seem to be in agreement.
Such an attack will be very difficult, giving the distance to Iran and the lack of any agreement to traverse anyone’s airspace. Israel originally hoped to get American approval to fly through Iraq’s air space. But now that the US has signed an Agreement with Iraq giving them control of the airspace, this is not an option. But all is not lost. Should Israel violate Iraq’s airspace, Iraq has no means to prevent such incursion. They have no airforce and no missile system to oppose it. I am not aware of any term of the agreement which would obligate the US to act on their behalf.
Israel will have to decide whether to include any nuclear bombs to ensure greater destruction and whether to attack the Revolutionary Guards, the parliament and the home of the Mullahs. They way I see it, in for a penny, in for a pound. In either case the Iranian response will be the same. It would be great if Israel could capture an airport to enable Israel to land troops to be used to finish off certain facilities. I do not know if this is militarily possible. but if it is, Israel is no doubt considering it.
No doubt Israel would also bomb Kharg Island which is Iran’s largest oil loading terminal accounting for most of her oil exports and revenue.
The response will result in many Jewish, Israeli and American targets being attacked all over the world. Edwin Black in his article “The Iran-Israel nuclear endgame is now much closer.” writes
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“THE CONSEQUENCES for this confrontation are apocalyptic because Iran’s full partner in this enterprise is Russia. The Russian company Atomstroiexport has provided most if not all of the nuclear material for the 1,000 megawatt Bushehr reactor, along with thousands of technicians to service and operate it.
Following its invasion of Georgia, Moscow forged ahead with final delivery plans for the S-300 advanced air defense system which can track scores of IAF airborne intruders simultaneously, whether low-level drones or high-altitude missiles, and shoot them down. But the S-300, the linchpin of Iran’s defense against Israel, will not be fully operational for several months, creating a narrow window for Israel to act. Indeed, Russia has just announced a pause in missile deliveries for the system in fear that it will accelerate an Israeli response.
Iran, of course, has repeatedly threatened to counter any such attack by closing the Strait of Hormuz, as well as launching missiles against the Ras Tanura Gulf oil terminal and bombarding the indispensable Saudi oil facility at Abqaiq which is responsible for some 65 percent of Saudi production. Any one of these military options, let alone all three, would immediately shut off 40% of all seaborne oil, 18% of global oil, and some 20% of America’s daily consumption.”
Once the attack begins, Israel will be inundated with rockets from Lebanon, Gaza and probably Syria. It will thus use the planes not active in the Iranian attack to devastate these locations. A substantial mobilization is not out of the question as land forces will probably be ordered into Gaza and Lebanon.
World opinion and pressure will be ignored.
Israel will be considered the aggressor and most of the world community will not accept that Israel was acting in self-defense. The hatred of Israel and Jews will know no bounds except that privately many will be pleased.
Such a war will deplete Israel’s munitions and it will be in need of resupply. Will America stand by and refuse to resupply Israel as she has done in the past, notably in the Yom Kippur War. At that time Kissinger withheld supplies in order to make Israel more compliant in the peace process to follow. The same thinking would apply here. To make matters worse, Egypt, with American connivance, might mass troops on its borders if not actually invade.
On the other hand, if Israel declines to preempt and waits to be attacked first as she did in the Yom Kipper War, she will be at a decided disadvantage except in the PR war. If the attack on Israel takes the form of a dirty nuclear bomb or the use of chemical or biology weapons, Israel will suffer enormous losses thereby diminishing her ability to respond to the provocation.
To my mind, Israel must decide how likely such an attack is and act accordingly. It may be that Iran prefers to bleed Israel by a thousand cuts, or should I say rockets, rather than invite massive retaliation. Israel chose to endure eight years of sporadic rocket attacks from Gaza as the lesser evil to invading Gaza. Israel could likewise decide whether such future rocket attacks are endurable..
Either way, its poison.
The “peace process”
Here too, Israel must decide to accept the Saudi Plan or reject it
Kadima and Labour favour the former, though the last government tried to get the PA to accept a return of 93% of the land and forgo the right of return but there was no takers. Thus only the Saudi Plan with a return to the armistice lines and a “just solution to the refugee problem” will suffice to get a deal. This would involve the removal of over 100,000 Jews from Judea and Samaria.
The Saudi Plan also requires Israel to return the Golan to Syria.
Only after all this transpires will the Arab world discuss what they meant by their offer of “normalization”.
Also Iran remains an obstacle to such a deal. Its proxy, Hamas will never agree to a permanent peace with Israel or to recognized borders for Israel. The Quartet is now working to bring Hamas into the PA ostensibly as a junior partner. In reality Hamas will dominate.
The only thing Israel will get from such capitulation is borders which are recognized by the world even if not by Hamas and Iran. Such recognition though isn’t necessarily dependable. The world recognized the borders of Palestine, as it then was, in the Palestine Mandate. Such recognition was soon abandoned. The world also accepted the requirement for “secure” borders in Resolution 242 otherwise known as “defensible borders” but who but Netanyahu talks about that now.
But we are not done yet. Israel will be demanding that Palestine be demilitarized. Fat chance. She is currently demanding that Hamas not be allowed to rearm. Hamas has made it clear that it will never give up its right to do so. So it is safe to say that Israel will not be able to keep the West Bank demilitarized. Even if the PA would agree to it, the PA has never kept an agreement to date. So much for the value of a signed piece of paper.
The agreement will provide for a corridor connecting the West Bank with Gaza. Aside from the security risk this represents, it would allow for Gazans to move from Gaza to the West Bank thereby transferring the Gaza radicalism and population density to the West Bank. In addition, perhaps a million refugees from refugee camps in the surrounding countries will return to the new State of Palestine. How can the West Bank with its limited land and water resources sustain such a population? How can such a state be viable. This instability will be used as a tool to further destroy Israel.
Israel will also want the PA to agree that Palestine will not enter into defense treaties with other Arab countries. This they will not agree to.
After all is said and done, what is to stop rockets from raining down on Israel from the West Bank. Nothing.
Who is to say that the Arabs will ever make peace with Israel? The Muslims are taking over Europe through intimidation made easier due to liberalism. The Seeds of Liberalism is one of the many articles attesting to this. In fifty years there will be nothing left of the Europe that we once knew. So why should the Arabs accept any less a fate for Israel.
It is for these reasons that Netanyahu is putting his hopes on economic development as a means to stabilize the West Bank. He is thinking of giving the Palestinians limited sovereignty, otherwise known as autonomy, rather than full sovereignty. But the Palestinians have rejected economic development time and time again. They prefer to eradicate the “occupation” which includes Israel. They will be aided and abetted in this project by Israel’s Arab fifth column.
The Obama administration has accepted the idea of economic development but not as a substitute for diplomatic progress. It is careful to always say it wants a secure Israel to result. But few believe that capitulation by Israel will make it more secure.
Israel could also decide to follow the National Union’s plan to annex Judea and Samaria together with its 1.4 million Arabs. In the expanded Israel, Jews would outnumber Arabs by a ratio of 2:1. Citizenship would be available to these Arabs, over an extended period, say 15 years, giving time for detoxification, subject to certain prerequisites. These include loyalty oaths, knowledge of Hebrew, national service and so on. Of course all terrorists and their huggers would have to be expelled.
Prior to the annexation, Israel would pass a constitution declaring Israel to be a Jewish state. Such constitution would perhaps provide for two houses of government and would require super majorities to pass any changes to fundamental things.
The local governments would be given as much responsibility or autonomy as they can responsibly handle. There would be zero tolerance for incitement. Everyone would be equal before the law. In fact this was what was envisioned by the League of Nations in the Palestinian Mandate passed in 1922. It gave the Palestinians civil and religious rights but not political rights.
Very few refugees would be permitted to return to the expanded Israel. Gazans would be left high and dry to fend for themselves.
It would be best if Israel could get American approval to such a plan but that is unlikely. So Israel would have to go it alone. Just as she annexed Jerusalem without international approval, she could annex Judea and Samaria. This is simply done by extending Israeli law to these territories in replacement of occupation law. The word “annexation” need not come up. The “occupation” would then come to an end.
Oslo and the peace process have given the Palestinians hope of destroying Israel and this hope has fuelled the resistance. Kill the hope, you kill the resistance. As Palestinian nationalism dies, the fifth column in Israel will also evaporate. Then Israel can focus on creating a just society.
If Israel chooses this path she will have to contend with an irate world and probably sanctions. But in time things will settle down. As more and more Arabs earn citizenship, the opposition to the annexation will diminish.
As much as Israelis would love to include Judea and Samaria within their borders, they are very reluctant to include another 1.4 million Arabs within Israel’s borders. Given their experience with Arabs consisting of 20% of the current population and the experience of European countries in contending with as little as a 10% Muslim minority, they are very reluctant to contend with a 33% Arab minority. There is much opposition to doing so. In fact Yisrael Beiteinu wants to give land away together with its Arab inhabitants in order to reduce the 20% minority of Arabs. Israel must chose between more land and a higher minority percentage or less land and a lower percentage. In the former case there would be no need to negotiate borders or divide Jerusalem. In the latter case Israel would be enabling a hostile Arab state to be created looming over the Israeli coastline.
Either way, Israel, pick your poison.
Good, thoughtful commentary Ted. Israel is damned if she does, damned if she doesn’t. It didn’t have to be that way; if Israel had leveled the al-aqsa mosque and pursued annexation in 1967, the West (which was in Israel’s camp at the time) would have likely seen this as justice for the victor following a war of intended annihilation and we would not be here today. But that’s history…
Unfortunately, I see annexation and the incorporation of millions of Palestinians as quixotic and compounding the real problem which is the structural inability of Muslim Arabs to live in harmony and equality with any other non-Muslim people (or with each other). Annexation will only increase the magnitude of the problem. And it will not end the conflict; Syria and Lebanon will not assimilate the “refugees” and the Saudis will never “normalize” relations with Israel.
One thing is for sure: Iran will be a game-changer.
Comment by Charles Martel — March 5, 2009 @ 10:36 am
The last time I proposed precisely this I was attacked on your site Ted by Yamit82 nor did you step in to defend me. I agree with your analysis cum statement here Ted. As a non Jew am I allowed to according to the book of Yamit82? Not an unimportant point!
You write
This confirms everything I have thought about this issue since I began to study it many years ago.
The progressive nature of Israel is determined by its objective position in the world. In order to survive Israel and Israelis have got to fight.
No matter what is written about Left, Right, Religious, Non Religious and even downright Atheists (Horror of Horrors!) Jews to go on living on this earth have got to fight and this means to confront Iran. If only it were not so but our task is to understand reality.
I also agree with the sentiment of “setting back”.
I approach this from a very different, in fact utterly opposing, view to that of Yamit82.
In yesterday´s post Yamit stated in reply to JoshR that the rest of the world to him mattered nothing. But I am afraid despite my big differences with Peskin he is nearer to reality than Yamit. In fact the only thing that will save Israel and the Jews of Israel AND the Diaspora, is that which will save all of us from Fascism, that is the Socialist Revolution.
Ask the simple question, why are the US and EU nazis (see Blowback by Christopher Simpson for use of the word “Nazis”) donating 5 BILLIONS to the Nazis of Hamas Fatah Iran.
Gil White is correct, and Yugoslavia showed it totally, Iran IS the baby of the US Nazi Capitalist Elitist Machine.
Where I differ with Ted I will deal with next.
Comment by Felix Quigley — March 5, 2009 @ 10:38 am
Very good commentary Ted, I believe you have to go with No. 1 - Strike Iran. Unfortunately Israel can’t wait on the US for support as I see it. The US right now is stuck with a wimp of a president (a community organizer) who thinks he can win over Iran with diplomacy and field by the idiots he assembled in his administration. If it were Pres. Reagan on this shift, Israel would not only have the green light but would assist in the mission.
You are right, Iraq will not stop Israel and I don’t see Syria, Lebanon or Gaza getting involved for fear the retaliation Israel would rain on them. They may talk tough but they are not stupid.
Comment by rongrand — March 5, 2009 @ 11:05 am
Charles Martel
In referring to 1967 you only deal with the surface appearance of the problem.
The reason that Israel did not do that, I mean press home their advantage gained by fighting that defensive war in 1967 that you allude to, is that nothing fundamental had changed in the principles on which Israel was established.
This Charles brings us to the heart of the problem which you can never reach.
It was at the sixth Zionist Congress, and Herzl´s last, (he died sh0rtly afterwards) that Trotsky clashed with Herzl. In one respect Herzl was ahead of Trotsky AT THAT STAGE
Great credit must be paid to Herzl and we have
http://4international.wordpress.com/2009/01/29/historical-series-1/
But the only programme or method which Herzl could bring to bear on the issue was a bourgeois national one. It was on the paucity of that programme that the far seeing Trotsky clashed. Here Trotsky and the Bolsheviks like Lenin were miles ahead of Herzl.
Herzl depended on the capitalist nations of the world to help the Jews. That was his weakness.
But there is and will be an alternative to Herzl and that is revolutionary socialism.
Despite what the theoretical desert called Yamit82 maintains there is an alternative and it will not come from religious people praying, but will come from the socialist revolution, and from socialist revolutionaries who are Zionists, that is Zionists of a new type bgecause the old bourgeois type of Zionists have had their day, religious or non religious they are bankrupt. We covered this also in our estimation of the present so called left and why it needs to be fought against and replaced.
(ibid)
Actually Charles Martel 1967 is not history, it is the present. Especially is this the case in that there is a continuous thread from Herzl tot he present. You cannot grasp it and willnot grasp it because you are a bourgeois, that is in the final analysis you depend on US Imperialism, just as Herzl ddepended on the Brits etc.
But only what I have writen above will explain the crucial weakness in Jewish leadership today, and about this weakness I would say examplified above all by Yamit82 and his quite silly insularity, and his quite pungent arrogance which is drawn from this insularity. You see Yamit82 I met your type when I fought against the same insularity in Ireland typified by the Sinn Fein reactionaries. I do commend your knowledge on some issues but I warn one and all that you can only lead the Jews to utter destruction. You are at bottom as conservative as the day is long.
Comment by Felix Quigley — March 5, 2009 @ 11:05 am
[...] Israpundit » Blog Archive » Pick your poison, Israel [...]
Pingback by Israpundit » Blog Archive » Pick your poison, Israel — March 5, 2009 @ 11:09 am
Rongrand
I know you mean well for Israel but you need to face up to the fact that it is the US system of capitalism and imperialism which is the problem, and that the US Governance is Nazi (see Blowback by Christopher Simpson)
That you raise Reagan as a saviour of Israel means that you are not even at the starting blocks in understanding the real problems facing Israel from THE US NAZI STATE.
I suggest you reas this by the founder of Israpundit Joseph Alexander Norland
http://www.israpundit.com/archives/2005/06/eisenhower_and_2.php
and follow the story of Eisenhower
Told by an expert
And also look up Francisco Gil White on the record of the US Nazis towards Israel the country which you support very much.
Rongrand if you scan down to the year 1985 and click 3 you will find some information which may temper your admiration for the great and legendary “cowboy friend of the Jews”
http://www.hirhome.com/israel/hirally2.htm#reagan
Comment by Felix Quigley — March 5, 2009 @ 11:25 am
email rec’d
Comment by Ted Belman — March 5, 2009 @ 11:36 am
email rec’d
Comment by Ted Belman — March 5, 2009 @ 11:37 am
There is an element that you left out which is essential if Israel opts to annex Judea and Samaria and offer a path to citizenship for the Arab population - an idea which I support. Israel needs to reform its political system to reduce the power of the ultra-Orthodox Rabbinate which has demanded extreme hurdles on those who consider themselves to be Jewish or wish to be Jewish. Israel needs to attract more Jewish immigration but the hostile and exclusivist attitudes of the rabbinate are an obstacle. These rabbis demand that converting Jews live up to lifestyle standards that most “natural born” Jews do not follow. If Israel reforms its political system so that the Knesset is less fragmented, the ultra Orthodox parties will no longer be able to hold the country hostage to their extreme interpretations of Torah. This will make it more feasible for individuals who consider themselves to be Jewish and want to be part of the Jewish people to be counted as Jews in Israel with reasonable rules.
There are thousands if not hundreds of thousands of persons in India and Africa who would like to come to Israel and live as Jews but are prevented from doing so by these internal Israel religious-political factors. That these individuals might not meet the lineage criteria to be Jews was not their fault but due to the circumstances of long ago imposed exile. Israel should be finding ways to reunite those who wish with the Jewish people, not keep them out. Similarly, most American Jews do not wish to live an Orthodox lifestyle and this deters at least some from considering living in Israel (economic and social factors are at work of course). Removing this hurdle might make it easier for more Jews from the U.S. to consider aliyah.
If such steps are taken, it will help enlarge the Jewish majority in Israel further ensuring a longterm stable Israel that is both Jewish and democratic.
Comment by Wombat5000 — March 5, 2009 @ 11:43 am
Ted
You write this after your promising start
To follow the contortions of all those figures and percentages Ted you would need…heck Ted you would need to be a lawyer.
This is where Trotskyism and revolutionary socialists are much closer to the idealist religious dreamers like surprizingly enough Yamit82 than we are to you.
The Jews returned to Zion because they had a dream. It was this dream which kept them going over the 2000 years of terrible persecutions. Is this going to be sacrificed over discussions of percentages etc!!
The land of Zion belongs to the Jewish people. Judea as you well know belongs to the Jews. Gaza and Sinai are part of the heritage of the Bible and of the Jewish people.
These things must never be given up. They may be wrested away from the Jews but the Jews must never give them up. Key difference.
I am a dialectical materialist but I believe that human beings are moved by their spirit and their spirit is actualized by their heritage. The Bible is part of the Heritage of the Jewish people.
The Arabs are going to have to be fought on this one. They have no heritage and no ties to this area. Sure they had some isolated villages and a slight wandering nobadic population. But that is not the same as a national tie to the area.
Jews have already given to the Arabs all of TransJordan. That was a mistake, a big mistake.
But how many people in the world know this?
So Jews have simply got to STOP talking about percentages of the rest, that is the remaining 20 per cent.
It is clear also that if Jordan and Egypt remain cold and hostile to the Jews that these areas of Jordan and Sinai are going to have to be fought over again. Tactically perhaps postpone this but do understand its inevitability.
There are literally tens of millions of good American people who this minute can be won to the viewpoint of the Jews, and with the growing hatred of Islam among the common folk in Europe the situation here is still very fluid.
In America you need to organize yourselves very rapidly in order to create a challenge on the ground to those Jewish organizations who are so much in the pocket of the US NAZI RULING MACHINE OF THE US GOVERNMENT no matter what President is in power. AS THE WAY THAT THESE JEWS JOINED FORCES WITH THE US NAZIS TO CRUSH THE SERBS PROVES.
The Jews of Israel are waiting and depending on us to make serious moves. And on Israpundit the reactionary isolationism of Yamit82, surely the unwelcome output of a disfunctional mind, an output created perhaps and understandably by the horrific Exile, must be sharply challenged.
Comment by Felix Quigley — March 5, 2009 @ 11:48 am
I planned to finish then I saw this
From Wombat5000
Oh for goodness sake! The Arabs hate Israel, hate Jews. On what basis do you then offer them “citizenship
Are these Arabs prepared to join up and go over and fight the Iranian Guard Fascists?
Your ideas about Jews returning to Israel from India, then what does this actually mean, if your ideas about the Arabs are so woolley?
It is the task of the coming socialist revolution to create a space where Jews are free to work out how they live. Thus I do not understand what you say the Rabbis must do. I thought that the Rabbis were central to Judaism.
But while this is the task of the socialist revolution the Jews in the Homeland must do their bit, and the least they can do for starters is to look reality in the face. The Arabs hate the Jews and as long as Islam rules they will continue to.
The first step before you even think of one single Jew coming to Israel is to be clear on what to do politically.
The whole concept of a second Palestinian state has to be successfully countered and destroyed in every part of the world, of course starting in Israel.
There is a wooliness in Ted´s thinking which allows the Wombat500s to enter in. There I have said my piece and I am out.
Comment by Felix Quigley — March 5, 2009 @ 12:03 pm
Felix, how can someone otherwise knowledgeable be so confused on this issue? Marx, though born Jewish, was the quintessential anti-Semite. His ideas and arguments on Jews as the primary purveyors of capitalism were adopted and exploited by Hitler, Stalin, and the Arabs.
The modern successors to your socialist heroes are the lefties who are anti-Israel, anti-Semitic and march with the Islamofascists.
The days of the Kibbutzniks are over and aren’t coming back. Israel’s economy would shrink by a third if she ever tried to recapture her early socialist roots. Do you believe in that position she would have the economic or military means to defend her people against the Arabs or Iran?
Comment by Charles Martel — March 5, 2009 @ 12:07 pm
email
Comment by Ted Belman — March 5, 2009 @ 12:09 pm
email
Comment by Ted Belman — March 5, 2009 @ 12:13 pm
email
Comment by Ted Belman — March 5, 2009 @ 12:14 pm
Felix you make a good case.
Trust me by no stretch of the imagination I am naive when comes to history such as this. I guess equally naive as to why this dislike for Jews and Israel.
Felix tells what did the Jews ever do to deserve this treatment? I said before I grew up in a Catholic school system, lived a 1/2 block away from a Jewish CC where I hung out from time to time. My neighbors were Jewish, the Order of Nuns who ran our Elementary and HS were always being aided by the JCC.
In my teens my Jewish friend, a big guy use to drive an old (then) Packard Son. In addition to delivering kosher meat (I rode shotgun) for a butcher shop, we would sneak in the drive-in-theater. He would be alone driving and a couple of us were in the trunk. Like we really fooled them. This big car with big guy driving alone and the back end almost dragging on the ground.
I had no reason to or was ever taught to dislike my Jewish neighbors.
Anyway, tell me why, please.
Comment by rongrand — March 5, 2009 @ 12:18 pm
Ted,
Your analysis makes clear that an attack on Iran will not be a raid. It will require full mobilization of the army and possibly coordinated attacks on Gaza and Lebanon. There will be weeks of open warfare with extensive damage on the home front. There is likely to be massive damage to the international oil infrastructure, raising the ire of the entire west. As you point out, there could also be an IDF expeditionary force in Iran.
The duration of such a war is critical to Israel. How long can the IDF sustain such conflict? What of the resupply issue? I doubt Obama will openly resupply tanks, planes, munitions, and how will we replace the soldiers killed and injured? Yet, in the end I suspect Israel will attack. They have very little choice.
After the war the entire situation will be fluid as it was in 1967. Israel tried to parlay its spectacular victory into peace and the Arabs refused. This time, if there is a great victory Israel will establish its own borders and control over its holy sites. For instance, I would close the Temple Mount to Arabs and evict the Waqf. I would annex Judea and Samaria, with no obvious disposition of the Arabs. Those who want to leave can leave. Those who stay will have to make their peace with the Jews. All NGOs and quasi governmental agencies, e.g. Fatah, PA, Hamas, UNRWA would all be evicted.
If there is a defeat it will be the end of Israel. There will be no help from America or Europe. We will be lucky if they accept Jewish refugees. So the question is whether Likud will bet the country on the outcome of this war. Do they really have a choice? I suspect they will conclude they have no choice.
Comment by Fred — March 5, 2009 @ 12:19 pm
I agree with Charles Martel: Too much has passed for Israel to do today what it has refused to do when we had the opportunity to do so with min. opposition. Israel and the territories must be depopulated of Arabs. I don’t care what name is put to the act or how it will be accomplished but it has to be done, period. Even if most of the Arabs in someway remain peaceful a percentage always won’t and they will cause those peaceful Arabs to aid and support them and to radicalize many of those who were not before. There are may ways into Iran without crossing Iraq. The biggest geopolitical threat to Israel besides a direct nuke attack against Israel by Iran is a nuke arms race in all the countries in our region if Iran goes nuclear. Iran doesn’t have to attack Israel to do us in, the threat alone can be enough. Personally I believe the blowback threat is inflated and exaggerated.
Here is a tidbit to contemplate!
Pentagon banned Israeli drone sales
Maariv reports that in December 2008, Pentagon barred Israel from negotiating the Heron UV sale to Russia, potentially a $1.5 billion contract. Various America restrictions on Israeli arms exports cost us more than we receive aid from America.
Felix:
This state is incomprehensible, rephrase it so it’s meaning is clear to us non dialectics.
Non Jewish Atheists for me are preferable to many Hypocritical “Zionist” and “religious” Jews.
You are probably right but since we bare the weight of acting and the consequences of bother acting or not, I bothers me that those who have nothing to lose seem to be the most vitriolic in advocating such a scenario, especially one whose agenda this scenario might benefit. ” Out Chaos Comes Order” ? Might apply here or not. Just a passing thought.
What is your understanding of my view?
In your world of reality we would not be here to begin with. We would not have survived for two millennium in the exile, would never have declared a state, would never have survived 48, not to mention with more territory than we began the war with, would never have won the 67 war, 73 war, have reached a population today of 7 million, have become the best farmers in the world, one of the biggest and best armies in the world despite our recent failures which were mostly political in cause. I could go on but our existence and what we have become transcends your real politic and Atheistic communist world view. We have grown accustomed to living under one shadow or another for all that’s worth.
In truth our reality is on a different level than yours and Peskins and I see no way to bridge the gap as it is as impossible as to explain color to a man blind from birth.
Maybe? But I would choose Czechoslovakia for a better example and more Germain.
another tidbit:
Clinton to Jews: Be helpful
Hillary openly meddled with Israeli judicial system when she called the rare court orders which instruct Jerusalem municipality to demolish a few illegal Arab buildings, “unhelpful” in the peace process and “not in keeping with Israeli obligations.” Guess what, Hillary, Israel’s only obligation is to keep Jerusalem united.
Hillary probably just does not realize that her husband’s Road Map plan involves transferring to Muslim enemies the parts of Jerusalem thick with Jewish history. The Arab buildings to be demolished destroy archeological layers dating to the First Temple.
Comment by yamit82 — March 5, 2009 @ 12:24 pm
Charles
I am in the middle of studying this with a view to writing on it. It is very easy to say this about Marx. But people who say he was antiosemitic, a Jewish self hater, etc, usually are biased in favour of capitalism.
There are a number of uncomfortable facts. But it will take a little time.
But
1. Marx was defending the Jews in Austria against a real antisemite in the New Hegelians, Bruno Bauer. This has been overlooked
2. Sometimes people deliberately overlook things
3. Meaning they are biased to start with
4. The visit to Jerusalem has been totally wiped off the history books. And especially by the present day Left. Why do they find that uncomfortable.
But this is just a taster.
Yamit
Your view does change, but it seems to be consistent that you do not want outside help, whereas I see the strike against Iran as a delaying action, and that outside help IN THE FORM OF THE REVOLUTIONARY SOCIALIST ACTION is the only thing that in the end can save Israel.
I would happily go to Israel and hold meetingd there etc to fight for this point of view. But it also has to be done in Europe AND ABOVE ALL IN AMERICA.
This is really where people like Bill Narvey and others come in. There must be non stop meetings marches propaganda in fighting for Israel in the period ahead.
THE ISOLATION OF ISRAEL MUST NOT BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN.
Fred writes
Yes, Fred has expressed in another way what I was writing about.
There is no way to underplay the seriousness of what is at stake, and you see Yamit82 I am just looking at it, commenting, trying to play my part.
But Yamit82 it is a long time since I realized that the Left were lying and that the right was on the side of Israel and of course I will die with those sentiments intact. I have no ulterior motive. That approach is abhorrent to me.
I do see the socialist revolution as being coincident with the survival of the Jews.
Charles on Netanyahu. Ask Ted. I supported the Netanyahu efficiency drive when he was Minister. Labour are right wing, antisemitic and total reactionaries. The Stalinists in Israel are all traitors, like Levy and Hass and the whole of Haaretz.
Charles just hold your fire and read our positions on 4international. Things are not as they seem.
http://www.4international.wordpress.com
Comment by Felix Quigley — March 5, 2009 @ 1:07 pm
Felix you make a good case.
Trust me by no stretch of the imagination I am naive when comes to history such as this. I guess equally naive as to why this dislike for Jews and Israel.
Felix, tell me what did the Jews ever do to deserve this treatment? None of it makes sense.
First of all, Israel is the only Nation in the ME that can be trusted. Why would we not support this democracy? We don’t owe the Arabs anything as I see it.
Another question, how does the American Jews play into this? Could they be part of the problem?
Help me out.
Comment by rongrand — March 5, 2009 @ 1:12 pm
von der Goltz: “The statesman who, knowing his instrument to be ready, and seeing war inevitable, hesitates to strike first, is guilty of crime against his country.”
Iran has, on the national level, done the two things necessary to justify a lethal response:
(1) It has made a violent threat
(2) It has displayed the means of carrying out that threat
Under civilian law, you can legally kill another person only if he puts you in “reasonable fear” for your life. To do this, he must express the intention to cause you serious harm (”I am going to kill you” would be an example) and display the means of doing so (e.g. brandishing a gun or, if he is close enough to use it, a knife). Iran has expressed the intention to destroy Israel, and it has brandished the means of doing so. Israel is accordingly within its rights to fix the problem by any means necessary, including preemptive nuclear attack if that is what it takes to shut down Iran’s WMD programs for good.
Comment by Bill Levinson — March 5, 2009 @ 1:41 pm
Felix: Moses Hess, Moses Hess, Moses Hess.”ROME AND JERUSALEM” “ROME AND JERUSALEM”!!!
You are a classic revisionist student of history.
Hess was born in Bonn and received an Orthodox upbringing, but was soon drawn to philosophy and particularly philosophical socialism, collaborating with Marx and Engels. He lived intermittently in Paris from the early 1840s until his death. Unlike Marx and Engels, he saw the racial struggle as taking precedence over the class struggle, soon breaking with the “scientific socialists” and even being reviled by them. In 1862 he published the Zionist classic Rome and Jerusalem, declaring that “after twenty years of estrangement, I have returned to my people.” In it he argued for the revival of Jewish nationalism and the reconstitution of the nation in its ancient homeland, where the unique ethical and religious genius of the race could flourish. He envisaged a society founded on socialist principles in a ramified network of agricultural settlements and cooperative communities.
Hess originally advocated Jewish integration into the universalist socialist movement, and was a friend and collaborator of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. Hess converted Engels to Communism, and introduced Marx to social and economic problems. He played an important role in transforming Hegelian dialectical idealism theory of history to the dialectical materialism of Marxism, by conceiving of man as the initiator of history through his active consciousness.
Hess was probably responsible for several “Marxian” slogans and ideas, including religion as the “opiate of the people.” Hess became reluctant to base all history on economic causes and class struggle, and he came to see the struggle of races, or nationalities, as the prime factor of past history.
Hess’s Rome and Jerusalem. The Last National Question went unnoticed in his time, along with the rest of his writings. Most German Jews were bent on assimilation and did not heed Hess’ unfashionable warnings.
Hess interprets history as a circle of race and class struggles. He contemplated the rise of Italian nationalism and the German reaction to it, and from this he arrived at the idea of Jewish national revival, and at his prescient understanding that the Germans would not be tolerant of the national aspirations of others and would be particularly intolerant of the Jews. His book calls for the establishment of a Jewish socialist commonwealth in Palestine, in line with the emerging national movements in Europe and as the only way to respond to antisemitism and assert Jewish identity in the modern world.
When Theodor Herzl first read Rome and Jerusalem he wrote about Hess that “since Spinoza jewry had no bigger thinker than this forgotton Moses Hess” and that he would not have written Der Judenstaat (The Jewish State) if he had known Rome and Jerusalem beforehand. Wladimir Ze’ev Jabotinsky honored Hess in The Jewish Legion in World War as one of those people that made the Balfour declaration possible, together with Herzl, Rothschild and Pinsker.
Quotes from Hess:
* “You may don a thousand masks, change your name and your religion and your mode of life, creep through the world incognito so that nobody notices that you are a Jew yet every insult to the Jewish name will wound you more than a man of honour who remains loyal to his family and defends his good name.”
* “Even an act of conversion cannot relieve the Jew of the enormous pressure of German anti-Semitism. The Germans hate the religion of the Jews less than they hate their race - they hate the peculiar faith of the Jews, less than their peculiar noses.”
* “The race struggle is the primal one, and the class struggle secondary. The last dominating race is the German.”
* “Yet it seems that a final race struggle is unavoidable”
* “The Messianic era is the present age, which began to germinate with the teachings of Spinoza, and finally came into historical existence with the great French Revolution.”
* “To this coming cult, Judaism alone holds the key. This “religion of the future” of which the eighteenth century philosophers, as well as their recent followers, dreamed [...] Each nation will have to create its own historical cult; each people must become like the Jewish people, a people of God.”
(Quotes from Rome and Jerusalem by Moses Hess)
* “The Christian… imagines the better future of the human species… in the image of heavenly joy… We, on the other hand, will have this heaven on earth.”
The Bible is the heart and soul of the Jewish People, without it there would be no Jewish people.There would be no purpose! It is in fact so much more: It is our National constitution
Comment by yamit82 — March 5, 2009 @ 2:04 pm
Wombat5000
You say may things and all of them based on ignorance if not outright stupidity. Sometimes it is better to be silent so that some might think you are intelligent.
Comment by yamit82 — March 5, 2009 @ 2:27 pm
\
Felix, right again. I also believe that the majority of American support Israel and would be disturbed by these actions.
Americans are taking their eyes off the candidates and too often listen to the liberal left media for guidance , big mistake especially with MSNBC, NBC, CBS and New York Slime (as Mark Levine refers to it).
Now we’re stuck with a community organizer, overly impressed with himself, arrogant and is clueless. Scary, how about Hillary, Geo Mitchell, Holbrooke. God help us.
Comment by rongrand — March 5, 2009 @ 3:02 pm
An article by Ari Shavit on the Iranian choices just came to my attention
Resolution 2010
If Israel is going to attack Iran in the next two years, it must take the following possible developments into account: The attack will fail. The attack will succeed in part and delay the Iranian nuclear program only somewhat. The attack will succeed but lead to a harsh counterstrike. The attack will ignite an unending Iranian-Israeli war. The attack will cause Israel’s allies to break off their alliance with it. The attack will lead to worldwide condemnation of Israel that will isolate it and turn it into an international pariah.
If Israel does not attack Iran over the next two years, it must take into account other possible developments: A nuclear Iran could become a regional power that will tip the scales in the struggle between extremists and moderates in the Middle East. A nuclear Iran that controls the energy routes could gain enough power to squeeze Europe, Russia, China and even the United States. A nuclear Iran could erode Israeli deterrence and initiate serious and ongoing confrontations in the south and north. A nuclear Iran and the terror groups it supports will cast a pall of fear over many Israelis.
Shavit presents the same quandry but only better.
Comment by Ted Belman — March 5, 2009 @ 3:43 pm
I will not take part in this discussion because it reminds me of two parties trying to threaten each other until they tire of the situation and all go home.
If there is going to be a war and I’m almost certain of it, let it come. Israel must use all the force it has available, including nuclear force, to destroy the aims of Iran. With a war breaking out in this geological area, it will force the USA to choose sides and join in. If they should choose to side with the Iranians and Russia, it would result in a terrible political disaster in the US. Consequently, it is my opinion that the US would put it’s forces on the alert and would join in on the side of Israel should the war take turns away from Israel. Israel must be stockpiling all necessary war supplies and equipment to last at least 60 days. The war would not last beyond this period.
Although I believe that Israel would survive this battle while sustaining massive damage to her people and infrastructure, she will bear the brunt of the “free” world hatred because of their stance.
Comment by Ed D — March 5, 2009 @ 4:19 pm
Wall Street Journal Tells Obama: Get Serious on Iran Now
Comment by Ted Belman — March 5, 2009 @ 5:11 pm
Worst comes to worse we could take over American stores in vast warehouses just over the green line in Shomron. We could then dismantle all their spy facilities used against Israel. Reminds me to stock up on Iodine and potassium tablets just in case. I am either living in the safest place in the world or the most dangerous. Have to think on this some more.
Comment by yamit82 — March 5, 2009 @ 5:20 pm
Iran rebuffed US overtures
Ayatollah Khamenei, Iran’s highest authority, slammed Obama for continuing Bush’s policies toward Iran and continuing support for the Zionist state. Among the exceedingly polite Iranians, Khamenei’s speech amounts to a very rough rejection of Obama’s offer to negotiate.
Indeed, there is nothing to negotiate: Iran insists on its right to a nuclear bomb, which it will have very soon, and Obama did not even formulate incentives to woo the mullahs away from their pet project (probably no incentive can achieve that).
The battle of two illegal leaders is curious. On one hand, Obama could not have legally become the American president because of his dual citizenship at birth and probable birth in Kenya. On other hand, Khamenei rose to the helm only because Rafsanjani lied to the ayatollahs that Khomeini appointed him before dying.
Comment by yamit82 — March 5, 2009 @ 5:36 pm
Top Secret American Military Installations In Israel
Arutz7 News - January 28, 2004
A new book by an American military journalist and commentator reveals the extent of the US military presence on Israeli soil.
“Code Names,” by William M. Arkin, exposes information about at least five US Army bases at secret locations throughout the Jewish State, including one at Ben Gurion Airport and another in Herzliya Pituah. The book also provides a long list of code names describing joint military operations between Israel and America.
Arkin is an independent journalist and military commentator for NBC and a former intelligence analyst for US ground forces. A front-page story in “The New York Times,” based on one of the book’s revelations has given the book broad publicity and granted it wide legitimacy.
Late Republican Senator Jesse Helms used to call Israel “America’s aircraft carrier in the Middle East,” when explaining why the US viewed Israel as such a strategic ally, saying that the military foothold in the region offered by the Jewish State alone justified the military aid that the US grants Israel every year. The new revelations also act to weaken the argument for Israeli policy decisions based on “American pressure.”
Arkin claims that the officially “non-existent” sites across Israel contain $500 million worth of ammunition the United States keeps in Israel for wartime contingencies. The bases, called Sites 51, 53, 54, 55 and 56 don’t appear on any maps and their specific locations are classified and highly sensitive.
“It’s not just munitions,” Arkin wrote in the Washington Post before the release of his book. “The United States has ‘prepositioned’ vehicles, military equipment, even a 500-bed hospital, for US Marines, Special Forces, and Air Force fighter and bomber aircraft at at least six sites in Israel, all part of what is antiseptically described as ‘US-Israel strategic cooperation.’”
Israel is not the only country in the region to host US military bases, though. There are American military facilities in Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Oman, and the Gulf states, as well.
Comment by yamit82 — March 6, 2009 @ 4:14 am
U.S. Increases Intel Against Israel
Middle East Newsline - December 17, 2004
Israel angered by US espionage missions against the Jewish State; protests U.S. withholding critical security information…again. [J4JP]
LONDON [MENL] - The United States has increased intelligence operations against Israel as part of an effort to prevent a war in the Middle East.
Western diplomatic sources said that over the last two years the U.S. intelligence community has increased monitoring of Israel’s military and government. The sources said the move was ordered by the White House as part of an effort to prevent an escalation of the war with the Palestinians or a regional war that could begin with an Israeli attack on Syria.
“There’s been concern that Israel would pull a surprise on the United States with either an offensive against Hizbullah in Lebanon or a massive attack on the Gaza Strip,” a diplomatic source said. “Washington doesn’t want to be surprised and would rather know this information in advance and first hand.”
The sources said the result has been increased U.S. satellite monitoring of Israel to determine military movements, import and export of weapons, weapons tests and construction of housing in Israeli communities in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. They said the United States has also expanded the interception of signals communications from Israeli government and military facilities.
The U.S. effort was said to have been prompted by Israel’s air attack on a Palestinian base outside Damascus in 2003. The sources said the U.S. intelligence community, despite the Bush administration’s muted response, was alarmed by the Israeli attack and warned that this could mark a policy to undermine the regime of President Bashar Assad.
ael and the United States have been strained since the 2003 war in Iraq. U.S. officials have complained several times of violations of Israeli pledges regarding such issues as defense relations with China and aggressive Israeli information collection in the United States.
REMEMBER THE LIBERTY!!!!
On the other hand, Israel has asserted that the U.S. intelligence community was withholding critical intelligence in the Middle East, particularly from Iraq and Syria. The sources said CIA director George Tenet, who resigned earlier this year, expressed his distrust of Israel and ordered a restrained relationship with its intelligence community.
The diplomatic sources said Israel has not determined the mission of the U.S. submarine that operated off the coast of Haifa last month. They said one possible mission by the United States was to install sensors near the Israel Navy headquarters and other vital facilities.
Over the last decade, the U.S. Navy was said to have entered Israeli territorial waters as many as five times. In a show of pique, Israel’s military lifted a ban that had prevented the publication of previous violations of Israeli territorial waters while senior officials broadly hinted that the latest intruder was either a French or U.S. submarine.
“In the past, there was more reticence by the United States to enter Israel’s waters and more explanation of why they did so,” a diplomatic source said. “There’s less willingess to do that today.”
Comment by yamit82 — March 6, 2009 @ 4:20 am
US Presses Israel to Cancel Chinese Projects
Middle East News Line - December 23, 2004
WASHINGTON [MENL] — The Bush administration has launched a drive to pressure Israel to cancel or abandon a series of military projects in China.
Israeli and U.S. officials said the Defense Department, supported by the White House, has relayed a series of demands meant to significantly reduce Israeli military projects in China. The Pentagon effort also sought to halt Israeli negotiations with China on new systems for Beijing.
“For years, the administration and Congress have been looking for a solid Israeli link with Chinese arms programs,” a U.S. official said. “The administration has found it and now wants to roll back Israeli defense relations with China.”
The Pentagon campaign has focused on the cancellation of Israel’s Harpy armed unmanned aerial vehicle program as well as the severing of negotiations for the Heron UAV for China. Officials said the Pentagon has demanded that unidentified command and control projects for China also be terminated.
The officials said the U.S. demand would, in effect, terminate Israel’s defense relations with Beijing. They said the Pentagon effort was meant to force China to switch suppliers after Beijing would conclude that Israel could no longer honor military or security contracts.
“The effort is not only about Israel,” another official said. “The pressure that we bring on Israel will deter the European Union from becoming military suppliers of China.”
On Dec. 17, the White House urged Israel and the European Union to take “a responsible approach” regarding the sale of defense equipment and technology to China. A White House statement said the United States has approached both Israel and the EU out of concern that either would sell defense equipment to China.
“We have long expressed our concerns about the sale of defense equipment and technology to China,” the White House said. “We continue to raise those concerns with our friends and allies and others, and look for them to take a responsible approach.”
Officials said China has sent an unspecified number of Harpy UAVs to Israel for overhaul or upgrade. They said the Pentagon has demanded that Israel’s Defense Ministry refuse to return the Harpy platforms.
The Pentagon demand would comprise a violation of Israel’s decade-old contract with Beijing, the officials said. But they said the administration could not allow China to deploy the Harpy UAVs for any attack on Taiwan or nearby U.S. forces.
The United States has also demanded that Israel Aircraft Industries terminate contacts with China for the proposed sale of the Heron. The Heron has been deemed a strategic long-range UAV and officials said the platform was demonstrated for China over the last year.
Officials said IAI also briefed Chinese military commanders and defense officials in Beijing on the Heron. IAI, Israel’s largest defense contractor, also manufactures the Harpy as well as the Phalon airborne early-warning aircraft.
In 2000, the United States pressured Israel to suspend the sale of at least one Phalcon AEW system to China. Four years later, IAI sold three Phalcon systems to India in a $1.1 billion deal.
The Pentagon demands on Israel appear to stem from recommendations issued by the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission, a panel mandated by Congress. In its 2004 report, the commission called on the United States to “restrict foreign defense contractors who sell sensitive military-use technology or weapons systems to China from participating in U.S. defense-related cooperative research, development, and production programs.” The United States has been one of IAI’s leading markets.
The commission also recommended that Congress request the Pentagon to provide a comprehensive annual report to Congress on foreign military sales to China, “particularly from Russia and Israel.” The EU was not cited.
Israeli officials said the Defense Ministry has not banned local defense contractors from marketing non-lethal systems and platforms in China. In a policy that has sparked opposition within the government, the Defense Ministry has aimed to seek U.S. approval for Chinese defense deals only after a commitment by Beijing to order the Israeli equipment.
“These sales [to China] have not only hurt our relations with the United States, but they have hurt defense relations with other Asian nations, particularly India and Japan,” an Israeli defense source said. “After all, India has also purchased the Heron.” Israeli and U.S. officials agreed that Israel’s continued defense relations with China has angered both senior Pentagon officials as well key members of the House of Representatives. They said many of these Americans have lost their trust in Israeli defense officials.
“Some of these Pentagon officials are extremely pro-Israel,” an official said. “Now, they can’t even look at some of the people in the [Israeli] Defense Ministry who treat the Americans as idiots.”
Yoram Ettinger, a former Israeli consul-general with close ties to the Bush administration, said Jerusalem and Washington must draft a long-term accord that would guide Israeli military exports. Ettinger said such an arrangement would be based on a guaranteed level of U.S. military aid to and defense research and development projects with Israel.
“The key would be to ensure mutual national interests, maintaining transparency and ensuring Israel’s qualitative edge,” Ettinger said.
With Friends Like This…..?
Comment by yamit82 — March 6, 2009 @ 4:29 am
U.S., Israel Still At Odds Over China Arms Sale, Pentagon Spy
Christian Science Monitor - July 29, 2005
Israeli Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz cancelled a recent trip to Washington over new US demands that it be allowed to oversee Israeli arms exports. Newsday reported Thursday that the new US demands are part of growing crisis over Israeli arms sales to China, according to Israeli officials.
Israeli and US officials have been working on negotiations about the weapons shipments, which had originally led to the US imposing sanctions on Israel, including “halting cooperation on several sensitive projects and freezing delivery of some military equipment. The US opposes the Harpy parts sale on the grounds it would upgrade China’s anti-radar aircraft.”
Mr. Mofaz was scheduled to come to Washington to work out the final details on an agreement that would have put new restrictions on Israeli arms sales to certain countries like China, but the trip was put on hold when the US also demanded a written apology signed by Mofaz, and that the Israeli parliament, the Knesset, pass new laws within 18 months that would tighten “oversight of military exports.” Ha’aretz, which broke the story of the new US demands on Wednesday, reported that Israel believed that tensions between the two countries were going to lessen after the Mofaz trip to Washington. But the new demands, according to Ha’aretz, are “an indirect way” way to reject the request by the Israeli defense minister to end the crisis and lift the sanctions, which “have the potential to do serious harm to Israel’s defense industries and air force.”
The US is also apparently angry that media reports appear whenever the Israeli delegations leaves for talks in the US. The US sees the meetings as defense briefings, while Israeli media reports the meetings as talks to end the “crisis” over the Israel-China arms deals.
In an analysis for Ha’aretz Friday, Ze’ev Schiff, writes that the disagreement between the US and Israel is “a serious crisis that has spilled over into political and economic spheres,” and signals a “crisis of confidence.” Mr. Schiff writes that the important strategic dialogue between tghe two countries has “slowly evaporated over the past two years…”
The American side is broadcasting that it has been burned by Israel several times, and this time it has decided to be firm. Because they feel affronted, they are not taking into account the political situation in Israel, and are trying to dictate to the Knesset, in an insulting manner, a timetable for its decisions. An agreement is meant to end a crisis, and not to force a friendly nation to agree to be punished in stages. Even a banana republic would not sign such an agreement.
On the other hand, it is clear that the supervision of arms exports from Israel is deficient, and rests entirely in the hands of the security establishment. The political leadership is barely involved. The interministerial connection is defective, and even today the Defense Ministry does not keep the Foreign Ministry informed of the details of the negotiations with the Americans. Israeli custom officials do not have instructions regarding the export of products that are likely to be used for military purposes as well. Even without American pressure, the time has come to introduce order into defense exports from Israel.
Meanwhile, Arutz Sheva reported Thursday the FBI has requested an interview with a senior member of Israel’s embassy in the Washington as part of the ongoing investigation into the actions of a Defense Department anaylyst and employees of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC). (The two men involved in the case have left AIPAC.)
As that crisis snowballs, the FBI investigation of AIPAC seems to be turning toward employees of Israel’s US Embassy. The FBI is demanding that Naor Gilon, head of the embassy’s political department, be interrogated in connection to the case of Pentagon Iran expert Lawrence Franklin, who was caught in an FBI sting operation passing on classified material relating to Israeli security.
Embassy officials usually have immunity and are not allowed to be investigated by foreign countries regarding issues related to their work. Israel has offered the FBI the possibility that Gilon would respond to questions in writing. The FBI request indicates that Israel is now suspected of being involved in the Franklin case, which until now was portrayed as involving only the AIPAC Israel lobby group.
The whole exercise is too hurt Israeli suppliers who when head to head are hurting American arms exports. America at least seems to protect her own!
Comment by yamit82 — March 6, 2009 @ 4:36 am
Note: this and other I just posted were initiated under our good and best ever American Presidential Friend “Bush”! Now that we have a not so friendly president in the White house, should we expect better?
Comment by yamit82 — March 6, 2009 @ 4:41 am
Information on the Pollard Case
1. The Facts of the Pollard Case - STRONGLY RECOMMENDED!
http://www.jonathanpollard.org/info.htm
Comment by yamit82 — March 6, 2009 @ 4:44 am
Rongrand
Greater minds than me have tried answer why antisemitism
1. Ted´s article on Jesus. Both Christianitity and Islam are in competition with Judaism. Must be a factor.
2. Class society. Poverty and backwardness. Destitution of human spirit under slave, then feudal, then capitalism. Ignorance is breeding ground for prejudice.
3. Antisemitism not the only prejudice. But is the universal hatred. Conor Cruise O´Brien said “antisemitism is a light sleeper”
This might be relevant
http://www.hirhome.com/israel/crux01a.pdf
Comment by Felix Quigley — March 6, 2009 @ 10:30 am
Yamit82
Hess is extremely relevant. It is also relevant that it was myself, a Trotskyist, who first introduced Hess to you about 2 years ago.
But that is fine. This is not a competition.
The Pollard issue is very important and links up with “Blowback” by Christopher Simpson
Which we are working on on
http://www.4international.wordpress.com
Comment by Felix Quigley — March 6, 2009 @ 10:34 am
Yamit82
Can you clarify
Dorit Beinisch took over from that traitor Barak as Pres of High Court.
He wrote this on farewell
This is very questionable sentiment.
Since when did justice of your way ever guarantee that you would win.
eg a soccer team may play very beautiful football and be very gentlemanly. This does not guarantee a victory only that you will be liked (maybe)
Dorit took over from this guy and she is of the same mentality.
Now it seems that Netanyahu is going with Lieberman and Lieberman has his own man for the Supreme Court.
Perhaps under the surface Israel knows the test that lies ahead and getting rid of Dorit may be part of the preparation.
Or in other words the game against Iran is not going to be a clean game. But Netanyahu and Lieberman are saying WIN IT ANYWAY
PERHAPS A GOOD PLACE TO START THE WAR WITHT HE REV GUARDS IS RIGHT HERE
Comment by Felix Quigley — March 6, 2009 @ 11:09 am
I understand that it would be difficult to become independant from the the US, even if there is a desire to do so; however, since the US could and, and would, if Israel attacks Iran, refuse to rearm Israel with needed equipment and weapons.
Israel should act swiftly to build plants in the Negev for producing these arms such as bomb casings, explosives, rocketry and other vital equipment.
It is my opinion that Obama would not shed a single tear to see Israel destroyed. Hillary, in her visit, showed the same disdain and contempt of Israel.
Brothers and sisters, I believe that we are in this by ourselves.
Comment by Ed D — March 6, 2009 @ 12:17 pm
Ed I don’t think so, I believe the American public would be outraged if the Administration would refuse to rearm Israel. I don’t think the US has any choice other than to support Israel. Just think for a minute, when called upon by a democracy did the US ever refuse. How would they look if they refused to aid Israel when in fact Israel would be doing not only the US but the whole free world one big favor.
Obama I imagine believes he can win Iran over with flowers and candy and being very diplomatic.
Look, please excuse my language but, if those bastards in the Obama administration had any brains they would give the green light and join in the mission.
Comment by rongrand — March 6, 2009 @ 12:38 pm
rongrand; We are being manipulated into a position of either capitulate to American interests or else and what that or else will be we can only speculate but the confrontation is all but inevitable. Seems America has gotten used to a pliable lapdog with much justification but I hope even a BB will have some red lines.
US Afghan parley likely to include Iran
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1236269357602&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
The committee heard testimony from two former US national security advisers, Zbigniew Brzezinski, who served under Jimmy Carter, and Brent Scowcroft, who worked for George H.W. Bush.
Brzezinski began by stressing actions that US shouldn’t take, to avoid prejudicing the negotiations, arguing against ratcheting up sanctions, threatening the use of force, speaking of regime change and setting deadlines for the negotiations, unless the aim was for the talks to break down and for America to be able to blame that breakdown on Iranian intransigence.
Accordingly, he criticized a story in Haaretz this week that said Israel told Clinton to impose a time frame on talks for them to have impact.
“We should be very careful not to become susceptible to interested parties” and their policies on Iran, he warned.
The US, Brzezinski maintained, faced more of an existential threat from the Soviet arsenal when he was in the White House, in the 1970s, than Israel did now, and deterrence proved effective in that case.
Both Brzezinski and Scowcroft agreed that the biggest threat came not from Iran acquiring a nuclear weapon but from the impetus such an acquisition would give to a regional nuclear arms race.
Many pro-Israel figures have assailed Brzezinski and Scowcroft for their views on the Middle East, and the choice to invite the two to testify did not sit well with several activists.
“The choice of Brzezinski and Scowcroft sent up two yellow flags when I heard they were given such prominence,” one Jewish leader said of Thursday’s hearing. “When Brzezinski used his short opening statement to say Secretary of State Hillary Clinton should be cautious about listening to Israel’s ideas, the red flag really went up. After all, Israel knows an awful lot about Iran and what they do that’s against the interest of peace.”
Comment by yamit82 — March 6, 2009 @ 2:19 pm
Felix you are mistaken re: Hess I brought him up for your ref; on a similar thread to which you never replied and if so then somehow I missed it. My point with Hess that although a socialist to the end his dialectic view is primary as opposed to materialism. He left the communists after twenty years and returned to Judaism and the Jewish people and while Herzl had more of an impact Hess might actually be called the father of modern political Zionism.. Read Rome and Jerusalem, it’s a good read and you might even gain some insight to what you seem to be lacking of today.
Found this article in JP today and it’s dam good: I suggest you also browse the talkback comments to this article, you might learn something here as well.
rated 4.38 by 128 people | Top Rated Articles [?]
The economy, terrorism and national defense are priorities for every country. But Israel adds an essential factor: historical memory.
Egypt has its pyramids; Rome has its Colosseum; Athens has its Acropolis - but, citizens of a modern state, the native populations feel little or no connection to their ancient cultures; their archeological sites are for tourists.
Jews, however, regard historical sites as confirmations of biblical references, providing intimate emotional links between present and past. Historical sites are bonds of identity, the reason that Jews are drawn to Israel, despite the difficulties, and why they struggle to survive in their homeland. Life may be more comfortable in other places; here, from the time of the Bible to modern times, it’s where much of Jewish history happened. That is why this country is so meaningful.
Confirmed by history, each new archeological discovery is a thrilling reminder of where and how Jews lived thousands of years ago. As if “beamed down,” we are transported into that ancient world which lives again through us. The return of the Jewish people to Israel, the process of ingathering from around the world, the rebuilding and flourishing of a state is nothing less than a renaissance of the Jewish people.
But, as much as we are proud of our accomplishments, it fuels the enmity of our enemies. That our historical and legal claim to Eretz Yisrael is disputed by those who deny Israel’s right to exist is understandable. Recognition of any part of that claim would undermine any alternative (Palestinian/Syrian) national/historic rights. Yet, some Jews, including Israelis, propose the abandonment of Judea and Samaria, the heartland of Jewish history, to form a second Palestinian state, which would be, of course, terror-based and Judenrein.
DENYING OUR sovereignty over any area of our ancient homeland negates our historic claims and our country’s legal right to exist in any portion of its homeland. If it’s “the occupation,” then what’s the difference between Tel Aviv and “the settlements,” except location? And what makes one place holier than another? There is no authentic “Palestinian” archeology because there never was a coherent “Palestinian” ethnic, cultural or social group. Jews who lived in British Mandate Palestine used the term as a political reference; Arabs did not.
That Israel is a leader in high-tech, medicine and sciences, a nominally democratic country committed to the principles of egalitarianism, social and cultural freedom, a bastion of Western values is very nice; these are not, however, a reason to exist.
The issue is not simply over territory, or sovereignty, or the legal rights of the Jewish people in Eretz Yisrael, but to create a uniquely Jewish civilization.
That challenge must be defined, grounded in Jewish history, tradition and culture. Approached from the perspective of peoplehood, and contemporary political expediency, such efforts are doomed to irrelevancy.
To deny or distance oneself from one’s history is self-rejection; to embrace one’s history is affirmation. The great irony in the current debate over the nature of Zionism is that those who argue for secularism deny the legacy of the past; those who argue for a Torah-based state are in danger of exclusivity.
Attacked from all sides, physically by Arab and Muslim countries, and rhetorically by much of the international community, the UN and many NGOs, Israel’s struggle as a nation is rooted in its connection to an authentic revealed history and its adherence to Torah values. Paradoxically, both religious and secular Zionism thrust Jews toward an engagement with history centered in the Land of Israel. Both cling to the uniqueness of Jewish history and it is precisely this link between the Jewish people, the Land of Israel and Torah that makes Zionism different from all other nationalisms. Israel’s rebirth and flourishing prove that we are not at the end of history, but rather its continuing relevance, meaning and hope for all mankind.
The writer, a former assistant professor of history, is a writer and journalist living in Jerusalem. moshedan@netvision.net.il
Comment by yamit82 — March 6, 2009 @ 2:34 pm
Not exactly, Russia was smart and knew the consequences. Iran is a country run by religious fanaticals who cannot be trusted. How many Russian suicide bombers do you hear of?
Besides, I don’t trust the Russians right now and I have this feeling that they could be teaming up with Iran. They are in pretty deep with the Iranians with their nuclear development. Why provide assistance to a potential enemy. Besides what is the major concern over the planned missle defense system in Eurpoe?
Putin, you can take the boy out of the KGB but can you take the KGB out of the boy. So far it doesn’t appear so.
Comment by rongrand — March 6, 2009 @ 2:58 pm
Yamit : After attempting to read your posts 30, 31, 32, I am reminded of what was said of Tolstoy,
Few people read Tolstoy today because his works are so lengthy.
You are definitely no Tolstoy.
PITHY YOU CAN’T BE PITHY.
Comment by h peskin — March 6, 2009 @ 11:48 pm
Peskin since your limited retention span is that of a snail I expect no more from you. You are on the sound byte level, anything more than two conjugated sentences forces you to the refrigerator for snacks. Re: Tolstoy? Classic comics if they still exist were created for those like you. few words many pictures(in color) and some general idea of the subject. On second thought they were even too wordy for you as well. Try You Tube.
Comment by yamit82 — March 7, 2009 @ 1:39 am
Peskin
PITHY YOU CAN’T BE PITHY.
YOU WANT PITHY? I’ll give you Pithy!!
Suck Gas!
suggested reading: “Le Misanthrope” The classic comic book might be still available at Amazon.
Comment by yamit82 — March 7, 2009 @ 1:52 am
Re: #33
I am not happy about Israel selling military technology to China.
Then again, our own President, Bill Clinton, allowed the sale of missile technology to China.
Comment by Bill Levinson — March 7, 2009 @ 2:09 am
Why not they own a good portion of American debt and supply her with most of Americas basic sundries. They will get the technology one way or another so why not make a profit out of it. They are flying their version of the Israeli developed Lavi fighter aircraft, that America killed. In any event they will replace eventually America as the worlds dominant economic and military power.
Comment by yamit82 — March 7, 2009 @ 3:34 am
Israel actually fared better in 1967 than in 1973 — PR-wise, military-wise, you name it. It seems that the bolder and more aggressive Israel is, the better she fares. The last thing Israel needs, is to attack Iran Gaza style — knocking out a target here and a target there, then withdrawing. Iran will eventually recover, and Israel will be declared the loser. If Israel uses nukes, this will not happen. Is Israel willing to use nukes? The US did in 1945, and came out of it smelling like a rose.
Comment by BlandOatmeal — March 7, 2009 @ 4:45 am
Yamit82
Well certainly I was and am well aware of the position of Hess and the position of Marx and I cannot be bothered to look up the exchange that lodges in my memory
So the centre of the post as usual on Israpundit has been strayed from with attacks on communism, on China, I just await an attack on the deceased Milosevic, not to mention a renewed defence of the Fascist Saakashvili for destroying the Jewish quarter in the capital of Ossetia which took place here to the disgrace of Israpundit.
The centre of Ted´s post is the coming attack on Iranian Nuclear by Israel and the isolation of Israel. Especially what needs to be done as led into by comment by Fred above.
What is your position on this Yamit82? In concrete terms what needs to be done by Ted, Pamela et al in American blogs and groups in order to prevent Israel being isolated. Also in Europe the same rules apply and to some extent in Israel also.
Comment by Felix Quigley — March 7, 2009 @ 5:23 am
I may be a minority of one here but I am an advocate for Jewish and Israeli Isolation. By isolation I mean primarily diplomatic. Economically after a lot of adjustments and learning new rules we will do OK and after a short length of time the nations who break with us will come begging at the door to be let back in. In the interim Israel and world Jewry need the shock treatment to begin to do what they should have always done. That said the cold turkey cure is bound to be painful and create I am sure many unforeseen developments both good and bad. how we adjust and deal with these will determine our future.
Predicting Obama’s Presidency
langeKit Lange is an Air Force veteran and military writer. Her blog, EuphoricReality.com, was named as one of the top 10 milblogs of the year.
My Predictions for the New Obama “Presidency”.
Now that America has shown us all that affirmative action even works in politics, I’ve compiled a list of things that you can probably expect to happen. These predictions are 80% gleaned from information all of us have access to, and 15% gut instinct based on many years of research, historical study, and being glued to current affairs. The other 5% is just anger at my countrymen’s stupidity–I admit it.
http://www.israpundit.com/2008/?p=8607#more-8607
Jan. 27, 2009
Comment by yamit82 — March 7, 2009 @ 7:27 am
email rec’d
Comment by Ted Belman — March 7, 2009 @ 5:07 pm
It’s so easy , attack the people who do this to you! Shimon peres is a putz supreme and so is Aron barack and ehud Olmert, and so on and and so on, million upon million aires, useless people who call themselves jews! Seinfeld!
Comment by tov — March 8, 2009 @ 12:41 am
Islam And The West Accelerated Links…
Israpundit on Israel, an attack on Iran and the Middle East peace process….
Trackback by Islam And The West — March 8, 2009 @ 8:48 am
Yamit82
As usual the struggle over minor details of words assumes vital importance
1. Israel must be independent. No question! But especially from the influence of the USW ruling elite.
2. But Israel must not become isolated and it does not have to be. If Israel is isolated it will be destroyed just as Poland was destroyed by the Nazis.
That is the implication in the comment above by Fred. He is focussed upon 1. the reality that Israel has no alternative but to attack Iran, it does not have a choice, everybody wishes that this were not so, but if you genuinely support Israel you have to reach that conclusion and 2. he is trying to imagine what the outcome of that may be, and so what this outcome tells us we must do, that is especially in Europe and in America. Fred´s is a very important contribution which canot be settled here by words, but has the implication of a practice
You Yamit82 really do talk too much. With you this is a kind of an ailment and I do not mean this totally disrespectfully, because you have got your strengths.
But your approach to politics leads to paralysis. You are not alone in this.
As I stated above there are millions of ordinary American folk who are bursting to be ont
the side of Israel and the Jews. But there is a serious issue of leadership.
In a comment above I made a reference to Austria, it should have been Prussia. That is in reference to the quarrel which Marx had with Bruno Bauer. This quarrel is much misunderstood.
Comment by Felix Quigley — March 9, 2009 @ 10:50 am
We need the isolation to convince all here that we have to assert our independence if not y our own free will then to have it forced upon us by having what we like to call here ayn brerah (no Choice) As long as Israels leadership doesn’t matter who believes we cannot exist without such self delusional concepts we will not do what we need to do in our own national and strategic interests. We will continue to abandon our own sovereignty to those like America. No current leader and I know of no others will stand up to America or even the EU unless forced to do so. I believe your item # 1 is totally dependent on the opposit of your postulate in #2
Who do you propose are those who would and could destroy us? Those who can are not necessaries those who would and visa versa.
U.S. Army document describes Israel as ‘a nuclear power’
By Amir Oren http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1069303.html
In a rare breach of official American adherence to Israel’s policy of nuclear ambiguity, the U.S. military is terming Israel “a nuclear power” on a par with Russia, China, India, Pakistan and North Korea, all of which have declared their nuclear weapon status, and ahead of “nuclear threshold powers” Japan, South Korea and Taiwan, and the “emerging” Iran.
There is no country beyond our nuclear reach in the world and all of your examples like Poland and Serbia, only go to prove my point in that there is no one to rely upon or trust when it comes to our own welfare and continued existence. No one! From my experience and from history our so called friends will at most be passive and cry Borscht over dead Jews after the fact, might even contribute to new Holocaust Museums to commemorate our demise. The world loves dead Jews and they even evince for a while some sympathy but then the themes switch from Jewish death to all the worlds human suffering and after a time even the Jews are forgotten and their plight downgraded to culturally politically correct relativism.
Felix as long as we have the power to take a good part of mankind with us and at the very least foster a near stone age existence to those who might survive, I would offer the following advice. Countries and organizations who want to hurt us economically can try and might even succeed, we will survive such a contingency maybe even produce credible leaders, but believe me that even if the USA and or Russia were to attack us within a few minutes they would cease to exist as a viable entity. This is the X factor, our still unused fear factor under employed, we try to be liked which is it seems futile. I go for not being liked but as the cause of sleepless nights by every nation in the world who would do us harm or attempt to sacrifice us to their Moloch. You think I talk too much? maybe I do but there is a difference between us, I place no faith in mankind or the unwashed mob. I am a G-d fearing realist and you are an Atheist who believes in fantasies. You believe in the unwashed mob. Go for it!!! The mob will disappoint and let you down every time. No spirituality in them is there? Just wants and individual needs as they perceive them.
Reconsidering Israel’s nuclear ambiguity
By Louis Rene Beres
Tags: iran, israel, netanyahu
Benjamin Netanyahu has already indicated that Iranian nuclearization is issue number one. Mr. Netanyahu also must understand that Israel’s own nuclear doctrine will have to adapt. A core element of this adaptation should concern Israel’s nuclear ambiguity. Jerusalem’s nuclear policy has always been to keep Israel’s presumed nuclear capabilities quietly in the “basement.” Now, the new prime minister will have to decide if it may soon be time for some sort of disclosure. This is because an ambiguous nuclear deterrent may not work indefinitely.
Israel’s nuclear ambiguity has done little to deter “ordinary” conventional enemy aggressions or acts of terror. It has succeeded in keeping the country’s enemies from mounting existential attacks. But certain changes in strategic doctrine could be necessary.
Oblivious to the call for meaningful sanctions by a plainly impotent “international community,” Tehran continues to “go nuclear.” Unless there is a prompt, comprehensive and sustained preemptive strike against Iran’s developing nuclear assets and infrastructures, an act of “anticipatory self-defense” under international law, Israel will face an openly genocidal nuclear Iran. Still, the prospect of such legally permissible defensive strikes is now very low, and Israel will likely have to prepare to secure itself against a nuclear Iran with both ballistic missile defense (Arrow/Hetz) and improved nuclear deterrence.
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Prime Minister-designate Netanyahu will understand that adequate deterrence of Iran could soon require some release of pertinent Israeli nuclear details. Concerning these details, less rather than more Israeli nuclear secrecy could be required. What will now need to be determined is the precise extent and subtlety with which Israel should communicate its nuclear positions, intentions and capabilities to Iran, and certain others.
The rationale for any nuclear disclosure would not lie in expressing the obvious. Instead, it would rest on the presumption that nuclear weapons attributed to Israel can serve Israel’s security by communicating certain military capabilities and intentions. The form and extent of any strategic disclosure could be more critical than before because the new president of the United States seems determined to proceed with a one-sided “peace process.”
Israel’s state enemies - especially Iran, Egypt and Syria - will likely continue to enlarge and refine both their conventional and unconventional military capabilities. In one case, Mr. Ahmadinejad could conceivably cast aside all of the usual considerations of rational behavior. Were this to happen, the Islamic Republic of Iran could effectively become a nuclear suicide-bomber in macrocosm.
To protect against enemy strikes, particularly those attacks that could carry intolerable costs, Mr. Netanyahu should exploit every relevant aspect and function of Israel’s own presumed nuclear arsenal, if indeed it does have these weapons, and doctrine. The success of his efforts will depend not only on its particular choice of targeting doctrine (”counterforce” or “counter city”), but also upon the extent to which this key choice is made known in advance. Before enemies can be deterred from launching first strikes against Israel, and before they can be deterred from launching retaliatory attacks following any Israeli preemption, it may not be enough to assume only that Israel has the Bomb. These enemies may also need to recognize that nuclear weapons attributed to Israel are sufficiently invulnerable to such attacks, and that they are pointed directly at high-value population targets.
Removing the presumed bomb from Israel’s basement could enhance Israel’s nuclear deterrence to the extent that it would heighten enemy perceptions of secure and capable Israeli nuclear forces. Such a calculated end to deliberate ambiguity could also underscore Israel’s willingness to use these nuclear forces in reprisal for certain enemy first-strike and retaliatory attacks.
For now, as Mr. Netanyahu surely knows, Israel’s nuclear capabilities should remain ambiguous. But soon - at the very moment that Iran is discovered to be close to completing its own nuclear weapons capability - the Jewish State should put a prompt end to deliberate nuclear ambiguity.
Prime Minister-designate Netanyahu already understands that there could never be any reliable peace with a nuclear Iran. But if neither Israel nor the United States will undertake preemptive destruction of Iran’s nearlycompleted nuclear program, Israel will have to take its own bomb out of the “basement.” Such an essential end to deliberate nuclear ambiguity may still not be sufficient to save Israel from an eventual nuclear war with Iran, but it would surely be better than continuing with a no longer viable policy of protracted uncertainty.
The author was chair of Project Daniel. He is Professor of International Law at Purdue University and the author of many major books and articles on nuclear strategy and nuclear war.
Comment by yamit82 — March 9, 2009 @ 12:14 pm
U.S. turns up heat on Israel over settlements
By Barak Ravid, Haaretz Correspondent
Tags: Barack Obama, Israel News
Israel is under increased pressure from the United States over settlement construction. In the past month, since Barack Obama was sworn in as U.S. president, Israel has received four official complaints from members of the new administration regarding various issues linked to West Bank settlements.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1069314.html
Netanyahu to U.S. envoy: I’ll honor Israel’s previous commitments
In N Ireland ,IRA did not want to drive Englishmen into the sea
The IRA would have been delighted if Britain withdrew from Northern Ireland like Israel withdrew from Gaza.
Comment by yamit82 — March 9, 2009 @ 12:47 pm
Syrian track means dead end
Palestinian rocket attacks necessitated Israeli war on Gaza, which necessitated aid to Gaza, which necessitated Fatah-Hamas unity government, which rejects Israel - and that put the peace process on hold. More importantly, even moderate leftists in Israel are disillusioned with peace prospects, and no Knesset coalition can realistically garner public support for major territorial concessions to Arabs.
Just as two decades ago, which Palestinian track firmly stalled, the American administration guides us to capitulate to the defeated Syrian aggressor. To that end, American diplomatic reps humiliatingly visited Syria (rather than vice versa) and pledged Israeli compliance.
Assad would love to gain international legitimacy by being courted by America, but there is little that America can do for him. Israeli support for holding the Golan Heights is universal: three generations used to think of the mountains as Jewish, as indeed the biblical Bashan is. Hatred of Syrians, our 4,000-year enemies, seems inbuilt in Jews. Severe drought makes Syrian access to Lake Kineret still more problematic. No Israeli government can cede the Golan Heights in near future - though, like the Sinai and Gush Katif examples show, things change here for the worse very quickly.
America cannot deliver Lebanon to Syria, and no way Assad would refuse the Greater Syria notion. Indeed, America will be clashing with Syria on Lebanon, if only diplomatically.
Syrians also want weapons, maybe for no reason. That desire pushes them to Russians for supply and to Iranians for financing. America can neither provide Syria with weapons, nor with military aid.
Syria cannot abandon its support for Hamas, as it brings Assad a serious posture vis-a-vis Mubarak, troubled by Gaza.
America cannot offer Syria any significant economic aid before it signs peace with Israel, which is not soon, and Assad cannot suspend his Russian and Iranian relations for American remote promises.
Comment by yamit82 — March 9, 2009 @ 1:07 pm
Yamit:
Yamit
I read all your comments and marvel at your rhetorical skills. You are a great debater. I would go further and state without fear of contradiction that you are a masterdebater. I believe you have been a masterdebater since your puberty. And you will continue to be a masterdebater until your final days on earth. Parry and thrust,parry and thrust, all night long.
Please consider that as a great compliment.
Comment by h peskin — March 9, 2009 @ 8:18 pm
A Peskin Story!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvV21DW0kYc
thrust,parry and thrust, all night long.
But you keep loosing.
Comment by yamit82 — March 10, 2009 @ 4:58 am
On second thought maybe peskin has been mostly right?
I think he will continue to be right unless we start to at least become as good as the Arabs.
In more than a century of the Zionist enterprise, Arabs made no concessions while the Jews gave way continuously. Triumphant return to the Promised Land immediately degenerated into buying land from Arabs; that’s not what Joshua ben Nun did. When the Ottomans titled unused land in the coastal plains, Arab notables rather than Jews got it through legal machinations; speak of Jewish lawyers and simpleton Arabs. Jews settled mostly the lowlands without significant Arab presence, drained marshes and cultivated sand dunes instead of claiming (taking) the land from aborigines. Jews did not significantly protest when the British stole most of the land they guaranteed us in return for our support in WWI and established Jordanian princeling in two-thirds of Palestine. Jews accepted yet another partition in 1947 which created a second Palestinian state beside Jordan. Jews won every war with Egypt but returned Sinai, a place where Hebrews received the law which molded them into a nation and a place of critical strategic importance to Israel. Jews prevailed in every conflict against Syria and now all but accepted to return the strategically indispensable Golan Heights. Palestinians – an insignificant enemy – pressed Israel for sweeping concessions even while they keep shelling Jewish towns. The Arabs did not give way on a single issue.
Arabs protested Jewish settlement of Palestine; most Jews were unsympathetic to Zionist idea. Arabs always rejected massive Jewish presence while Zionist leaders implored Arabs to stay in the Jewish state. Sadat pressed Begin to evacuate Jewish towns from Sinai; Sharon concurred then and demolished Jewish villages in Gaza years later. Arabs refuse to accept Jews in their countries, but successfully insist that swarms of Arabs be citizens of the Jewish state.
The Arabs consider the land rightfully theirs and fight for it. Smart and critical Jews rejected religion and doubt their right to the land. The balance of will favors the righteous.
Comment by yamit82 — March 10, 2009 @ 10:05 am
Yamit82
What are you yamit 82? You are part of mankind just as the Jewish people are part of mankind. What makes you think you or the Jews are any different.
We have all developed out of a strain of African apes.
You do not want to face up to hard facts and want to construct in your head a different history of man.
Nor can you see the grandeur in what is man. You are a nihilist at bottom.
Comment by Felix Quigley — March 10, 2009 @ 10:10 am
And you keep missing the big picture Yamit82 and are as much a loser as is Peskin who in the end is just a collaborationist with whatever is the status quo at any time, as is Ted Belman and Bill Narvey.
Comment by Felix Quigley — March 10, 2009 @ 10:13 am
You quoted this pessimistic woman to me a while back and it sure is not accidental because that is the essence of your religious drive. I have always noticed how religious people always like a big tragedy, then they can come along with their oi9ntment afterwards, and anoint us all, us poor earthly humans.
That is the only kind of isolation that Yamit82 offers the great Jewish people, the isolation of the grave.
So I had a look at Yamit82´s very pretty woman friend “Kit” but a woman mired in her pessimism. A PESSIMISM JUST LIKE YAMIT82´S DEATH WISH FOR THE JEWS
LANGE WROTE:
Predicting Obama’s Presidency
Kit Lange is an Air Force veteran and military writer. Her blog, EuphoricReality.com, was named as one of the top 10 milblogs of the year.
My Predictions for the New Obama “Now that America has shown us all that affirmative action even works in politics, I’ve compiled a list of things that you can probably expect to happen. These predictions are 80% gleaned from information all of us have access to, and 15% gut instinct based on many years of research, historical study, and being glued to current affairs. The other 5% is just anger at my countrymen’s stupidity–I admit it.
Presidency”.
What is she saying here…
1. the US is no longer going to support Israel. Well it never did. That is the first misconception
2. So then her basic premise falls down
3. Lange is a typical bourgeois commentator. It really is a crock of shit actually.
This is where she gets herself all screwed up
4. Actually Lange there are two peoples in America. There is the ruling elite and there is the working class
5. So Lange starts off with an untruth, that the US elite are the friends of the Jews, and of Israel.
6. From there Lange ends up in a deep depression although I am sure she will get out of it
7. And does not see that with the US elite showing its true hatred for the Jews, you know like giving 5 billions to Hamas, and attacking Israel non stop, that the hundreds of millions of ordinary Americans can be won to the cause of Israel
So we say to Lange stuff your pessimism. It only shows your own political bankruptcy.
That is why the reactionary Yamit82, who calls himself a Jew, oh what a Power Jew is Yamit82, picked up on Lange.
They have everything in common.
Comment by Felix Quigley — March 10, 2009 @ 10:22 am
A Peskin story continued:
On second thought maybe peskin has been mostly right?
I think he will continue to be right unless we start to at least become as good as the Arabs.
In more than a century of the Zionist enterprise, Arabs made no concessions while the Jews gave way continuously. Triumphant return to the Promised Land immediately degenerated into buying land from Arabs; that’s not what Joshua ben Nun did. When the Ottomans titled unused land in the coastal plains, Arab notables rather than Jews got it through legal machinations; speak of Jewish lawyers and simpleton Arabs. Jews settled mostly the lowlands without significant Arab presence, drained marshes and cultivated sand dunes instead of claiming (taking) the land from aborigines. Jews did not significantly protest when the British stole most of the land they guaranteed us in return for our support in WWI and established Jordanian princeling in two-thirds of Palestine. Jews accepted yet another partition in 1947 which created a second Palestinian state beside Jordan. Jews won every war with Egypt but returned Sinai, a place where Hebrews received the law which molded them into a nation and a place of critical strategic importance to Israel. Jews prevailed in every conflict against Syria and now all but accepted to return the strategically indispensable Golan Heights. Palestinians – an insignificant enemy – pressed Israel for sweeping concessions even while they keep shelling Jewish towns. The Arabs did not give way on a single issue.
Arabs protested Jewish settlement of Palestine; most Jews were unsympathetic to Zionist idea. Arabs always rejected massive Jewish presence while Zionist leaders implored Arabs to stay in the Jewish state. Sadat pressed Begin to evacuate Jewish towns from Sinai; Sharon concurred then and demolished Jewish villages in Gaza years later. Arabs refuse to accept Jews in their countries, but successfully insist that swarms of Arabs be citizens of the Jewish state.
The Arabs consider the land rightfully theirs and fight for it. Smart and critical Jews rejected religion and doubt their right to the land. The balance of will favors the righteous.
Comment by yamit82 — March 10, 2009 @ 10:27 am
So just to return to Yamit82´s deep in pesimism friend Kit
Kit writes
Yamit82 uses this logic, which I last heard used by a devotee of the Provos when they were at the height of their terrorism in the North.
It is kind of the disaster chaos theory of politics. I think the Rusian Narodniks of Lenin´s time had somewhat the same approach.
Terrorism is mired in despair.
Waiting for Obama to screw you in the hopes of a BIG reaction same thing.
Yamit82 is a Narodnik!!!!
As he justifies voting for Obama.
Has there ever been such a fraud int he Jewish blogs as is Yamit82?
As he writes
Yamit then goes on to call to his side this religious bankrupt freak Kahane.
So let us look closely at Kahane and strip away the God recipe for success what is there left. Mine is in Capitals
Isolation. The Jew does not wish to be isolated. He fears being alone, without allies. He fears man, he trusts only in man and so - in the exquisitely Divine way of the Almighty - precisely that which he fears will be sent upon him.
OF COURSE THE JEW FEARS MAN AND HE IS PERFECTLY SENSIBLE TO DO SO, GIVEN THEIR HISTORY
He fears to do that which the Almighty demands - to annex the territories and establish Jewish sovereignty over them, as part of the Holy Land of Israel.
NO ALMIGHTY ALLOWED IN POLITICAL DISCUSSION
The Almighty DITTO repays him by turning them into burning caldrons of an
intifada, with confused Israeli youth not knowing whether these Holy lands are indeed Jewish or “occupied.” While a world that is normal and knows that if land belongs to you then you annex it, feels free to condemn a country that does not do so as an “occupier.”
He fears to throw out the cancer raging in his midst - the Arab enemy - lest the world turn on him.
AND INDEED RIGHT TO TAKE THAT INTO THE RECKONING. ARE THESE GOD PEOPLE NOT SO BRAVE!!!
He is repaid measure for measure by a grim Almighty DITTO as the world, daily, condemns him for “oppression” of people that would not have been there had he had faith in G-d rather than fear of the Gentile.
THE PEOPLE ARE THERE AS A RESULT OF A HISTOPRICAL PROCESS ROOTED IN THE NAZI ARAB ALLIANCE INT HE HOLOCAUST. SEE NO NEED FOR GOD TO UNDERSTAND THIS STUFF.
In any event, the Jew will be isolated, and that is the greatest blessing imaginable.
BULLSHIT
For so long as the Jew has even one ally, he will be convinced - in his smallness of mind - that his salvation came from that ally.
IN HIS “SMALLNESS OF MIND”. SEE HOW KAHANE REALLY LIKES THESE PROFANE AND HUMAN JEWS.
It is only when he is alone - against all of his own efforts and frantic attempts - that he will, through no choice, be compelled to turn to G-d.
OH REALLY. YOU SURE ABOUT THAT MATEY!
And it is only when the Jew stands alone against a world unified in hatred against him, that the Almighty will turn, in His anger and wrath, against the nations that knew Him not,
BULL! HISTORY OF 1945 DISPROVES THIS. THE US NAZIS EMERGED OK
and His powerful arm that will bring salvation to the Jew will be the awesome proof to the nations that the Lord, G-d of Israel, is indeed One - the only One.
BULLSHIT
That is why isolation will be. WRONG! That it is why it must be. Wrong! It is the greatest of blessings, and the foolish Jew of little faith sees it only as a curse. Foolish Jew, Jew of Exile, whose soul and mind has been destroyed by that Exile, who has turned from a Jew of faith into one of trembling before the man of dust
Unless. Unless we become the Jews we were meant to be.
RUBBISH KAHANE!
The Jews of chosenness. Of might and faith.
RUBBISH AGAIN! TO BE ISOLATED FROM THE WORLD SOCIALIST REVOLUTION IS NOT MIGHT AND IT AINT SMART!
Unless we ignore both the money and the honey of the United States and their empty threats and condemnation.
KAHANE GOT IT WRONG!
THERE HAS BEEN NO HONEY FROM THE US. THERE HAS ONLY BEEN VERY BITTER VINEGAR!
Condemnation? It is dandruff to be brushed away before moving on to do the will of G-d.
WHAT STOPS YOU KAHANE AND YAMIT82! YOU ARE IMBECILES! YOU WANT THE JEWS TO BE ISOLATED AND DEFEATED! SOME RELIGIOUS PEOPLE JUST LOVE TO BE DEFEATED!
KAHANE AND YAMIT SPURN ALLIES AND WISH FOR THE JEWS TO BE DEFEATED! THEN THGE RELIGIOUS PEOPLE STEP IN WITH THEIR “RECIPE”. AND THEY ALWAYS HAVE AN ANSWER!
In any event, there is no choice. The United States will turn on Israel, slowly and subtly.
KAHANE MISSES THE WHOLE POINT OF THE GIL WHITE RESEARCH. THE US WILL NOT TURN. IT WAS NEVER THE FRIEND!
The difference is that if we turn from the Gentile first, we will have the Almighty as the immediate staff and our comfort. If not, we will have neither the Gentile nor, for a terrible stage, the Almighty.
GOD NOT ALLOWED IN THIS POLITICAL DISCUSSION YAMIT82!
DO IT ON YOUR OWNIO!
AND THE CONCEPT HERE OF GENTILE IS AN INSULT TO THE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF ORDINARY AMERICAN PEOPLE JUST BURSTING TO BE THE ALLIES OF THE JEWS.
CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF HOW THIS TERM “GENTILE” IS BEING USED IN A TOTALLY REACTIONARY AND DAMAGING TO THE JEWISH PEOPLE MANNER.
The basic problem of Yamit82 Peskin is that he has no perspective for reaching the hundreds of millions of ordinary US people, the working class. Even the way he describes them tells us what his attitude to ordinary working class people is.
I would strongly advise readers to pay not the slightest attention to anything Yamit82 says. He is basically a reactionary windbag.
He and Kahane have nothing to offer.
Comment by Felix Quigley — March 10, 2009 @ 10:43 am
TED WROTE THIS ABOVE
AND
ALSO BY A SIZEABLE NUMBER OF JEWS. THAT IS JEWS IN ISRAEL, JEWS IN EUROPE SUCH AS HARRY’S PLACE JEWS LIKE DAVID T, AND ALMOST ALL JEWISH ORGANIZATIONS IN THE US
The Obama administration has accepted the idea of economic development but not as a substitute for diplomatic progress. It is careful to always say it wants a secure Israel to result. But few believe that capitulation by Israel will make it more secure.
WE NEED A PARTY IN AMERICA TO FIGHT OBAMA ON THIS.
Israel could also decide to follow the National Union’s plan to annex Judea and Samaria together with its 1.4 million Arabs. In the expanded Israel, Jews would outnumber Arabs by a ratio of 2:1. Citizenship would be available to these Arabs, over an extended period, say 15 years, giving time for detoxification, subject to certain prerequisites. These include loyalty oaths, knowledge of Hebrew, national service and so on. Of course all terrorists and their huggers would have to be expelled.
THIS IS NOT ANY ORDINARY STATE. THIS STATE WAS ESTABLISHED FOLLOWING THE BIGGEST HUMAN EVER EVENT, THAT IS THE HOLOCAUST
ISLAM WAS HIGHLY IMPLICATED IN THE NAZI HOLOCAUST
AND SO MUSLIMS CAN NOT BE CITIZENS IN ISRAEL. MUSLIMS CAN BE CITIZENS OF ANY OF THE 500 OTHER STATES INT HE WORLD.
BUT FOLLOWING THE HOLOCAUST IN WHICH ISLAM WAS CENTRAL NOT OF ISRAEL.
TO SUGGEST THEY SHOULD IS AN INSULT TO JEWS AND IS IN FACT ANTISEMITIC
THE PRINCIPLE IS
WHETHER THEY STAY, DECIDE TO LEAVE, OR ARE PUSHED OUT THEY CAN NOT BE CITIZENS OF THE JEWISH STATE.
FIGHT OBAMA ON THIS
OBAMA AND HIS CLASS ARE ANTISEMITIC
IT IS ALSO ANTISEMITIC TO SAY THAT A MUSLIM AND A JEW HAVE TO BE EQUAL IN CITIZENSHIP OF ISRAEL. IT IS THE THOUGHT OF A BARBAROUS PERSON. TO TURN HUMANS INTO IMBECILES WHERE THEY DO NOT REMEMBER HISTORY AND BASE THEIR PERSPECTIVES ON THAT.
IT IS TO ASK JEWS TO BE LOWER THAN A DOG.
IF YOU ABUSE A DOG THE DOG REMEMBERS FOREVER.
JEWS ARE BEING ASKED NOT TO REMEMBER. TO ACT LIKE IMBECILES AND NOT REMEMBER THE HOLOCAUST AND THE PART PLAYED IN IT BY ISLAM.
TAKE THIS SENTENCE
But few believe that capitulation by Israel will make it more secure.
THERE ARE MANY WHO THINK THAT CAPITULATION BY ISRAEL WILL MAKE IT MORE SECURE. PEOPLE CAN CONVINCE THEMSELVES OF ANYTHING. IT IS A QUESTION OF IDEOLOGY. THAT IS THE ROLE OF LEADERSHIP. THESE IDEAS HAVE TO BE FOUGHT OUT IN THE OPEN IN FRONT OF THE GREAT MASSES OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.
BETTER IN THE ABOVE TO SAY
A PALESTINE STATE IS AIMED AT THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL.
Apologies for the use of capitals. I AM shouting to have my voice heard above the verbiage.
Israpundit and all blogs I know of, including Jihadwatch, simply have never imbibed the lessons of the stringent research done by Professor Gil White.
The problem with the US and Israel is the problem of the US elite and Israel. The issue has to be lñooked at from a class viewpoint. It is the ELITE.
The break from US Imperialism has not happened. Thus it is this which condemns the Jews and nothing else.
We need a Trotskyist Party very badly indeed that will place Jewish liberation at the head of its banner.
Comment by Felix Quigley — March 10, 2009 @ 10:58 am
Ted
If you take seriously what you have written and what Fred has pointed out then there has to be big changes in the way blogs like yours and Pamela´s actually operate.
If Israel attacks Iran you can imagine the level of hate propaganda against Israel.
Fred has posed the question…how can this be met by the resources which we have at our disposal.
The biggest problem is that each website carries on in its own individual manner, each one with a slightly different emphasis.
I think the time to act is now, and to act on a joint programme.
This is to emphasize that Israel does not actually have a choice. In order for Jews to continue to live in Israel then the Iranian nuclear threat has to be removed.
This brings us all up against the US elite. This included Bush who as far as I understood blocked Israel getting any help in flying over Iraq and did everything to delay and hold back Israel.
It brings us up even more against Obama who is planning a diplomatic liason with Iran.
There must be some way that the wit of man can find to create a united platform in America and Canada. Have you any ideas on this vital issue.
The time to do this is now and not to wait until events submerge us. My differences with Yamit82 centre on precisely this, that his political line tends to negate the need to move into the great American working class, or call it what you like, the ordinary American people, which must include the comitted religious Christians.
It will also seek to expose those Jewish organizations who ar ein bed with Obama.
Comment by Felix Quigley — March 10, 2009 @ 12:15 pm
Felix: Re:#64, I didn’t Post Langes piece Ted did, I never heard of her or her blog before then. The quote that you find so distasteful is the exact thing that I have been advocating for ever it seems. You are right about America never really being on Israels side except for a very brief period after the 67 war.
You are only partly right that I accept such an eventuality as a Jewish tragedy, I believe it would be exactly the opposite.
Read #61 Thats what I consider our greatest obstacle, The Jews themselves. In order for us to overcome that obstacle The Jews need to be pushed and forced to do what they out of fear of man would not do otherwise. Jewish Holidays are instructive. Today is the Holiday of Purim where the Jewish Defense league of Shusan rose up and slaughtered 75000 of the fascist Nazi, antisemitic Haman, his family and a whole band of his minions, their families down to their dogs and cats( my version). On Hanukkah, we celebrate victory in a brutal civil war where Jewish ultra-Orthodox Maccabeans defeated the liberals who merely sought to introduce some elements of Hellenistic culture and tolerance to other religions. The Maccabean war was not one of independence: Judea merely turned from Syrian into Roman protectorate.
On Purim, we do not celebrate deliverance from evil Haman. He was hanged nine months before that (Esther 8:9) for two offenses: plotting against Esther’s people and apparently trying to rape her (7:8),
The celebration marks Jews killing “those who hated them” (9:1). It was not “an eye for an eye” retaliation or even the rabbinical, “That who comes to slay you, slay him first” because the midrash relates that the haters’ children were also killed. That was a classic war of preemption, albeit a belated one. Haman is called an Agagite, a descendant of Amalek’s King Agag whom Saul had initially spared and Prophet Samuel cut in half. The Haman debacle befell us because centuries earlier Saul, a good Jewish king, practiced “the mercy of fools” – after defeating Amalekites, he had mercy on those who would have had no mercy upon us.
The Haman’s example follows the Torah’s exterminatory logic. God commanded Hebrews to leave no trace of natives in the land he gives us. If they wish to leave, they may do so, but if they dare fighting us, they have to be exterminated to the last child. Divine logic is spotless: if allowed to remain, the natives would always remember that Jews took away their land; they will hate and fight us forever, become thorns in our sides. Under Mordechai’s leadership, Jews realized that they cannot afford to leave their haters alive – and killed them. Leaving the haters’ children would have just perpetuated the violence as the children grow and take revenge.
For Jews to return to a semblance of proper Jewish behavior they must return to Torah Judaism and obey the commandments to the letter and spirit of G-d’s Laws not only for Jews but for the Gentiles as well. We need to do our part and allow G-d to do his.
And what might that big picture be that I don’t see? Do you have similar views with everyone who disagrees with you? Loser? Who is a Trotskyite here?
Speech written by another Irishman:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhQcqtX9ufo
This is Shaw the communist speaking and he was right in that socialists viewed man in the negative not their grandeur.
Comment by yamit82 — March 10, 2009 @ 12:31 pm
Yamit82
The bigger picture is the world capitalist system which is in a huge crisis, which is and will effect the thinking of every human being on the planet.
The response of you as a religious man is to be totally blind to this, as if it did not matter.
But it does matter greatly.
On all kinds of levels
1. The US Nazis are going to bring all forces into play in order to stay in power. One of these is the whipping up of antisemitism as a method of rule
2. When will the bankers row in behind antisemitism
3. Hitler, was he a tool of the bankers? yes in my history book he was. The bankers sat down, discussed it and then gave Hitler their backing and go ahead
Again you talk about past episodes in Jewish history.
But you do not spell out what is your position towards the great American people who are in hundreds of millions strong the allies of the Jews of Israel.
Do you accept that or deny that? Do you see American society as one of workers and elite? If not why not?
Neither does Ted Belman in actual fact spell out his position towards the great American people..
I more or less plead with him in immediate post above (post 68) and Ted does not stir a muscle.
Why should Ted be like this? What is his purpose in not responding to my plea, for him to get up from his computer and begin a more fruitful practice in America?
The one practical thing you have done Yamit82 is to vote for Obama. At least that was a move. You did something. But not a real conscious practice, rather a move hoping for utter Bedlam, and then this Bedlam will drive Jews to change.
This is just Bakunin type anarchism
We have enough of contemplative man and we now need a political movement of doers.
For that you have to go back to the Bolsheviks of Lenin. When the moment came in the October of 1917 they did strike.
I do have confidence in the Jewish people of Israel. They have enough int hem to make a strike against Iran.
If that is not done it is all over for the Jews and over for Israel.
And when that happens (meaning the strike against Iran and the subsequent crisis) will Ted Belman have made any moves towards an agitational movement in America.
Comment by Felix Quigley — March 11, 2009 @ 10:46 am
Felix
I haven’t followed his thread on a daily basis. After an absence of a week I tuned in to day.
I fully understand that Israel and Jews for that matter have the support of the American people. Nevertheless the elite with their control of the media can work wonders. Especially when Jews have mixed priorities. They preferred the utopia that Obama offered than the parochial support of Israel. Even now the CPAC convention took place and little was said about the threat of Islam.
You wrote that the American people would not stand for denying Israel resupply of weapons. But in ‘73 the time frame was very small and the American people could barely get out of bed. Kissinger held up resupply for three or four days as I recall and but for the maverick Haig’s activities and the ultimate order by Nixon, Israel could have perished.
As for coordinating the bloggers, I prefer to let a thousand lilies bloom. To do as you suggest would bureaucratize the system and limit ingenuity.
There are many strong voices out their doing what they can with little result. Nevertheless they are he hope. They must continue the slow process of making the case for Israel in the belief or at least the hope that ultimately their collective efforts will make a difference.
Comment by Ted Belman — March 11, 2009 @ 11:46 am
No, a thousand times no Ted. You are wrong on basically every count. You are so wrong that it is a philosophical difference that must be brought out and a conclusion reached.
I will put it like this, in a round about way.
I remember Bill Narvey always complaining when was the Israeli people going to march down to the Knesset etc.
We have to reach some truth on how masses of people actually operate. I feel that the mass movements of people only happen when they are pushed to the extreme. AND MOST IMPORTANT IT IS NOT A LONG LASTING PHENOMENON.
The Russian workers in 1917 were not “revolutionary” in that sense. Through the months of 1917 there was general crisis and chaos, and they sensed that Kerensky (the social democrat “democrat”) was doing a deal with Kornilov whiich would mean the putting down of the workers organizations by brutal force, as happened more recently in Chile under Pinochet.
It was either or. Lenin fought to turn the Bolshevik party around. The majority like Stalin and Kerensky wanted to row behind Kerensky.
The workers staring disaster in the face found themselves FORCED to act.
Enough about 1917 because I know you are anti communist in some ways. I just try to make a point from my experience mso understand this is no soap box.
Take the Lebanon War. I remember it well. The amazing thing is that at the start of the war the Jews of Israel rowed in behind the IDF 99 per cent. These snakes like Pappe etc do not change, but the Peace Now movement was PARALYSED
Do you remember that?
But these things do not last. Without clear leadership people become confused and they hesitate.
Clear leadership is the vital ingredient. HOW CAN I MAKE YOU SEE THAT TED! And clear leadership means action.
Time is NOT on our side. We are battling against time.
Take the Gaza war. A just cause. But look where the action was on the streets, from the Fascists Islamists and Left.
I believe very strongly that these elites are stirring up the old Jew Hatred quite consciously. THIS IS WHAT THEY HAVE ALWAYS DONE IN THE PAST.
Obama may indeed be groomed by the CIA through the time he was with Ayers, surely a very shady character. (I mean Ayers here)
Israel is in great great danger Ted.
1. From the Iranian Hamas Hizbullah bomb
2. From the reaction to its inevitable strike against Iran
We must be ready. Take precise and conscious organizational moves. How on earth would such preparation spoil spontaneity. Not at all.
We need organization. You talk like you were kind of an anarchist.
But I know your heart is in the right place and if convinced of the need you will respond.
Comment by Felix Quigley — March 12, 2009 @ 10:38 am
Felix
I have no quarrel with what you say. You write
In practical terms what does that mean?
Comment by Ted Belman — March 12, 2009 @ 10:45 am
I mean this Ted
Professor Gil White wrote
http://www.hirhome.com/israel/leaders1.htm
I believe that the Gaza War Dec/Jan was a qualitative point, a point where quantity turns into quality and we begin to see more clearly the outline of events to come.
When I look at that war this is what I personally see
1. The stage of struggle in an ideological standpoint was vacated by the Jews and those supporting the Jews
2. That stage was captured and used completely by antisemites. That is the antisemites which are embodied in the elites of the US and Europe, who set the scene, and underneath them their Left vassals and the Islamofascists of the Muslim Brotherhood.
On this we have to be clear that it is the elites of the US and Europe who are controlling these forces of antisemitism because it is these elites who control the Mass Media, the schools colleges and Universities.
Having said that I come to your question
I believe that we must have a political platform on which we agree. This is not a common denominator, but an assessment of the reality that Jews in Israel face.
1. The role of the US and EU ruling elites with great emphhasis on Christopher Simpson´s Blowback in setting US and EU policy and programme abroad
2. The role of the antisemitic Left
3. The role of Jewish organizations who are clearly antisemitic such as J Street and how they are used by antisemites as in the Palestine Solidarity Campaign
4. The role of those who leave out the danger to Israel from the US ruling class, and the ruling elites in many other countries. This is a common thread and will be the most difficult to surmount
AN ADVANCE WOULD BE THIS
Do not ever again allow the Left and Islamist Fascists to hold the streets as they did during the Gaza War.
The groups of Jews as happened in Toronto were beaten off the streets by a combination of the Islamofascist Lefts and their alliance with the state in the form of the Police and the Human Rights apparatus as exemplified in the attack on Mark Steyne
One way to counter this is to have an organization based on these precise principles which is capable of booking venues as in New York, in LA, in Toronto, in London
Have the message from These meetings precise and clear.
The numbers who attend will be small because our power will be small. But this sharp message should emerge from these meetings with force.
THE MEETINGS HELD BY PETER bERGSON ARE AN EXAMPLE OF THE POWER OF SUCH A PLATFORM
In that regard the numbers are not the main thing.
Surely blogs in Israel and especially Israel National News will pick up on these meetings and this will surely enter into the Israeli discourse and will show Netanyahu and Israelis in general that they are not alone as they prepare to destroy the Iranian Nuclear Bomb, against which all other politics fade in comparision.
We have to begin to create a situation where we differentiate people and groups on the basis of this.
Do they support another Holocaust of the Jews of Israel
Or do they oppose it actively.
Of course I believe in the general political correctness of my political line, historical Trotskyism, but our forces are weak. What we need is a principle, that all political groups and individuals have a right to argue their political viewpoint. Inside the context of defeating the Iranian Nuclear threat to Jews.
That to me is a United Front. It is an open entity, a free entity, and one which will encourage the spontaneity that you mention, not discourage it.
So when Israel and Netanyahu atacks Iran, and Obama opposes it and leads the opposition, can we find it within ourselves to unite the best of us together and to make our voice heard especially to the struggling people of Israel.
To get the ball rolling I will write to my friends and ask them to contact John Spencer, and I know that John is in contact with Pamela, because I saw a picture of them on a demo together.
These are the very best of people and if what I am saying is not possible they will let me and us know. But I am sure it is possible.
Comment by Felix Quigley — March 13, 2009 @ 11:12 am