Stopping settlement growth is victory enough for Obama.
By Ted Belman
What the hell is going on? Its plain to see that Obama is wooing the Muslim world. He sees the strongest nation aligning with the largest nation as an umbeatable combination. Did anyone hear of Europe, lately? Besides Europe will be Muslim in, at most, a generation.
Israel is another matter, actually a fly in the ointment. Israel represents an impediment to Obama’s grand design. Only by forcing Israel to make peace on Arab terms, can he succeed. That is why the push is on.
As one American expert said,
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“We have significant, existential threats that Israel faces from Iran and that the U.S. faces from this region. It is in our mutual interest to end this conflict, and to begin to build new regional alliances.”
But Aaron David Miller of the Woodrow Wilson Institute offered another thought
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“What I’m beginning to see is that the Obama administration may be less concerned with actually getting to negotiations and an agreement and more interested in setting new rules and rearranging the furniture. They may have concluded that they can’t get to a real two state solution with this prime minister [Netanyahu]. Maybe they want a new one? And the best way to raise the odds of that is to demonstrate that he can’t manage Israel’s most important relationship: with the U.S.”
You will remember that the main reason Netanyahu was put out of office first time around was his deteriated relationship with Pres Clinton.
Paul Kelly, in The Australian describes Obama’s New Way.
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The challenge is to demonstrate they’re [Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas] wrong and we’re [US and Abbas] right. That is very hard. But I believe what makes it now possible is that for the first time Arab leaders are in the same boat as Israel’s leaders.”
They have a common enemy: the Iranian campaign to dominate the region tied to its quest for a nuclear capability. For Indyk, “this fear can be used to cement a kind of virtual Arab-Israeli peacemaking”. Obama is reaching out to Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Syria, the key Arab states in any regional diplomatic framework.
Indyk argues that if Iran goes nuclear then Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Syria will follow. This is one reason Obama says an Iranian nuclear capability would be a “game-changer”. It guarantees a nuclear arms race in the Middle East with critical consequences for the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.
For Indyk, Obama is following the first lesson from Clinton’s experience: the US must leverage its influence for peace. Without a breakthrough on a two-state solution, the outlook is more conflict and more openings for bad actors to exploit.
So how is his peace initiative going to prevent a nuclear Iran. It won’t. Obama must let Israel do the job. Perhaps he is contemplating doing so but first wants to show the Muslim world that he is their friend. What better way than to crunch Israel.
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Indyk calls Obama’s game plan “ambitious, complicated and sophisticated”. He says: “The idea is that the best way to succeed is to work on three fronts simultaneously: try to move the Palestinian-Israeli process, try to exploit Syria’s interest in peace with Israel and test whether the Iranians will negotiate curbs on their nuclear program while normalising relations between the US and Iran.
The easiest pickings for Obama is the Palestinian/Israel peace process.
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All roads lead directly to new Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu who, at present, won’t come down from the Golan Heights, thereby ruling out any deal with Syria, and won’t commit to a two-state solution, ruling out any deal with the Palestinians. Something has to give.
“There’s a time-honoured tradition in Israeli politics,” Indyk says. “(Menachem) Begin gave up the Sinai to keep the West Bank, (Ariel) Sharon gave up Gaza to keep his West Bank settlements, I can imagine Netanyahu calculating he could give up the Golan to avoid the territorial concessions in the West Bank that would bring down his Government.
If Israel were to give up the Golan, any respite from the pressure on Judea and Samaria would short lived. And Syria is not about to grant Israel what it wants namely distancing herself from Hezbolla, Lebanon and Hamas, so I don’t see that tract going well.
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On Iran, Indyk says: “Israeli doctrine is clear. It will not allow another nuclear power to emerge in the region. Every person who becomes prime minister in Israel takes on an obligation to ensure the survival of the Jewish commonwealth. From the perspective of the Prime Minister’s office there’s an existential threat to the survival of the state.”
This means “it is more likely than not the Israelis will take military action” without a negotiated solution. Yet Indyk says a caveat remains: Israel’s ties with the US. Obama has sent the signal; he opposes any Israeli action at this point with US forces in Iraq and Afghanistan and the global economy in crisis. “Israel can’t just act on its own,” Indyk says.
In their recent meeting Obama reassured Netanyahu: the US won’t just let Iran play out the clock. Obama nominates the end of the year as the time to assess whether Iran wants to negotiate. The truth, however, as Indyk concedes, is that “the US can live with a nuclear Iran, but it is much harder for Israel to do so”.
Something’s gotta give.
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Indyk expects Obama to apply serious pressure to Israel on the two-state solution and West Bank settlements. “I think Netanyahu now understands that Obama is not going to be a pussy cat, that Obama is dead set on what he wants, and I expect we will see Netanyahu adjust his position,” Indyk says. “When the US President asserts the asymmetry in the relationship, then Israel becomes a small power that has to find a way to accommodate the demands of its great power patron.”
It seems to me that Obama is not at the moment pushing the peace process as it is a bridge too far. Instead he is pushing for a complete settlement freeze. That is doable, if at all, right now. That’s why the crunch is on. If he succeeds, the Arab world will consider it a great victory. It doesn’t care about peace and a Palestinian state. It just wants to stop Israel in its tracts. That will win over a lot of friends in the Arab world.
But it won’t bring peace.
A far-right party representing Jewish settlers in the West Bank sent a preemptive warning that if Netanyahu compromises on a Palestinian accord at the White House, they’ll pull out of his coalition. Referring to Netanyahu’s concession during his first term as prime minister – he also relinquished Israeli control over most of the West Bank town of Hebron – Jewish Home party and parliament member Uri Orbach said, “when one is burned by hot water, they are wary of cold water.
“We hope that he will stand up for himself,” Orbach added in an interview with Israel Radio. “We aren’t in the government to support a Palestinian state.”
Parliament speaker Reuven Rivlin, a member of Netanyahu’s own party, said a two-state solution is a “problem.”
Elyakim Haetzni, a former Israeli Knesset member who lives in the settlement of Kiryat Araba, says, “We have a bad experience with Netanyahu.” During his first tenure as prime minister in the late 1990s, Netanyahu criticized the Oslo Accords but eventually bowed to US urging, agreeing to relinquish control over parts of the West Bank and sealing the deal by shaking Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat’s hand. Settlers are afraid of a repeat. “What we say to Netanyahu is don’t cave in again,” says Mr. Haetzni. “We are afraid that he will try to avoid the problem, to go around it, to look for a formulation.” http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0518/p06s01-wome.html
Netanyahu is also aware that the life expectancy of Israeli governments can be truncated if a rift opens up with Israel’s most important ally, the US. Many observers point to former prime minister Yitzhak Shamir, under whom Israeli relations soured with the Bush administration in 1991 after he refused to clamp down on settlement building. He was then voted out of office.
All those precedents of recent history has settlers worried.
Comment by yamit82 — May 30, 2009 @ 9:34 am
I agree but this is not a change of policy except more honest, open and more in our faces. All American Governments have done and advocated more or less the same thing from us.
The best thing for America about Israel is that she creates a controllable threat. Arabs perceive Israel as a dangerous dog and the US – as her master. The dog must be well armed to bark loudly and increase the master’s importance. The American establishment needs Israel conflicting with Muslim states. The states threatened by Israel appeal to the US for protection and arbitration. Such policy doesn’t require the absence of peace treaties between Israel and Muslims. America has it both ways in the case of Egypt: the peacemaker’s laurels of pressing Israel and Egypt into the peace agreement, and afterwards – of the power broker who arms both Israel and Egypt and oversees their hostile relations. Dog barks when feels insecure; Israel in the 8-mile-wide Road Map borders will be permanently insecure, thus hysterical. The peace agreement with Arabs would make Israel so narrow that she would not be able to afford war. Israel was very relaxed after 1967, enjoying a great depth of defense in Sinai. Ludicrously narrow Israel, surrounded by the Hezbollah-dominated Lebanon, Hamas-run Palestine, saturated with Russian missiles Syria, and Iraqi-controlled Jordan – such an Israel will brandish her weapons to steer the enemies away. The enemies will be afraid and spiral the arms race and lean on America.
America and Russia collectively arm every single enemy of Israel who was silenced with a kickback of $600 million increase in the US military aid. Wait, we don’t need that aid which amounts to 16% of Israel’s defense budget. Rather, we expect our friends not to arm our sworn enemies like Saudi Arabia and Egypt and refrain from spiraling the arms race in our backyard.
Israel cannot sustain arms race with Muslims because dictatorships can funnel larger chunks of their budget into defense spending than a welfare democracy. So far, Israel spends a larger part of her GDP on defense than her enemies, but collectively they spend much more than Israel. Much of Israel’s defense budget is wasted on conscripts while Saudis spend mostly on weapons. Iran and Syria buy relatively cheap Russian weapons and procure considerable stocks while spending less than Israel in the dollar terms. Saudi Arabia financed Pakistani nuclear program, and now receives the nuclear technology feedback. Pakistan reportedly keeps a number of nuclear warheads in Saudi Arabia. After Iran, Egypt, Libya, and Saudi Arabia go nuclear, Israel’s nuclear deterrent will deter no more. Israel will hope for conventional wars where all sides refrain from using nuclear weapons first, but Muslims are irrational. Devoid of the nuclear edge and unable to keep up the arms race, Israel will succumb to Muslim demands. Arabs won’t immediately push the Jews into the sea but rather use them as bargaining chips in dealings with America. Muslim tolerance to a nominally Jewish state is a currency on par with the dollar. Unable and unwilling to persevere as a Jewish state, Israel will continue as Middle Eastern democracy, a sort of Mali. Leftists will convince the population that it is okay to abandon Jerusalem to Arabs and forget about Judea. Arabs will have no problem tolerating dhimmi Jews on the Palestinian beach strip and in the Negev desert. Under the cover of ethnic-blind democracy, Israel will allow free migration of Arabs, and Jews will become a minority living in ghettos.
High Court fights for Palestinian rights
Arabs fear Iranian nukes more than Israeli. That says a lot about Israeli tarnished credibility. Iranian mullahs with no serious plans against the Arab countries cause more concern than the Zionist enemy who have been fighting the Arabs for decades. Nuclear or other weapons are assets; it is madness of their owners that terrifies the enemies.
Israel has a perfect opportunity to re-assert her dominance by using nuclear weapons against Iranian nuclear facilities. Arabs in their hearts would applaud and the West would know it could count on Israel. At the very least, kill Ahmadinejad.
China reminded the US that the next large war could be fought with Kalashnikoffs rather than F-16’s. That the Chinese shot down a satellite is very surprising, if true. The technology is complicated, thought beyond the current Chinese capabilities. China strangely risked major political confrontation with the West over the missile test after witnessing the recent standoff with North Korea. Still more oddly, the Chinese remained silent of their major military achievement.
Cheap missiles could shoot down the American GPS satellites. China sells Iran any weapons and nuclear technology. Iran has or soon could have the Chinese missiles capable of dealing with the US satellites. That’s quite a deterrent.
Obama wants to partner with Iran? WW 3 is about to erupt, at least the foundations are being put in place.
Comment by yamit82 — May 30, 2009 @ 11:05 am
Israel is being assigned the role of Czechoslovakia. She will be forced to give up the defensive high ground and Jerusalem. Jews will leave Israel in droves. The rest, if not exterminated outright, will become a powerless dhimmi minority under Muslim rule. That is the essence of the Obama “peace” plan. Something has to give to delay the onset of World War IV for a few years and that is Israel. And the next world war will be fought with nuclear weapons. The West, after having sold out Israel, will be ruthlessly destroyed by Islam for its betrayal of the Jews. All of this will come to pass if Israel is forced to capitulate to American demands. The writing is on the wall. There will be no peace but the greatest war - and the final war - in human history. And no war will ever follow it for on a ruined planet are the charred bones of the dead. The greatest danger in this hour to humanity (and the Jewish people) is the unholy alliance between the Left and the Islamists.
Comment by NormanF — May 30, 2009 @ 1:21 pm
Part of the reasons America needs Israel is that we allow American Arms proliferation throughout the region. Egypt is the largest recepient of American weapons outside of Israel in the world.
I must ask why Egypt needs to have such a large modern highly echnical military? Who are her existential enemies? NONE! Who are her potential existential enemies? Israel.
America is able to pass through congress military aid to Israels enemies easily because she also supplies Israel.
If Israel refused to receive military aid she could Lobby Congress to stop or ban arms to Egypt Jordan and Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states. Rather than see massive proliferation of expensive lethal high tech weapons, reducing same might go a long way towards regional stabilization even sometime in the future a real peace.
US approved sale to Egypt of 12 Apache Block II Longbow attack helicopters fitted with the latest sensor and avionics package?
Egypt - AH-64D APACHE Longbow Helicopters
(Source: US Defense Security Cooperation Agency; issued May 26, 2009)
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/release/3/105577/us-approves-%24820m-sale-to-egypt-of-ah_64d-apache-longbow-helicopters.html
WASHINGTON — On May 22, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified
Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Egypt of
12 AH-64D Block II APACHE Longbow Helicopters and associated equipment,
parts, training and support for an estimated cost of $820 million.
The Government of Egypt has requested a possible sale of 12 AH-64D Block II
APACHE Longbow Helicopters, 27 T700-GE-701D Engines, 36 Modernized Targeting
Acquisition and Designation Systems/Pilot Night Vision Sensors, 28 M299
Hellfire Longbow Missile Launchers, 14 AN/ALQ-144(V)3 Infrared jammers, and
14 AN/APR-39B(V)2 Radar Signal Detecting Sets.
Also included: composite horizontal stabilizers, Integrated Helmet and
Display Sight Systems, repair and return, transportation, depot maintenance,
spare and repair parts, support equipment, publications and technical
documentation, U.S. Government and contractor technical support, and other
related elements of program support.
The estimated cost is $820 million.
This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national
security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a
friendly country which has been and continues to be an important force for
political stability and economic progress in the Middle East. This sale is
consistent with these U.S. objectives and with the 1950 Treaty of Mutual
Cooperation and Security.
Egypt will use the AH-64D for its national security and protecting its
borders. The aircraft will provide the Egyptian military more advanced
targeting and engagement capabilities. The proposed sale will provide for
the defense of vital installations and will provide close air support for
the military ground forces. Egypt will have no difficulty absorbing these
helicopters into its armed forces.
The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic
military balance in the region.
The prime contractors will be The Boeing Company in Mesa, Arizona, and St.
Louis, Missouri, General Electric Company of Lynn, Massachusetts, and
Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control in Orlando, Florida. There are no
known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale.
Implementation of this proposed sale requires the assignment of one U.S.
Government representative to Egypt for a period of six years to provide
intensive coordination, monitoring, and technical assistance to assure a
smooth transition of the helicopters in country. Additionally, six
contractor representatives will be in Egypt conducting duties as Contractor
Field Service Representatives for a period of five years and with a possible
five-year extension.
There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of
this proposed sale.
This notice of a potential sale is required by law. It does not mean that
the sale has been concluded.
-ends-
WITH FRIENDS LIKE THIS WHO NEEDS ENEMIES?
Comment by yamit82 — May 30, 2009 @ 3:10 pm
EGYPT YES! ISRAEL NO!
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2009/ss_israel0424_05_27.asp
Wednesday, May 27, 2009
Administration blocks helicopters for Israel due to civilian casualties in Gaza
WASHINGTON — The Obama administration has blocked Israel’s request for advanced U.S.-origin attack helicopters.
Of course they threaten people, the threat of an Apache sticking a hellfire up your ass is enough to keep most people from firing rockets…..
http://www.weaselzippers.net/blog/2009/05/obama-administration-blocks-sale-of-apache-attack-helicopters-to-israel-concerned-they-would-threate.html?cid=6a00e008c6b4e5883401156fbb57a3970c
The Israel Air Force has also requested U.S. permission to integrate the Spike extended-range anti-tank missile into the AH-64D. Spike ER, developed by the state-owned Rafael Advanced Defense Systems, has a range of eight kilometers and was installed on the Eurocopter Tiger and AgustaWestland A129 helicopters.
The sources said the deployment of Spike would require integration into the Longbow’s millimeter-wave fire control and acquisition system. They said this would require permission from both Boeing and the U.S. government.
Israel’s Defense Ministry and air force have discussed procurement of additional Longbows with the U.S. firm Boeing. But the sources said the Longbow as well as other defense requests have been shelved by the administration amid its review of the potential use of American weapons platforms by Israel.
During his visit to the United States, Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu also sought to win approval from the Defense Department for the installation of Israeli-origin electronic warfare systems in the Joint Strike Fighter.
Netanyahu was said to have met Defense Secretary Robert Gates in a review of Israeli defense programs with the United States. Defense Minister Ehud Barak was scheduled to meet Gates in Washington in early June.
Comment by yamit82 — May 30, 2009 @ 3:20 pm
The Arabs and especially the Egyptians are loven this turn of events. The Whole world is Loven Obama. We should immediatly place a large order for attack Helicopters with the Russians and Fuck America.
We could even barter with the Russians. We give them the weapons we make for those they make and we give them all the American technology we have amassed as well. We could even sell them to China as well. Stupid Israelis don’t want to believe they are not wanted and loved anymore as if we were ( at all) once upon a time. Time to wake up and smell the coffee!
Comment by yamit82 — May 30, 2009 @ 3:31 pm
We all saw it coming with this scoundrel Obama!First off, I would kill Mazen and his whole family for his part in the 72 massacre!Secondly, I would appreciate if the bloggers on this site would quit referring to the Arabs as’”Palestinians!”As this lends creedence to their cause!
Comment by tov — May 30, 2009 @ 5:28 pm
Netanyahu must stand his ground. To all those liberal Jews who shilled for obama during the campaign, insuring that this marxist, closeted muslim really was a friend of Israel, what the hell do you have to say for yourselves now? People like wexler and nadler must be thrown out of office.
Comment by Laura — May 30, 2009 @ 5:56 pm
And the article Yamit posted shows Obama to be the most anti-Israel president ever as it actively works toward helping the arabs obliterate Israel.
Comment by Laura — May 30, 2009 @ 5:59 pm
Laura, you don’t mind if I submit your name as a canidate for some PR work in the US.
Someone soft spoke like you needs to rally the liberal American Jews who forgot they are Jewish.
Sugar coating it and silence is not getting anywhere.
Maybe it can begin with a “Proud to be a Jew day”.
A spark is need to ignite the fire.
I truly believe you could be that spark.
Yamit will back me on this.
Comment by rongrand — May 30, 2009 @ 6:56 pm
Funny thing is he as almost half Arab on his fathers side little Negro blood and his ancestors were Arab slave traders which should go over big in the Black and liberal communities. Ha Ha the jokes on them.
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/02/obama-arab-amer.html
http://kennethelamb.blogspot.com/2008/02/barak-obama-questions-about-ethnic.html
Spread the word maybe it will get legs. Doubtful but maybe?
Comment by yamit82 — May 30, 2009 @ 8:11 pm
Yamit - I’m glad you got around to that!!!! A few weeks ago on this blog, quite a few of us considered the possibility of the Israelis working with the Russians (and I believe the Chinese and Indians), and voluntarily shutting off America.
My belief is that this turn of events would make the US government nervous - assuming there’s still some sanity left in their heads. It would also cause a great deal of anger in the substantial proportion of Americans who still unconditionally support Israel. This anger would be directed at the current administration. The trick would be to inform the latter by Israel’s undertaking meetings with the appropriate heads of state. Where Bibi went to Obamaland, he should now start globetrotting to these other countries… and make it very obvious that he’s looking for a new bride.
Comment by keelie — May 30, 2009 @ 8:26 pm
UPDATED- Obama’s Call To Stop Settlements—>Its Different This Time, MUCH DIFFERENT
Posted: 29 May 2009 02:12 PM PDT
In her press conference on Wednesday, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton told journalists that the Obama administration “wants to see a stop to settlements — not some settlements, not outposts, not natural growth exceptions.”
On Thursday, President Obama stood with the “Moderate” Terrorist Leader Mahmoud Abbas calling for Israel to stop all settlement building including “Natural Growth.” As I have pointed out many times before, both President Bush and Secretary of State Rice have made similar statements over the past eight years. After talking to some of my contacts within Israel and those with intimate knowledge of what is happening within Israel, the reports are not good. This time it is different.
When Bush demanded that Israel stop all settlement activity, there was always a wink, wink at the end of it. The Bush administration would never protest too loudly as long as it was “natural growth.” Meaning contiguous adding on to existing settlements was OK. So if someone’s child got married, they could live in the same area as their parents…etc. My sources tell me that there is no “wink, wink.” Obama wants Israel to stop all settlement building PERIOD.
As Gary Ackerman (D-L.I.), chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on the Middle East and South Asia, told Stewart Ain of the NY Jewish Week:
“Internal [natrual] growth is not an obstacle — it is life,There is no moral equivalence between settlements and terrorist activity,” he said by phone shortly after leaving a 90-minute meeting with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in Tel Aviv.
“Bibi mentioned settlements,” Ackerman continued, using Netanyahu’s nickname. “He pointed out that unlike previous administrations that said they would not build them but built them, he is not building new settlements. But he has a position that you cannot stop people on the issue of internal growth.”
Ackerman said he subscribed to the position of a Kadima Knesset member, Otniel Schneller, who was quoted as saying: “I will not lend a hand to a dictate preventing my daughters from giving birth to my grandchildren.”
Sources say that Senator George Mitchell Obama’s Mideast envoy and national security adviser Gen. Jim Jones — see the Jewish settlements in the West Bank, home to some almost 300,000 people, as a key obstacle to getting a peace settlement. Of course this ignores the fact that the Palestinians including President Abbas still reject recognizing Israel as a Jewish State and that President Abbas is the leader of Fatah, who’s Al Aqsa Martyr’s Brigade is still committing terrorist attacks within Israel. Even if he wanted to make peace (which he doesn’t) Abbas does not have the legitimacy from his own people to sign an agreement. If he did there would have been an agreement with Prime Minister Olmert, who some sources offered Abbas an agreement that was even more favorable than the one Yassir Arafat was criticized for turning down. The reason for turning it down? Because he didn’t want to have to recognize Israel as a JEWISH state.
Here’s the real problem for the Jewish State, in past when Israel has faced problems with a sitting President they have taken their appeal to Congress. But this congress is not likely to go to bat for Israel for two reasons, President Obama is very popular and they are not likely to fight him on this issue especially when you consider that research and anecdotal evidence show the Democratic Party voter is no longer pro-Israel.
So Israel is left with a White House that will continue to pressure her toward one-sided concessions and a Congress that doesn’t have the political chops to stand up to the President.
The question is will Netanyahu stand up to Obama? That is still unknown. On one hand the composition of his coalition will demand that he does, but on the other hand one of the major reasons he was voted out of office in 1999 was his poor relationship with Bill Clinton. In fact, Bill Clinton sent James Carville to Israel to help Ehud Barak take the Prime Minister position away from Netanyahu.
Where all this will lead is unknown. What Is known is the era of “good feelings” between an Israel Prime Minister and a US President is ending. And all the worries that many of us had about Obama and the Jewish State, are about to become true.
UPDATE: Jackson Diehl wrote in the Washington Post a story that confirmed what I said last night about the deal that Olmert offered. Diehl hyped the right of return part more than it deserved, Olmert did not offer to overrun Israel with Palestinians, that would ensure that Israel would no longer be a Jewish State. While the move was big, it is not the earth shattering breakthrough that Diehl suggests.
In our meeting Wednesday, Abbas acknowledged that Olmert had shown him a map proposing a Palestinian state on 97 percent of the West Bank — though he complained that the Israeli leader refused to give him a copy of the plan. He confirmed that Olmert “accepted the principle” of the “right of return” of Palestinian refugees — something no previous Israeli prime minister had done — and offered to resettle thousands in Israel. In all, Olmert’s peace offer was more generous to the Palestinians than either that of Bush or Bill Clinton; it’s almost impossible to imagine Obama, or any Israeli government, going further.
As I reported last May Olmert agreed to accept was offering around a 100-150,000 Palestinians over a ten year period.
” a source I believe to be highly placed and reliable that Olmert and/or his surrogates not only are deep in the details of dividing Jerusalem but also are already agreeing in principle to a “Palestinian right of return”. The only specific I have heard is that they are contemplating about 100,000-150,000 but are considering whether spreading it out over 10 years will make it more palatable.
Here is what the Washington Post Article really shows, that Olmert made dangerous one-sided concessions and got nothing in return. That is why Bush put all the pressure on the Palestinians. So with Abbas refusing to budge, Why is Obama putting all the pressure on Israel?
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I call it a no sex dictate, no children no natural growth, no natural growth no need to expand settlements. Jews in the settlements must be celibate . Americas orders. Yes Masseh Yes Masseh! Obama is not only anti Israel he is anti Jewish!!!!
Comment by yamit82 — May 30, 2009 @ 8:34 pm
Ted,
Do you seriously want to know what’s going on? Or are you just fascinated with Yamit’s inane verbosity? I certainly don’t seem to be high on your list of people to listen to, since you agree with Y’s estimation that I am a “dirt bag” (the sort of thing a Jew ought not call a fellow Jew, but Yamit lets his lashon hara flow freely). Nevertheless, I will offer my humble opinion:
There is a striking difference between Obama, on the one hand, and G W Bush and Bill Clinton on the other. Bush and Clinton both lacked a vision of the world and where it’s headed. They were so enmeshed in the status quo, it was absolutely sickening. Carter, Reagan and even G H W Bush leave them in the dust in this department.
Reagan, of course, had a vision of the world that resonated with the ordinary American: He saw the world in terms of black and white, good and evil, Freedom and Communism. We were the guys in the white hats, and we would win.
Jimmy Carter was also visionary; but not only didn’t his vision touch base with mainstream America, it didn’t touch base with reality. He saw the world as divided between the “nice” and “not nice”, and he considered his own country as among the “not nice”. Unfortunately, I keep getting whiffs of him when I read about Obama.
George H W Bush had the unenviable job of trying to follow Reagan’s act. Not only did he lack Reagan’s charisma, but the world had suddenly changed on him. The Communist “bad guys” had suddenly collapsed, and the American people (whom I love and Yamit and you seem to hate) were at a loss for something to rally around. Our engagement with Sadaam was not about Kuwait, as far as Joe the Plumber’s ilk were concerned: It was about our getting our national balls back after having been nearly castrated by Jimmy Carter. But just because G H W B didn’t strike a chord with his electorate, that doesn’t mean he wasn’t a visionary. He correctly understood that the world had suddenly changed, and was grasping to create a “new world order”, a “Pax America” in which the US would orchestrate a new era of peace. Unfortunately, the world wouldn’t cooperate: Conflicts actually increased, around the world, and we found that we were no longer at war with a convenient, identifiable “bad guy”. We had enemies everywhere, but they were now all in our own “camp”. Like Jimmy Carter, Papa Bush had a vision, but it didn’t jibe with reality.
Enter Clinton and Bush, who impressed me as just a couple of executives interested in their own aggrandizement. They had no vision whatsoever: They couldn’t tell a Communist from a Capitalist, nor a Moslem from a Christian, and they didn’t have a clue about which way the world was headed. This obviously appealed to most Americans for sixteen years; but it gets old.
Obama ran for office during time of budding crisis, when the average American knew in his gut about ten times as much as anyone in Washington about what was happening in the world and where it was headed. They had a choice between a man of experience and proven character, who was unfortunately identified with the “Old Guard”, and someone who seemed to be hearing a different drummer. B H Obama certainly does listen to a different drummer. He’s a visionary. He really DOES have a plan of what to lead the world into. Of course, his vision is of the Carteresque variety, with an incredibly higher tab to pay; but it is a vision, and the whole world is starved for some leader with a vision.
THAT, Ted, is “what the hell is going on”. We are dealing with a man who doesn’t consult opinion polls, nor anything else, for that matter, before acting. He is guided by a star in his own head — a star which, unfortunately for us, doesn’t correspond to any star in the real universe. You are trying to get him to somehow fit in with reality, but he doesn’t live ther. He’s like Yamit, who thinks he’s living 2000 years ago and is surrounded by Romans. Fortunately, Yamit is not in a position of power; and unfortuneately, Obama is.
Obama cannot be reached by reasonable arguments, because his reasoning apparatus is malformed. Jimmy Carter saw the world in parochial Georgian terms: The whites (especially the Americans) were the oppressors, and everyone else were the oppressed. When the “oppressed” Iranians started humiliating and parading around American captives, Jimmy was in a real dilemna. He “knew” that the Americans were the “bad guys”, but the picture confused him and he was unable to act. Obama also sees the world in a distorted way, probably shaped by his background. To him, there is no “black” and “white”, and harmony between opposites is the most reasonable goal. When he’s confronted by the stark reality of deeply-ingrained, insoluble differences, he really can’t handle it: it confuses him, just as the hostage situation confused Carter.
Obama will not be dealt with by any reasoning process, but, like Carter, by hard reality. Fortunately for us and for Israel, we worship the One who controls hard reality, soft reality and every other kind of reality. Obama is like Brer Rabbit, sticking both hands and feet into the tar baby; and he will soon be in no position to dictate anything effectively to anyone, including Israel… God willing.
Comment by BlandOatmeal — May 30, 2009 @ 9:24 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxDwBYjL3Fc&feature=player_embedded
Comment by yamit82 — May 30, 2009 @ 10:43 pm
Yamit and Tov, I ask you to stop calling “settlements”. They are Israeli cities, towns and villages. Don’t give credence to the Arabs.
Comment by Ed D — May 30, 2009 @ 11:06 pm
Yamit and tov: you may call settlements by whatever you damn wish!! It is a free country. Don’t be intimidated by the word gestapos.
Comment by h peskin — May 31, 2009 @ 12:46 am
Submit to who?
Comment by Laura — May 31, 2009 @ 1:31 am
Submit to who?
Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
They are apparently in need of a good PR person.
I apologize for kind of acting stupid however I can’t understand the lackadaisical attitude of the American Jews at a time the Obama administration is trying to shove Israel under the bus.
They need a fire put under them.
They need to be outraged with this administration.
Right now they need to wear their Jewish on their sleeves.
They need to come together and get vocal, put pressure on Washington to back off this two state solution and support Israel.
The outrage you display at times is what they need
Their silence is deafening.
Comment by rongrand — May 31, 2009 @ 3:05 am
H peskin, I have to disagree with you on this one. Words do matter. Arafat was the one that coined the word ‘palestinians’ to refer to all the muslims that wanted Israeli land. Since he has been proven to be an arch-terrorist, do we really want to keep his master plan of defeating Israel alive?
Peoples and governments have used words to obfuscate the truth for centuries. Terrorists become gunmen or freedom fighters, Muslims become Asians or Arabs, suicide bombers become martyrs, traitors become the ‘legitimate resistance’, the war on terrorism becomes a war against a few bad guys that have hi-jacked the beautiful and peaceful islamic religion…the list goes on.
It seems to me that this site and all its respondents have one thing in common, the willingness to tell the bald faced truth as they see it. They do not share a willingness to perpetuate political correctness or to buy into a revisionist history promoting any countries willingness to obfuscate reality.
Using the word ‘settlements’ reinforces the muslim dream that legitimate Israeli homes, villages, towns and cities are temporary and will be forcibly removed at some later date. It reinforces the idea that what the muslims want, the muslims will eventually have.
It is my belief that there are ‘word gestapos’ that have insisted that we not call a spade a spade. That we pretend that almost all terrorist are not muslims. That most muslims do not want to take over the world, that islam is a peaceful religion. That islam has been hi-jacked by a militant few. We are asked to ignore that reality that all muslim terrorists quote from the koran to justify their actions. We are asked to ignore the fact that the koran demands that all other faiths be wiped off the planet. That there are no innocents, any and all can be justifiably be killed to further the ‘big plan’.
I refuse to go along with this way of thinking. I refuse to legitimize the muslim/islamic myths. If this means choosing my words carefully, then, by all means, I will do so.
H peskin, I hope that you reconsider your words. We all have freedom of choice. The choices we make, the words we use, make a tremendous impact on the people we communicate with. I do not want anyone to misunderstand what I say. Therefore I will go to some trouble to make sure what I say is what I mean. Do you not agree?
Comment by SarahSue — May 31, 2009 @ 4:02 am
SarahSue, your right on.
The snake by another name reptile is still a snake however having said that a terrorist is a terrorist plain and simple.
I always beloved Arafat was never interested in brokering peace. As far as I was concerned he was besides many things a terrorist, scum bag and a thief.
He and other terrorist groups use the Palestinian movement as a tool and they are too stupid to understand that.
Obama and his administration should think before they attempt to throw Israel under the bus.
With the likes of Iran and N. Korea breathing down his neck he cannot afford to loose a good and trusted ally like Israel.
Wake up Obama.
Comment by rongrand — May 31, 2009 @ 4:34 am
let me correct that.
I believed Arafat was never interested in brokering a peace with Israel. He used the Palestinians and stold their money.
Now Hamas is using them.
None of the characters using the Palestinians are really interested in peace. That would defeat their purpose.
Now, why doesn’t the rest of the world see this?????
Comment by rongrand — May 31, 2009 @ 4:49 am
And now, [you] kings, be wise; be admonished, [you] judges of the earth.
Tehillim - Psalms - Chapter 2
Chapter 2
Tehillim - Psalms - Chapter 83
For behold, Your enemies stir, and those who hate You raise their heads.
4. Against Your people they plot cunningly, and they take counsel against Your protected ones.
5. They said, “Come, let us destroy them from [being] a nation, and the name of Israel will no longer be remembered.”
6. For they have taken counsel with one accord; against You they form a pact.
Seems King David faced similar problems, and said it better than all of us.
Comment by yamit82 — May 31, 2009 @ 7:56 am
To be fair, Psalm 83 was written by King David’s choirmaster, Asaph Ha’Levi, most likely a prophet.
As an aside, a reminder of Psalm 83 in the news 3 years ago, during Israel’s war in Lebanon.
Comment by Shy Guy — May 31, 2009 @ 1:24 pm
right shy but here I was referring to Jewish Tradition and not the actual authorship. Psalms 50 and 73-83 are associated with Asaph, as the master of his choir, to be sung in the worship of G-d.
Psalm 50
10. For all the beasts of the forest are Mine, the behemoth of the thousand mountains.
11. I know all the fowl of the mountains, and the creeping things of the field are with Me.
12. If I were hungry I would not tell you, for the world and its fullness are Mine.
13. Will I eat the flesh of bulls or do I drink the blood of he-goats?
14. Slaughter for God a confession and pay the Most High your vows.
15. And call to Me on a day of distress; I will rescue you and you will honor Me.
16. But to the wicked man God said, “For what reason do you recount My statutes, and bring up My covenant on Your mouth?
17. For you hated discipline and threw My words behind you.
18. If you saw a thief, you agreed [to be] with him, and with adulterers is your portion.
19. You let loose your mouth for evil, and you accustomed your tongue to deceit.
20. You sit and talk against your brother; you slander your mother’s son.
21. You did these and I remained silent; you thought that I would be like you. I will contend with you and set up before your eyes.
22. Understand this now, you who forget God, lest I tear [you] to pieces, and there will be no one to save [you].
23. One who slaughters a confession sacrifice honors Me, and [I will] prepare the way; I will show him the salvation of God.”
Yes, probably a Prophet.
Comment by yamit82 — May 31, 2009 @ 2:52 pm
Quite right SarahSue, especially with the irony of this nonsense coming from Americans living in what used to be Indian (and/or Spanish) territory.
That’s why I suggested last week that the Israelis should name their “settlements” Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles, etc., etc. Perhaps doing this and heavily publicizing it, would send a “cut out the hypocrisy” message to the braying masses.
Comment by keelie — May 31, 2009 @ 5:01 pm
When I googled Yamit, I saw an image of an Israeli soldier prying a young Jewish boy from his home and it brought tears to my eyes. I know if I would’ve served in the IDF, I would have refused this duty and actively protested this on truly moral grounds. This behaviour has always disgusted me. My sister served for two years back in the early 90’s but never had this duty. The sad thing is it keeps reoccuring. Do we know no shame!
Comment by tov — May 31, 2009 @ 7:01 pm
And moreover, I saw under the sun, [in] the place of justice, there is wickedness, and [in] the place of righteousness, there is wickedness.
I said to myself, “God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every matter and for every deed there.”
I said to myself, [that this is] because of the children of men, so that God should clarify for them, so that they may see that they are [like] beasts to themselves.
Kohelet - Ecclesiastes - Chapter 3
Comment by yamit82 — May 31, 2009 @ 7:19 pm
Yamit, you know I am not a student of the ME.
What I find distrubting the rest of the world including the US is attempting to dictate to the Israelis as what areas of Israel they are allowed or permitted to occupy.
Thats is outrages.
First and foremost it is not up to them to make any determination with respects to Israel.
All of isreal including Jerusalem should not be divided period.
This is what outrages Laura and friends here at Israpundit.
This is suppose to outrage the American Jews and it’s not.
Do they not know what is going on with Israel, are they deaf and blind?
If anyone is connected to any American Jewish organization please start running full page adds in the newspapers “Wake up, get involved G-d provided the land and there are those who want to take it away”
Please, get outraged with this Obama administration. Write to you congress and senate. Let them know you are outraged.
Comment by rongrand — May 31, 2009 @ 8:04 pm
Ed, maybe you miss read my comments. I am for calling them Arabs not Palestinians, and for sure not settlers, only Jewish Israeli citizens. They are front line defenders of the faith. Sderaot, Askelon are the true defenders of the Jewish state. Ronen, may his soul ascend, was a true fighter. We, meaning Jews have the most tolerant and forgiving way of life. We want peace and prosperity. We want all the nations of the world to do well, problem is, they don’t either want to or hate us, or both. When I was in the Eretz as a 17 yr old back in 83, I was crossing a street in Jerusalem, an Israeli motorist was driving recklessly, and the two boys with me shot him the bird. The Israeli promptley screeched to a halt as the the two spoiled Jewish boys hurled insults at the driver. The Israeli motorist slapped one of the boys and drove off. At that point, I had an epiphany, I felt proud that the motorist did what he did. This was a strong Israeli, living in a volatile world would not take shit from spoiled kids. After all he was defending the homeland! Now, flash forward 26 yrs later I believe this more than ever!
Comment by tov — May 31, 2009 @ 10:01 pm
one more comment, the Serbs are like us, they we me, as I have Serbian blood, have been so disparaged, yet they fought the treacherous Croatians and Muslims, yet risked their lives to save Jews etc. Mr. Clinton and all, murdered many of them. I was vastly disappointed at “Our” Jewish support for this! There are many,”Jewish entities that supported this bullshit, believing the media. I am totally ashamed at this! Read the facts! Slobedan was not the enemy, but Izbec, or whatever was!
Comment by tov — May 31, 2009 @ 10:29 pm
tov: Boy are you off base.
Comment by h peskin — June 1, 2009 @ 5:01 am
We shouldn’t blame Tov his mother I think is Serbian, so he can’t be objective like Peskin.
Stratrford, is correct re: Serbs and Jews. The only European country where Jews fared well before, during and after the Nazis was Bulgaria.
Serbian anti-semetism
From the period of the 12th century C.E. until the mid-18th century, Jews in Serbia were generally treated well. They were traders mainly involved in selling salt. By the end of the Turkish rule over Serbia, Jewish tradesmen were largely responsible for the trade route between the northern and southern ends of the lands ruled by the Turks.
In 1804, the Serbs waged a war against the Turks for their independence. In response to the violent revolt, many Jews moved to Zemun and created their own community there. In support of the wars of independence, Jews supplied the Serbs with weapons, and in return, Jews faced brutal attacks by the Turks. The wars of independence lasted until 1830 when the Serbs gained the right to self-rule.
The new Serbian government was not as friendly in their relations with Jewish citizens. In fact, by 1831, the Serbs had already begun to prohibit Jews from certain professions. Prince Milosh Obrenovich tried to improve the Jewish situation, but he was overtaken by the Karageorgevich family in 1842. The new dynasty sympathized with non-Jewish merchants and, by 1845, the Serbian Jews had been prevented from participating in even the most basic of professions such as tailoring.
In 1856, Jews were expelled from provincial towns. Prince Milosh Obrenovich reclaimed his role as ruler and again Jews were hopeful of their situation. By 1860, however, Milosh’s son was ruling and he followed the ways of the Karageorgevich rulers. Non-Jewish merchants were again favored and Jewish Serbs were prohibited from the mercantile industry.
The inconsistency of the laws regarding Jews continued through the end of the 19th century. In 1861, for example, a decree that called for the expulsion of sixty Jewish families was retracted after one month. In its place, a law was written to allow Jews freedom to practice professions within their own communities. At the same time that the government declared an emancipation of all Serbian citizens, it also reverted back to past discriminatory laws against Jews. The Serbian parliament did not lift its restrictions on Jewish citizens until 1889. Because of blatant Serbian anti-Semitism, the Jewish population in the area decreased each year. In 1912, 5,000 Jews remained in Serbia. Jews in the region began to give their support to the Zionist cause. Sephardic communities, in particular, were influenced by Zionist ideals.
By 1941, the Jewish population in Serbia was approximately 12,000. While there was a long tradition of anti-Semitism throughout the republic, the Nazi regime brought with them an official decree against Jews. German troops occupied the city of Belgrade and began to destroy Jewish homes, stores, and synagogues. Jews were quickly forced to register themselves with the government and registered Jews were required to wear yellow identifying stars. An organization of non-Jewish Serbs was created to help control the “Jewish Problem”.
While it was at first sufficient to subject Serbian Jews to forced labor, by the end of the summer in 1941, the Nazis had sent 2,500 to a concentration camp outside Belgrade. 8,000 Jewish men who lived in and around Serbia were brought to this same concentration camp. It became clear that none of the Jews would be leaving the camp. Forty-five hundred of the prisoners were killed by gunfire between August and October of 1941.
The former Yugoslavia was liberated in 1944. Throughout the entire region, only 14,000 Jews returned. The Jews wasted no time, and the Federation of Jewish Communities was quickly opened. Many of the Jewish communities throughout Yugoslavia were reclaimed. Currently, 2,500 Jews live in the area of Serbia and Montenegro.
While many Jews have left Serbia and Montenegro, their monuments and synagogues remain. One synagogue is particularly well-known both for its beauty and for its present state of devastation. The Subotica Synagogue is located in the city of Subotica. The synagogue was built in 1902, and while its beauty remains, it is in need of major renovations. The synagogue is one of the last architectural structures built in the Secessionist style of the early 1900s. The World Monuments Fund listed the Subotica Synagogue as one of the 100 most endangered memorial sites. Both the World Monuments Fund and the Jews of Serbia and Montenegro are attempting to restore the Subotica Synagogue and are asking for donations from the international community.
Comment by yamit82 — June 1, 2009 @ 2:52 pm
Antisemetism in Serbia Today
Anti-Semitism Raises its Head in Serbia
Though very small in number, Serbia’s Jewish community is being increasingly targeted by an array of ultra-nationalist groups.
By Dragana Nikolic-Solomon and Ljubisa Ivanovic in Belgrade (BCR No 544, 04-Mar-05)
The slogans hint at a future settling of accounts. “Juden Raus”, “Achtung Juden”, “Jews out of Serbia” and “Death to Jews and Gipsies”, they proclaim, the words providing a chilling echo of the Holocaust that decimated European Jewry more than half a century ago. But few Jews actually see these slogans in Serbia today. Providing ample proof of the claim that anti-Semitism doesn’t need Jews to flourish, the latest wave of anti-Semitism in Serbia has broken over a community that is a shadow of its former self. The community is now down to a tiny 3,000 or so among Serbia’s total population of around eight million, and in the 2002 census only about 1,200 people declared themselves Jewish.
Most Serbs have never even met a Jew. Even before the Second World War, the community was small, making up 0.45 per cent of the population. After the Holocaust and the migration of most survivors to Israel, the figure has dwindled further to 0.3 per cent. But while few Jews remain, anti-Semitism is flourishing. Many bookstores stock copies of the infamous Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, the early 20th-century book from Russia that fraudulently claimed to reveal a Jewish conspiracy against the world’s non-Jewish, and especially Christian, population. More disturbingly, a list of prominent Serbian Jews was recently posted on the website of a neo-Nazi organisation, alongside messages posted by site visitors calling for them to be killed. Although Stormfront is a German group, most Serbian commentators conclude that they could only have obtained this list with the help of Serbian colleagues. The list includes prominent activists and artists, such as the head of the Belgrade Fund for Political Excellence, Sonja Licht, actor Predrag Ejdus, singer Djordje David, marketing expert Srdjan Saper and the head of the Union of Jewish Communities, Aca Singer.
A catalogue of anti-Semitic literature in Serbian, which it says “every National Socialist and racially aware nationalist should read” is contained on the site on a page named “Serbian National Socialist Library”. Among the recommended texts is an article entitled “Jews – the Enemies of the Balkan Peoples.” Professor Ratko Bozovic, a sociologist at Belgrade University, told IWPR, “These incidents are not isolated. They are part of a growing phenomenon.” Other experts agree that Serbia is becoming a hotbed of extreme racist ideologies - partly a consequence of a decade of warfare under Slobodan Milosevic, when the media painted Croats, Muslims and Albanians as the demonic enemies of innocent Serbs.
At the beginning of the wars in Yugoslavia, the regime initially tried to link Serbs and Jews as joint victims of fascism during the Second World War, promoting the activities of front organisations such as the Serbian-Jewish Friendship Society. But when this initiative failed to achieve the desired result internationally, anti-Jewish propaganda began to circulate, including claims that Serbs were falling victim to a Jewish lobby in Washington.
This propaganda reached a climax during the 1999 NATO air strikes over Kosova, when Jews in President Bill Clinton’s administration were accused of being behind a master-plan to bomb Serbia. Bozo Prelevic, a Belgrade lawyer, says belief in an anti-Serb conspiracy among the Jews is a legacy of the Milosevic era, when the regime media began to list Jews and Freemasons among all the other schemers plotting Serbia’s misfortunes. Even after democratic parties took power in October 2000, Serbian society continued to blame others for its problems, Professor Bozovic says - regardless of whether these others are Roma, Jews, Albanians, Americans, the Hague tribunal or rich investors, whom many see as economic colonisers.
A casual surf of right-wing web sites in Serbia reveals an abundance of anti-Semitic literature and propaganda.
The site of the Serbian Defence League, an organisation which says its mission is to document the Zionist “genocide against the Serbs”, features the claim that “research has uncovered that Jews in position of power were conspiring to break up Yugoslavia into states friendly with Israel, because it needed their votes in the UN Security Council”.
The organisation claims Jews were directly responsible for NATO’s bombing of Serbia in the late Nineties. “The Jews introduced resolutions [to the UN] to bomb the Serbs and make them pay for what Israel is doing to Moslems,” it says. The Serbian Defence League says Jews have “stolen the Serbian holocaust” because “the biggest genocide in World War II was committed against the Serbs in Nazi Croatia, and not against the Jews in Germany”.
Aca Singer, veteran leader of the diminished Jewish community in Serbia, says the wave of hostile graffiti, as well as the threatening messages on various websites, are a cause for concern. The community has now filed six criminal-law cases against the perpetrators but there is little hope that anything will be done. The websites are located abroad, so neither the police nor the courts can take action and there is no law penalising the propagation of hatred on the internet. Singer says it is significant that anti-Semitic incidents have increased since the fall of the Milosevic regime in October 2000. He believes this may be because the advent of democracy has released feelings about Jews that were previously well concealed.
“In the past five years over a hundred anti-Semitic books have been published in Serbia,” said Singer.
“Some of the latest are ‘The Serbs In The Claws Of The Jew’ and ‘Jewish Ritual Murder’. The latter, published by IHTUS Christian Books, says
Jews kill Christian children in order to knead bread with their blood.”
The IHTUS web site features copious amounts of anti-Semitic literature and calumnies. An article entitled “Ritual Murder among Jews” repeats all the old medieval libels against Jews as killers of innocent Christians. “When a ritual murder is carried out for [the Jewish feast of] Purim,” it says, “then the victim is usually a grown-up Christian. “This blood is then dried and mixed with baking powder to make triangular cakes…. It is possible to use the dried blood left over from the murder at Purim for the upcoming Passover festival.”
The IHTUS publishing house is a privately-owned company, whose headquarters are in Zabalj in Vojvodina, the northern province of Serbia.
Publisher in chief Ratibor Djurdjevic was a member of a right-wing, pre-Second World War organisation named Dimitrije Ljotic. After emigrating to the US, Djurdjevic returned to Serbia in 1990.
Djurdjevic expounds his views on the website, claiming his books are important for Serbs and Christians because they disclose information about “the powerful, but unrecognised rulers of the world – Jewish bankers. They are the most important collaborators of Satan in his evil enterprise against Jesus Christ.”
He adds that these unnamed Jewish bankers have brought much evil to the Serbs, having “started the war against the Serbs; provided assistance to the disintegrating forces in Yugoslavia; set Bosnia on fire; imposed a cruel embargo on Serbia and Montenegro; armed the Croats and Muslims… [and] demonised Serbs all over the world”.
The Serbs are an obstacle to the forces of Jewish conquest in the Balkans, he argues. Djurdjevic’s site promises future publications in a similar vein.
IWPR tried to contact Djurdjevic, using the email and telephone number listed on his website, but without success.
However, Branislav Jakovljevic, a director of IHTUS, told IWPR that their books did not accuse all Jews of crimes against Christians, merely some.
“It is a sin to accuse all Jews,” he said. “Amongst them there are ordinary people who haven’t sinned against God.” The problem begins, he added, with “the European and American media who are run by Jewish bankers and who are responsible for creating a bad image of Serbs”.
Anti-Semitism in Serbia is not limited to discussions on foreign-registered websites and slogans painted anonymously on walls, however.
It reaches young people through organisations such as Obraz, which target students and other young people with their hardline nationalist message.
Obraz, which means “Honour” is a right-wing movement preaching allegiance to the Serbian Orthodox Church and to Serbdom in general and encouraging passionate hostility to a list of what it calls enemies of the nation and the church. Mladen Obradovic, president of Obraz, told IWPR that Obraz’s core values were love of God and good will to people, regardless of where they come from. But their website tells a different story. A mission statement on the site contains a strongly-worded “Proclamation to the Enemies of Obraz”, who are defined as “Zionists, converts to Islam, Ustashe [Croat fascists], democrats, false pacifists, perverts, criminals and drug addicts”.
The above groups “shall be justly punished, because they should not be allowed to ruin the health of Serbian youth”, the proclamation adds menacingly.
Obradovic was more nuanced in describing Obraz’s stance on Jews to IWPR.
“Because we are Christians, we cannot and do not want to hide the truth that many Euro-Atlantic powerful people of Jewish origin have revealed themselves as open enemies of the Serbian people,” he said.
“Differentiating between enemies and friends cannot be called anti-Semitism,” he added. According to Obradovic, the only people in danger in Serbia today were the Serbs themselves.
How far such views reach down to ordinary people is open to question.
According to a survey in 2003 by the Belgrade Centre for Studying Alternatives, a think-tank specialising in tracking public opinion, anti-Semitism was more widespread than many once thought.
Nine per cent of respondents openly declared themselves as anti-Semites, while another 31 per cent said they were undecided, the survey said.
Many people on the street seem confused in their understanding of history and ready to blame Jews for their country’s recent setbacks.
One taxi driver told IWPR that “Hitler was Jewish and the fact that they [the Nazis] killed millions of their own people is evidence of how bad they are”.
He said Jews were responsible for the destruction of Yugoslavia because “Tito was Jewish”. He added, “The Jews wanted to destroy Yugoslavia for their own economic interests”.
Another woman interviewed on the street said Jews exaggerated the dangers of anti-Semitism for their own benefit. “Jews use anti-Semitism on purpose to gain privileges for themselves,” she said.
According to Belgrade University professor of psychology Zarko Trebjesanin, anti-Semitism appeals to the many losers in Serbia’s troubled society.
“Anti-Semites are people who feel unfulfilled, so they often identify strongly with their own race,” he said. “These people suffer from inferiority complexes and seek an identity in the collective, embracing extremist theories in the process.”
Trebjesanin pointed out that many Serbs had died while trying to save the Jews from the Holocaust, “The Yad Vashem Centre in Jerusalem has cited 113 names from Serbia among the 19,141 righteous”, a reference to the people honoured for saving Jews.
While the websites continue churning out their poison, most of Serbia’s remaining Jews say they feel calm, while calling for the government to react more firmly.
Aca Singer says the current legal penalties against the dissemination of hate-filled views are too weak.
“The penal code should include a provision on anti-Semitism as a criminal offence,” he said.
Serbia’s poor economic situation is one factor behind the upsurge of anti-Semitism, he added.
“Jews have been suspected by many nations throughout history. Particularly so if you take into account the deeply-rooted belief that the Jews control global financial and political developments.”
Dragana Nikolic-Solomon is IWPR country director for Serbia and Montenegro. Ljubisa Ivanovic works for the Belgrade daily Politika
Comment by yamit82 — June 1, 2009 @ 3:04 pm
For You Peskin:
So we see that Serbia despite some hundred or so righteous Gentiles was and is as anti Jewish,m as the rest of Europe and Russia and Ukraine. In the conflict between Serbia and Kosovo, there is little doubt that the historical and cultural rights were on the side of Serbia and that America and Europe put the royal screws to them. It has been said by many that Kososvo to the Serbs is akin to Jerusalem to the Jews. Maybe in a national sense but certainly not in a religious or spiritual sense. It has been said here by some that we should support Serbia because they helped save Jews and were most considerate to their Jews during the Nazi occupation? Here the historical record is mixed. Then there weren’t all that many Jews in Serbia to be considerate of and there never were.
It has been said that we should support Serbia because they are like us. In some ways yes,in most no. We should learn from what Nato and America did to the Serbs as a preview of coming attractions her. Maybe some truth to that be then we aren’t Serbia. I would like to see them try it. Guarantee that the results will not be the same.
One truth came out of Nato’s war against Serbia and that is it proved that the Liberal West is as fascist as the Nazis and almost as brutal. Both the Nazis and the West were Leftist variety of Fascism while Mussolini the god father of modern fascism was of the nationalist variety. See if you can see the similarities between Clinton and Obama, Peskin with Hitler:
Hitler was a Leftist
http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist/index.html
Hitler was a Leftist
Nazi Gun Control
http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist/id14.html
“The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let’s not have any native militia or native police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order throughout the occupied Russian territories, and a system of military strong-points must be evolved to cover the entire occupied country.” –Adolf Hitler, dinner talk on April 11, 1942, quoted in Hitler’s Table Talk 1941-44: His Private Conversations, Second Edition (1973), Pg. 425-426. Translated by Norman Cameron and R. H. Stevens. Introduced and with a new preface by H. R. Trevor-Roper. The original German papers were known as Bormann-Vermerke.
Hitler was a Leftist
Hitler’s Leftist Economic Policies
http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist/id10.html
Description: The author focuses on the main Nazi work creation programs like motorization, Autobahn, emergency relief, and rearmament. He stresses on the fact that most work creation from the period 1933-1936 was not a result of rearmament rather a fierce attack on employment through some of the methods mentioned above. In addition, the growing control of the Nazi party over all aspects of the economy is clearly identified in every chapter as this control grows. The book is loaded with information.
Professor Silverman argues, as a result of impressive research in Nazi archives, that it was work creation programs that account for this “miracle” and it was the 4-year Plan announced in 1936 that represented an emphasis on autarky and arms and a seller’s market. Plans called for motorization and the famous autobahns. It is natural to compare Hitler’s achievements with FDR’s New Deal. Strangely Silverman hardly mention the USSR as a source of ideas in the Hitler years, though the 4-year Plan itself was inspired by the Soviet FYP, the second of which was being completed by the time Goebbels began administering the German equivalent. Earlier (February,1935) Soviet-type “work books” necessary for employment were introduced.
Hitler was named “Man of the Year” in 1938 by Time Magazine. They noted Hitler’s anti-capitalistic economic policies:
“Most cruel joke of all, however, has been played by Hitler & Co. on those German capitalists and small businessmen who once backed National Socialism as a means of saving Germany’s bourgeois economic structure from radicalism. The Nazi credo that the individual belongs to the state also applies to business. Some businesses have been confiscated outright, on other what amounts to a capital tax has been levied. Profits have been strictly controlled. Some idea of the increasing Governmental control and interference in business could be deduced from the fact that 80% of all building and 50% of all industrial orders in Germany originated last year with the Government. Hard-pressed for food- stuffs as well as funds, the Nazi regime has taken over large estates and in many instances collectivized agriculture, a procedure fundamentally similar to Russian Communism.”
(Source: Time Magazine; Jaunuary 2, 1939.)
Peskin do you see any similarity here with Obama?
There is a lot more like anti cigarette smoking policies, animal rights similarly to todays, pro Life(anti abortion)
Modern Leftism Recycled As Fascism
http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist/id8.html
A Leftist prophet
The ideas of Benito Mussolini (1883-1945), the founder of Fascism, are remarkably similar to the ideas of modern-day Western Leftists. If Mussolini was not the direct teacher of modern-day Leftists, he was certainly a major predecessor. What Leftists advocate today is not, of course, totally identical with what Mussolini was advocating and doing 60 to 80 years ago in Italy but there are nonetheless extensive and surprising parallels. Early in the 20th century, he prophesied that the 20th century would be the century of Fascism and he got that right in that most of his ideas are still preached by the modern-day Left.
Tutto nello Stato, niente al di fuori dello Stato, nulla contro lo Stato,
Everything in the state,nothing outside the state, nothing against the state. or Everything for the state, nothing outside the state, nothing above the state.” So Benito Mussolini trumpeted the ideal of fascism. Sort like what Obama is chasing after!
This is what Hillary Clinton meant when she described herself as a PROGRESSIVE! Henry Ford was a follower, Woodrow Wilson as well as the bulk of the American intellectual and Capitalistic elite. Nothing much has changed since except terminology and frames of reference.
Comment by yamit82 — June 1, 2009 @ 4:45 pm
can someone please tell rongrand why so many American Jews, especially below the age of 45, do NOT see Israel as their home??? It is like talking to stone walls with these assimilated youngsters. They do not believe there is Jew hatred in America. And, the “settlements” are the part they delusionally think is the problem, which is why Obama&Co are so focussed on “settlements”.
maybe Iran will launch another long range missile when Obama is in Cairo next week.
Netanyahu needs to tell Washington to fix America first, and stay out of Israel’s business. At the rate the Dems are going, they will lose the House in 2010.
Israel needs to shift to India and China. In my opinion, America is no longer a reliable ally. and Jews are not even safe in New York.
Comment by Birdalone — June 1, 2009 @ 11:35 pm
Birdalone, I have been saying this for some time.
Interesting when a failing business (the US) has the nerve to tell another business (Israel) how to run theirs.
Outside of National defense, our military the government can’t run anything.
Now we are in the automobile business and you can imagine what kind of automobiles that will be available.
Hang on to whatever you have; it may be the best thing on the road soon.
This Muslim anti-Semitic president and his cronies’ are in the process of destroying the free enterprise as we know it, a system that made America great.
It won’t be long those who elected this person (community organizer) are going to face one nasty hangover that just won’t go away for awhile.
I once told Yamit that all Jewish youngsters should spend some time in Israel to see and be in the land G-d provided the Jews. Just maybe this will energize them.
Comment by rongrand — June 2, 2009 @ 12:13 am
Guardian of Zion Award Lecture
Please, I want your comment on this.
She is a great American and a great Israel, G-d/God Bless her.
She can inspire non-Jews.
I recommned this to be read at every synegouge in the US.
I just may instill some pride in the liberal Ameridan Jews who forgot they are Jewish.
If I weren’t so old I would travel to Israel and sign up in the IDF. (right now I would be more of a liability and they have enough of that).
Yamit I think you will be proud of her.
Comment by rongrand — June 2, 2009 @ 12:42 am
Yamit:
Being deemed leftist in Nazi Germany prior and during the 2nd world war provided you with a one way ticket to the major Club- Meds of that day- Buchenwald, Dachau, Auchwitz.
Even though the Nazis incorporated some socialist elements in their economic philosophy, on balance it was a Rightist movemnt. The industrialist were courted- unions, social democrats, liberal groups, Communists, were all banned, arrested and often executed. Being Jewish was equated with the hated international Bolshevist movement. Globally, the nazis combined forces with the extreme Right Wing associations and governments of the day. The Franco rebels in Spain,and the antisemetic movements in countless countries were all strongly Right wing. And even the neo nazis of today are very much on the far right. So yamit, as hard as you try you cannot confuse left from right. The extreme fundamentalist Arab regimes of today such as Saudi arabia are very conservative in their orientation.
And when I here the strident rants of Laura (your current squeeze, I believe) am very much reminded of GOOD OLD ADOLPH-of blessed memory.
Comment by h peskin — June 2, 2009 @ 1:52 am
Yanit:
Being deemed leftist in Nazi Germany prior and during the 2nd world war provided you a one way ticket to the major Club Meds of that day- Buchenwald, Dachau, Auchwitz.
Even though the Nazis incorporated some socialist elements in their economic philosophy, on balance it was a Rightist movemnt. The industrialist were courted- unions, social democrats, liberal groups, Communists, were all banned, arrested and often executed. Being Jewish was equated with the hated international Bolshevist movement. Globally, the nazis combined forces with the extreme Right Wing associations and governments of the day. The Franco rebels in Spain,and the antisemetic movements in countless countries were all strongly Right wing. And even the neo nazis of today are very much on the far right. So yamit, as hard as you try you cannot confuse left from right. The extreme fundamentalist Arab regimes of today such as Saudi arabia are very conservative in their orientation.
Comment by h peskin — June 2, 2009 @ 2:07 am
Yamit- as an after thought to my prior post.
During the 2nd world war the allied forces, Great Britain, Canada and the U.S. tragically lost approximately 800,000 troops.
The leftist Soviet Union lost-military and civilian- some 27 million- give or take a million.
Comment by h peskin — June 2, 2009 @ 2:22 am
Peskin’s post 31 is pure divide and conquer nazi propaganda. Julia Gorin, Jared Israel, FGW, and others have written extensive articles on this issue, and it not the Serbs that are the nazis, it is the ‘bosniaks’/bosnian jihadists. Same now as it was then.
Jared Israel documents quite clearly the blatant historical revisionism that the US State Department engaged in as it cozied up to the Islamist and Croation nazis Izetbegovic and Tudjman, while lying entirely about Milosevic’s speech at Kosovo field in 1989. Said speech can be read online with a lexis nexis account. I do believe I’ll trust Jared Israel’s documentation a bit more than anything Peskin has to say.
One of the guys on Serbianna (Savich I think) recently wrote an article stating with unequivocal evidence that the US and our allies deliberately revived the SS Handzar in Bosnia (kind of like the way the US has been propping it up in fatahstan for 50+ years). Peskin is nothing more than the gullible student of the agitprop and big-lies used by the countries that engage in such policy.
Serbs choose war: http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/mitchell.html
The book ‘The forgotten 500′ also details the fact that it was the Serbs that saved US airmen, while the croats/bosnians served as nazi lapdogs.
Are there antisemitic Serbs? Definitely some. When the US was pulverizing their country, it made sure to let them know that it was the work of slimey neocon Jews, and the ‘Jew’ Albright and ‘Jew’ Wesley Clark.
Comment by jrob — June 2, 2009 @ 8:32 am
I think your statistic includes those Russians murdered by Stalin or under Stanlins directives and orders. Estimates range from 10-20 million but the real number will never be known. So much for your leftist Stalin workers utopia. Who killed more Stalin or Hitler is open to debate but really who cares?
Accurate estimates are hard to come by, but according to the Dorling Kindersley Atlas of World History(which is as good a source as any) there were approx. 13.5 million Red Army/partisan deaths in the USSR(including 3.6 million Soviet POWs that died in German captivity). Given that the widely accepted total is 23 million(not inc. Stalin’s murders in that period), the civilian dead numbers about 10 million.
If you are trying to say here that the Soviets were paragons of virtue due to the imbalance of deaths in their favor over the allies I would suggest that you check your ideological relevantist moral compass, as numbers of victims give no moral superiority over any other. That the Russians were fighting on their own home turf added immensely to to casualty numbers. That the philosophy of battle on the Russians side was to sacrifice waves after wave of human fodder on the alter of defending the Motherland. For the Russians the sacrificing of human lives was a strategic weapon of choice. That said the contribution of the Russians in defeating the Nazis was as if not greater at least as great as all the other allies. That’s why FDR, supported the Russians to the extent that he did. Every Russian death was an ally saved. Every German killed was a German less the allies had to fight. Hitlers greatest mistake was his invasion of Russia.
That The Nazis equated with the Jews as part of the communist opposition and as for them an enemy of the state is a given but not only Jews were communist and not even most of them. I didn’t seem him liquidating the communists in France and most of Europe under his rule. Some for sure but it was not genocidal. You cannot equate the right left divide then with the right left divide of today. Same words, same terminology different meanings. It’s my contention that todays left is not the left of the period but actually the fascist right in all but name. In that contention you have not rebutted.
Comment by yamit82 — June 2, 2009 @ 10:38 am
jrob,
It is interesting to see all those Balkan and Slavic countries attempting to whitewash their pasts and rewrite history. Problem with Gorin is that she is too selective and her objectivity is certainly questioned. Jared Israel is even worse as a source considering his radical communist credentials. There is a big difference between taking sides in the historical Balkan disputes and the historical conflicts with Albania over Kosovo,or whether the Serbs had a distinguished fascist history or not. They did and still have! It is another thing altogether to whitewash Serbian antisemitism still going strong and claim otherwise. All the more so since Jews never made up any significant population numbers in Serbia and don’t today as well. Antisemitism without Jews is really a pathological inbred syndrome. That it exists at all in places with virtually no Jews like Serbia is the stuff made for sociologists and psychologists. That said I see no reason for any Jew to concern themselves over the plight of Serbia or any other Balkan and European entity . A POX ON ALL THEIR COLLECTIVE HOUSES, as far as I am concerned.
Comment by yamit82 — June 2, 2009 @ 11:03 am
Guardian of Zion Award Lecture
Yamit, I don’t see any comment.
Don’t let me down.
Comment by rongrand — June 2, 2009 @ 11:56 am
Yamit, you mentioned “Problem with Gorin is that she is too selective and her objectivity is certainly questioned. Jared Israel is even worse as a source considering his radical communist credentials. There is a big difference between taking sides in the historical Balkan disputes and the historical conflicts with Albania over Kosovo,or whether the Serbs had a distinguished fascist history or not. They did and still have! ”
You sound like the same folk that dismiss those that tell the truth about Israeli history because they are ‘pro Israel’. There are no inconsistencies nor absurdities in the work of Gorin or Israel. They trace through the facts of WWII up until today. How is the ‘forgotten 500′ even possible if you are telling the truth? You seem to be merely using meaningless labels (a handy propaganda device used to prevent people from thinking) instead of actually examining who is telling the truth and who is not.
Who do you think was killed at Jasenovac? Who was forcibly converted to Catholicism? Why is it that the Serbs are the only group that has had their holocaust numbers deliberately shrunk by the US government, because this is how we ‘rehabilitate’ the WWII killers. There was a woman named Klara Mandic that worked for Serbian-Jewish unity, and she was brutally murdered. If she was just spewing historical revisionism, why would she be murdered? Au contraire, it is the supporters of the Ustashi and Handzar that are spewing all the lies. They lie about all of their victims, which includes the ones in Serbia, as well as the Jewish ones. Did Serbian nazis move to Palestine to kill Jews in 1948? No because the number of Serbian nazis was minimal as their people rejected the nazis. It was the Bosnian Nazis that moved to palestine to kill Jews (as documented by Seth J. Frantzman).
It will take more than meaningless ‘commie’ labels to dismiss the work of JI,Gorin, FGW, et al. And it is quite sad that you would believe the quasi-Jew Peskin on *anything*.
Comment by jrob — June 2, 2009 @ 2:17 pm
jrob lets not mix apples and oranges. I personally have no axes to grind in Balkin history one way or another. I have stated many times here on Israpundit that I sympathize even empathize with the Serbs to whom I agree got a real screwing over by Clinton and company. That said I am aware of the general historical record of Serbia and how the Jews were treated historically and that for me is a leveling factor in my opinions re: the Serbs then and today. That the Fascists had and still do have an influence in Serbia also conditions how I view them. That antisemitism in Serbia whether Church inspired or Serbian Nationalism is the motivating factors concerns me not at all. That it exists, is reported to be quite widespread in the Serb psyche today is par for Europe for the past 15 centuries and is beyond historical dispute. This is in spite of many nationalities attempts to whitewash their past history. As a test of historical truths in nationalistic conflicts and disputes I look to see how ea country owns up and deals with their historical treatment of the Jews. That for me is an indicator whether they are not using revisionist history on other issues of contention and dispute. Truth in their perfidy of the Jews adds credibility to other claims of truth. Serbia I am sorry to say has yet to not only own up to their past, it appears it is continuing and when we see them elevating fascist antisemites to the level of saintly national heroes it goes a long way in persuading me that in a historical context that all of truth and justice is not on their side.
Ljubica Stefan
retired professor: refugee from Belgrade where she lived for 30 years, researches genocide against Albanians, anti-Semitism and persecution of Jews, as well as the behavior of Serbia and the Serbian Orthodox Church in World War II
Klaiceva 10
10 000 Zagreb CROATIA
You will probably call this Croat propaganda? Check out the next one after this:
ANTI-SEMITISM IN SERBIA DURING THE WORLD WAR II
There are still some significant historical facts about Serbia before and during the Second World War which remain suppressed or are even distorted with prejudice, not only in Serbia but also abroad. We believe this to be the consequence of ignorance due to the energetic, and unfortunately successful, propaganda of Yugoslavia and Serbia these past fifty years. Thus, these facts should always be pointed out in a precise and detailed manner whenever this dark period is mentioned, which is, in effect, only just one such period in a series of similar centuries-old ones in Serbian history.
Until today, Serbia has worn a hero’s halo in a land of martyrs as a member of the anti-Hitler coalition and an alleged contributor to the victory in the Second World War. This is completely untrue. Serbia was not an unfortunate occupied land subjected to German terror. During the entire war, Serbia was the most faithful ally to the Third Reich on European territory under its domination. As opposed to all the other countries of the former Yugoslavia, there was no organized, and an even less massive, armed anti-Hitler movement. When England finally ceased supporting and exalting Draza Mihajlovic, even Radio London, according to the Serbian press, had Mr. Harrison direct the following warning: “It is up to the Serbs to brighten their reputation and cleanse their blemishes. Serbs, remember! The Greater Serbian hegemony will never return. The other nations in Yugoslavia have been exploited enough by the Serbs. You are being given one more opportunity to save yourselves. There has been enough dawdling and enjoyment on the part of the Serbs while other nations have been fighting.”
Serbia was a real state during World War II. It consisted of the following: a government, organized ministries, independent authorities in towns and villages, its own army which was armed by the Germans, and this Nedic’s Serbian State Guard, the Serbian Guard, the elite Ljotic’s Serbian Voluntary Corps, the Serbian Border Guard, the Serbian Country Guard, as well as numerous Cetnik units. Within the Ministry of Internal affairs there was a large, well-organized and well-trained Serbian police force, with numerous prisons, customs services and special police schools. Elementary and secondary schools were in function in the towns and villages. Many newspapers and magazines were being printed as well as a large number of books. New theaters and cinemas were being built. Museums were open. Art shows and concerts were organized. New laws and statutes passed by the Serbian government were published in the “Official Gazette”. The Serbian National Bank, with a Serbian governor at its head, printed new Serbian money with an exchange rate in relation not only to the German mark but also to other significant European currency including the kuna. Ancient Serbian flags were hoisted everywhere and the national coat of arms was emphasized. Kosovo and the divine Knez Lazar were celebrated, St. Sava and the Karadjordjevic dynasty were exulted, etc. Until the very final moment, the Serbians believed that they would be rewarded with the creation of a Greater Serbia after Hitler’s victory!
Anti-Semitism was, along with the militant, conquering, genocidal Orthodoxy of St. Sava, one of the constant ideologies and politics of the Serbian Orthodox Church before, during and after the Second World War. This is in effect even today. That is to say, the Serbian Orthodox Church (SPC) is in fact a kind of political party. It is greater Serbian and even racist. Pastoral work has been completely neglected.
Anti-Semitism began to spread in Serbia before the Second World War. The Fascist Party “Zbor”, Dimitrij Ljotic, prominent Church dignitaries, as well as the church press, were the main generators of the expansion of anti-Semitism. Ljotic roused the Serbian population with the following types of statements: “The Jewish people use the explosives in their hearts to destroy Christian communities and lead them to their ruin”; “The destructive action of the Jewish spirit may be felt in all domains of human life”; “Judaism is appearing as a cultural and national danger, which we must be free of as soon as possible”. Ljotic’s model and idol was the leader of the Third Reich. He praised him in the following manner: “Hitler is the instrument of God’s providence. He is an instrument which can no longer be stopped until his assigned mission has been fully completed.” A great number of Orthodox priests were very active members of “Zbor”. The most prominent was the main ideologist of Orthodoxy and anti-Semitism in the Serbian church, episcopate Nikolaj Velimirovic who had been decorated by Hitler already in 1934. It was probably in gratitude that he wrote the following in his book about St. Sava in 1935: ” We must regard with esteem the present German leader who, in the twentieth century, came up with the idea of St. Sava and as a layman took upon himself a task for his people as befits only a holy man, a genius and a hero.” Several years later, in 1939, he publicly preached racism: ” We are people of an Aryan race, which fate has given an honorary role… so that tribes of weaker races and inferior faiths will not…”. In the “Glasnik Srpske pravoslavne Patrijarsije” (Gazette of the Serbian Orthodox Patriarchate), letters about Jewish people such as the following were common: “Jews are enemies, sly as snakes and dangerous”. The same newspaper reported the following statement given by Patriarch Varnava to a German newspaper in 1937. “The Führer, is leading a battle which will benefit mankind”, “God has sent the German people, a führer with foresight. We believe his truthful words”. Sometime before this Varnava referred to the Soviet government as a “deceiving Jewish gang”.
Germany attacked Yugoslavia on April 6, 1941, and without battle on April 12 its army had already entered Belgrade which had been abandoned by the Yugoslav Army and by all authorities since the first day of the war. The unconditional surrender was signed by the generals of the King’s Army on April 17.
On the actual day of the German arrival, Milicevic, the Governor of Belgrade, informed the citizens on a posted notice that the Serbian army was already organized and armed. Several days later, Dragi Jovanovic became the Governor (he held this title until the end of the war), the Chief of the Serbian police, and later the Chief of Serbian Security. The following statement made by SS General Harald Turner, only a month after his arrival in Belgrade, proves the unlimited power of the Serbian police: “I attempted to re-establish the activity of the police system with particular haste. Today, executive power in Serbia is carried out by the police and gendarmes who have been given weapons… internal relations are regulated by local organs without German interference.” Dragi Jovanovic himself stated in a report to the Gestapo: “Occupying forces were always able to rely on the Belgrade police. Special Police forces dealt with their assignments with great enthusiasm and success, unlike any other police in any city in all of occupied Europe”. In 1946, at his trial in Belgrade, he added: “These results were better and greater than the results of the Gestapo itself in Belgrade.”
For the first four months, Milan Acimovic was at the head of Serbia with his Council of Commissars and then, General Milan Nedic, former Minister of the Yugoslavian Army, who had a pro-German and anti-Semitic orientation, took over the leadership in Serbia. Owing to the wholehearted cooperation of all Serbian authorities and the police with the Germans, SS-man Harald Turner, stated the following in 1942: ” Serbia is a nation in which the problem of Jews and Gypsies has been solved.” Franz Rademacher of the Nazi Ministry of Foreign Affairs reported: “The Jewish problem in Serbia is no longer acute. The only thing left is to solve the legal questions concerning property.” The chief of the German Security Service in Serbia, A. Schafer bragged: “Belgrade - the only larger European city which is cleansed of Jews, has become ‘Judenfrei.’” Let us be reminded of the historical fact that Serbia ingloriously took first place in the genocide against the Jews in Europe just three months after the meeting of Reinhard Heydrich, chief of the German Security Service, Heinrich Muller, chief of the Gestapo and Adolf Eichmann, chief of the Special Department for Jews, which was held on January 20, 1942, at Lake Wansee by Berlin when the decision was made to approach the ” final solution to the Jewish problem”. Specifically, at the end of April and the beginning of May of that year, the remaining Jews were killed in the Sajmiste concentration camp…
Until now, the Holocaust in Serbia has been an unspoken topic, a taboo. Jewish and Serbian sources offer relatively little data, mostly fragmented. What really happened, nevertheless, may be seen. The following was noted: “Only seven days after their arrival in Belgrade, the Germans announced that all Jews had to register themselves at Tasmajdan (Serbian Police Headquarters). Before then, they had already formed a special police force for Jewish people, with the help of the police, that is, the Civil Government of Belgrade. Every Jew received a yellow band.” Another source stated that “Jude” was written on the first bands and had the “stamp of Belgrade’s Governor”. On one original preserved band (from a later time, it appears), “Jude” is written in German and “Jevrejin” is written in Cyrillic. The following data was found as well: “The Serbian Ministry of Internal Affairs, who always endeavored to deal with all their responsibilities on time, dealt with the Jewish problem, as well”. Also: “From among local traitors, the Gestapo trained the “Special Police” to battle against Jewish-Communistic actions. The special police closely collaborated with the Gestapo and was often the initiator of joint actions. The employees of the police were paid from a fund in which Belgrade Jews were forced to pay 1,400,000 dinars. Rewards for captured or killed Jews were paid from this fund as well…” By May 1941, German authorities had already announced the order by which “Jews were to register with Serbian police authorities”, “they cannot be public servants, they must immediately be eliminated by Serbian authorities”, so they were further forbidden to pursue a series of independent professions, to go to the theater or cinema, etc. Serbian authorities were declared “responsible for the carrying out of the order” which they immediately set out to do with in a conscientious and thorough manner, with the wholehearted approval of the press. Along with this, they rejoiced in the newspaper at the time: “Jews will never again be doctors, pharmacists, lawyers or judges in Serbia. The Serbs have finally opened their eyes”. Dragi Jovanovic, the Serbian Ministry of Justice, even the Musicians’ Associations and others, immediately proclaimed their own regulations that Jews turn in all radios and refrigerators even threatening citizens who might be hiding the property of their Jewish friends or providing them with unregistered shelter. They ordered the closing of all Jewish lawyers’ offices appointing Serbians in their places. They prohibited Jews to travel on Belgrade streetcars and refused work licenses to Jewish musicians and others. In keeping with the battle for a pure Aryan race, the newspapers started to publish employment offers which had as one of their first stipulations: “that they be of pure Aryan race, without Jewish or gypsy blood”. Confirmation of this racial purity was issued by the local Serbian authorities. Nedic’s “Ministerial Council” published the following order: “Property of the Jews who were citizens of the former Kingdom of Yugoslavia on April 15, 1941, belongs to Serbia if it is on Serbian territory, without any compensation”. The Serbian Council for the Management of Properties of Serbia of the National Mortgage Bank would then put the properties up for auction, placing an advertisement in the daily papers. The synagogue in Nis, which is now a part of the city museum, was among the properties listed. The Jews also had to pay a sum of 4,834,231 dinars to Belgrade’s Civil Government and a million dinars to the Belgrade municipality. According to a Jewish source, Serbians made up 33% of the buyers of Jewish properties! Some “deserving” Serbians, received, as a reward, a part of the looted Jewish money. The Gestapo Major Karl Krauss, ordered: “commencing July 1, 1941, every month until further notice, a sum of 10,000 dinars will be paid, without receipts, to Belgrade’s Police Chief and a sum of 6,000 dinars to his assistant from money collected from Jews in Belgrade”. Other than this, the Gestapo rewarded approximately 30 members of the Special Police with 10 to 20,000 dinars.
The physical liquidation of Serbian Jews began immediately in the spring of 1941. Almost all the men were killed by the autumn and the women and children and the remaining men were liquidated at the end of April and the beginning of May, 1942. The exact number of people killed is not known even from Jewish sources. Historian Jasa Romano, however, has come to the conclusion that 88% of all Serbian Jews were killed. The Serbian historian Sretenije Zrokic says that of the 11,870 Belgrade Jews only 1,115 or 9% survived the war. It was not only the Germans who captured and killed the Jews in Serbia, rather it was the Serbian Police, Nedic’s volunteers and Cetniks. Most were killed in the Sajmiste and Banjica concentration camps. Not a single Jew managed to escape from the camps.
The Banjica camp in Belgrade was established in July 1941 and shut down at the end of September 1944, a month before the withdrawal of the Germans from Belgrade. At a meeting between the Serbian Police and members of the Gestapo in June 1941, it was decided that one of the barracks of the former Yugoslav Army in Belgrade’s suburbs be transformed into a concentration camp. Dragi Jovanovic signed the document to this effect and the first prisoners were brought in on May 9. Svetozar Vujkovic was appointed director of the Serbian part of the camp where there were only Serbian police. The smaller German part was directed by members of the Gestapo. The commander of the camp and along with his assistant were German. The German and Serbian parts of the camps were completely separate.
The prisoners were watched by heavily armed guards: “Machine guns and reflectors were set up on the roofs. Day and night, double guards made up of one SS-man and a gendarme from the Special Police stood watch. Later when the police gained the trust of the occupier, the German guards were withdrawn”. The same Serbian source also said: “The camp management apparatus was also made up of prison wardens, headed by their commander, who had been chosen from the ranks of former gendarmes, now members of the Serbian guard.”
From partially preserved documents of the Serbian part of the camp we learn that 23,697 people were registered and 3,489 were executed by a firing squad. The German and Serbian police began, at the end of 1943, to destroy the documentation and to excavate and burn the executed bodies so that it is actually not known how many victims perished, nor how many were Jews, Serbs or others. The only thing that is known for certain is: not one Jew left Banjica alive… They were killed along with the other prisoners in the camp yard, shot down in the village of Jajinci at the foot of Avala, at the Jewish and the central cemetery in Belgrade. The Gestapo, the Special Police, and the Serbian National Guard performed the executions together. All the lists found were handwritten in Cyrillic. The prisoners were sent to the camps by the Belgrade Civil Government, the heads of the Serbian municipal police, the Serbian National Guard, Ljotic’s volunteer units, Serbian court-martials, and by regional and district leaders throughout Serbia. Execution lists were drawn up by the Special Police, the camp chief, Vujkovic, the Gestapo commander and his assistant. From the few preserved lists, it can be observed that even children were executed: 22 under the age of 7; 26 under the age of 14; 76 under the age of 17; even mothers with small children in their arms. Belgrade grave-diggers recall: “Members of the Gestapo and Special Police agents would draw women out of armored cars, one by one. Two men would hold each one by the arms and the third would shoot her in the head and then push her into the grave.” A Jewish source stated: ” From 1942 up to September 1944, Jews, who had found refuge in some villages in Serbia, were brought to the Banjica camp after being caught by Ljotic’s and Nedic’s men, as well as by Cetniks and handed over to the Germans for which they received financial rewards.”
The only surviving Jews in Serbia were those who remained unexposed in remote Serbian villages where peasants were hiding them. In a written report after the war, one of the surviving Jews said the following ” Draza Mihailovic’s Cetniks, mercilessly pursued Jews in that region, especially the Cetnik units that came from Ravna Gora (Draza’s main headquarters), whom we were forced to hide from just as we had to hide from the Germans. I know that it was these Cetniks who killed several families in that region in the most appalling manner.”
The majority of Serbian Jews were killed in the Sajmiste camp. There is no precise information and documentation is almost non-existent, yet it is estimated that the number of victims comes to at least 11,000. The camp was formed on the left bank of the Sava by the railway bridge at the entrance into Belgrade where the pre-war trade fair was located. This is where the name Sajmiste originated. This territory which was, at that time, deserted, uninhabited and marshy, was several kilometers from Zemun and formed a part of NDH (Independent State of Croatia) territory, so the Germans asked for it to be given to them. It is, however, completely untrue that this was an Ustasa camp which Serbian propaganda claims even today. Not one Ustasa ever entered the camp. The commander, Androfer, and his assistant, were SS-men. On Gestapo ruling, order and discipline were maintained by the Camp Council which was comprised exclusively of camp inmates who were at first solely Jews because there were no others and some agents of the Serbian police. Supplies were provided by the “Department of Social Care and Social Institutions of Belgrade’s Municipal Authorities”. At the beginning of December 1941, Serbian gendarmes called upon Jews in Belgrade to report to the Special Police and to hand over their house keys. The transfer of Jews, primarily women and children, lasted from December 8 until 12. Conditions in the camp were extremely difficult - the damp and the cold, hunger and epidemics. A Jewish source says: “The food was appalling and often not even the minimal amount of food was supplied. In Nedic’s units there were people who were no better than the Germans themselves.” What is almost unbelievable is that even the camp’s German commander protested against the quantity of supplies. The reply of Belgrade’s Municipal Authorities to the Germans was just as unbelievable if not insolent: “Provisions for the Jewish camp will be carried out once all other needs are met.”
As camp inmates starved and froze to death, they were transferred over the frozen Sava to Belgrade where they were buried. Many (the number is unknown) were led away to be shot by firing squads in Belgrade. They were killed in the same manner, in the same place and by the same people as were the Banjica prisoners. Some were killed by the Germans in a special gas truck on their way to Belgrade and buried in Jajinci but their number is not known. A Serbian company “Obnova” purchased the clothes of those. Some were led away to camps in other countries (numbers and destination are unknown). When the number of imprisoned Jews began to decrease, Serbian prisoners and others began to arrive. One of these prisoners recalls: “The criminals were the same as those in Banjica. The commanders were also the same - Germans, Nedic’s men and other Serbian fascists”. According to some data, all Jews in that camp were liquidated before May 9, 1942. Belgrade had become “Judenfrei”….
Another surviving Serbian camp inmate, wrote in his book of memoirs: “Several thousand Jews passed through the Sajmiste camp… Long lines of sad histories were written on the walls of the pavilions and in many places artistic portraits were completed. For days we returned to these final traces of thousands of people. There were surviving Serbians who told us various details about the life of the Jews in Sajmiste and who had allowed the Jews to write their final parting thoughts and vows .” Today, there is not a trace of these words at Sajmiste. Which of the “liberators” erased, destroyed and eradicated their every trace? Consequently, in the pavilions that remain today, consisting of offices and warehouses, there is not even a small plaque commemorating that this was the scene of a horrific concentration camp for Jews. On February 11, 1993, the European parliament adopted the Resolution on European and International Protection of Concentration Camps as Historical Monuments. But it seems this does not pertain to camp Sajmiste. Sajmiste, the largest Jewish execution camp in Serbia, is not even listed among the names of the 22 largest camps for Jews in Europe in the Memorial Center Jad Vashem in the Hall of Memoirs in Jerusalem. Of all the camps in the former Yugoslavia, Jasenovac is the only name listed! Does this intentionally imply that all Serbian Jews were apparently killed in the NDH in Jasenovac?
* * *
Finally, how did the Serbian Orthodox Church (SPC) act during World War II? Not one word of condemnation of the genocide, the yellow bands, the concentration camps or the racism was ever heard from them. Immediately upon the arrival of the Germans, representatives of the Holy Synod paid homage to the German military commander and stated, first in print and then in person: ” The Holy Orthodox Synod will loyally carry out the laws and commands of the occupying and territorial authorities and will, through its organs, endeavour to effect the complete abidance of order, peace and obedience.” The synod remained loyal to their promise until the end and it never violated its promise given to the “father of Serbia” General Milan Nedic that “the Serbian Orthodox Church will, in the spirit of St. Sava’s Orthodox tradition, continue to fight on his side”. There are no known cases of any Serbian Orthodox priest saving the life or attempting to save the life of one Jew, although some of them often openly expressed anti-Semitic attitudes in their sermons, instigating their congregation against Jews. Metropolitan Josif, as the head of the Serbian church during war time, signed orders that Jews be forbidden to transfer to the Orthodox faith, even though this would have saved them. Three episcopates were the first to sign the “Appeal to the Serbian people” of August 1941, in which over 500 of the intellectual elite of Serbia publicly expressed their support of the occupiers and quislings, which was a unique case in war-affected Europe.
* * *
One clear manifestation of Serbian anti-Semitism was the anti-Masonic, specifically the anti-Jewish exhibition which opened in Belgrade on October 22, 1941 and which was to support and justify the genocide against the Jews in Serbia and in Europe. Apart from the exhibits at the show, an overwhelming amount of propaganda material was prepared (over 200,000 various brochures, 60,000 posters, 100,000 leaflets, 108,000 copies of nine different post cards, 176 various cinema advertisements, four types of postal stamps, etc.). The organizers boasted: “Such a conceived exhibition will be unique, not only in Serbia but in the Balkans as well, not only in south-eastern Europe and Europe, but in the world”. The press awakened the national pride of the people: “The success of the Belgrade exhibition has surpassed Serbia’s borders and received deserved recognition by the press in entire Europe”. The pride of the organizers was directed to a truly unique occurrence in Europe during the war, this being the anti-Jewish stamps which showed abominable racist drawings, and which were to, according to requests by Serbian anti-Semites, “in the entire world, for all time, serve as the most convincing evidence of how one nation awakened when faced with the danger of disappearing(?)”. Milan Nedic expressed “his complete gratitude to the organizers and believes that the exhibition will have a great educational impact, because it systematically displays, in a clear manner, the work of the enemy of the nation and the people”.
* * *
Much time has passed since what has been described in Serbia, but anti-Semitism in Serbia, like the vampire, does not die. In 1985, the Serbian eparchy in Western Germany printed a book in Serbian and in Cyrillic written by the already deceased episcopate, Nikolai Velimirovic, supposedly in 1945 in the Dachau camp. The fact that this is completely untrue is another theme. The book preaches to the Serbian Orthodox people: “Today, Europe is primarily the battlefield of the Jews and the father of the Jewish devil. Europe is not aware of this and in this lies the dark tragedy of its peoples. Europeans, Christians and the anointed, have completely surrendered themselves to the Jews. They think as the Jewish people do, they have adopted Jewish programs, accepted Jewish lies as the truth, they travel the same paths as Jews and they serve Jewish goals”. There was no reaction from either side. In 1991, the Serbian Orthodox Church organized the spectacular transfer to Serbia of the remains of this anti-Semitic ideologist. The newsletter of the Serbian patriarchy “Pravoslavlje” printed an article in January 1992 by their correspondent in Israel “Jews Crucify Christ Once More”, with the following allegations: “Many Israelis are sick with hatred for the Christians. The hatred is open among the ordinary people. Politicians are perfidious and work in secret.”, etc. etc… Two weeks later, the Holy Orthodox Synod announced that the text ” sounds anti-Semitic, things are carelessly reported” and at the same time claimed: “the phenomenon of anti-Semitism and anti-Judaism is completely alien to the tradition and history of the Serbian Orthodox Church”. In February 1992, the Belgrade “Borba” wrote that at the entrance to the Jewish cemetery, someone had written: “Death to Jews and all Jewish p….”, but the whole affair was covered up. The “Tanjug” news agency announced a few days later that “the Jewish lobby had arranged the diplomatic recognition of Croatia and Slovenia by Russia”. One of Seselj’s commanders stated in Subotica that the property of Jews (and Croats) should be confiscated. In August 1993, the president of the Jewish community in Belgrade, commenting on their relations with the Orthodox Church, stated in a conversation with Zagreb Jews that the Orthodox Church “still preaches deicide and is still streaked with anti-Semitism”. Two months ago, in an Israeli newspaper, we learn that “a member of the Serbian parliament has accused the Jews of stabbing Serbia in the back”.
It seems as if the “Borba” journalist was correct when he concludes his article with the following words: ” Propagandistic platitudes on the non-existence of anti-Semitism in Serbia do not correspond to reality: there has always been anti-Semitism in Serbia”.
It is true, history does not repeat itself in Serbia, it merely continues in a uninterrupted series…
As do certain statements made by Serbian intellectuals, for instance: “it is a propaganda lie that Serbians liquidated Jews during the Second World War and that anti-Semitism was present in Serbia before the war and is present now!” This statement was made by Dr. Ljubo Tadic’s, a professor of the Faculty of Arts in Belgrade and a Serb, and Dr. Andrija Gams, professor at the Faculty of Law, sadly, a Serbian Jew.
Comment by yamit82 — June 2, 2009 @ 6:10 pm
jrob,
This one is not Croat or Albanian:
Thursday, 14th May, 2009
Serbia’s Nazi Past and the Holocaust of Jews
Source: Mindstream: A Monthly Jewish Review November 1992. Volume XXXVIII No.8. “Holocaust History Misappropriated”
By Dr. Philip J. Cohen
In conjunction with the war in former Yugoslavia, Serbia has undertaken a campaign to persuade the Jewish community of Serbian friendship for Jews. This same campaign portrays Croats as a common threat to both Jews and Serbs, in an attempt to gain Jewish sympathy and support at a time when most nations have isolated Serbia as a Balkan pariah.
http://www.hic.hr/english/documents01.html
Despite Serbian claims to the contrary, Germans were not alone in killing the Jews of Serbia. The long concealed Historical Archives in Belgrade reveal that Banjica, a concentration camp located in Belgrade, was primarily staffed by Serbs. Funding for the conversion of the former barracks of the Serbian 18th infantry division to a concentration, came from the municipal budget of Belgrade. The camp was divided into German and Serbian sections. From Banjica there survive death lists written entirely in Serbian in the
Cyrillic alphabet. At least 23,697 victims passed through the Serbian section of this camp. Many were Jews, including at least 798 children, of whom at least 120 were shot by Serbian guards. The use of mobile gassing vans by Nazis in Serbia for the extermination of Jewish women and children has been well documented. It is less appreciated, however, that a Serbian business firm had contracted with the Gestapo to purchase these same victims cloths, which sometimes contained hidden money or jewelry in the linings. In August 1942, following the virtual liquidation of Serbia’s Jews, Nedic’s government attempted to claim all Jewish property for the Serbian state. In the same month, Dr. Harald Turner; the chief of the Nazi civil administration of Serbia, boasted that Serbia was the only country in which the “Jewish question” was solved. Turner himself attributed this “success” to Serbian help. Thus, 94 percent of Serbia’s 16,000 Jews were exterminated, with the considerable cooperation of the Serbian government, the Serbian Orthodox Church, the Serbian State Guard, the Serbian police and the Serbian
public.
Today, many Serbs proudly cite the Chetniks as a resistance force and even claim that the Chetniks were somehow allied with the United States during the Second World War, but this is simply historical revisionism. According to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, Chetnik resistance against the Nazis came to a complete stop as early as the end of 1941. Thereafter, the Chetnik resistance actively collaborated with the both Nazis and Fascists, and for this reason Jewish fighters found it necessary to abandon the Chetniks, in favour of Tito’s Partisans. In reality, the Chetniks, dedicated primarily to the restoration of the Serbian throne and territorial expansion of the Serbian state, were the moral counterpart of Croatia’s Ustatsha. Both were quintessentially genocidal; the Chetniks committed systematic genocide against Muslims, who, for nearly all of 500 years had lived peacefully with the Sephardic Jewish community. Under explicit orders from their leader Draze Mihajlovic, the Chetniks attempted to depopulate Serbia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, and Croatia of all non- Serbs and in the process, massacred most of the 86,000 to 103,000 Muslims who perished during the war.
For years, the Serbian dominated Belgrade government has supported and trained PLO terrorists. Immediately after the murder of Leon Klinghoffer aboard the Achille Lauro in 1985, the terrorist mastermind Abu Abbas was welcomed in Belgrade. Since the late 1980’s, Abu-Nidal has maintained a large terrorist infrastructure in Yugoslavia, in coordination with Libyan, Iraqi, and Yugoslav intelligence services. During the 1991 Persian Gulf War, as Iraqi missiles landed in Israel, Belgrade supported its ally Iraq. Support of anti-Israel terrorism may be a consequence of support for nonaligned Arab states, rather than an expression of anti-Jewish sentiment.
Although the Jewish community of Serbia is not currently experiencing persecution, overt expressions of Serbian antisemitism do surface in such mainstream institutions as the Serbian Orthodox Church and the official news media. The 15 January 1992 issue of the official publication of the Serbian Orthodox Church, Pravoslavlje (Orthodoxy), carried an article entitled, “Jews Crucify Christ Again.” In this polemic, “treacherous” and “surreptitious” Israeli politicians were said to be constrained from expressing their “pathological” hatred of Christians openly because “they know that Christian countries gave them the state.” Allegedly, nuns are so frequently beaten in Israel, that one nun was actually “happy, because they only spit in her face.” Only weeks later, when Russia extended diplomatic recognition to the former Yugoslav republics of Croatia and Slovenia, the official Yugoslav (Serbian perspective) news agency Tanjug blamed “a Jewish conspiracy” against Serbia, hauntingly reminiscent of the theme of the 1941 anti-Masonic exhibit.
The essential strategy of Serbian propaganda is to portray the spiritual kinship between Jews and Serbs as victims of the Holocaust and endangered by Croats. This concept is disseminated through the Serbian-Jewish Friendship Society, founded in Belgrade in 1988 and supported by the Serbian government. In January and February 1992, Dr. Klara Mandic, the secretary-general and principal voice of this organization, syndicated a chilling article in the North American Jewish press. This article alleged that Ankica Konjuh, an elderly Jewish woman, was tortured and murdered by “Croat extremists” in September 1991. However, even as she released this story to the press, Dr. Mandic knew that Ankica Konjuh was neither a Jew nor could have been killed by Croats. Bona-fide witnesses have testified that Ankica Konjuh, a 67 year-old Croat, was one of 240 civilians massacred by Serbian forces after the last Croat defenders were driven from the region. Moreover on 23 December 1991, the Federation of Jewish Communities of Yugoslavia met in Belgrade and demanded in writing that Dr. Mandic cease and desist misrepresenting Ankica Konjuh as the first Jewish victim of the war. Nevertheless, in late February 1992, when Dr. Mandic lectured at the Hillel House of George Washington University in Washington, D.C., she provided the rabbi with a copy of that misleading article, delivered without further comment. It is noteworthy that this speaking engagement was part of a tour arranged by Wise Communications, a Washington-based public relations firm representing the Serbian oil company Jugopetrol, a thinly veiled proxy for the Communist Belgrade government. Beginning with the proposition that antisemitism has never existed in Serbia, Dr. Mandic portrayed Croatia as preparing to repeat the Holocaust. She claimed to be a “Jewish leader,” although Jews are distinctly absent from her constituency. Less than half a dozen Jews are actual members of her society of several thousand. She introduced herself as an “eyewitness” speaking on behalf of Croatian Jews, although since the war began, she has had no contact with any of the nine Jewish communities of Croatia. When Dr. Mandic was asked to comment on Serbian (Yugoslav Army) shelling of the synagogue of Dubrovnik, the second oldest surviving synagogue in Europe, she denied that the synagogue had ever been damaged at all. Meanwhile, the attack has been well documented by the Jewish community of Dubrovnik and the World Monument Fund.
Jewish sensitivity to the Holocaust is similarly exploited by the Jewish-Serbian Friendship Society of America (Granada Hills, California), an offshoot of Dr. Mandic’s organization. Its newsletter equates the Jewish and Serbian positions during World War II, both as victims of Croats, but fails to mention Serbian complicity in the Holocaust, Serbian collaboration with the Nazis, and Serbian genocide against Croats, Gypsies, and Muslims. It warns of an imminent Holocaust being initiated in Croatia. A contrasting portrayal of Croatia, however, emerges from a spectrum of Croatian Jews, American Jews who have visited Croatia, and international Jewish agencies monitoring events on site. All concur that there is no state-sponsored antisemitism in Croatia; the rights of the Jewish minority are respected; and antisemitic incidents are virtually unknown. Thus, only a few dozen of the 2,000 Jews of Croatia have chosen to emigrate to Israel since the war began.
Serbia of today and Germany in World War II offer striking parallels. In 1991, Vojislav Seselj, a member of the Serbian Parliament and leader of the Serbian irregulars who call themselves Chetniks, declared, “We want no one else on our territory and we will fight for our true borders. The Croats must either move or die.” Croats in Serbian conquered regions are forced to wear red-and-white armbands, analogous to the yellow armbands worn by Jews in Serbia during the Holocaust. The stated purpose of the expulsion of
Muslims and Croats from captured regions is “ethnic cleansing.” The indigenous non-Serbian populations of the invaded territories are being driven from their homes, exterminated, or imprisoned in concentration camps, to create regions of Serbian ethnic purity. Jewish community centres, synagogues, and cemeteries have been damaged and destroyed by characteristically indiscriminate Serbian artillery attacks. To all of this, the Jewish-Serbian Friendship Society has remained conspicuously silent.
Belgrade has promoted the myth of Serbian kinship with the Jews as fellow victims of Nazi oppression, while concealing the true extent of Serbian collaboration with the Nazis. It is ironic that Serbia is now seeking Jewish support for a war in which both the idealogy and methodology so tragically echo nazism. The European Community, the Helsinki Commission, the United Nations, and the United States have all condemned Serbia as the aggressor. Western diplomats have characterized the current Serbian regime as “a lying, terrorist criminal organization.” Serbia, however, claims to be the victim and campaigns for Jewish sympathy and support, exploiting the powerful symbolism of the Holocaust. Serbia’s professed solicitude for the Jewish people must be reexamined.
Comment by yamit82 — June 2, 2009 @ 6:14 pm
jrob:
I am willing to concede possibly that here sophist arguments do not necessarily mean they are true, or false. Consensus arguments like this tend to make me question their veracity. Like most civil wars and inter community religious and ethnic conflicts hard to tell who has the most right on their sides. The mass of western and the world condemnations of Serbia for me is quite suspect in that very fact alone.
Comment by yamit82 — June 2, 2009 @ 6:22 pm
Comment by rongrand — June 2, 2009 @ 6:33 pm
Guardian of Zion Award Lecture
June 1, 2009, 4:26 PM
http://www.carolineglick.com/e/2009/06/guardian-of-zion-award-lecture-1.php
Her theme of the watchman is especially apropos for out time and our situation. As you can see Glick speaks of the spiritual but leaves out G-d of Israel so I don’t know what she means by spiritual?
Her ref:
s Isaiah had promised in Chapter 37, verses 32-35:
“From Jerusalem and Mt. Zion the people will be renewed. And so God said to the King of Assyria, you will not enter this city, you will not shoot your arrows upon it, you will not breach its defenses, your cannons will not reach it. You will go back the way you came. You will not enter this city, God decreed. I defended this city to save it for me and for David my servant.”
Well Assyria who was the Rome of her time or the America of our time encamped before the walls and gates of Jerusalem on the eve. of passover.They ammassed 400,000 soldiers which even today would be quite formidable. All the Jews retired knowing they would be killed the next day. When they awoke they found 180,000 dead Assyrians. They never captured Jerusalem and went home. No Jew lifted a finger in his own defense.
Glick quotes Isaiah but declines to mention G-d.
The watchman theme: What she didn’t say outright but inferred I think is this:
Yechezkel - Ezekiel - Chapter 33
Chapter 33
Nice speech I enjoyed it but on the whole I think she fell short of what I would have liked to have heard. She still believes in BB, which should tell us a lot about here and her limitations.
What good is a Watchman
Comment by yamit82 — June 2, 2009 @ 8:50 pm
yamit, you have to excuse me, I guess I got carried away.
I kinda thought you would have given her a higher score.
Of course if you not a fan of Caroline you can’t score well.
Shame on me, I should know better.
I begining to realize that some of the problems in Israel is Jews just don’t see eye to eye.
Well I still think she is the best no matter what.
Ted once said he thought she was tops however, I don’t see any posting by him.
Talk is cheap Ted.
Comment by rongrand — June 2, 2009 @ 11:44 pm
Ron I said I enjoyed her speech. Glick has good incite. generally defines our situation and problems but then offers no solutions. She used to work for BB and has never criticized him in print. I must assume for her he is an untouchable and agrees with BB’s positions which are little different than Sharons, Olmerts, Livini’s or even Barak. All roads with these people lead to a Palis State of sorts down the road. The division of Jerusalem is a given here. They will spin it for public consumption. When I hear or read Glick criticize BB in print, I will begin to take more notice of what she says and writes.
Sorry to disappoint.
Jews have never seen eye to eye. with each orther and seldom with anyone else Must be part of our inbred national DNA. We are a very contrarian race.
Ron I do like Glick and most of the time I find her analysis of our situation even quite incitefull, It’s her solutions or lack of is what I take issue with. She doesn’t have a clue. She worked for BB last time he was PM and I assume agrees with his general positions. You have never read any criticism of BB in any thing she says or writes. BB is not much different than Barak, Olmert or livni. different personalities but all see down the road some kind of Pali state. BB has the problem of not leading a center left coalition. He is far to the left of his own likud party and even farther than the other parties except Labor in his coalition. Obama wantrs to bring
Comment by yamit82 — June 3, 2009 @ 3:04 am
Yamit, from what I get from her is she is against evacuating any settlements, all Jerusalem under Israeli control.
She believes Israel should do what it has to do and not worry about the US.
Maybe I missed the boat.
I think she is a true Israeli Freedom Fighter.
She is pretty sharp. She could have stayed in the States.
She elected to follow her heart to Israel.
I think thats great.
Besides I don’t think she is that happy with the course BB is taking.
I find her a conservative and hard liner.
Comment by rongrand — June 3, 2009 @ 3:45 am
Ron; a hard liner is one who is opposed to any territorial compromise or giveaways for any reason whatsoever.
A hardliner is one who would solve the Arab problem in Israel not by searching for ways to live with them but for ways to get rid of them from our land. A hardliner is one that would advocate Israel extricating ourselves from under the constricts of any outside entity even the USA. A hardliner is one who is prepared to undergo a considerable amount of national, economic and diplomatic pain in order to maintain a Jewish sovereign state. A hardliner is one who holds that PEACE is a dividend of other policies that when pursued ensure the maximum strength of the state of Israel. A hardliner believes you don’t talk with enemies before they are totally defeated on the field of battle. A hardliner believes in the concept of the Blood of your enemies and not of unnecessary shedding of ones own. A hardliner believes in a Jewish destiny that is controlled or willed by HASHEM. A Hardliner believes as an article of faith that every Jew belongs here with us. (No Exceptions) A Jewish hardliner believes Self-respect is a positive attitude.
Jews are not nice. From those who fought under Abraham to those who robbed the Egyptians to those who knocked down the towns of Canaan to Dir Yassin, the Jews are anything but nice. Jews must serve God and their moral principles zealously, no humble people can be zealous? Zeal is about certainty of one’s right and willingness to establish that right in the Land of Israel.
A Jewish hardliner believes: Jewish identification goes from the strongest to the weakest—family, nation, Jewish population of the Land of Israel, civilization, then humanity. The last identification is all-inclusive and therefore meaningless: identification is only possible on the background of opposites. Why be Jewish if Jews are humans like any others? Their rich traditions don’t make French or Italians to refrain from marrying others or assimilating into other cultures. Why go to the Jewish temple if it is a house of worship on par with that of any other religion? Why be loyal to Judaism if it is a religion like any other? Judaism hinges on a single question: Did God reveal himself on Mt. Sinai. Strength feeds on itself, people join the strong both for security and out of snobbishness. When religious Jews make a strong, proud group, arrogant in its declared superiority, secular Jews will be happy to join them. The cure for assimilation is simple: strength of arms, associations, and beliefs. Assimilation is the consequence of political correctness; politically incorrect Jews who proclaim our religious superiority won’t assimilate.
Strength inhibits assimilation. For American Jews, in the 1967 war “we won,” but in the peace process “they are giving the land away.” The Diaspora identifies with strong Israel, and dissociates from the weak.
A Jewish irrational hardliner understands that ,the Road Map plan demands that we cede the Temple Mount, Jerusalem, and Judea. If there are Jewish territories on earth, those are the ones. It would be sort of like Russia abandoning the Kremlin, or America selling the White House.
Maybe some painful concessions are historically normal? Not for victors. There is not a single instance in world history when an attacked country won the war, conquered the land of its enemy, and then relinquished it out of goodwill. Israel has been attacked half a dozen times in six decades; taking over the enemy’s land is a historically standard retribution.
Is there any benefit for Israel in agreeing to the concessions, however bizarre? No, they are clearly suicidal. No state can possibly exist within eight-mile-wide borders, let alone a state besieged by three hundred million enemies.
The international attitude toward Israel is clarified by the auxiliary demands. Israel has to fight nicely, send her children into urban combat, and even in combat somehow inquire about a target’s terrorist affiliation before shooting. Israel has to be liberal—that is, abandon Judaism, which demands strict morality. Israel has to open herself to foreign influence, thus forgoing her uniquely Jewish lifestyle. Israel has to be democratic—which means, in plain English, to allow Arab voters to subvert the Jewish state. Israel has to be tolerant of minorities and accept Arabs as one third of her population. What will remain of the Jewish state when all those orders are implemented?
Look further. The US, our closest ally, prevents us from attacking Iran, which will acquire nuclear weapons within the next year. The US Administration is therefore okay with a nuclear Iran, which wants to wipe Israel off the map. This is not an isolated event: America condemned Israel for bombing Iraq’s nuclear reactor. In 1967, the outlook was apocalyptic, Jews dug tens of thousands of graves and prepared for total annihilation, but the US barred us from preempting; it did likewise in 1973. Two years after the Holocaust, the United Stated and Britain did not give vote in the UN for the establishment of a Jewish state. When the state was established nonetheless, they embargoed weapons sales.
A modern western rational Jew believes; Rationally, Iran won’t nuke Israel. One or two nuclear explosions won’t kill a statistically significant number of Jews or devastate the country, while retaliation will be overwhelming. Syria needs rapprochement with the world community, not the Golan, and shouldn’t start a Hezbollah-style war over the Heights. The Palestinians want safety and economic development, have enough land, and will live in peace with Israel.
All of that is rational. None of it is true. Therefore for a Jew to be rational he must be an anti-rationalist hardliner. If the opposite of hardliner is to be rational and they continue to dominate Jewish consensus, then we are doomed.
Comment by yamit82 — June 3, 2009 @ 9:02 am
Apologies for late entry into this thread. I missed it until a friend e mailed me.
Rongrand. I admire you and like you because I think you are the future, which in my opinion as far as the Jews of the world are concerned in the year of 2009 rests with especially the ordinary people of 2 main countries, that of Israel and that of the US.
Great attention must be given to agitational work in these two countries.
It is best to take Yamit82 with a touch of salt. At a time when we need really clear perspectives on historical matters Yamit just cannot provide this.
In fact this can only really be provided by a Trotskyist perspective because Trotsky alone carried this cool and dialectical MATERIALIST analysis of history forward.
I am a materialist and I see the task as this.
1. The world capitalist system is in terminal crisis
2. Because of this crisis the Jewish people are once again being caught through absolutely no fault of their own. Of all the peoples in the world the genius of Israel has made a relative success of their system
3. No I am talking about huge social forces being energized
4. For example British Labourism and even Toryism has reached the end of the road. The Fascist forces in Britain will not easily defeat the working class, but inroads have already been made, with the influx of a reactionary Muslim contingent, and the use of political correctness by the trade union tops to stifle discussion…of anything
And in the US the election of Obama was a huge con trick and publicity success. But how long will the “magic” last when ordinary Americans are going to be joining the ends of soup kitchen queues!!!
I propose a unity with good Jewish people, and Yamit82 is one of course.
At the top of the banner of Trotskyism must be placed the defence of the Jewish nation, of the Jewish people, the defence of the rights of Jews to be apart, to be in their own country, to carry out their traditional religion and culture AS THEY SEE FIT
JEWS MUST DEFEND THEMSELVES AND MUST BE DEFENDED AGAINST ANTISEMITISM
When Yamit82 says above that the modern “Left” is close to Nazism, being in support of Islamofascism, for example see Lenin´s Tomb blog in Britain, then he is close to the mark.
But Yamit when he tries to explain this phenomenon of a Left gets quickly out of his depth.
When he talks in the above somewhere about one dead Russian in the War being one less dead American Yamit82 enters the world of lunacy, and racist Nazi type lunacy at that.
Let us take the battle of the Desert Rats in the Desert in the Last War. It was the Desert Rats which saved the Jews of the area, especially of present day Israel.
Without the Nazis being defeated by the Desert Rats there would be no Israel. Rauff was in place and if Rommel had been successful then there would be no Jews at all left.
The greatest answer to Yamit82´s lunatic raving over the history of the Balkan Holocaust is Hajj Amin el Husseini and his mobilization among the bitterest enemies of the Serbs, the Muslims in Bosnia, then his role in that Rauff 1942 extermination plan, then his role in directing the 1948 genocide attempt
But the role of this man has been hidden. Much of what Yamit82 has written here seeks only to also hide his role and the objective if not always subjective unity of the Serbs and Jews.
Comment by Felix Quigley — June 3, 2009 @ 5:13 pm
Felix, Ron is an old unlapsed Catholic unlike the lapsed kind like you. Appears he is one of those few gentiles that for whatever reasons cares what happens to us and even supports our national venture here.
I am all ears?
And here I was under the impression that our conflict with the Arabs was first and foremost a religious conflict. I didn’t know or understand that it’s underlying causes were materialistic?
Don’t know what you are talking about. What huge social forces?
The world is in economic crisis if not global economic meltdown. I can make a defense of Capitalism even now by saying government interventions by America and EU was the primary cause, Capitalism was not allowed to correct itself in a normal manner. Governments failed in regulation of all markets. The mortgage crisis which precipitated the crisis was government created and acerbated. That Felix is anti capitalism.
Well as usual most of the world will still blame the Jews for the crisis. Israel could have been light years ahead of where we are today were is not for and still is the socialist input and structural influence since the beginning of the state and even well before that.
It was British trade unionism that was mostly responsible for making England into a third rate country. “HOW THE MIGHTY HAVE FALLEN” I love to see the Bastards get their comeuppance.
Thanks Felix that awfully Trotsky of you. How do we unite and unite against exactly what?
If you read my post on only Serbia and the widespread antisemitism there where there are almost no Jews. How do you propose to defend against irrational hatred?
.
Be specific.
Hardly the Russian were draing the German manpower swamp and FDR and Churchill were only too happy to allow it to continue for as long as possible. That’s why they delayed opening what Stalin called a second front to take the pressure of of Russia. The allies delayed the second front for over a year. We sent them bundles for Russia though!
I agree the ras put up a good effort but were lucky in having Hitler the Great German Tactician and strategist running the war. The Germans supply lines too long and drawn out and then Hitler withheld in the end supply. You can’t fight well with no ammo petrol. water and food… and little or no air cover. I would say it was divine Providence.
I was referencing Serbian Fascism, collusion with the Nazis and antisemetism historically and now in Serbia> Croatia and Bosnia never came up Serbia was the subject. Interesting you don’t refute my facts re: Serbia? My point has always been as far as the Jews were concerned they were all complicit and dirty.
For your information:
“Anti-Semitism is not just our right, but it is the duty of every Hungarian homeland lover, and we must prepare for armed battle against the Jews”
B”H
http://israeljewishnews.blogspot.com/
Any Jew who worships the EU should reconsider their stance, and any Jew who worships a US president who worships the EU should really wake up and smell the coffee.
Europe has never been a place for us, and it continues to be exceedingly dangerous for Jews to live there (of course, not nearly as dangerous as those countries directly affiliated with the “religion of peace,” but dangerous, nonetheless.)
Last Fall, the Pew Global Attitudes Project published a report that ranked Spain as the top “non-Muslim” country for anti-Semitism. The Report stated that, in Spain, anti-Jewish views have risen from 21% in 2005, to 46% in 2008.
It isn’t just Spain and their anti-Semitic Socialist President, Jose Zapatero, that we have to worry about, though. It is also France’s “Anti-Zionism” party–headlined by the unfunny “comedian” Dieudonné, “philosopher” Alain Soral, and Yahina Gouasmi, a shiite Muslim of the Hezbollah.
And, of course, in the “Most Obnoxious” category, we have the union newsletter for the police in Hungary, entitled “Prepared for Action,” which states:
* “Given our current situation, anti-Semitism is not just our right, but it is the duty of every Hungarian homeland lover, and we must prepare for armed battle against the Jews.”
I am personally fascinated by the name of the editor of that publication, who is the right-wing candidate responsible for this anti-Semitic rhetoric.
The name?–Judit Szima.
Interesting name, don’t you think? I guess Judit has never bothered to consult a dictionary of names.
Well, I guess there is some comfort-level in seeing Europe return to its old Jew-Baiting self. At least we don’t have to wonder why Obama loves them and wants to please them.
Don’t expect anything particularly lofty when the EU election results are reported. I’m thinking Israel is on her own now–which is both a good thing and a scary thing considering Hashm’s warning:
“Those who curse you, will be cursed.”
M
—–
European Jewish group concerned about anti-Semitic rhetoric by candidates for EU Parliament
by: Yossi Lempkowicz
http://www.ejpress.org/article/36928#
PARIS (EJP)—The European Jewish Congress (EJC) has expressed concern about the increased use of anti-Semitic rhetoric by candidates in the European Parliament elections to take place this week across the EU.
In a statement, EJC President Moshe Kantor condemned “in the strongest possible terms, the cowardly and cynical use of anti-Semitic and racist language and fear-mongering utilized by some candidates for the European Parliament.”
He called upon all candidates, unions and political parties “to refrain from using racist, xenophobic or anti-Semitic rhetoric in a cynical and dangerous bid to curry votes.”
Kantor noted the worrisome foothold that anti-Semitism has continued to gain in Europe, particularly in areas hard hit by the world economic crisis.
He cited as example the “Prepared for Action” newsletter of a police union in Hungary that is edited by Judit Szima, a right-wing candidate for the European Parliament in Hungary, who also serves as the secretary-general of the police union.
According to recent news reports, as editor, Szima has run multiple racist articles, including one that noted that,
News reports go on to note that nearly ten percent of Hungary’s police force belongs to this union, the EJC, a Paris-based umbrella representative group for Jewish communities across Europe, said.
Another example cited by the EJC is French controversial comedian Dieudonné who presented a list under the moniker of ‘Anti-Zionism,’ “barely concealing the fact that the political platform is largely anti-Semitic”.
The EJC deplored the fact that “unfortunately” the French authorities have not banned this list from the elections.
Moshe Kantor noted the disturbing lack of response by governments to this type of incitement. “To allow for violent calls of action against any group of people under the cover of free speech is the height of hypocrisy and an act of cowardice.”
“There should be no tolerance and no excuse for either candidates or elected officials to espouse racism or anti-Semitism in any form or under any circumstance. The cynical use of Jews and other minorities such as Roma as scapegoats for Europe’s ills must stop and it must stop now. These cases are symptomatic of an ill wind blowing across Europe. As Europeans, it is our responsibility to ensure that history does not repeat itself.”
The EJC president urged candidates for Parliament and those elected to the European Parliament to support the implementation and enforcement of comprehensive legislation dealing with racism, xenophobia and anti-Semitism.
Stupid Jews never learn! It is they who will suffer not us and maybe deservedly so.
—
The elections take place from 4-7 June 2009 in 27 Member States. About 375 million EU citizens aged 18 or over are entitled to vote in the election of the Parliament members for a five year term. The elections will be held on Thursday June 4 in the UK and the Netherlands. There will be voting on Friday June 5 in Ireland and the Czech Republic. And it will begin on Saturday June 6 in Cyprus, France, Italy, Latvia, Malta and Slovakia. The other countries will conduct their voting on Sunday June 7. Results are expected Sunday night.
Posted by Michelle Nevada (Michelle_Nevada@yahoo.com) at 5:31 AM 0 comments
Comment by yamit82 — June 3, 2009 @ 7:23 pm
Yamit,
You’ve been bamboozled as that ‘Phillip Cohen’ is a fraudulent front for neonazi propaganda.
http://www.serbianna.com/columns/savich/084.shtml
I’ve found no lies, absurdities, nor historical inconsistencies in Savich’s columns. He also well documents the US role in the deliberate resuscitation of the SS Handzar in Bosnia.
http://www.serbianna.com/columns/savich/104.shtml
LIkewise, much money is poured into propagandizing for the handful of Albanian Muslims that rescued Jews, whereas this was the default ideology of the Serbs. They did not form a quisling, camp-running government.
Basically, there are hundreds of millions of EU NGO dollars (Soros dollars, Ford dollars, etc.) that go into not only rewriting Israeli history, but also rewriting Serbian history and ensuring neither Jews nor Serbs know the truth about the other. Very few people in the US have a clue on Serbian history, but as a Jew you should give them every benefit of the doubt, and indeed the facts–not the subsequent revisionist history, support them.
Comment by jrob — June 4, 2009 @ 5:01 am
Yamit: For months, nay years now you have been clogging up our hard drives with your interminable archaic biblical quotations .Now it is time for a genuine, profoundly Hebrew spiritual experience.A poetic masterpiece by a purely religious Jewish- American Poet.
Kaddish Part 1- Alan Ginsberg
Strange now to think of you, gone without corsets & eyes, while I walk on
the sunny pavement of Greenwich Village.
downtown Manhattan, clear winter noon, and I’ve been up all night, talking,
talking, reading the Kaddish aloud, listening to Ray Charles blues
shout blind on the phonograph
the rhythm the rhythm–and your memory in my head three years after–
And read Adonais’ last triumphant stanzas aloud–wept, realizing
how we suffer–
And how Death is that remedy all singers dream of, sing, remember,
prophesy as in the Hebrew Anthem, or the Buddhist Book of An-
swers–and my own imagination of a withered leaf–at dawn–
Dreaming back thru life, Your time–and mine accelerating toward Apoca-
lypse,
the final moment–the flower burning in the Day–and what comes after,
looking back on the mind itself that saw an American city
a flash away, and the great dream of Me or China, or you and a phantom
Russia, or a crumpled bed that never existed–
like a poem in the dark–escaped back to Oblivion–
No more to say, and nothing to weep for but the Beings in the Dream,
trapped in its disappearance,
sighing, screaming with it, buying and selling pieces of phantom, worship-
ping each other,
worshipping the God included in it all–longing or inevitability?–while it
lasts, a Vision–anything more?
It leaps about me, as I go out and walk the street, look back over my shoulder,
Seventh Avenue, the battlements of window office buildings shoul-
dering each other high, under a cloud, tall as the sky an instant–and
the sky above–an old blue place.
or down the Avenue to the south, to–as I walk toward the Lower East Side
–where you walked 50 years ago, little girl–from Russia, eating the
first poisonous tomatoes of America frightened on the dock
then struggling in the crowds of Orchard Street toward what?–toward
Newark–
toward candy store, first home-made sodas of the century, hand-churned ice
cream in backroom on musty brownfloor boards–
Toward education marriage nervous breakdown, operation, teaching school,
and learning to be mad, in a dream–what is this life?
Toward the Key in the window–and the great Key lays its head of light
on top of Manhattan, and over the floor, and lays down on the
sidewalk–in a single vast beam, moving, as I walk down First toward
the Yiddish Theater–and the place of poverty
you knew, and I know, but without caring now–Strange to have moved
thru Paterson, and the West, and Europe and here again,
with the cries of Spaniards now in the doorstops doors and dark boys on
the street, firs escapes old as you
–Tho you’re not old now, that’s left here with me–
Myself, anyhow, maybe as old as the universe–and I guess that dies with
us–enough to cancel all that comes–What came is gone forever
every time–
That’s good! That leaves it open for no regret–no fear radiators, lacklove,
torture even toothache in the end–
Though while it comes it is a lion that eats the soul–and the lamb, the soul,
in us, alas, offering itself in sacrifice to change’s fierce hunger–hair
and teeth–and the roar of bonepain, skull bare, break rib, rot-skin,
braintricked Implacability.
Ai! ai! we do worse! We are in a fix! And you’re out, Death let you out,
Death had the Mercy, you’re done with your century, done with
God, done with the path thru it–Done with yourself at last–Pure
–Back to the Babe dark before your Father, before us all–before the
world–
There, rest. No more suffering for you. I know where you’ve gone, it’s good.
No more flowers in the summer fields of New York, no joy now, no more
fear of Louis,
and no more of his sweetness and glasses, his high school decades, debts,
loves, frightened telephone calls, conception beds, relatives, hands–
No more of sister Elanor,–she gone before you–we kept it secret you
killed her–or she killed herself to bear with you–an arthritic heart
–But Death’s killed you both–No matter–
Nor your memory of your mother, 1915 tears in silent movies weeks and
weeks–forgetting, agrieve watching Marie Dressler address human-
ity, Chaplin dance in youth,
or Boris Godunov, Chaliapin’s at the Met, halling his voice of a weeping Czar
–by standing room with Elanor & Max–watching also the Capital
ists take seats in Orchestra, white furs, diamonds,
with the YPSL’s hitch-hiking thru Pennsylvania, in black baggy gym skirts
pants, photograph of 4 girls holding each other round the waste, and
laughing eye, too coy, virginal solitude of 1920
all girls grown old, or dead now, and that long hair in the grave–lucky to
have husbands later–
You made it–I came too–Eugene my brother before (still grieving now and
will gream on to his last stiff hand, as he goes thru his cancer–or kill
–later perhaps–soon he will think–)
And it’s the last moment I remember, which I see them all, thru myself, now
–tho not you
I didn’t foresee what you felt–what more hideous gape of bad mouth came
first–to you–and were you prepared?
To go where? In that Dark–that–in that God? a radiance? A Lord in the
Void? Like an eye in the black cloud in a dream? Adonoi at last, with
you?
Beyond my remembrance! Incapable to guess! Not merely the yellow skull
in the grave, or a box of worm dust, and a stained ribbon–Deaths-
head with Halo? can you believe it?
Is it only the sun that shines once for the mind, only the flash of existence,
than none ever was?
Nothing beyond what we have–what you had–that so pitiful–yet Tri-
umph,
to have been here, and changed, like a tree, broken, or flower–fed to the
ground–but made, with its petals, colored, thinking Great Universe,
shaken, cut in the head, leaf stript, hid in an egg crate hospital, cloth
wrapped, sore–freaked in the moon brain, Naughtless.
No flower like that flower, which knew itself in the garden, and fought the
knife–lost
Cut down by an idiot Snowman’s icy–even in the Spring–strange ghost
thought some–Death–Sharp icicle in his hand–crowned with old
roses–a dog for his eyes–cock of a sweatshop–heart of electric
irons.
All the accumulations of life, that wear us out–clocks, bodies, consciousness,
shoes, breasts–begotten sons–your Communism–’Paranoia’ into
hospitals.
You once kicked Elanor in the leg, she died of heart failure later. You of
stroke. Asleep? within a year, the two of you, sisters in death. Is
Elanor happy?
Max grieves alive in an office on Lower Broadway, lone large mustache over
midnight Accountings, not sure. His life passes–as he sees–and
what does he doubt now? Still dream of making money, or that might
have made money, hired nurse, had children, found even your Im-
mortality, Naomi?
I’ll see him soon. Now I’ve got to cut through to talk to you as I didn’t
when you had a mouth.
Forever. And we’re bound for that, Forever like Emily Dickinson’s horses
–headed to the End.
They know the way–These Steeds–run faster than we think–it’s our own
life they cross–and take with them.
Magnificent, mourned no more, marred of heart, mind behind, mar-
ried dreamed, mortal changed–Ass and face done with murder.
In the world, given, flower maddened, made no Utopia, shut under
pine, almed in Earth, blamed in Lone, Jehovah, accept.
Nameless, One Faced, Forever beyond me, beginningless, endless,
Father in death. Tho I am not there for this Prophecy, I am unmarried, I’m
hymnless, I’m Heavenless, headless in blisshood I would still adore
Thee, Heaven, after Death, only One blessed in Nothingness, not
light or darkness, Dayless Eternity–
Take this, this Psalm, from me, burst from my hand in a day, some
of my Time, now given to Nothing–to praise Thee–But Death
This is the end, the redemption from Wilderness, way for the Won-
derer, House sought for All, black handkerchief washed clean by weeping
–page beyond Psalm–Last change of mine and Naomi–to God’s perfect
Darkness–Death, stay thy phantoms!
II
Over and over–refrain–of the Hospitals–still haven’t written your
history–leave it abstract–a few images
run thru the mind–like the saxophone chorus of houses and years–
remembrance of electrical shocks.
By long nites as a child in Paterson apartment, watching over your
nervousness–you were fat–your next move–
By that afternoon I stayed home from school to take care of you–
once and for all–when I vowed forever that once man disagreed with my
opinion of the cosmos, I was lost–
By my later burden–vow to illuminate mankind–this is release of
particulars–(mad as you)–(sanity a trick of agreement)–
But you stared out the window on the Broadway Church corner, and
spied a mystical assassin from Newark,
So phoned the Doctor–’OK go way for a rest’–so I put on my coat
and walked you downstreet–On the way a grammarschool boy screamed,
unaccountably–’Where you goin Lady to Death’? I shuddered–
and you covered your nose with motheaten fur collar, gas mask
against poison sneaked into downtown atmosphere, sprayed by Grandma–
And was the driver of the cheesebox Public Service bus a member of
the gang? You shuddered at his face, I could hardly get you on–to New
York, very Times Square, to grab another Greyhound–
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From Collected Poems 1947-1980 by Allen Ginsberg, published by Harper & Row. Copyright © 1984 by Allen Ginsberg. Used with permission.
Larger Type | Home | Help | Contact Us | Privacy Policy Copyright © 1997 - 2009 by Academy of American Poets.
Comment by h peskin — June 4, 2009 @ 5:02 am
Peskin, I suppose there is a message in this for me but it escapes me as to exactly what. This poem (sic) if that’s what you sixty hippies want to call it was written for and about his mad dead mother. He wrote it, so they say while high on acid and amphetamines. Are you likening me to his mad dead mother? Ginsburg the (Homo) himself? The nostalgia for a past time that is gone for ever? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IumnmhnPJKQ&feature=related.this song has been said to have influenced Ginsberg when he wrote it. I like the song hate the poem and haven’t given Ginsberg a thought in decades. Belongs in the genre of Jack Kerouac. I didn’t like his stuff either. Ginsberg conceives a life that connects to the life of the deceased as a broken union, a broken series of encounters. Ginsberg’s mother suffered from severe mental illness, as he himself had. The poem details her descent into madness, his life, and the life of an America that had existed during her lifetime and had begun disappearing in his own lifetime. Are you then comparing me to their madness? Despair? or an inferred mad nostalgia for the past?
Peskin will any one say Kaddish over your grave? Do you care?
Comment by yamit82 — June 4, 2009 @ 8:26 am
Yamit: Yes of course there is a message there for you. And it is obvious to all but yourself.Read this great poetic, hebrew,spiritual masterpiece and reread same until you feel enlighteneed to the message contained therein.
Do not write another post until YOU GET IT!
Comment by h peskin — June 4, 2009 @ 8:37 am
jrob, I admit that anti serb elements are using Dr, Cohens work when attacking Serbia in all the media. That said, I say so what. You disprove Cohen not by citing who is manipulating his work but whether he speaks to the truth or not. Most of what Cohen has written on Serbia however negative is corroborated by other sources.
So the question as to who is being Bamboozled is open and I say let the evidence fall where they may. You have not refuted what I have posted but only cast aspersions.
My criteria for personal interest or involvement is 100% grounded on whether that interest has relevance to Jews and Israel. I have shown that the Jews fared little better in Serbia than in any other country in Europe. To further substantiate my primary contentions I give you this:
Antisemitism and Post-Communist Developments in FR Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro)
PROJECTS OF THE COUNCIL OF EUROPE
Overcoming Anti-Semitism and Nationalistic Bias
Anti-Semitic hate crime in Serbian society since October 2000
http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:DAiZ2T4hpL0J:www.internetjournalofcriminology.com/Anti-Semitism%2520and%2520the%2520Christian%2520Right%2520in%2520post-Milosevic%2520Serbia.pdf+anti+semitism+in+Serbia+today&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=il
In spite
Comment by yamit82 — June 4, 2009 @ 10:11 am
I hate Ginsberg almost as much as I hate you and since I am not a masochist I decline your suggestion. Say what you will how ever inane and in plain English or not; I leave it at that. Since your suggestion be silent till I reach some epiphany type of revelation. I decline the suggestion. Therefore I will post double my normal postings and cite you as my inspirational motivator.
Comment by yamit82 — June 4, 2009 @ 10:31 am
As stated, the US/Nato/Arab pulverization of Serbia was done while telling them that it was the work of ‘Jews’ like Albright. Definitely there are *some* antisemites there.
But there is no, and never has been a “Serbian ethno-nationalism”. Serbia is by far the most multiethnic, multilanguage region over there. There is not a single speech calling for a ‘greater Serbia’. Your sources are fully aware of the Ustashe and Handzar, and try to lump the Serbs in with that, and it is fiction.
Proof that it is fiction: use lexis nexis to pull up Milosevic’s speech, 1989 at Kosovo field. Read this speech. Compare it to the nazi ideology of the US/Nato allies. Case closed. Slobo was only guilty of engaging in the cleansing of his own people, not unlike multiple Israeli leaders. This does not make him, nor the Serbs nazis.
The absurdities are not in the Gorin/JI version of history, rather only in the version that posits Serbs as being on a par with the Handzar and Ustashi. Serb history has been rewritten multiple times, not to their advantage.
None of this is ultra relevant for Israel, although it is indicative of what US policy towards Israel would be if there were no Americans that kept up with Israel. The US would not only scapegoate and demonize Israel (as has been the case for 40 years or so), but would engage in a full fledged bombing to rescue poor tormented Muslim nazis from the ‘rape camps’ where Jews are keeping them.
Comment by jrob — June 4, 2009 @ 6:20 pm
27-11-2008 / Serbia
Serbia – A law against the neo-Nazis
A proposal for a law forbidding neo-Nazi’s organizations and the use of Nazi symbols is taking shape in Serbia. The Law is submitted by the ruling parties, the DS and the LSV.
10-10-2002 /
Serbia – A Threatening Letter Sent to the Jewish Community in Belgrade
On 10th October 2002, a letter arrived at the office of the Jewish Community in Belgrade. The letter, which had been sent by regular mail from an unknown address, was written in Serbian. It included curses, taunts and antisemitic and anti-Israel epithets and even a call for the immediate evacuation of the Israeli Embassy or else the Embassy employees, and Jews in Serbia in general, would be danger of armed attack.
12-05-2003 /
Serbia – Antisemitic Letter to a Local Journalist in Belgrade
Some time around 12th May, a local journalist in Belgrade received a hate/threatening letter concerning the Jewish and Israeli communities in Belgrade. It was an anonymous letter from an unidentified address and had arrived by regular mail. The letter was signed by the Organization of Young Revolutionaries in Serbia. The letter was in Serbian and was typed. The letter is reminiscent in style and form of a letter received previously by the Jewish Community in October 2002. The letter was sent to this journalist following an interview he had held with personnel from Israeli Embassy in February 2003. In addition to curses, insults and verbal abuse the letter contained a threat to the Ambassador and the Embassy staff calling on them to leave Serbian territory immediately otherwise the Ambassador, the Embassy staff and Jews in Serbia in general would be exposed to attacks by those responsible for the letter.
16-01-2006 /
Serbia – Antisemitic Graffiti on the Wall of the Nis Death Camp
On 16th January 2006, antisemitic graffiti including “The Holocaust is a Jewish lie”, “Serbia for the Serbs”, “Work frees” (the slogan over the entrance to the Auschwitz death camp) were seen on the walls of the death camp at Nis (central Serbia). The graffiti appeared on the 64th anniversary of the slaughter of 1,100 Jews and Gypsies at the camp. (JPost)
05-02-2002 /
Serbia – The Yugoslav Orthodox Church Denounces Antisemitism
25-03-2005 /
Serbia – Antisemitic Graffiti on the Wall of a Cemetery
The following antisemitic graffiti were discovered on the wall of the Jewish cemetery in Belgrade: “Let’s all hold up against the Zionists in the conquering of Serbia on 7th October”, the drawing of a Star of David and the logo B-92 (B-92 is a television station run by Jews), “Jewish parasites, get out of Serbia. We want freedom; we don’t want Jewish conquerors, Serbia for the Serbians”!
21-03-2005 /
Serbia – A Television Program on Antisemitism
On 21st March 2005, the Studio B Television Network broadcast a special program devoted to antisemitism. The program was devoted to recent acts of antisemtism and attempted to understand increasing intolerance to minorities in Serbia. Interviews were held with Serbian Deputy Prime Minister Labus, the President of the Federation of Jewish Communities in Serbia/Montenegro, Aca Singer, and Israeli Ambassador Ben Ari. The participants spoke of the increase in incidents of antisemitism in Serbia and warned that reference is to a social problem relating to attitudes towards minorities and said that steps must be taken in the spheres of legislation, punishment and education in order to deal properly with the phenomenon.
05-12-2003 /
Serbia – A Threatening Letter Sent to the Jewish Community in Belgrade
On 5th December 2003, an e-mail letter was received by a senior member of the Jewish community in Belgrade. The letter, from an anonymous source, was written in Serbian and included threats of physical harm to members of the Belgrade Jewish community.
28-10-2008 / Serbia
Serbia - Antisemitic graffiti on monument to victims of the 2nd World War
Antisemitic graffiti was scrawled by unknown vandals on the monument to victims of the 2nd World War in Novi Sad .
A swastika and the numbers 18, which represents “Adolf Hitler” and 88 for “Heil Hitler” were scrawled on the pavement in front of the monument.
The monument was build in memory of 1,300 Jews, Serbs and Roma who were killed and their bodies were thrown into the Danube in January 1942 by Hungarian fascists.
Source: http://www.la-croix.com
24-01-2008 / Serbia
Serbia - Sleeping with Hitler in a Serbian hotel
The President Hotel in Belgrade, Serbia, is offering guests the unique opportunity to spend the night with some of the most famous - and most notorious - world leaders of all time. Each room in the hotel is designed around a different president, prime minister, or dictator.
The most controversial is Room 501, the “Hitler room,” outfitted with a portrait of Adolf Hitler wearing a swastika patch. The hotel’s owner, Dusan Zabunovic, claims this room, at roughly $200 a night, is his most requested.
Despite drawing criticism from the Anti-Defamation League over the Hitler room, Zabunovic claims that he hasn’t designed the rooms to glorify the dictator, but to remind people of his brutality:
“All his victims would turn in their graves if nowhere it is reminded what a monstrous criminal he was,” he told ABC news.
Source: http://www.gadling.com
Date: Jan 24, 2008
By Aaron Hotfelde
22-03-2005 /
Serbia – Antisemitic Leaflets and Graffiti in Belgrade
On 22nd March 2005, antisemitic graffiti were sprayed all over Belgrade (including on the walls of the Jewish Community Building and the Human Rights Foundation Building). The graffiti read, among other things: “Jewish parasites get out of Serbia”! In addition, leaflets were distributed in the center of the city calling for the boycott of the B-29 television station because of its anti-Serbian activities, with the station’s logo painted inside a Star of David. The Serbian Government issued an official announcement denouncing these antisemitic publications and the attack on freedom of the media and said that it would take the proper measures designed to punish those responsible. The Government believes that the messages directed against the Jewish Community in Serbia are unacceptable and that quick and efficient measures should be taken to deal with the phenomenon. The Government’s statement also said that these publications are in complete contradiction of its policy of preserving stability and an atmosphere of tolerance. The Serbian Foreign Minister has demanded that the Serbian Government track down and punish those elements distributing the publications.
02-06-2009 / Serbia
Serbia - Cemetery desecrated in Subotica
A Jewish cemetery in Subotica, was vandalized and 11 gravestones destroyed.
Source: http://www.b92.net/
28-08-2006 /
Serbia - Grave anti-Semitic incident in Belgrade
A group of Skinheads assaulted two Israeli citizens in Belgrade, singing “ Auschwitz” as they attacked them. The two Israeli were beaten by the hooligans wearing Nazi t-shirts and singing Nazi songs. The victims have identified the two attackers detained by the Belgrade police. One of them is a Serbian, while the other is a US citizen of Serbian origin.
17-05-2005 / Canada
Canada – Establishment of a New Organization to Fight Antisemetism
On 17th May 2005, a new organization was established called Fighting Anti-Semitism Together – FAST. The members of this organization, all of whom are non-Jews, will wage a determined antisemitism prevention campaign and have invited other non-Jewish Canadians to work together with them in eradicating what they call “the most ancient hatred in history”. The organization is headed by Tony Comper, the President of the BMO Bank and his wife. The organization includes 21 other prominent businessmen such as the Presidents of the largest banks in Canada as well as presidents of huge firms in the sphere of communications, insurance, real estate and food. The Compers are very much concerned with the increasing antisemitism in Canada, and have decided to do something about it in cooperation with Jewish, organizations. Tony Comper and one of the other participants in the new initiative, John Hunkin, (General Director of the CIBC bank), have been honorary members of Bnei Brith for the past two years.
17-03-2007 / Serbia
Serbia - Vandals deface Novi Sad synagogue
A swastika was sprayed on the Novi Sad synagogue’s facade on Saturday, 17 March 2007.
Source: http://www.b92.net
Date: 17 March 2007
Posted: 20 March 2007
25-06-2005 /
Serbia – A Neo-Nazi Convention in Novi Sad
On 25th June 2005, a convention of a fascist neo-Nazi movement was held in Novi Sad where bands from Britain and Slovakia performed. The event was organized by a radical right-wing organization called “The Movement for the Preservation of Serbian Nationalism”, which belongs to the “Blood and Honor” network of movements. The authorities were aware that the convention was to be held, but did nothing to cancel it although some of the participants were wanted by Interpol and use was made of Nazi symbols which is prohibited by Serbian law.
Date: November 8, 2007
20-02-2005 /
Serbia – Publication of a List of Jews on a Neo-Nazi Internet Site
During the fourth week of February 2005, both the electronic and the written press in Serbia dealt at length with the publication of list of Serbian Jews over a Serbian neo-Nazi Internet site. The media behaved with considerably responsibility in the matter by not publishing the address of the site or the names of the people involved and related exclusively to the broad racist aspect of the case, protesting the publication of a list based solely on religion and ethnicity. The press published the reactions of the Mr. Zinger, the President of the Federation of Jewish Communities, and of Professor Phillip David a well-known and respected Jewish author, who denounced the publication of list and warned against increased antisemitism in Serbia. Zinger said that aside from the reaction of the media, nothing on the matter had been forthcoming from any of the Serbian authorities. On 23rd February 2005, the “Fonet” News Agency reported that the Deputy General Prosecutor in Belgrade Branko Stamenkovic announced that charges would be brought against the participants in the Internet forum who spread racism, nationalism and religious hatred.
23-10-2007 / Serbia
Serbia– Anti-Semitic Literature on Sale at a Book Fair in Belgrade
Between 23rd and 28th October an international book fair was held in Belgrade. This year, too, anti-Semitic books were displayed and offered for sale. The books were sold at the stall that “specializes” in various kinds of nationalist and racist literature, including “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion” and many books of the conspiracy theory and anti-West genre containing unmistakably anti-Semitic elements. This kind of literature is especially popular in Serbia following the NATO bombings in the 1990s. Many of the books are signed by the Serbian “Ichtus – Christian Literature” publishing company whose owners were accused in court of disseminating racist hate literature, but the legal proceedings were stopped on technical grounds.
The President of the Union of Jewish Congregations in Serbia sent a letter to the fair’s administration protesting the displaying of thes books. In the letter, he demanded that the anti-Semitic books be removed and that in the future the stall owners be required to sign a commitment to refrain from displaying such literature. A copy of the letter was sent to representatives of the Serbian government, and some parts of it were published in the media as a reaction.
The fair’s director denounced the display of literature that encourages hatred and ethnic racism but claimed that the fair’s administration is not responsible for the books displayed in the various stalls. Nevertheless, he instructed his people to demand that those displaying these books remove them from the stalls.
Date: October 23, 2007
23-03-2005 /
Serbia – Antisemitic Graffiti in the Town of Negotin
On 23rd March 2005, graffiti sprayed on a number of buildings in the eastern Serbian town of Negotin: on a technical school, business establishments and the offices of the Association for Human Rights. In addition to swastikas and Stars of David, the graffiti included slogans such as “Inter-racial equality is a Jewish trap” and “Serbia for the Serbs”.
11-12-2001 /
Serbia – Antisemitic Accusations on State Television in Belgrade
On 11 December 2001, a priest called Zharkan Gavrilovic, known as an outspoken antisemite, appeared on Serbian State Television and presented his theory of antisemitism to the viewers. According to him, unlike other religions, Judaism does not prohibit incest and many Jews marry their sisters in order to keep their property within the family. He claims that evidence for this theory is the fact that the number of children born deaf-mutes in Jewish families far excedes the numbers in Christian Orthodox and Catholic families. The reason for this is that Orthodox Christianity explicitly prohibits incest.
01-12-2008 / Serbia
Serbia – A commemorative plaque disfigured in Brza Palanka
Graffiti have been bombed on a commemorative plaque in the village.
In the past, a synagogue stood in the site.
02-12-2006 / Serbia
Serbia – memorial desecrated
On 2 December unidentified hooligans desecrated the Topovske Šupe memorial dedicated to the Jews and Romas who perished in the WW2 Nazi pogroms in the area. The memorial was opened on January 27 this year
http://www.b92.net/
21-04-2005 /
Serbia – Memorial Service Marking the 60th Anniversary of the Liberation of the Jasnobac Concentration Camp
On 21st April 2005, the exhibition entitled “They Were Only Children” was opened in Belgrade, marking the 60th anniversary of the liberation of the Jasnobac concentration and extermination camp. At the opening ceremony, which was organized by the Church and was under the auspices of the Ministry of Culture, participants included the Orthodox Patriarch Pavle, the Minister of Defense for Serbia and Montenegro, Prvoslav Davinic, Serbian Minister of Culture Dragan, the Chief of the General Staff Dragan Paskas and representatives of the diplomatic corps including the Ambassadors and Croatia and Poland. Jasnobac was the largest concentration camp in Croatia and 600,000 people were murdered there. Most of the victims were children, and the exhibition shown in the Ministry of Culture Building is dedicated to them. The exhibition is based on the book by Dragoje Lukic which includes the names of 19,432 children exterminated in Jasnobac. In an address by Patriarch Pavle he mentioned the large number of children among the victims in the extermination camp stressing that the victims had been murdered because of their religious and national affiliation. Markovic Jovan, one of the exhibit’s organizers said that the testimonies bear witness to the fact that the terror activity had been organized in such a way as to victimize minority groups.
02-06-2009 / Serbia
Serbia - Cemetery desecrated in Sombor, Subotica
An Orthodox cemetery was vandalized in Stapar and that about 200 gravestones were knocked down.
Source: http://www.b92.net/
All this without almost any Jews! Attacking Graves could not be tolerated without popular support.
Comment by yamit82 — June 4, 2009 @ 10:09 pm
jrob
All this is the tip of the iceberg and without Jews? Desecrations of Jewish Graves especially vile.
Even if most of the population is not directly participating, their silence encourages those who do.
Serbia – A law against the neo-Nazis
A proposal for a law forbidding neo-Nazi’s organizations and the use of Nazi symbols is taking shape in Serbia. The Law is submitted by the ruling parties, the DS and the LSV.
10-10-2002 /
Serbia – A Threatening Letter Sent to the Jewish Community in Belgrade
On 10th October 2002, a letter arrived at the office of the Jewish Community in Belgrade. The letter, which had been sent by regular mail from an unknown address, was written in Serbian. It included curses, taunts and antisemitic and anti-Israel epithets and even a call for the immediate evacuation of the Israeli Embassy or else the Embassy employees, and Jews in Serbia in general, would be danger of armed attack.
12-05-2003 /
Serbia – Antisemitic Letter to a Local Journalist in Belgrade
Some time around 12th May, a local journalist in Belgrade received a hate/threatening letter concerning the Jewish and Israeli communities in Belgrade. It was an anonymous letter from an unidentified address and had arrived by regular mail. The letter was signed by the Organization of Young Revolutionaries in Serbia. The letter was in Serbian and was typed. The letter is reminiscent in style and form of a letter received previously by the Jewish Community in October 2002. The letter was sent to this journalist following an interview he had held with personnel from Israeli Embassy in February 2003. In addition to curses, insults and verbal abuse the letter contained a threat to the Ambassador and the Embassy staff calling on them to leave Serbian territory immediately otherwise the Ambassador, the Embassy staff and Jews in Serbia in general would be exposed to attacks by those responsible for the letter.
16-01-2006 /
Serbia – Antisemitic Graffiti on the Wall of the Nis Death Camp
On 16th January 2006, antisemitic graffiti including “The Holocaust is a Jewish lie”, “Serbia for the Serbs”, “Work frees” (the slogan over the entrance to the Auschwitz death camp) were seen on the walls of the death camp at Nis (central Serbia). The graffiti appeared on the 64th anniversary of the slaughter of 1,100 Jews and Gypsies at the camp. (JPost)
05-02-2002 /
Serbia – The Yugoslav Orthodox Church Denounces Antisemitism
25-03-2005 /
Serbia – Antisemitic Graffiti on the Wall of a Cemetery
The following antisemitic graffiti were discovered on the wall of the Jewish cemetery in Belgrade: “Let’s all hold up against the Zionists in the conquering of Serbia on 7th October”, the drawing of a Star of David and the logo B-92 (B-92 is a television station run by Jews), “Jewish parasites, get out of Serbia. We want freedom; we don’t want Jewish conquerors, Serbia for the Serbians”!
21-03-2005 /
Serbia – A Television Program on Antisemitism
On 21st March 2005, the Studio B Television Network broadcast a special program devoted to antisemitism. The program was devoted to recent acts of antisemtism and attempted to understand increasing intolerance to minorities in Serbia. Interviews were held with Serbian Deputy Prime Minister Labus, the President of the Federation of Jewish Communities in Serbia/Montenegro, Aca Singer, and Israeli Ambassador Ben Ari. The participants spoke of the increase in incidents of antisemitism in Serbia and warned that reference is to a social problem relating to attitudes towards minorities and said that steps must be taken in the spheres of legislation, punishment and education in order to deal properly with the phenomenon.
05-12-2003 /
Serbia – A Threatening Letter Sent to the Jewish Community in Belgrade
On 5th December 2003, an e-mail letter was received by a senior member of the Jewish community in Belgrade. The letter, from an anonymous source, was written in Serbian and included threats of physical harm to members of the Belgrade Jewish community.
28-10-2008 / Serbia
Serbia - Antisemitic graffiti on monument to victims of the 2nd World War
Antisemitic graffiti was scrawled by unknown vandals on the monument to victims of the 2nd World War in Novi Sad .
A swastika and the numbers 18, which represents “Adolf Hitler” and 88 for “Heil Hitler” were scrawled on the pavement in front of the monument.
The monument was build in memory of 1,300 Jews, Serbs and Roma who were killed and their bodies were thrown into the Danube in January 1942 by Hungarian fascists.
Source: http://www.la-croix.com
24-01-2008 / Serbia
Serbia - Sleeping with Hitler in a Serbian hotel
The President Hotel in Belgrade, Serbia, is offering guests the unique opportunity to spend the night with some of the most famous - and most notorious - world leaders of all time. Each room in the hotel is designed around a different president, prime minister, or dictator.
The most controversial is Room 501, the “Hitler room,” outfitted with a portrait of Adolf Hitler wearing a swastika patch. The hotel’s owner, Dusan Zabunovic, claims this room, at roughly $200 a night, is his most requested.
Despite drawing criticism from the Anti-Defamation League over the Hitler room, Zabunovic claims that he hasn’t designed the rooms to glorify the dictator, but to remind people of his brutality:
“All his victims would turn in their graves if nowhere it is reminded what a monstrous criminal he was,” he told ABC news.
Source: http://www.gadling.com
Date: Jan 24, 2008
By Aaron Hotfelde
22-03-2005 /
Serbia – Antisemitic Leaflets and Graffiti in Belgrade
On 22nd March 2005, antisemitic graffiti were sprayed all over Belgrade (including on the walls of the Jewish Community Building and the Human Rights Foundation Building). The graffiti read, among other things: “Jewish parasites get out of Serbia”! In addition, leaflets were distributed in the center of the city calling for the boycott of the B-29 television station because of its anti-Serbian activities, with the station’s logo painted inside a Star of David. The Serbian Government issued an official announcement denouncing these antisemitic publications and the attack on freedom of the media and said that it would take the proper measures designed to punish those responsible. The Government believes that the messages directed against the Jewish Community in Serbia are unacceptable and that quick and efficient measures should be taken to deal with the phenomenon. The Government’s statement also said that these publications are in complete contradiction of its policy of preserving stability and an atmosphere of tolerance. The Serbian Foreign Minister has demanded that the Serbian Government track down and punish those elements distributing the publications.
02-06-2009 / Serbia
Serbia - Cemetery desecrated in Subotica
A Jewish cemetery in Subotica, was vandalized and 11 gravestones destroyed.
Source: http://www.b92.net/
28-08-2006 /
Serbia - Grave anti-Semitic incident in Belgrade
A group of Skinheads assaulted two Israeli citizens in Belgrade, singing “ Auschwitz” as they attacked them. The two Israeli were beaten by the hooligans wearing Nazi t-shirts and singing Nazi songs. The victims have identified the two attackers detained by the Belgrade police. One of them is a Serbian, while the other is a US citizen of Serbian origin.
17-05-2005 / Canada
Canada – Establishment of a New Organization to Fight Antisemetism
On 17th May 2005, a new organization was established called Fighting Anti-Semitism Together – FAST. The members of this organization, all of whom are non-Jews, will wage a determined antisemitism prevention campaign and have invited other non-Jewish Canadians to work together with them in eradicating what they call “the most ancient hatred in history”. The organization is headed by Tony Comper, the President of the BMO Bank and his wife. The organization includes 21 other prominent businessmen such as the Presidents of the largest banks in Canada as well as presidents of huge firms in the sphere of communications, insurance, real estate and food. The Compers are very much concerned with the increasing antisemitism in Canada, and have decided to do something about it in cooperation with Jewish, organizations. Tony Comper and one of the other participants in the new initiative, John Hunkin, (General Director of the CIBC bank), have been honorary members of Bnei Brith for the past two years.
17-03-2007 / Serbia
Serbia - Vandals deface Novi Sad synagogue
A swastika was sprayed on the Novi Sad synagogue’s facade on Saturday, 17 March 2007.
Source: http://www.b92.net
Date: 17 March 2007
Posted: 20 March 2007
25-06-2005 /
Serbia – A Neo-Nazi Convention in Novi Sad
On 25th June 2005, a convention of a fascist neo-Nazi movement was held in Novi Sad where bands from Britain and Slovakia performed. The event was organized by a radical right-wing organization called “The Movement for the Preservation of Serbian Nationalism”, which belongs to the “Blood and Honor” network of movements. The authorities were aware that the convention was to be held, but did nothing to cancel it although some of the participants were wanted by Interpol and use was made of Nazi symbols which is prohibited by Serbian law.
Date: November 8, 2007
20-02-2005 /
Serbia – Publication of a List of Jews on a Neo-Nazi Internet Site
During the fourth week of February 2005, both the electronic and the written press in Serbia dealt at length with the publication of list of Serbian Jews over a Serbian neo-Nazi Internet site. The media behaved with considerably responsibility in the matter by not publishing the address of the site or the names of the people involved and related exclusively to the broad racist aspect of the case, protesting the publication of a list based solely on religion and ethnicity. The press published the reactions of the Mr. Zinger, the President of the Federation of Jewish Communities, and of Professor Phillip David a well-known and respected Jewish author, who denounced the publication of list and warned against increased antisemitism in Serbia. Zinger said that aside from the reaction of the media, nothing on the matter had been forthcoming from any of the Serbian authorities. On 23rd February 2005, the “Fonet” News Agency reported that the Deputy General Prosecutor in Belgrade Branko Stamenkovic announced that charges would be brought against the participants in the Internet forum who spread racism, nationalism and religious hatred.
23-10-2007 / Serbia
Serbia– Anti-Semitic Literature on Sale at a Book Fair in Belgrade
Between 23rd and 28th October an international book fair was held in Belgrade. This year, too, anti-Semitic books were displayed and offered for sale. The books were sold at the stall that “specializes” in various kinds of nationalist and racist literature, including “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion” and many books of the conspiracy theory and anti-West genre containing unmistakably anti-Semitic elements. This kind of literature is especially popular in Serbia following the NATO bombings in the 1990s. Many of the books are signed by the Serbian “Ichtus – Christian Literature” publishing company whose owners were accused in court of disseminating racist hate literature, but the legal proceedings were stopped on technical grounds.
The President of the Union of Jewish Congregations in Serbia sent a letter to the fair’s administration protesting the displaying of thes books. In the letter, he demanded that the anti-Semitic books be removed and that in the future the stall owners be required to sign a commitment to refrain from displaying such literature. A copy of the letter was sent to representatives of the Serbian government, and some parts of it were published in the media as a reaction.
The fair’s director denounced the display of literature that encourages hatred and ethnic racism but claimed that the fair’s administration is not responsible for the books displayed in the various stalls. Nevertheless, he instructed his people to demand that those displaying these books remove them from the stalls.
Date: October 23, 2007
23-03-2005 /
Serbia – Antisemitic Graffiti in the Town of Negotin
On 23rd March 2005, graffiti sprayed on a number of buildings in the eastern Serbian town of Negotin: on a technical school, business establishments and the offices of the Association for Human Rights. In addition to swastikas and Stars of David, the graffiti included slogans such as “Inter-racial equality is a Jewish trap” and “Serbia for the Serbs”.
11-12-2001 /
Serbia – Antisemitic Accusations on State Television in Belgrade
On 11 December 2001, a priest called Zharkan Gavrilovic, known as an outspoken antisemite, appeared on Serbian State Television and presented his theory of antisemitism to the viewers. According to him, unlike other religions, Judaism does not prohibit incest and many Jews marry their sisters in order to keep their property within the family. He claims that evidence for this theory is the fact that the number of children born deaf-mutes in Jewish families far excedes the numbers in Christian Orthodox and Catholic families. The reason for this is that Orthodox Christianity explicitly prohibits incest.
01-12-2008 / Serbia
Serbia – A commemorative plaque disfigured in Brza Palanka
Graffiti have been bombed on a commemorative plaque in the village.
In the past, a synagogue stood in the site.
02-12-2006 / Serbia
Serbia – memorial desecrated
On 2 December unidentified hooligans desecrated the Topovske Šupe memorial dedicated to the Jews and Romas who perished in the WW2 Nazi pogroms in the area. The memorial was opened on January 27 this year
http://www.b92.net/
21-04-2005 /
Serbia – Memorial Service Marking the 60th Anniversary of the Liberation of the Jasnobac Concentration Camp
On 21st April 2005, the exhibition entitled “They Were Only Children” was opened in Belgrade, marking the 60th anniversary of the liberation of the Jasnobac concentration and extermination camp. At the opening ceremony, which was organized by the Church and was under the auspices of the Ministry of Culture, participants included the Orthodox Patriarch Pavle, the Minister of Defense for Serbia and Montenegro, Prvoslav Davinic, Serbian Minister of Culture Dragan, the Chief of the General Staff Dragan Paskas and representatives of the diplomatic corps including the Ambassadors and Croatia and Poland. Jasnobac was the largest concentration camp in Croatia and 600,000 people were murdered there. Most of the victims were children, and the exhibition shown in the Ministry of Culture Building is dedicated to them. The exhibition is based on the book by Dragoje Lukic which includes the names of 19,432 children exterminated in Jasnobac. In an address by Patriarch Pavle he mentioned the large number of children among the victims in the extermination camp stressing that the victims had been murdered because of their religious and national affiliation. Markovic Jovan, one of the exhibit’s organizers said that the testimonies bear witness to the fact that the terror activity had been organized in such a way as to victimize minority groups.
02-06-2009 / Serbia
Serbia - Cemetery desecrated in Sombor, Subotica
An Orthodox cemetery was vandalized in Stapar and that about 200 gravestones were knocked down.
Source: http://www.b92.net/
Comment by yamit82 — June 4, 2009 @ 10:17 pm
Yamit82
The silence of Ted, Bill and others who write so much is deafening
Yet this is the most serious attack.
Can I ask Yamit82 what exactly his aim is here, what is his purpose.
Is it to prove that there is antisemitism in Serbia?
Who is denying this here?
And what does that prove exactly, about the proud history of the Serbs, and about the present thinking and consciousness of the Serbs.
About this actual history Yamit 82 and whoever he is quoting from is largely silent.
And who here is defending the programme of Tito or the programme of the Stalinists?
Comment by Felix Quigley — June 5, 2009 @ 3:27 pm
Felix:
Felix as the outspoken defender of Zionism as the cure for antisemitism, You above any should understand my points. Antisemitism is a given everywhere even in places with little or no Jews. Zionism has not and will not be a cure for antisemitism, period. The Balkan mishmash of conflicting narratives and historical revisionism is beyond the scope of a casual bystander. While on the face of it I tend to favor the Serbs in the last Nato air destruction of Serbia, something tells me that inspite of everything they had it coming to them. Not because they were better than their enemies or worse but because they were stupid. They counted on Russia to cover for them and payed dearly for that misplaced belief. They were warned and ignored the warnings. They were arrogantly too wrapped up in killing Muslims to prepare for what they were warned would come. If you are going to buck a Superpower you better have some strong cards in your favor and they had none.
Rights and wrongs in any historical narrative are always toggled to support one side or the other. I don’t believe the Serbs were as bad as Clinton and Co. made them out to be but then history is always on the side of the victors and the Serbs lost. The Serbs always seem to have lost.
point one: Serbia is no friend of Israel or the Jews. Don’t recount some indivdual efforts on behalf of some Jews. The Jews were liquidated in Serbia like most of the rest of Europe and as I have shown the Nationalist Chetniks helped the Nazis.
Every country where concentration camps and death camps were built was where the local population or at least enough of them either supported the Nazis or were antisemitic to a high degree or both. Serbia had concentration camps. That fact alone should tell you without much research were most Serbs stood. I only here speak of Serbs due to yours and others messianic ferve in promoting and advocating Serbian narratives. I an’t buying it at least not how it has been presented by you jrob and others. While doing some checking because mainly your hard advocacy I came up against other contentions, narratives and what is purported to be facts mast of the conflicting with yours. I am not in a position to absolutly confirm or reject any of them but my intuition says there are no good guys here dirty and all complicit in the crimes and misdemeanors they are accused of and I mean all of the ethnic groups in the Balkins. a look at their sordid histories brings me to the conclusion that they have all behave one to another as they always have and probably alwaays will given the chance.
Since I said that antisemitism is a given everywhere including Serbia, without any Jews ( that makes this variety Pathological) How the general population deals with it, is critical or should be in whether Jews support Serbia or not. Thumbs down so far.
Any country siding with my enemies like the Palis, Iran, etc can never gain my support even if their historical recod past and preset were snow white relative to their Jews and here they are certainly not snow white.
That said, with all the similarities between Serbia and Israel their are much more that is dissimilar and I see no reason why any Jew should take sides in the Balkan quagmire. Few understand it few see it effecting them few really care. If it were up to me I would see all of Europe save none buried under many mushroom clouds. I see Europe as the largest Jewish cometary in the world. If dry dead bones could speak to us today, I think they would concur with my position.
We Jews owe nobody especially the Europeans anything, not even good will. Even when they are right [but] then we really don’t care any more if some are right. We are way past that emotion.
Comment by yamit82 — June 5, 2009 @ 5:17 pm
How does one defend the indefensible?
Comment by yamit82 — June 5, 2009 @ 5:25 pm
Yamit don’t look now!!
Correct me if I am wrong but t it appears that peskin found a friend in dweller.
Birds of a feather flock together.
Both are peas in a pod.
I don’t know peskin well but from what I see of dweller, this boy needs professional help.
Comment by rongrand — June 5, 2009 @ 6:12 pm
Yamit,
I notice that pretty much all of your articles are post 1991 or so, which is when the US commandeered full control of their media. Currently, the only Jew left in Sarajevo works for George Soros.
You really shouldn’t trust much of anything beyond that point, but moreso you should wonder why JI or Andy Wilcoxson would put so much effort into lying for Serbs.
http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,766569,00.html
That article is from 1942, when truth could actually get into the msm. Have you ever read any of Freda Kirchwey’s work in the Nation in the late 1940s?
Do you also think it is fiction?? The time article isn’t fiction, nor is Kirchwey’s work. It’s the post 1948 re-writes that are fiction. I’ve studied it much, and Mihailovic is their Jabotinsky: the defiant Serb condemned to eternal slander in re-written history.
Comment by jrob — June 6, 2009 @ 1:19 am
Why would anyone want to know Peskin?
Dweller I am afraid I rang his bells and he is now ding aling ing .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCGo0KGluXI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MLBfwblps8&NR=1
Comment by yamit82 — June 6, 2009 @ 1:32 am
Jrob it’s strange that anytime anybody writes or posts any article negative of Serbia past or present you Felix and others debunk them as part of some conspiracy or neo fascist plot etc.
I am not taking any sides in the current Balkan conflicts nor can I sift through all of the conflicting narratives. Well I could I suppose if I had a mind too which I don’t. I really don’t give a damn about Serbia or any of the other FYR. Why should I? As a Jew and an Israeli I see nothing positive there as both Jewish and Israeli standpoint..
Give me reasons to change my opinions
Comment by yamit82 — June 6, 2009 @ 1:56 am
rongrand-According to Charles Martel, who left Israpundit in a huff several months ago, I Peskin am dweller - just another guise . But seriously rongrand, was it not marvellous how beautifully dweller pummeled Yamit. I know that you join me in congratulating dweller for doing the right thing. For delivering
verbal blows- for justice, mercy and humanity. God bless you dweller.
rongrand, I am very pleased that you finally have seen the light and turned against that ogre, Yamit.
Comment by h peskin — June 6, 2009 @ 1:57 am
rongrand, I am very pleased that you finally have seen the light
peskin, don’t credit me with seeing the light.
Hell, if anything I am in the complete dark.
I have no clue as what is going on.
First of all the dialogue going on with dweller (you, if I am to believe what you say) and yamit is so darn long I don’t the patience or attention span to stay with it.
Comment by rongrand — June 6, 2009 @ 2:24 am
Perhaps, in the same way Arafat’s rejection of the Clinton plan was a blessing, this demand too is a blessing in disguise, in that it provides a deal breaker, & so an honorable way for Israel to get out of the ungodly 2-state solution track.
Comment by soren — June 6, 2009 @ 2:35 am
rongrand:
You missed nothing- It was a dialogue between the deaf, dumb and just plain stupid. Utter gibberish. Instead of wasting your time reading rot, why don’t you access the beautiful though cryptic poem Kaddish- by Ginsberg which I posted several days ago. It is found further up on this site. post 60.
Ron, after I get through with your education, you’ll be transformed- a new man. I believe you have the potential to be properly educated.
You have been exposed to the most dangerous dudes on this earth, They supercede B. Laden by far.
Comment by h peskin — June 6, 2009 @ 2:37 am
soren
You too have been brainwashed. ISRAEL WANTS AND NEEDS A TWO STATE SOLUTION. Pure and simple. Don’t believe the fascistic rot that you keep reading here. Israel desparately needs to rid itself of the onerous task of maintaining an occupation. Israel is unable to rule a large number of people who don’t wish to be under Israeli rule. The present situation is an occupation despite the fiction of having a P.A. What Israel wishes is to have some real support in the face of the Iranian peril. Palestine is just a bargaing chip to exchange for ensuring that Iran does not achieve its nuclear ambitions. The Palestinian situation is very much a secondary concern.
Comment by h peskin — June 6, 2009 @ 2:56 am
Yamit82
You may not care about Yugoslavia, about what happened to it, but we do care greatly.
The determining factor in all of human life today is the historical crisis in capitalism. Indeed it is not accurate to limit this to “human” life, the life of the animal world and all life is threatened in more than one way by this historical crisis.
It is necessary to begin with the reality of this crisis. This reality however can only be grasped historically, this is essentially the real meaning of historical materialism, not an empty phrase out of Marx or Engels, but the living and cruel reality of today.
In our recent past the attack by Imperialism allied with the forces of Islam on the Serbs of Serbia and Yugoslavia was allied to the ongoing attack by precisely these very same forces on the Jews in a great stirring of anti-Semitism
Trotskyist leadership needed as Serb Quislings betray Karadzic
Our analysis of July last year was the following
The BBC in its hourly reports today on the arrest by Serb Quislings of the Bosnian Serb patriotic leader Radovan Karadzic stated, without blushing, that the Serb army entered Srebrenica, murdered 7000 men and boys, and buried them in one mass grave.
As we on 4international have shown in many articles this is a Big Lie, part of the Orwellian Big Lie technique. I personally have looked high and low for evidence that the Serbs carried out even ONE single murder on retaking Srebrenica and the evidence simply is not there.
But remember we live in the period of the Mohammed El Durra France 2 affair, of Jenin and of Qana. All these were supposed to be “massacres” of Palestinian Arabs by Israel but on investigation proved to be hoax.
Srebrenica is different only in so far as the Big Lie has been more thoroughly maintained by the Media. I expect that this is the result of a number of factors. Srebrenica was promoted as central in throwing the full force of American Imperialism against the Serb nation and its leader Milosevic. Then also there are very many jouirnalists like Oliver Kamm and Maggie O’Kane who made their name by reporting this fictitious massacre. Plus there is a strong Quisling element in Serbia itself.
Now they will try to pin this Big Lie fictitious “massacre” on Karadzic
But he had better be careful. If he defends himself too strenuously and too efficiently he is in great danger of being simply killed by the Hague, just as Slobodan Milosevic was murdered in his prison cell. The defence of this patriotic Serb thus has become a revolutionary matter of the first importance.
We have already dealt with the background to the Big Lie technique as expressed by the admission by none other than Eliah Izetbegovic himself on his deathbed:
[begin quote here]
The late Islamofascist Bosnian leader, Alija Izetbegovic, former illegitimate “president” of Bosnia Herzegovina, illegal ursuper of power in 1990 from the duly elected Bosnian muslim leader, Mr.Fikret Abdic, is the one behind the Bosnian “death camp” fraud.
Izetbegovic admitted it to former UNMIK head Bernard Kouchner on his death bed in 2003. He told Bernard Kouchner that he lied about Trnopolje and Omarska being “death camps” in the hope of provoking NATO bombing against the Bosnian Serbs. This monstrous media hoax was used in order to demonize the Serbs as the “new Nazis”of Europe, to trivialize the horrors of the Holocaust, to turn the world - and especially Jewish people - against the Serbs, and to enable the US & NATO/EU Imperialist governments to further dismember Yugoslavia into a series of politically weak NATO/EU-run protectorates.
The Joseph Goebbels Nazi style “Big Lie”was spread world-wide with the mainstream media-connected resources of a multi-million dollar funded American “public relations”& lobbying firm called ‘Ruder Finn’ - whom also worked as a lobbying group in Washington on behalf of the Islamist Nazi terrorist KLA and Tudjman’s HDZ Fascist neo-Ustasha Nazi racist government responsible for the ethnic cleansing of over 550,000 Krajina province Serbs from 1990 to 1995 and for the murder of at least 20,000 Serbs during the same period.
Izetbegovic, the man described by ITN,BBC,CNN,the Guardian et al, as a:
“secular muslim and moderate democrat committed to a multi-ethnic Western style liberal democracy”was in fact committed to genocide of all non-muslims (i.e., mainly Serbs).
Well before the outbreak of war in 1992, Izetbegovic PUBLICLY announced his commitment to genocide by having his Islamist version of Hitler’s Mein Kampf (his 1970 manifesto, “The Islamic Declaration” - which was a call for Jihad and the extermination of non-Muslims - re-published in 1990 as part of his Bosnian election campaign).
[end quote here]
From
The ITN/Guardian Trnopolje & Omarska ”Death Camp”Hoax: The Lies of the British Guardian & ITN Exposed
By 4International writers: Joshua Rosenberg, Nathan Pearlstein, Max Rosenthal & Peter Robert North
http://4international.wordpress.com/2008/03/09/the-itnguardian-trnopolje-omarska-death-camp-hoax/
Comment by Felix Quigley — June 6, 2009 @ 1:51 pm
Why this attack on the Serbs as a people. Yamit82 and his friends are not one bit interested in Serbs who are anti-Semitic rather than in proving that these represent the Serb people as a whole. It is part of the Big Lie technique and there is no doubt that that is what Yamit82 and his friends are doing here. And the main people on Israpundit are refusing to take a position.
This is the biggest issue which is faced by the Jewish people today
The essence of the politics of Yamit82 which represents a definite trend within the Jewish world outlook is that all non Jews are hostile to Judaism. That Jews have got to look into themselves in order to survive.
This is why Yamit82 stands along with the racists of Churchill and Roosevelt when he says that every dead Russia saves an American and that this was the strategy which he approves of. This is reactionary and foul racism which has the stink of the Nazis attached to it.
I would venture the thought also that Yamit82 is ideologically on the side of Weizman and ben Gurion while we Trotskyists are more on the side of Jabotinski and Stern. Yamit82 would have been for an elite going to Palestine in 1933 to 45 as ben Gurion wanted.
So we can see that bourgeois Judaism, the present Israeli Government and elite basically, and the elite of the Jewish movement internationally, seek hope in alliance with some bourgeois regime or another, usually this is the American Government, sometimes they speculate it may be Russia etc
Then there are the Yamits. They say that Jews alone will succeed on their own, and that the supernatural being will create a miracle which will save his chosen, and even if the supernatural does not save them and another Holocaust will ensue then that is still all for the best, because this supernatural does know best. These kinds of people have actually used the Holocaust as part of the great design in order to bring the Jews back to Israel.
The only other political trend that there is and there is only one other is Trotskyism. Historical analysis stands on the side of Trotskyism as being the only way forward for the Jews. There are a number of vital principles
1. The class struggle is decisive
2. The capitalist crisis means that the capitalist system can offer no way out for the poor in any country
3. Fascism arises out of capitalism in crisis almost as night follows day. To confront the issue of Fascism we have to confront the issue of capitalism in crisis
Yamit82 misunderstands when I refer to him as a good Jewish man, a patriot. There are many and will be many Jewish patriots who will fight for their country and nation, in some cases for religious ends, but they will not fight in such a way that they will win. And if they do not win then what are the stakes.
In the 1930s it was the murder of 6 million Jews in Death Camps along with the World War Murder Machine of many more non Jews, with huge displacements of peoples
The stakes may be even worse today because a nuclear wipe out is on the cards
The answer of Yamit82 to my political point above was “How very Trotsky of you”
My conclusion. This is the response of a hippy type, somebody who rubbishes what a genuine friend of Israel and the Jews offers. May seem smart, but on further reflection will come across as strategically speaking lethal.
Yamit82 seeks continually to isolate the Jews.
That is the real meaning of his attack on the Serbs as a people and an ally of the Jews. We know that Kamm, Cohen, Hitchens and all these Guardian and Independent Milosevic haters were liars, what Yamit has done is to make their lies seem all right. He has justified their lies and in this respect think Jenin, think Qana and think El Dura.
In summing up
People should ask
No 1
Can Jews win this battle on their own
No 2
Nan Jews win in alliance with any capitalist power
No 3
Is there an alternative to 1 and 2
Comment by Felix Quigley — June 6, 2009 @ 1:54 pm
h peskin, I thought you knew I was a Bible-believing Christian? Given that, a 2-state “solution”, giving up even one inch of land is not an option, period, per the Word of God (& not in the “New Testament” either, but the Tanakh). It is the Bible, not Israpundit, that makes land concessions…including Jerusalem “sharing”…a no, a non-negotiable no. Not a grey area in the Bible, not a difficult matter either though the world says it is. It’s one of the simplest, if not the simplest decision to make in the world, because it is so repeated & so repeated unequivocally: do. not. give. up. any. land.
Comment by soren — June 6, 2009 @ 1:54 pm
soren beautiful ans. correct ans. the only ans. Too bad the Jews don’t believe in G-d anymore. We will pay a steep price for this apostasy.
That a Christian understands Jewish core beliefs of all or should I say the overwhelming majority of posters here on Israpundit underscores just how disconnected Jews have become with the principles of Judasim and anything related to Judaism , the Tanach, as well as Jewish history and philosophical thought. It may be that never in our long history havce Jews been so ignorant and disconnected from Judaism. I doubt many Jews today could ans. the simple question of WHY BE JEWISH?
Judaism was not a religion it was the juxtoposition of a a chosen people in a chosen land under the Laws given to the Jews at Sinai. People, Land, Torah. So called ethnic Jews living still in the Galut have retained none of the above. They have at best made or corrupted Judaism into something never meant A RELIGION, and then made it into a religion similar to those other s around them.
Not one inch, not a grain of sand even nor tribute. Our answer to such demands must always be a willingness to go to war.
Milchemet Mitzva!! War of Obligation. That also means no compromises when either the Lives of Jews are threatened, The land threatened and Judaism threatened. For faithful Jews this is a no-brainer.
Comment by yamit82 — June 6, 2009 @ 6:21 pm
Yamit,
There is some indication that covertly, Israel supported Serbia:
http://www.emperors-clothes.com/articles/nico/diabolic.htm
Just as Israeli leaders often have to bow down to the US and shake hands with people like Abbas or Thaci, Serbian leaders have to do the same. But behind the scenes, they have the same enemy–US supported SS Handzar, and seem to have worked together.
Comment by jrob — June 6, 2009 @ 6:50 pm
Who is WE Kimosabe? Capitalism the root of all Trotskyite Evil? Most People would say that Socialism and Communism is, especially if they live under such a system/. Others might disagree with you and give lack of God and not following in the manner that god would have us live and behave between us and among us ( Humans and Animals ). Some would say that Islam.
I propose a Hypothetical: Take the most communist State in the world today (Your choice) and America and suppose America would open her doors wide for one and all to come and live and Your communist state were to open her doors wide to anyone wishing to come and live there I guarantee that 90% of those in your communist Paradise would the be living in America. America is the only western
country without a declining population due to immigration legal and illegal.
Actually Judaism has the most ethical social and economic system and laws. They have proven themselves over time 3500 years and your system has if anything been proven not workable because it denies that which you do not believe in HUMAN NATURE> IT presupposes that complex organisms like human societies can be created, manipulated, and managed by cadres of incompetant bureaucrats, clerks, and by a few elites( Every system produces elites) at the top. Central planning never worked and never can. Humanbeings are too varied and complex to accede to central planning for long they will always and eventually rebel. A ideology is considered true if it stands up to the test of time and even the Communist experiment failed that test. You may attribute everyone and their grandmothers for that failure but failure it was. So why keep beating a dead horse find something else to captivate your inquisitive energies that really can work, something new and blue with no past record to copare it with. Wait a few hundred years and see if it weas successful.
Felix really I don’t care who was right in Serbia Kosovo, Bosnia, Croatia etc. I said and still believe there are no really good guys here only different historical narratives. These ethnic groups have been killing each other for over a thousand years. I said at least twenty times here and in the past that I believe in this case the Serbs got the Shaft and the reasons I think in many ways they had it coming to them. That is only my personal opinion and not based on substantive facts. In this conflict every body got facts. Face it they lost as they always do and nobody sides with perennial losers. Israel is also a case in point. We started losing it when we started to give up to the Arabs. Begin the shit got it all started and it has been a slow downhill slide since then.
It is better to be Herod’s pig than his sons
Comment by yamit82 — June 6, 2009 @ 8:13 pm
Felix we don’t take positions on myriads of things. This site is primarily I think relating to Israel Advocacy.
Who is attacking Jew hating Serbs? I see them as no better or worse than almost any other European country. I never brought them up jrob did. then you. I would have supported them if they could of held the line against the Muslim incursion into to the soft underbelly of Europe but then, I must admit I really do have deep seeded dislike and even hatred of all Europeans. I stay away from them unless I can’t avoid it. Every European alive today is the son grandson or great grandson of someone who killed my relatives so why should I or any other Jew have any empathy or sympathy for any of them. That said a certain amount of contact is necessary, business must be transacted in the modern world and even some strong personal relationships can be entered into but from a historical and emotional point of view, I would not be saddened if Islam really devoured all of Europe or a few hundred mushroom clouds were to be seen floating skywards. Every rat has his day and they must have theirs. Historical if not G-d’s judgement must be seen to have been meted out.
Isn’t it an interesting statistic that in just over 60 years since the end of WW2 that anti-Semitism in Europe stands almost exactly where it stood in 1939. Isn’t it interesting that the country in Europe where anti-Semitism is the strongest is where you now live Felix Spain!
Things and people appear not to have changed at all for the better. Human nature does have its constants.
I don’t see how you can read into anything I have ever said that I sided with FDR and Winnie? I opposed them from a Jewish point of view as vehemently as anyone and more than even you. You are groping for reasons to attack me on other than the facts and truth of the matter. casting aspersions in an argument is the last resource of a debater with nowhere to go because he can’t defend his postulates on facts and truths.
Re: allied policy in WW2 with regards to Russia. Not racism but historical facts and if the Allies were not nice they were doing what anyone else would do in their positions remember that Russia was Hitler’s ally until Hitler betrayed Stalin and invaded Russia. America helped the Russians with material assistance and the Russians tied up half the German army. This enabled the allies and especially the Americans to train and build up their forces and supply for the invasion. The more Russia took the hit of the Germans the less troops there were to fight the allies and on any military balance sheet every German soldier, dead wounded and out of the theatre of the allies meant less allied soldiers killed and wounded. Good trade off and why should anybody cry in their Borscht over Russians? Yes I realize many Jews fought in the Red Army and Many died but that goes with the territory of staying so long in the exile. In WW1 Jews fought ea other from the German side and from the American French and British side. A big no no in Judaism, Jews are forbidden from killing other Jews unless those pose a threat to other Jews.
WOW,No I opposed the socialist and commie pigs as much if not more than Vladimir Jabotinski. I would not say I favoured elites! I favoured only those with a fighting and pioneering spirit. They would have been my first choice in saving. I would have rejected all socialist and commie pigs as well. Palestine had already enough of them and look how much damage they have sown even though they were always a minority here. In the end they died because they didn’t head Jewish Law and G-d to leave the exile and return home. They cling to that exile and paid the price. G-d may have been correct in destroyin such Jewry but such a G-d is not a merciful G-d as the victims can attest to. G-d’s ways are not man’s ways
Yes with G-ds help. Not miracles Felix we don’t believe in such. G-d manipulates history and nature. Useless to second guess the Judge of the universe, we only see what we see and understand only that which we understand, which is not much. On ther other hand we have G-d’s prophesies and promises to the Jewish people and for that matter to all mankind and up till now it seems he has kept his side of the contract it is we who haven’t kept ours.
Look at the cause and effect side. Would Israel have come about if not the holocaust? Maybe yes maybe no but the is a linear symmetry in our history that is not time bounded. Columbus a crypto Jew financed by Jews of Spain on the very eve of the expulsion from Spain landed in the new world using Jewish maps by Jewish mapmakers with a partially Jewish crew and Hebrew interpereters could not save Spanish Jewry but the New world 450 years later was the very place of refuge for other millions of Jews. Such is the manipulation of Jewish history by G-d. Most of the exiles from Spain went east and after 48 their descendants came home to Israel. Full circle in Jewish history. In 1967 the great granddaughter of Dryfus came home to Israel. Full circle. There are millions of such historical circles closing. With the perspective of time we cannot in most cases perceive what is happening onlw from a cxertain point in time can we see clearly that which in the present is not apparent.
skipping her I am tired of typing:
People should ask
No 1
Can Jews win this battle on their own Yes
No 2
Nan Jews win in alliance with any capitalist power Already ans. in question #1 redundant question
No 3
Is there an alternative to 1 and 2 I already ans. in #1 redundant question
Comment by yamit82 — June 6, 2009 @ 9:50 pm
Yamit82
I propose a Hypothetical: Take the most communist State in the world today (Your choice) and America and suppose America would open her doors wide for one and all to come and live and Your communist state were to open her doors wide to anyone wishing to come and live there I guarantee that 90% of those in your communist Paradise would the be living in America. America is the only western
country without a declining population due to immigration legal and illegal.
Actually Judaism has the most ethical social and economic system and laws. They have proven themselves over time 3500 years and your system has if anything been proven not workable because it denies that which you do not believe in HUMAN NATURE> IT presupposes that complex organisms like human societies can be created, manipulated, and managed by cadres of incompetant bureaucrats, clerks, and by a few elites( Every system produces elites) at the top. Central planning never worked and never can. Humanbeings are too varied and complex to accede to central planning for long they will always and eventually rebel. A ideology is considered true if it stands up to the test of time and even the Communist experiment failed that test. You may attribute everyone and their grandmothers for that failure but failure it was. So why keep beating a dead horse find something else to captivate your inquisitive energies that really can work, something new and blue with no past record to copare it with. Wait a few hundred years and see if it weas successful.
Felix really I don’t care who was right in Serbia Kosovo, Bosnia, Croatia etc. I said and still believe there are no really good guys here only different historical narratives. These ethnic groups have been killing each other for over a thousand years. I said at least twenty times here and in the past that I believe in this case the Serbs got the Shaft and the reasons I think in many ways they had it coming to them. That is only my personal opinion and not based on substantive facts. In this conflict every body got facts. Face it they lost as they always do and nobody sides with perennial losers. Israel is also a case in point. We started losing it when we started to give up to the Arabs. Begin the shit got it all started and it has been a slow downhill slide since then.
It is better to be Herod’s pig than his sons
Comment by yamit82 — June 6, 2009 @ 8:13 pm
Felix I have no friends and whether 10% or 50 % of Serbs are Jew Haters or neutral is of little concern to me except that it has existed and still exists is enough fore me not to trust them and even give a damn about them unless there is an overriding Jewish and Israeli interest in doing so.I challenged you to show me what our Jewihs and israeli interests might be?
It is part of the Big Lie technique and there is no doubt that that is what Yamit82 and his friends are doing here. And the main people on Israpundit are refusing to take a position.
Felix we don’t take positions on myriads of things. This site is primarily I think relating to Israel Advocacy.
Who is attacking Jew hating Serbs? I see them as no better or worse than almost any other European country. I never brought them up jrob did. then you. I would have supported them if they could of held the line against the Muslim incursion into to the soft underbelly of Europe but then, I must admit I really do have deep seeded dislike and even hatred of all Europeans. I stay away from them unless I can’t avoid it. Every European alive today is the son grandson or great grandson of someone who killed my relatives so why should I or any other Jew have any empathy or sympathy for any of them. That said a certain amount of contact is necessary, business must be transacted in the modern world and even some strong personal relationships can be entered into but from a historical and emotional point of view, I would not be saddened if Islam really devoured all of Europe or a few hundred mushroom clouds were to be seen floating skywards. Every rat has his day and they must have theirs. Historical if not G-ds justice and judgement must be seen to have been meted out.
Isn’t it an interesting statistic that in just over 60 years since the end of WW2 that anti-Semitism in Europe stands almost exactly where it stood in 1939. Isn’t it interesting that the country in Europe where anti-Semitism is the strongest is where you now live Felix Spain!
Things and people appear not to have changed at all for the better. Human nature does have its constants.
T
I don’t see how you can read into anything I have ever said that I sided with FDR and Winnie? I opposed them from a Jewish point of view as vehemently as anyone and more than even you. You are groping for reasons to attack me on other than the facts and truth of the matter. casting aspersions in an argument is the last resource of a debater with nowhere to go because he can’t defend his postulates on facts and truths.
Re: allied policy in WW2 with regards to Russia. Not racism but historical facts and if the Allies were not nice they were doing what anyone else would do in their positions remember that Russia was Hitler’s ally until Hitler betrayed Stalin and invaded Russia. America helped the Russians with material assistance and the Russians tied up half the German army. This enabled the allies and especially the Americans to train and build up their forces and supply for the invasion. The more Russia took the hit of the Germans the less troops there were to fight the allies and on any military balance sheet every German soldier, dead wounded and out of the theatre of the allies meant less allied soldiers killed and wounded. Good trade off and why should anybody cry in their Borscht over Russians? Yes I realize many Jews fought in the Red Army and Many died but that goes with the territory of staying so long in the exile. In WW1 Jews fought ea other from the German side and from the American French and British side. A big no no in Judaism, Jews are forbidden from killing other Jews unless those pose a threat to other Jews.
.
WOW,No I opposed the socialist and commie pigs as much if not more than Vladimir Jabotinski. I would not say I favoured elites! I favoured only those with a fighting and pioneering spirit. They would have been my first choice in saving. I would have rejected all socialist and commie pigs as well. Palestine had already enough of them and look how much damage they have sown even though they were always a minority here. In the end they died because they didn’t head Jewish Law and G-d to leave the exile and return home. They cling to that exile and paid the price. G-d may have been correct in destroyin such Jewry but such a G-d is not a merciful G-d as the victims can attest to. G-d’s ways are not man’s ways
Then there are the Yamits. They say that Jews alone will succeed on their own, and that the supernatural being will create a miracle which will save his chosen, and even if the supernatural does not save them and another Holocaust will ensue then that is still all for the best, because this supernatural does know best. These kinds of people have actually used the Holocaust as part of the great design in order to bring the Jews back to Israel.
Yes with G-ds help. Not miracles Felix we don’t believe in such. G-d manipulates history and nature. Useless to second guess the Judge of the universe, we only see what we see and understand only that which we understand, which is not much. On ther other hand we have G-d’s prophesies and promises to the Jewish people and for that matter to all mankind and up till now it seems he has kept his side of the contract it is we who haven’t kept ours.
Look at the cause and effect side. Would Israel have come about if not the holocaust? Maybe yes maybe no but the is a linear symmetry in our history that is not time bounded. Columbus a crypto Jew financed by Jews of Spain on the very eve of the expulsion from Spain landed in the new world using Jewish maps by Jewish mapmakers with a partially Jewish crew and Hebrew interpereters could not save Spanish Jewry but the New world 450 years later was the very place of refuge for other millions of Jews. Such is the manipulation of Jewish history by G-d. Most of the exiles from Spain went east and after 48 their descendants came home to Israel. Full circle in Jewish history. In 1967 the great granddaughter of Dryfus came home to Israel. Full circle. There are millions of such historical circles closing. With the perspective of time we cannot in most cases perceive what is happening onlw from a cxertain point in time can we see clearly that which in the present is not apparent.
skipping her I am tired of typing:
People should ask
No 1
Can Jews win this battle on their own Yes
No 2
Nan Jews win in alliance with any capitalist power Already ans. in question #1 redundant question
No 3
Is there an alternative to 1 and 2 I already ans. in #1 redundant question
Click to Edit
Comment by yamit82 — June 6, 2009 @ 9:59 pm
So then why bother with anything! Why do anything! if the almighty is merely pulling strings on the mere mortals.
This is a pathetic vision which you have of mankind.
It is essentially devoid of history. There is no beginning or end and history can be twisted into any contortion which fits the supposed outworkings of a supernatural.
Even the murder of 6 millions.
And always there is the “hope” that the supernatural will intervene and will preserve the Jews.
Well I do not believe this.
There is every chance that the Jews as a nation will go under and in time will be but a memory.
There is no guarantee in reality as opposed to your supernatural beliefs that the Jews will survive as a race and Israel as a nation. None whatsoever.
Strip away the supernatural from the position of Yamit82 and he leads into a trap. And even more important can be seen leading into a trap.
With Israel stripped of Judea and Samaria, with it stripped of Jerusalem as its capital, as the President of the US and the majority of US jews are campaigning for, if Iran and other Islamist states have a nuclear bomb, then who will remain in Israel under those conditions.
All of these things are very much on the cards as we speak.
So it ill behoves any Jew living today to talk about how the Serbs were not able to withstand the NATO steam roller. And how they found themselves isolated.
The great crime and it will be an historical crime is that the Jewish leaders were part of this isolation of the Serb people.
You Yamit82 played your part in this thread. So did Belman, Narvey and the rest who write regularly on Israpundit (conveniently claiming ignorance I suppose) who did not defend the Serbs on this thread against your and your new found friend Cohen´s slanders.
Comment by Felix Quigley — June 10, 2009 @ 2:30 pm
Felix from what I can gleen Cohen has impeccable credentials even if you don’t agree with his findings. In order to discredit his findings you have to first discredit Cohen. Go ahead. I await your conclusions.
regarding the Jewish G-d of History: We are granted a certain degree of free will; within that context of free will we make choices some good some bad even tragic ones. We know based on biblical prophesy what the end will be. We believe it Felix what can you do? You believe in Trotsky I believe in the G-d of Abraham Issac and Jacob, that in it’s self is a historical definition of G-d. Who then is our Jewish G-d? The God of our forefathers. Our choices are in how we arrive and how soon we arrive to the prophesied end of history. Not miracles but G-d works through the natural order of things (nature) So the question thus might be is an earthquake just an earthquake, or a hurricane just a hurricane? Is the timing of any naural disaster coincidental or directed?
Now I believe that since our Book the Tanach forbids any Jew from relinquishing any part of the land of Israel abd we do just the opposite, a very negative result will come to pass not because of Obama or Russia or even Iran, but we essentially have rejected G-d by rejecting his will through his revealed commandments. So we will do our thing and hope that the almighty will not judge us too harshly not because we are deserving but inspite of ourselves.
Unlike you I remain a Jewish optimist full of concern and some trepidation but also faith That HaShem will help us through this dangerous time in our history. I believe we should do our thing and let the almighty do his.
Felix rationalism is the real trap. Fear of another Human and not the creator of the world is the real trap. It goes to the root of purpose. If your existence has no purpose if all things are a matter of chance undirected then your rationalism would have value. Certainly the Greeks believed in rational thought which is circular., Jews do not believe in abstracts. Our belief in G-d requires us to ask what G-d whats of us in every action or potential action and then act accordingly. How do we know what G-d wants from us? It’s in our books.
Do nothing? Hardly we are commanded to act but only in certain ways and that differentiates the chasm between you and me.
Felix forget the Serbs its a dead issue today. Lessons may be drawn but then as in most cases who learns historical lessons? We repeat every previous mistake, pay a heavy even tragic price, almost never understanding why but the promptly do it again. Human Nature!
Comment by yamit82 — June 10, 2009 @ 4:48 pm