Arabs want a two-stage solution not a two-state solution
By Ted Belman
Ze’ev B. Begin, currently a Likud Cabinet Minister, in The Secret of failure wonders why Annapolis didn’t succeed particularly after the generous offer made by Olmert.
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The Washington Post on May 25 reported that according to PLO Chairman Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen), prime minister Olmert accepted the principle of the “right of return” for Arab refugees and offered to resettle thousands in Israel. Abbas also said that Olmert offered him 97% of Judea and Samaria (after Israel had already withdrawn from Gaza in 2005). In addition, last week Newsweek reported that Olmert had told them that he proposed that Israel would give up its sovereignty in the “Holy Basin” in Jerusalem and suggested that it be jointly administered by Saudi Arabia, Jordan, the PLO, Israel and the United States; this was confirmed by PLO negotiator Saeb Erekat.
He asks
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Why, then, didn’t the moderate PLO leadership embrace such an extreme Israeli offer?
Why indeed. According to Abbas “The gaps were wide.”
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THE TRUTH IS, of course, that nothing more can be done on the part of Israel. Unintentionally, Olmert took the veil of moderation off the face of the PLO. When the claim is raised that the PLO would actually suffice itself with a symbolic gesture concerning the thorny refugee issue, its refusal to accept Olmert’s proposals proves that the PLO truly intends to apply the “right of return” of refugees to their original homes in Haifa and in Jaffa, in Lod and Beersheba. PLO leader Ahmed Qureia (Abu Ala) explained lately to Haaretz that “it’s not fair to demand that we recognize you [Israel] as the state of the Jewish people because that means… a predetermination of the refugees’ future, before the negotiations are over. Our refusal is adamant.” To prevent misunderstanding, Mahmoud Abbas, in his Washington Post interview, rejected the possibility that the PLO recognizes Israel as a Jewish state because it would imply renunciation of any large-scale resettlement of refugees.
Why is it that Abbas recognizes the importance of Israel’s demand for recognition whereas the left in Israel think it is a meaningless demand?
Begin rightly concludes,
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…it should be recognized that the resettlement of refugees in Israel is not the goal but the instrument. All signs indicate that the goal is the cancellation of Israel as a sovereign state in Palestine, and that this is the source of the PLO’s adamant refusal to accept Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people. Hence, even Israel’s withdrawal to the 1949 armistice demarcation line - even that which runs through Jerusalem - and even its agreement to assume responsibility for the plight of the refugees and resettle thousands of them in Israel, will not bring about the termination of the struggle, but will rather lead to the next chapter of prolonged hostility.
Its severe significance was proven last year, when in the course of talks PLO negotiators were explicitly asked whether, after an agreement is reached to their satisfaction, they would agree to include in it a specific article stating that this puts an end to the dispute and terminates all further claims. The government did not bring to the public’s attention the fact that to this simple question, the PLO leadership ominously answered in the negative.
The necessary conclusion therefore is that the moderate organization for the liberation of Palestine from Jewish sovereignty is not interested in the “two- state solution” but rather in a “two-stage solution.” In the first stage, an Arab state is to be established alongside Israel and in the second stage, following the resettlement of refugees within Israel, one Arab state is to be established, stretching from the Jordan river to the Mediterranean Sea.
Begin argues that the “two-state solution” cannot be realized.
Unfortunately, he misses the point when he concludes that
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“There will be no end to this dismal hundred-years dispute so long as the position of the Arab leadership in Samaria, Judea and Gaza does not fundamentally change.”
But there will be an end if the position of Jewish leadership changes and annexes Judea and Samaria. Well maybe not end, for sure not end, but at least Israel will no longer be arguing about refugees, Jerusalem and borders. Then its task will be to function within democratic precedents, not necessarily norms, to slowly make loyal citizens of them or ask them to leave. Keep in mind that we will outnumber them 2:1.
Hugh Fitzgerald in his terrific piece Stop This Naive Talk About “Two Peoples” and About a “Solution”
recommends for countries at risk for being overcome demographically like those in Europe
- … there should be a halt to Muslim immigration, a return-to-sender of all illegal Muslim immigrants, and a stripping of citizenship from all those who cannot offer — without perjuring themselves — loyalty to the political and legal institutions that exist.
There should also be other requirements, cultural and linguistic, demanded for naturalization, including a raising of the age of marriage, an enforcement of the laws against polygamy, a monitoring of the mosques to ensure that hatred of, and violence toward, Infidels is nowhere to be found (and that strips Islam of so much that makes Islam, Islam).
A made-in-Israel program along these lines has been discussed and drafted.
So why are we still beating the dead horse of the Oslo Accords.
Since we cannot expect them to give up their religious beliefs which are tied directly to their political and military objectives, then Arab countries need to be engaged in the re-settlement of Arab refugees to parts of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Saudi, Lebanon, etc.
It is pointless to negotiate a hudna that just leads to more violence, more demands, and more land giveaways in return for endless hell with Islamists who want to destroy Israel and Jews.
Comment by Gary — July 4, 2009 @ 1:18 pm
Gary, I prefer to have a made in Israel solution. Once we need someone else’s agreement we can be prevented from proceeding. So we must do this on our own. Twenty percent of Israelis are Arabs but they vote in only 8% of the Knesset. And they are all citizens. With the extra 1.4 million that Israel will be taking in they will only be residents at the beginning. Many will leave if they don’t want to live in a Jewish state or with Jews. Many will be induced to leave with compensation. Many will be expelled for seditious conduct. Some will choose to apply for citizenship though the bar will be very high. And so on.
It wont be easy. The Arabs will continue to propagandize against Israel. They will also attack us militarily or with terror. But we are used to that. At least we will be building a state which includes Judea and Samaria.
Comment by Ted Belman — July 4, 2009 @ 2:31 pm
Ted we are now on the same page.
Here is an example unrelated but methodology as to how it can work:
Christianity is kosher
The Supreme Court ruled that a Christian (”Jews for Jesus”) baker from Ashdod is entitled to a kosher certificate for his bakery.
It is obscene to see the atheistic court meddling in purely religious matters. The law of kashrut requires the baker to be Jewish, or at least to delegate important tasks to Jews. The Supreme Court has ruled in past immigration cases that conversion to Christianity is incompatible with Jewishness.
In practice, the rabbis would accord the Christian baker kosher supervision, but they would supervise him to the death of his business.
Comment by yamit82 — July 4, 2009 @ 7:29 pm
Rabbi Dov Lior: Expel the Arabs
Speaking at the newly rebuilt ‘illegal’ outpost of Maoz Esther, Hebron’s chief rabbi, Dov Lior, called on supporters to clear the country of “terrorists, their supporters, their backers, and their camels.”
Since Gush Katif, Zionist rabbis have become increasingly militant, though not nearly militant enough to call on good Jews to stand against the treacherous government.
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Forest arson, as usual
About 250 acres of forests burned down in the Galilee. As happens every summer, friendly Israeli Arabs set them on fire.
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They Burned My Trees
By Rabbi Meir Kahane
I was depressed yesterday. Very, very sad. For I knew that they had burned my trees. As a child I had saved my money so carefully so that I could buy those trees and know that they were planted. And now they are burned. They must be burned. It is not logical that a million trees would be burned down and none of mine among them. No, they are burned.
Every week I would come to school and bring a nickel. And with that nickel I would buy a special stamp. A Jewish National Fund stamp. And every week I would paste that stamp on the figure of a tree which was part of a JNF poster, and which had twenty “leaves” on it. Each weeek I would paste my stamp on a leaf and at the end of twenty weeks, I had a tree! My Tree! And I did this for years because I was a good boy - a good Jewish boy. And I bought many trees. My trees. My Jewish trees.
And now they burned them. The Arabs and their intifada. Last year, within the sovereign State of Israel, that independant State which makes me so proud because it does not let anyone push it around - the Arabs burned 1.15 million trees. Some of my trees had to be among them. And I was sad.
But then I saw an advertisement by the Jewish National Fund which made me happy again and made me proud to be a Jew know that the Jewish National Fund does not let anyone push it around. The JNF placed an ad that let the Arabs know that we are not the Jews of old. No one burns our trees. Well, not exactly. What the JNF said was that if the Arabs burn our trees, we will show them: We will plant even more trees than they burned. Anything they can burn, we can plant better. If they burned 1.15 million, we will plant that much and ten million more - fully 11.5 million!
I was so happy. I ran to the bank to convert my money into nickels to buy leaves each week and plant new trees. I was so happy that the JNF had this wonderful idea until I me my neighbour. I never liked him. He is always so cynical and a killjoy. When I told him of the brilliant JNF idea to plant ten times the amount of trees that the Arabs burned, this dour wet-towel said:
“And what if they burn those? Will we plant 110 million trees the next time? And why should Jews have to pay again and again for trees that Arabs burn? Why not throw them out of the country? Why do we allow them to stay in the country if we know that they will burn our forests? And why should I be a sucker to help pay the fat salaries of JNF executives who see this as a golden opportunity for a Madison Avenue-type campaign that will keep their salaries going? If the JNF wants money from me, let them demand that the Arabs be thrown out so that I will know that I pay for a Jewish tree once.”
I never liked my neighbour. He is so cynical. He is so logical.
Comment by yamit82 — July 4, 2009 @ 7:42 pm
You are correct this is a seperation of church and state issue.
This neighbour is smart and has the right idea.
Throw the bums out.
Comment by rongrand — July 4, 2009 @ 7:51 pm
Yikes, I am beginning to realize how little I know about Israel and about how the status quo really does satisfy - to my amazement. I used to think that half a loaf was better than none at all before I realized a couple decades ago that Muslims are really out for blood, not for land, peace or the advancement of their people.
Now I hear from Ted and Yamit and others that there is no solution to the complex problems of refugees and land and; therefore, it is best to make it all one Jewish state with Arabs living side-by-side according to Jewish rules and culture under Israeli government. Does this idea not strike you as a huge impossible contradiction? Does this mean that Israel will no longer be a democracy or are you satisfied with a modified democracy (which would really be a non-democracy)? If Israel is having a hard time managing the existing infrastructure, then how would annexation make it any different (and probably worse)?
I would rather see a complete divorce but how that is accomplished to the benefit of the majority is a total mystery to me without Arab cooperation (and Arab cooperation is an oxymoron).
Comment by Gary — July 4, 2009 @ 8:04 pm
Jews need to annex Yesha. The only way Jews can honor G-d is by fulfilling His command. One cannot turn one’s back on the Divine Promise. The other side will never accept Israel. If you believe with all your heart, your soul and your being the land belongs to G-d, that is the end of the discussion. The Jew has no power to negotiate on His behalf with any one. Arab cooperation is indeed an oxymoron but Israel was established despite the lack of Arab cooperation. Israel liberated its lands in 1967 despite the lack of Arab cooperation. What is need not a complete divorce but doing what G-d commands. As it says in the Torah, He will then drive out the nations before you. Its not a question of what to do about the Arabs. Its a question of how Jews will show their love for G-d and esteem His laws before the nations of the world.
Comment by NormanF — July 4, 2009 @ 8:17 pm
I’ll speak only for myself on this issue. Why in the world did you ever believe that there is a solution to this problem. The problem is not refugees, it’s not the pali Arabs either. The biggest problem is and always has been the Jews themselves. Population transfer was always a consideration by early Zionist leaders but the majority of the communist mostly Russian escapees from from Lenin’s workers paradise created here what even the Ruskies never could, a democratic dictatorship of the workers proletariat.
The Allies at the Potsdam Conference explicitly sanctioned “orderly population transfers” of about 12 million ethnic Germans from Poland and Czechoslovakia after WWII. The Treaty of Lausanne allowed Greece and Turkey to expel one another’s minorities a little earlier. The world did not care when the Arab countries pushed out their Jews. The world accepted the Jews running out the Palestinians in 1948, and generally supports the Jews in refusing to allow them back in. The world is sensible, and would tolerate the expulsion of Arabs from Judea and Israel. The one thing the world hates is calls for compassion, especially from TV screens. So whatever Israel does about the Arabs has to be done swiftly and irreversibly; no refugee camps.
The Israeli government prevents the West Bank Arabs from emigrating. Instead, teach them useful employment, and they will move out. Young Palestinians, educated as doctors or engineers, will move to other Arab countries in search of better pay. The simple measure of distributing free condoms would considerably reduce the Arab birth rate. Boycotting Arab labor in Israel would push able males to emigrate, and their families would eventually join them. At the very least, we should crack down on the illegal labor market; forced to pay Israeli taxes, economically inefficient Arabs would emigrate. Reining in the theft-based Palestinian economy would cripple the Arab industries dependent on stealing electrical power, building materials, and other goods from Israel.
Basic enforcement of Israel’s laws on Arabs, such as making them pay taxes, serve in the army, and razing their massive illegal construction, would make Israel unattractive to Arabs. Property buyouts at fair value would also induce some Arabs to leave Israel for cheaper neighboring countries. After Israel pushes some Palestinians out with economic policies and induces others to emigrate through compensations, the number left to be expelled won’t be huge.
Israel will be in existential danger regardless of the policies concerning her Arabs and the Palestinian state. A Jewish state amid a sea of Muslims can never be safe, especially considering the Islamic prohibition of non-Muslim statehood in the Middle East. In any major conflict, Palestinians will be a fifth column because they are normal people and would like to have back the land they consider theirs. There is no reason for Jews to refrain from expelling the Palestinian Arabs.
I have some bad news for you Gary Jewish demographics and time will solve the democracy /Jewish problem 20-30 years the religious will have the majority at least in the Knesset. We just vote democracy to the trash can of many failed experiments. Would you prefer a majority of Arabs to vote out the concept of a Jewish state to prove democracy works.
I would rather see a complete divorce but how that is accomplished to the benefit of the majority is a total mystery to me without Arab cooperation (and Arab cooperation is an oxymoron).
There is no choice we transfer them one way or another in order to save all future bloodbaths. First step is overcoming generational brainwashing that it is immoral and non Jewish. Many ways of accomplishing transfer but there must first be a major change in our politically correct stupid values system.
Comment by yamit82 — July 4, 2009 @ 11:44 pm
Hanon, there must be something wrong with either you or me. We seem to agree on almost everything and that makes it difficult to debate against. Maybe you like the color red and I, green.
Making the choice you make is totally correct. Like a bad marriage, a quick divorce is urgent before it becomes nasty. It could be as simple as the Knesset, tomorrow, votes to annex Judea and Samaria, votes to make citizenship only after allegience is promised, demanding complete obedience to Isral’s laws, evicting those who will not obey, etc. and make it actionable within 60 days. Nice, clean cut and fast.
Now that is the way to take care of a festering cancer.
Comment by Ed D — July 5, 2009 @ 5:21 am
PM: Int’l consensus on 2-state solution major accomplishment
Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu on Sunday cited the international consensus on the two-state solution for an Israeli-Palestinian accord as a major accomplishment for his government in its first 100 days.
Prime Minister Binyamin…
Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu, right, speaks during the weekly cabinet meeting in Jerusalem.
Photo: AP
SLIDESHOW: Israel & Region | World
“For the first time, we brought an international agreement for the concept of two states for two peoples,” he said at the start of the weekly cabinet meeting.
The prime minister explained that the agreement was that “the Palestinians will need to recognize Israel as a Jewish state, the refugee issue will be resolved outside of Israel’s borders, and that Israel needs and will get defensible borders that include the full demilitarization of the Palestinian territory.”
Netanyahu also noted that in its first 100 days, his government had brought calm to the South.
“While Operation Cast Lead gave a broad foundation for calm, the quiet was also achieved through our offensive approach,” he said. “After Cast Lead, various Palestinian groups tested us, but deterrence was created when I gave the order to respond resolutely to every attack.”
“Although I cannot say that we have had 100 days of grace - in fact we haven’t even had one day of grace - thank god, we have no complaints,” he continued. “The main accomplishment was in the formation of a national unity government.”
Netanyahu stressed there was national unity both in the economic and diplomatic fields.
Also at the start of the meeting, Defense Minister Ehud Barak spoke of his upcoming trip to London where he is scheduled to hold talks with US Mideast envoy George Mitchell.
“I’m heading out to London today for a meeting that will take place tomorrow with US Mideast envoy George Mitchell and other officials, again, in a bid to advance a broader understanding between us and the US concerning the peace process,” he said. “That includes the regional comprehensive solution we greatly support, and also translating the Road Map - which Israel has accepted with reservations and understandings - to a way agreed upon by us, the US, and the other sides, in order to move the peace process forward and to create an opening for the Palestinians.”
Comment by yamit82 — July 5, 2009 @ 11:21 am
The ultra-religious believe in protecting and defending the faith more than the country and so that reality would not be a good thing (it would end in Israel’s demise)…I am for the separation of religion from government as much as that is possible just as I urge Muslim nations to do the same. I am also for real democracy and not theocracy.
I was just sent this piece on how many “Palestinians” are actually converted Jews (See: http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-279707). This means that if those Palestinians were released from the rule of their Muslim/PA/Hamas overlords, they would be happy in an Israel that was at peace with itself and able to bring refugees into the fold in very positive and productive ways. The others can leave or move to countries where they find comfort and unity with their coreligionists.
Comment by Gary — July 5, 2009 @ 1:06 pm
The ultra-religious believe in protecting and defending the faith more than the country and so that reality would not be a good thing (it would end in Israel’s demise)…I am for the separation of religion from government as much as that is possible just as I urge Muslim nations to do the same. I am also for real democracy and not theocracy.
I am not what you call ultra orthodox religious, but I see no major contradiction as per your example. Many more leftist secular Jews here are draft dodgers and even leave the country and that includes the Children and grandchildren of almost everyone of the founding Zionist fathers. Modern Hellenist(secular Zionism) is not sustainable. It has not been shown to be transmittable from one generation to another. Just like assimilationist Jewry in America and Canada: going going gone. The physical redemption of the land is hollow without the added spiritual redemption of the Jewish People. Defending the faith from whom? I guess from those like you Gary as if it were up to you and those like you Judaism would disappear in a few generation here as well. So the questions would then be Why be Jewish at all and certainly why Live here in Israel? Then why even should there be an Israel? Certainly you have a right to believe whatever pleases you but injecting concepts not only alien to Judaism but in opposition and in violation of core precepts of Judaism you have no right unless you can base your beliefs on Jewish sources. I oppose the Heredim for many reasons but not their loyalty to Judaism and their loyalty to the Land because a religious Jews knows you can’t have one without the other or be one without the other. That’s why whatever I may like or dislike about them they hold Jewish truth and have preserved those Truths from generation to generation. Their self made walls are high and exceedingly thick but slowly some cracks in the wall are appearing and I can see a day when many will loosen up a bit and meet middle way many now secular Jews becoming religious as is now happening in ever increasing numbers (a Quiet revolution). Canada is a good place for Jews who place democracy as their supreme value. But it ain’t Jewish. Judaism is not Jeffersonian Democracy. Majority rule? Judaism are fire and ice.
As long as they remain Muslim these hereditary cousins remain just that. As long as they want to kill me they must be considered my enemy and driven out or bought out but out they must go even If we have to initiate a war to accomplish it. Then if they wish to become Jews again they can start conversion processes, over the INTERNET from afar.. Until then some may be genetically related but it doesn’t award them any cupi dolls.
Comment by yamit82 — July 5, 2009 @ 5:25 pm
Yamit quoting Eldad quoting Meir:
I very much loved the statement of Golda Meir regarding the Palestinians: There is not such a people.
It was not as though there was a Palestinian People in Palestine considering itself as a Palestinian.
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Yesterday, As I was walking up the stairs
I saw a little man who wasn’t there
He wasn’t there again today
I wish that little man
Would go away.
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The number of Israelis (both civilian and military) who died in the second Intifida,converted to the equivalent U.S. population numbered 23,000.
That is quite a number when you consider that what the Israelis were confronted with was a rebellion of an invisible population.
But the important factor is that the whole world including Israel recognize the Palestinians as a people and that is what it is.
Comment by h peskin — July 5, 2009 @ 5:56 pm
peskin you bring up a good point.
Since this is an invisable population, then of course there is no need for them to have statehood and there should be no problem of relocation this invisible population into Jordan and Egypt.
By the way next time you walk up the stairs be sure this littlem man doen’t push your ass down the steps because you won’t have anyone to blame and nobody would believe you anyway.
Comment by rongrand — July 5, 2009 @ 6:11 pm
don’t think Israel recognizes such an obscenity but if we did? It was a mistake like You are a mistake for anyone in close contact with Peskin it might even be a fatal mistake. Go sniff some more glue!
Comment by yamit82 — July 5, 2009 @ 7:04 pm
Israpundit is a good place to express and explore ones core beliefs. You are probably right - if it were left to me, all religion would eventually disappear because I see mostly the negative side of belief systems such as Islam and Catholicism that have gained so much political and financial power that they have become Religion, Inc., with strong cult and totalitarian tendencies. I believe in religious freedom but that freedom ends when it threatens the lives and well being of its followers and those who are considered by Religion, Inc. to be non believers that the “faithful” cannot accept because they are not exactly like them.
I would like to remind you, Yamit, that I do more than my part to help Israel survive. Israel needs more friends like me and you are too eager to cut off your nose to spite your face if your faith has no place for allies because they are not created in your exact image. Where leftists (including many Jews in that sub-category) work for the destruction of Israel, I speak up for Israel’s survival. Maybe you think that G-d will do all that for us and that it is all safely predetermined for Israel, but I doubt it - Israel still needs human friends and supporters. Realism and religion seem to collide on that point.
Yamit, I think that you hold Jews to a standard that is unrealistic; and you are no better than the outside world in that vain who also hold Jews to a standard that is impossible to attain without sacrificing lives to achieve such impossible heights of perfection. I think that you would be more comfortable in an Islamic Republic such as Iran where the rules are hard and fast and justice swiftly meted out. Democratic society does not jive with your beliefs and that is unfortunate because I think that variety and choices are essential.
We will never agree about religion because you see religion as the main course; I see it as a side dish.
Comment by Gary — July 5, 2009 @ 9:04 pm
Gary you evaded my questions:
Why be Jewish? Why support Israel? Should there be an Israel? and then Why?
Why? that’s is what motivates you?
I don’t know what you do to help Israel survive but the question arises at least to me is: What kind of an Israel do you support? The Israel that many of us believe could be and should be or one that only mirrors your own beliefs and values, which seem to be far removed from anything Jewish?
It’s not my image, I am not a spokesman for anything or anyone except my own views but I base those views to the limited extent of my own knowledge on Jewish beliefs, thought and traditions. If I am in error pls. correct where I am. I learn something new every day. In the partnership between Jews and G-d ea must do his own part. G-d doesn’t do miracles outside of the Laws Of Nature. So in most cases only in hindsight do we sometimes see and understand his ways and his direct input in our historical process. Ea of us must do what we can and what is required of us and let G-d do his thing in his own way and own time. I never 2nd guess Hashem. Israel needs friends? Depends on who is declaring friendship, what they do or say that shows such friendships and then what is the price we must pay for such friendship. As often as not the price is too high and counter productive to our ends.
Whose concept of realism? Whose realism? Religion? Judaism is not a religion. Reform Judaism is a religion, Reconstructionalism is a religion, Christianity and Islam are religions but not Torah Judasim.
Am Yisrael,Eretz Yisrael, Torah. = Judasim (Jewish People, the land of Israel and Torah)
Judasim does not elevate the individual over the collective but Collective over the individual.
Strength inhibits assimilation. I am not afraid to say that the Jewish way of life is inherently better than any other. Jews are more ethical because we adhere to more ethical prohibitions. Judaism is about strength—social and moral. Only a strong society can expel deviants for every moral offense. Only a strong society unrelentingly executes and otherwise punishes those who threaten its moral integrity and ritual purity. Only a strong society exterminates Amalek.
Judaism is not a religion of self-immersion and quietly purifying one’s soul; it is not a monastic or individual religion. Judaism is about deeds, and the deeds invariably affect others: Arabs, homosexuals, criminals, and self-hating Jews. A peaceful homosexual next-door destroys the fundamental Jewish need for culturally homogenous neighbors. Atheist propaganda in school destroys even the best parents’ attempts to raise their children as good Jews. Good Jews cannot “live and let live,” but have to establish a Jewish habitat—not across the entire world, nor a continent-spanning empire, but on a tiny piece of land. It is the very smallness of the land which allows no compromise: the Jews literally have no room for compromise.
The reform rabbis initiate interfaith dialogues, speak about universal humanity (so marry a cannibal), and then are surprised at the assimilation rate. What is Jewish identity if our first identification is with humanity? On the contrary, the identification goes from the strongest to the weakest—family, nation, Jewish population of the Land of Israel, civilization, then humanity. The last identification is all-inclusive and therefore meaningless: identification is only possible on the background of opposites. Why be Jewish if Jews are humans like any others? Their rich traditions don’t make French or Italians to refrain from marrying others or assimilating into other cultures. Why go to the Jewish temple if it is a house of worship on par with that of any other religion? Why be loyal to Judaism if it is a religion like any other? Judaism hinges on a single question: Did God reveal himself on Mount Sinai? Jews would flock to synagogues if rabbis answered that question with a wholehearted, resounding Yes. Strength feeds on itself. People join the strong both for security and out of pride. When religious Jews make a strong, proud group, arrogant in its declared superiority, secular Jews will be happy to join them. The cure for assimilation is simple: strength of arms, associations, and beliefs. Assimilation is the consequence of political correctness; politically incorrect Jews who proclaim our religious superiority won’t assimilate.
God doesn’t need slaves, mindless instruments; Jews must be decent people, conscious of their worth, in order to be the beacon to nations.
Rabbis tried to make Jews nice, to make us “more pious than God.” Guess what, Jews are not nice. From those who fought under Abraham to those who robbed the Egyptians to those who knocked down the towns of Canaan to Dir Yassin—the Jews are anything but nice. Jews must serve God and their moral principles zealously, and how could humble people be zealous? Zeal is about certainty of one’s right and willingness to establish that right in the Land of Israel.
All Jews are fellows only in a relatively pure society. In the modern Diaspora or Israel there are many Jews whom the wildest lover of Jews wouldn’t call his fellows: atheist rabbis, corrupt politicians, the Peace Now members, ad infinitum. The injunction should be rephrased, with the emphasis on “fellow.” For example, “Treat with respect the Jews who accept Jewish values.” With such a wording, “Jews” becomes a meaningless qualification. A Gentile who accepts the yoke of Jewish values upon himself is as good as any Jew. The injunction can be meaningfully shortened to: “Respect those who accept Jewish values.” Such an injunction hinges on our own acceptance of Jewish values; we automatically respect those who share our system of values. The injunction, therefore, boils down to, “Accept Jewish values.” That is indeed the essence of the Torah.
Comment by yamit82 — July 6, 2009 @ 10:30 am
Yamit: You are so obsessed with self-righteousness that you alienate everyone else as a means to assert what you perceive as your special and exclusive relationship with your religious beliefs.
Comment by Gary — July 6, 2009 @ 12:39 pm
Ted, I’m fed up with Yamit’s childish insults. Why do you allow this moron to keep posting?
Comment by BlandOatmeal — July 6, 2009 @ 1:25 pm
Yamit: You are so obsessed with self-righteousness that you alienate everyone else
Gary still evading my questions to you? If I were trying to win friends and influence people then I would sound just like you. That said, I already have friends and as far as influencing people, well I can’t be an objective judge but I guarantee more read what I write than what you write. Then the question arises as to how and what one seeks to influence others. I do think we have substantiative differences of opinion but I can support and generally back mine up, can You?
Cut the BS Gary: Israel is a Jewish State predicated on our History and religion. The history and religion are the same in this context. Take out the religion you are left with history. So what! Everybody has history, The Arabs were settled on this land far longer than the Jews and they do have legit claims. Jews don’t share a common language, culture or history. what unites them is only Judaism and there is only one kind of Judaism that has proven itself to be true and real. How? By the test of time, The willingness of millions of Jews to die for their beliefs,and were it not for some of those human sacrifices Judaism would today be as dead as a DODO! The Jewish State if it were ever reconstituted would be today in Uganda or Siberia or Argentina etc. Jerusalem has no Jewish value other than religious. Tel Aviv was never part of Historical Israel, Haifa a Roman Pagan center and Cesarea you know. So even history in the coastal plains here were marginally Jewish at best historically. Judaism is the only glue to bonds one Jew to another generation to generation and I am not trying to convert you but to show you upon what I base my opinions. History has shown that secular or ethnic Jews assimilate and are lost after 2-3 generations only the grandchildren of reasonably religious Jews remain Jewish.
This then you call self righteous? Were there more like me and less like you we might not have to worry about all our international threats as there would be today hundreds of millions of Jews. I will go one better; The most atheist Jew living in the Land of Israel is more of a Jew than the greatest Torah scholar living in America or Canada. The Talmud considers them on par with idol worship and rejecting G-d.
The Rambam (Mimonides) writes:
It is forbidden at all times to leave Eretz Yisrael for the Diaspora except: to study Torah; to marry; or to save [one's property] from the gentiles [lit. the worshippers of the stars and signs]. [After accomplishing these ends,] one must return to Eretz Yisrael.
Mishne Torah, Sefer Shoftim, The Laws of Kings and Their Wars, Chapter 5, Halakha 9
Similarly, one may leave Eretz Yisrael to do business. However, it is forbidden [to leave with the intent] of settling permanently in the Diaspora unless the famine in [the land] is so severe that a dinar’s worth of wheat is sold at two dinars. When do these conditions apply? When one possesses financial resources and food is expensive. However, if food is inexpensive, but a person cannot find financial resources or employment and has no money available, he may leave and go to any place where he can find relief. Although it is permitted to leave [Eretz Yisrael] under these circumstances, it is not pious behavior.
Behold, Mahlon and Kilyon were two of the great men of the generation [of Ruth] and they left [Eretz Yisrael] only out of great distress. Nevertheless, they were considered by G-d to be worthy of death
The reason for the Land is its existence as place, not just any place, but the place in which revelation is to be
actualized.
A Jew who dwells in the Land ultimately is a reference to the Jew that not only subsists in Eretz Israel, but lives according to the statues defining life in the Land. Therefore, even one who transgresses is afforded forgiveness within the scope of the law of the Jewish polity. It is the system of law that gives definition to habitation in the Land and as a consequence, meaning to the Land. The halakha relating to this issue is the following.
Mishne Torah, Sefer Shoftim, The Laws of Kings and Their Wars, Chapter 5, Halakha 12.
In that all who leave [the land] for the Diaspora is as though he worships idols, as it is says: They have driven me out today from dwelling in the heritage of G-d, saying, ‘Go serve other gods.’ [Shmuel I 26:19] Similarly, [Ezekiel's (13:9) prophecies of] retribution state: They shall not come to the Land of Israel.
Just as it is forbidden to leave the Land for the Diaspora, so it is forbidden to leave Bavel for other lands, as it is written: They shall be brought to Bavel and there they shall be [until I take notice of them . . . and restore them to this place, i.e. the Land of Israel]. [Jeremiah 27:22]
Gary this is Judaism and nothing else: You want to change it Ok but then call what you change something else.
I have not invented a sing syllable it’s all Jewish sourced. Self righteous? Before you reject what you reject first learn what you are rejecting.
Comment by yamit82 — July 6, 2009 @ 3:04 pm
Bland err Mr. Schickelgrüber, you are correct, they are childish and foolish but complaints from our resident Nazi, ring hollow. You do have options why not pursue some of them?
Comment by yamit82 — July 6, 2009 @ 3:17 pm
Why be Jewish? On the topic of religion, I am non-committal and a non-participant so I have no good answer that would satisfy someone who believes in Yamit-ism.
Why support Israel? Because Israel is the biblical and historical home of the Jews and I want to make sure that Islamists do not take over the entire Middle East and the world as is their selfish, unreasonable desire dictated to them by their Koran.
Should there be an Israel? Yes; by asking that question then you, Yamit, probably have some unresolved doubts and confusion.
Comment by Gary — July 6, 2009 @ 7:13 pm
Yamit. Stop making personal attacks. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs.
Comment by Ted Belman — July 6, 2009 @ 7:55 pm
Nothing less than a public hanging will suffice:
I will gladly supply the rope—-At absolutely no charge.
Comment by h peskin — July 6, 2009 @ 11:58 pm
peskin, are you still seeing that little man at the top of the stairs you were talking about?
Thats what you get for drinking that crappy booze.
If you have a problem, get to a local AA, we will support you.
Go for it.
Comment by rongrand — July 7, 2009 @ 12:10 am