My visit to Kibbutz Ein Harod
By Ted Belman
Mike Packard, a longtime friend of Israpundit, invited me to spend Shabbat with him and his family in Kibbutz Ein Harod. I gratefully accepted. So on Friday I hopped on a bus in Jerusalem headed for Beit Shean.
The bus travelled down to Jericho, a trip I had taken in 1968 when I was first in Israel. The drop in elevation went from 2100 feet above sea level to 1200 feet below. What surprised me was that the Bedouin camps I remembered from the first trip were still there with their decrepit black tents and lifestyle. One cannot help but notice as one drives through the Judean Hills east of Jerusalem, the complete barrenness of the landscape which consists entirely of white-beige sandstone.
At Jericho, which is close to the north end of the Dead Sea, we turned left and traveled North parallel to the Jordan River. On the east side could be seen the very prominent Jordanian hills which dominate the valley. These hills are known as the Moabite Mountains from biblical times. It is where Moses died after G-d refused him entry into the promised land for doubting him. Joshua went on to cross the Jordan and conquer Jericho.
Progressively, as we moved north, farming communities appeared amidst the otherwise inhospitable surroundings. This farming is made possible because it is all done under plastic tents which serve to protect the plants from excessive sunshine and to capture evaporated water and return it to the soil. Before the soil was useable it had to be washed for weeks to cleanse it of excess salt.
Finally, we arrived at Beit Shean which is a community of some 16,000 residents mainly of Sephardic origin. It is a “frontier town” thereby entitling residents and businesses to various tax breaks. It sits about five miles north of the northern greenline.
From there we drove west for 10 miles to Kibbutz Ein Harod, my destination.
Mike was there to meet me and take me to his place on a scooter. His wife Sherry, from New York originally, welcomed me with open arms. Their guests included Iris who was a Sabra, born of Iraqi expellees, with her young daughter. In addition two of their daughters were present and participated in the “family” gathering, the oldest of which was married to a Russian who made aliya in 1990.
Kibbutz Ein Harod is situated in Jezreel Valley, which is the bread basket of Israel. (It is not to be confused with the Huala Valley which lies at the foot of the Golan Heights). It wasn’t always so productive. Originally it was all mosquito infested swampland. These are the lands the Halutzim reclaimed through backbreaking work and dedication. To accomplish this task they lived in collective communities which still exist today as separate Kibbutzim. Ein Harod, having been started in 1921, is the oldest.
The swamps had to be drained and kept drained. It was necessary to lay drainage pipes underground enabling the excess water to be continuously drained away. In my ignorance, I thought, that once drained that’s the end of it.
For supper we made our way to the dining room which functioned like a cafeteria and was large enough to accommodate 1500 persons. The building which housed it, looked out over a fertile valley which had as its backdrop, Gilboa Mountains. One particular mountain in this range is known as Mount Saul where King Saul, after losing a battle with the Phillistines.(not the Palestinians), committed suicide by falling on his sword. Thereupon David cursed the mountain and it remained barren for 3000 years.
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Ye mountains of Gilboa, let there be no dew, neither let there be rain, upon you, nor fields of offerings: for there the shield of the mighty is vilely cast away, the shield of Saul, as though he had not been anointed with oil.
Karen Kayemet has done a masterful job of reforesting the barren mountain. It was no easy task. Trees had to be planted, literally in rocks. The seedlings were placed in rock crevices or indentations in the rocks. Somehow these seedlings grew into trees about fifty feet tall. Naturally their roots had to anchor themselves in rocks as there was no soil. In time the trees produced a soil (pine needles and the like) from which new trees could grow naturally.
When we went back to the house we walked along the main drag which was notable for its very large trees which lined the road. They produced welcomed relief from the noonday sun and beautified the place.
We had breakfast Shabbat morning out on the porch. Mike proudly pointed out his fig trees, one for red figs and one for white. Unfortunately for me, the figs weren’t ready to be eaten. But the Muscat grapes were just about ready and I ate them off the vine. Date palms were all over the place.
I was told a century ago that there were no dates growing in Israel. Israel got date palm trees from Iraq in 1950 and started improving the strain so that these date trees produce on average 182 kilos – 10 times more than the average in the Middle East. Of historical note is the fact that seeds 2000 years old were found at Massada. Israeli scientists manage to germinate the seeds and we now have a date tree growing from one seed. When it is old enough to bear fruit, it will bear exactly the same fruit it produced in the first century. Wikipedia has some interesting things to say about this. Apparently
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“When the Romans invaded ancient Judea, thick forests of date palms towering up to 80 feet high and 7 miles wide covered the Jordan River valley from the Sea of Galilee in the north to the shores of the Dead Sea in the south. The tree so defined the local economy that Emperor Vespasian celebrated the conquest by minting the “Judea Capta,” a special bronze coin that showed the Jewish state as a weeping woman beneath a date palm. “
Sherry served me various cheeses that were made on the Kibbutz.and this lead to a discussion about their dairy herd. I always thought that cows just gave milk. Little did I know that the cows had to be impregnated first in order to give milk. The cows produce milk for about seven months after birthing and then had to be impregnated again for the next cycle. Of course they gave birth after a nine month gestation period producing male and female calves. The males end up in the abattoir when the time comes for a good steak.
In the afternoon we went for a swim in the Olympic sized pool. Was that great or what?
In passing Mike mentioned that many soldiers come to the kibbutz from nearby training camps to enjoy their day off and swim in the pool. They end up sleeping outdoors. Also of note was that many youths come from all all over the world to serve in the IDF for Zionistic reasons and they get “adopted” by families ïn the kibbutz so they have a “home” to come home to when off duty. Three years ago this was written up under the title Israeli families help ‘lonely soldiers’.
As for the Israelis in the IDF, you can’t help but notice them going home in large numbers before Shabbat and then returning to camp afterwards. They do this on a rotation basis because obviously every soldier can’t go home every week for chicken soup. Everyone between forty and sixty has a child in the army, one already out of the army and one getting ready to go in the army or something like that. Everyone has a friend or relative or many of them, in the army. This really is a peoples army.
Then Mike took me on his ATV (all terrain vehicle) to the top of Mount Saul where I encountered a monument to the Canadian gift that enabled the development of the Recreation Area of the Gilboa National Park. These funds were raised at the 2000 Negev Dinner in Toronto. One of the features of this park is a takeoff ramp for paragliders. They simply need run off the lip of the mountain to enjoy a beautiful flight over the valley 1500 feet below. Sometimes, if the winds are right, the updraft can keep them aloft for hours and even raise their elevation.
Tonight we are off to visit Tsafrir Ronen, who lives with his Canadian wife, Judy, and three lovely daughters in Moshav Moledet, five miles away. Most people on the kibbutz, if not all, don’t own a car. On the other hand the kibbutz has a fleet of about 60 cars which the kibbutz members can reserve. They simply go on the internet and advise when and for how long they need a car. Each person goes to the community centre when he or she is ready to use the car and uses a code to get access to the keys and one key is released to him or her. He or she then locates the car in the parking lot and then must use a code before the car will start up and must swipe a card so the kibbutz knows who to charge the car to and how many kilometers to charge for.
You probably are aware that Arab gangs from the Westbank steal cars on a full time basis and quickly drive them to the Westbank to be cut up for parts. Mike tells me that in the last year about 20 to 25 cars were stolen from his kibbutz alone. No matter how sophisticated security measures are for avoiding thefts, the Arabs have the answer. They disconnect the computer on the car which restricts the starting of the car and replaces it with their own computer. The police rarely get involved because they don’t go into the west bank to apprehend the thieves or to shut down the “chop shops”.
And that’s not all they steal. Evidently they sneak into the kibbutz and steal livestock sometimes slaughtering them on the premises for the meat. They also come into homes at night and administer drugs to keep the householders asleep as they rob them blind.
Of additional interest is how the children are integrated into the workforce. Beginning in the third grade, the children are first put to work in the zoo feeding the rabbits and other critters after school. From that time on their duties slowly increase but are not overwhelming.
Tsafrir has promised to take me back to Jerusalem on Sunday, thereby ending my great sojourn with Mike in Kibbutz Ein Harod. My thanks to Mike for a great Shabbat and for helping me with this essay. (Please go to all the links above and read more on the area and see loads of gorgeous pictures.)
Peskin I have nothing against Canada except they have adopted the worst of two superior cultures America and Britain and found that you are neither America or Britain in what could be considered their positive attributes.
Even if Oil went to 150 dollars a barrel with a collapsing world economy brought on primarily by expensive oil and corruption in the financial and equities markets few will need your oil which should bring the price down to about 10 dollars a barrel where it should have been in the first place.
Y
Israel got virtually nothing from America till Kennedy when so sold us some Hawk missiles ans some outmoded low tech for it’s time aircraft SKYHAWK A SUB SONIC FIGHTER.. We paid for those and no cash was given except by UJA, thank you very much. All during those years antisemitic America was arming our enemy neighbors and allowing the Russians to do the same with no appropriate response. Then came 67 war and sudden;y we were a regional power and America started to sell us(for cash and credit) Phantoms and Sherman tanks (WW2 vintage!) Overcharged us of course as well. It wasn’t till camp David agreements that carter offered the yearly stipend both to Israel and Egypt as without it Carter could never have pressured Both Israel and Egypt to sign on the dotted line> Essentially America bought the Camp David Accords. I won’t go into it now but we lost by a factor of 10 vis a vis American aid ea year. Thats what happens when you have dummies and incompetent leaders.. A major failings of democracies is that they don’t produce leaders based on individual merit.
Israel is tied into billions of dollars in military systems and Hardware and it could take 10-15 years of gradual withdrawal to replace sources with other hardware and systems, without severely crippling our military readiness and supply. It is no longer money it is the way things are and were designed by America to be.
Israel is more active and helpful in Africa than America , Canada and EU combined, do the research and if you come up blank I will set you on the right links.
Comment by celia — July 24, 2008 @ 12:15 pm
I have no quarrel with the Taliban most are ethnic Jews who I believe will return to the fold some day. Pakistan, yes I too have posted my beliefs that Pakistan with an estimated 59 ready nukes some believed to be in Saudi Arabia in payment to the saudis for their financing Paks Nuke project, is a major potential threat. Maybe even greater than Iran will be. BUT, Israel has no strategic depth we can only insure our continues existence by preemption If Iran openly threatens us unlike pakistan we will have little or few options. America or Nato could do the job with sustained conventional warfare we will have to nuke them to ensure success. In the end the West and america will or should bear the burden of the resulting consequences. By the way India and Pakistan are the results of Intel failure by all western and even Israeli Intel. If Iran were to get nukes every country in the region big and small will seek to get their own and will. America as a declining superpower will have less and less leverage to control the escalation, which will bring us as close to Armageddon as it can get. Little Israel is going to give the world an undeserving second chance to survive.
Peskin, you do have a sense of humour. Good!
I just noted your post #98. I did not realize you had issued me a challenge before. I must have missed your post.
I do not see myself as a tough interrogator. To further meaningful discussion however, I do find value in posing questions to whomever I am engaged in discussion or debate with. Responses help to ensure we are both talking about the same thing and talking with, as opposed to talking at each other.
You have posed an interesting question to me. Whether it be a Prime Minister of Israel or any other nation, there are many issues and concerns that have to be addressed which normally are addressed by policy and legislation.
I cannot give you a definitive reply, because I am not sufficiently familiar with the overall situation in Israel that runs the gamut from political, economic, social, military, religious and the like, just as our own PM Harper has innumerable departments and agencies of government to promulgate and oversee policy and procedures in giving effect to overriding government policies and laws.
That said, there are several policy areas that immediately come to mind that I think worth considering, though not necessarily in this order:
1. Beefing up Israel’s public relations department, which has been sorely lacking in funding, resources, direction, objectives, strategies and tactics;
2. Getting away from incorporating Palestinian narrative themes, claimed rights and positions into Israel’s own narrative of rights and positions and of course clearly stating Israel’s rights. This falls on both a public relations department and government.
3. Changing the Israeli political system that tends to lead more often then not to coalition governments, which coalitions are formed by the lead party compromising on positions and platforms it got elected on in order to gain the support of small splinter narrow issue political parties.
Change must also be had by making MK’s more accountable to their electorate then their own party. There are also change needed to cut down on the current status quo that allows for MK’s and parties to look out for their own interests first including holding onto their jobs or holding onto power if they are the government even when their approval ratings have become disapproval ratings.
4. The government presumably seized of highly classified intelligence that bears on Israel’s security must establish a clear line between what is absolutely essential as government prerogative to engage in executive orders as regards Israel’s security which are not open for judicial review.
5. Israel must take more bold initiatives to act in furtherance of her own interests rather then taking compromised action or no action at all to please America and the international community. This would obviously be very difficult to do given the leverage America and the international community has on Israel, but they must begin trying. It is a matter of picking the right spots to test the waters as it were. As indicated previously, I do not believe if Israel were to act on some issue or matter, contrary to American wishes for example, I doubt that if America was dead against such action that the sky would fall on Israel without her having a chance to retreat. Further by testing such waters, opportunites might well open up to get Americans to negotiate on a specific issue and Israel would be that much further ahead if they got something good out of the negotiations which they would not have had, had they not tried.
There are some other areas and issues that come to mind, but I have to cut it off here. Maybe I will have a chance to return to complete my answer.
Interesting question nonetheless Peskin. If you were the PM of Israel, what would you focus on?
celia,
Revenge is better when nuclear
By Obadiah Shoher
Many people misunderstand the commandment that children are not responsible for their parents’ guilt, and vice versa. If taken at the face value, the commandment conflicts with a major commandment to annihilate Amalek for misdeeds of its remote ancestors. It would also preclude such a commonsense measure as demolishing the family houses of suicide bombers.
Like most other commandments, the non-transference of guilt applies to Jews only. It is an intra-community commandment: any close-knit community would do well to practice it on the presumption of general goodwill. In a like-minded community, individuals’ transgressions are truly individual, aberrations.
The very opposite is true for nations. Every nation is like-minded to a degree, and so guilt of some is presumably shared by many, and fathers’ sin is part of the tradition imbued by their children. Polls show modern Germans just as anti-Semitic as their grandparents. German show of expiating the guilt is ultra-cynical: all the reparations paid to Israel and Jews amount to a tiny fraction of value of real estate and other property Germany confiscated after murdering its Jewish owners. So, on the total Holocaust proved economically beneficial to Germans and also a boon socially, as the hated Jews literally evaporated.
The Kahanist logo, the Star of David and fist, is based on a graffiti found in the Warsaw ghetto, left by an unknown dead Jew. The graffiti was signed differently from the Kach logo: “Jews, revenge!” Who are we to condemn the dead Jew as an immoral person, unwilling to forgive his murderers?
The Obana fascination has gone well beyond the stoppable stage. Call me defeatist if you wish but it is beginning to resemble the Kennedy love-in during the early 60’s. I am very much reminded of a song that most probably most of you are too young to remember.
You’re just too good to be true
Can’t take my eyes off of you
You’d be like heaven to touch
I wanna hold you so much
At long last love has arrived
And I thank God I’m alive
You’re just too good to be true
Can’t take my eyes off of you
Pardon the way that I stare
There’s nothing else to compare
The sight of you leaves me weak
There are no words left to speak
So if you feel like I feel
Please let me know that it’s real
You’re just too good to be true
Can’t take my eyes off of you
I love you baby and if it’s quite all right
I need you baby to warm the lonely nights
I love you baby, trust in me when I say
Oh pretty baby, don’t bring me down I pray
You’re just too good to be true
Can’t take my eyes off of you
You’d be like heaven to touch
I wanna hold you so much
At long last love has arrived
And I thank God I’m alive
You’re just too good to be true
Can’t take my eyes off of you
Celia: I think you are too much of a romantic. I don’t mind, but don’t you think that before you include silly song lyrics, you clear it with the head honcho, Yamit.
Iran is likely to launch ballistic missiles against Israel and the United States and the NATO alliance should prepare for it, was the warning issued earlier this week by Admiral James Winnefeld, commander of the Sixth Fleet in the Mediterranean. In recent years, the missile boats of the Sixth Fleet practiced intercepting Shahab-3 missiles from Iran aimed at Israel, along with the Arrow batteries of the air force and U.S. and Israeli batteries of Patriot missiles.
In an article entitled “Maritime Strategy in an Age of Blood and Belief” in the U.S. Naval Institute’s monthly Proceedings, Admiral Winnefeld describes the possibility of an offensive barrage of ballistic missiles fired from Iran against Israel as being “by far the most likely employment of ballistic missiles in the world today, and it demands our immediate attention in the event of a need for a U.S. or NATO response.” Advertisement
He says Iran is an “unpredictable adversary,” which could be provoked into action “by an isolated, and perhaps seemingly unimportant, event.”
Winnefeld’s commander, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the Pentagon, Admiral Michael Mullen, mentioned earlier this week during his visit in Israel the presence of missile defense vessels of the Sixth Fleet in the Mediterranean and their role in intercepting Iranian missiles.
One of Mullen’s hosts noted at the end of the visit that even though Israel Defense Forces Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi and the other senior officers did not discuss operational coordination, it was mentioned during discussions that both sides would like to avoid mistaken confrontations, of the sort that led to the IDF attack against the U.S. Navy ship, Liberty, in June 1967.
At a briefing to reporters in the Pentagon Wednesday, Mullen discussed his good relations with Ashkenazi and his impressions of the visits with the IDF on the northern border and near the Gaza Strip. “Israel remains a vital and trusted military ally in the Middle East,” he said, which faces “very real security threats” and “the tyranny of what I call ‘close-quarters geography,’” Mullen said.
The chairman of the Joint Chiefs added that “Iran is still working to develop nuclear weapons” and that the Israeli timetable in relation to Iran’s nuclear program is shorter than the U.S’s. However, the admiral stressed he is opposed to an Israeli or U.S. strike against Iran.
Such a strike could destabilize the region and open a third front for the U.S. armed forces, while it is preoccupied in Iraq and Afghanistan, he said.
The Iranian regime remains “a destabilizing factor in the area,” Mullen said, but in his view the prefered way of resolving the issue lies in international diplomacy and not the use of military force. (See Week’s End)
H A A R E T Z July 22, 2008
Celia; for you!! I know the song, used to even like it. Lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWtLK7XP-Bk&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g-2JqVCubM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_OnYjw3qvk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDsmS98zH0k&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V0W8Z21NEg&feature=related
Peskin : I approve, we romantics must stick together, right?
Celia,
Obama does fit the idolization being heaped on him by a no mind public. This is POP America in all its nakedness and vacuousness.
I wrote some months ago that he reminded me of Billy Sunday and Elmer Gantry. Americas affirmative action Coming home to haunt its initiators I believe, and Oh yes, we can add that brilliant Condi Rice in this description as well!
Chucky;
After this brilliant piece on enlightenment then he says:
I see and hear a lot of political double talk here! Because it is inconvenient for Americas military we should do nothing? He said two distinct things here: 1- that Israel has and is facing a real threat ( military Appraisal and 2- His political BOSSES don’t want Israel attacking Iran !!!! At least until Bush is out of the White house!
Celia, I have an instinctual or gut feeling that America is not yet ready for a Black President. I think that a lot of people are not telling the pollsters the truth and will not vote for a Black Man for President. I think many feel ashamed and are cowed into not expressing their real feelings on this for many reasons but in the end when they enter that voting both nobody will know who they voted for. They will all say they voted for Obama but he will come out second best. America is still a very racist country, it is just not PC to voice publicly ones true feelings.
Celia,
found this name not exact but close anyway good song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2vNEXqHo_o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCbOEZ8c8dM&NR=1
Yamit: thank you for including the Cecilia Simon and Garfunkle video, I had long forgotton that song and yes its close enough to mine. And yes we romantics must stick together butI keep thinking- When will the honeymoon be over, especially since the marriage has not even been consumated?
Celia: Everything has a time and place. When the time is right the marriage will be consummated, and maybe then the honeymoon will go on forever. Who can say?
Peskin # 91 addendum,
US civilian aid to Israel is being phased out. Military aid to Israel hovers at around two billion a year. Since 1970s, inflation and rising weapons costs have eroded that amount to insignificance. Three-quarters of the two billion are spent in the US. The US compound tax rate is 32%, presumably much higher in the defense industry where engineering costs (including taxable salaries) constitute a larger portion of the overall cost. Military aid after taxes therefore is about $1.4 bn annually.
In return for its military grants, America bans Israel from many profitable markets and deals and boosts its own arms exports. Minor aid buys America control over the strongest state in the Middle East and establishes America as regional arbiter.
America follows Jesus’ advice in the parable of the trader who, upon seeing a great pearl, sold everything and bought the pearl. America’s bribes to Israel for compliance are only euphemistically called “aid.” That Israel is the largest recipient of US aid is irrelevant. America pays for a particular benefit—control—not for improving the lives of Israelis. The Palestinians get more aid than Israel both per capita (from all sources) and relative to their GDP.
The free supply of American weapons causes systemic distortions in the Israeli army. The IDF won all its wars lean, but after 1973 it Fattened on high-end weapons. We don’t need them. Israel’s nuclear option deters regular Muslim armies, and fighting guerrillas with ultra-modern weapons is absurd.
Yamit:It seems you are not aware of how the process works. Each year for the last 25 odd years, Israel makes application for its annual grant from the U.S. The actual amounts are subject to negotiations. There is absolutely nothing that would prevent Israel from suspending its request. There is nothing mandatory about this request. Given the level of prosperity, given the powerful military strength enjoyed by Israel, perhaps, just perhaps now is the time for Israel to cease being the world’s premier panhandler.
Is that too much to ask”
I just spelled out to you that today it is more the Americans who need to give the aid and I also explained why. Now theoretically Israel could refuse but they would still be as tied to the American military and political life line that they occasionally throw us. That said if you get no advantage for refusing and all stays the same except that now we have to pay out of pocket for what we already get with the gifts(sic) why refuse? You cannot transfer and or replace billions in weapoms and weapons systems in use and on order well into the future without crippling the IDF. That said our low life politicians enjoy the perks this aid provides.
I would declare our Nuke deterrent; invest heavily in thousands of ICBMs capable of pinpoint targeting to any point on the globe and cruise missiles, Ground to ground air to ground and sea to land Navy adapted versions. Expand the navy by a factor of 10-20, including nuke subs. We can do it, but it takes time and is expensive so by buying Russian selling to India , Turkey, and China we bypass America and pay for expense by offseting production costs. We would need maybe ten years of intensive reequipping IDF. I would also say here that if America then continues to give aid to Egypt I would not refuse the aid but use it for different weapons as I just suggested.
Much of the branding of Iran as pure evil is based on the outlandish and malicious statements of Iran”s elected president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, including his expressed desire for the
elimination of Israel and doubts about whether the Holocaust really occured. Though advocates of war with Iran have depicted Ahmedinejad as some sort of supreme leader of Iran, he is in fact, nothing of the sort.
The power of the president is quite secondary. Ironically many of those who seek the inflate the president into some sort of dictator continuously belittled the power of the Iranian presidency when it was occupied by a moderate, Mohammad Khatami .. When Khatami spoke about improving relations with the west and Israel, his pronouncements were rejected on the grounds that he exercised no power. You just can’t have it both ways.
Understand this, many Moslem nations and most particularly Arab ones have cleansed themselves of any Jewish presence. Not so Iran. many Iranian Jews have Israeli relatives. They are free to travel between the two countries. Iran has several synogogues and Jewish hospitals which have existed for many years.
It is quite true that Iran does not recognize the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish nation.But the same can be said for the the UAE. This has not prevented America from having excellent relations with the UAE. One can get a sense of just how extreme the UAE’s anti-Israeli position , by reviewing its official web site for tourists. NO ISRAELI CITIZEN OR ANYONE WITH AN ISRAELI PASSPORT WILL BE ALLOWED ENTRY. Iran has none of these stipulations.The same situation prevails with Malasia and other Arab/Muslim nations. Their argument is simple, once Israel settles with the Palestinians full recognition would be forthcoming.
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I love this naive cliche going around that the Supreme Leader is somehow a fluffy moderate and that Ahmedinejad is just doing a dinner theater routine.
Celia: Apparently no one has told you yet, but the Iranians have already admitted that the Khatami years were just a false-front put up to deceive the West into thinking reconcilation was possible. While playing stupid Westerners for the fools they are, Iran worked to secure for itself as many of the supplies it would require for its nuclear project.
Celia: a hypothetical, You are now the Prime Minister of Israel, we have been aware of Irans drive to obtain nuclear weapons for over 12 years. We have pleaded with the International community to deal with this problem as a red line for Israel where we cannot allow Iran to obtain nukes. The International community in a combination of economic interests, energy interests and just plain anti Israel(antisemitism) resulted in nada results from minimalist actions. We are now months away from what we believe is a point of no return in their development. They have threated the nation and the people of Israel with many different code words meaning out and out threat to use those nukes once they are ready. When they are ready could mean theoretically the day they come on line next week next year or even never. The threat in any event is held over our heads in all that portends. Even if they do not attack us just the open and blatant threat is enough to disjoint the whole fabric of our society and threaten our viable existence. They will start a nuke arms race in the whole region which cannot be stopped. Ea new country with nukes threatens Israel and we cannot live with one major threat no less multiple ones.
As a nation that still has survivors of Hitler still living among us and in the above contexts what would you do as PM?
peskin, Israel would have never given up Sinai without long term security package being that part of the agreement where we and Egypt received set amount received in weapons, that up until recently allowed Israel to maintain a certain deterrence against those of our neighboring enemies. One could make a case that that aid and deterrence has prevented a repeat of the war in 73.
we in return for that agreement have lost: at least a billion or two in tourism revenue, each year with really unlimited potential.
We have lost forward air and army bases which would cut time and distance in attackin and prevention of all of our neighbors.
mineral wealth : Sinai is rich is most commercial mineral including copper , zink, lead,magnesium, and even uranium. The expanses of Sinai could house hundreds of new desert garden communities for a growing population.
We found a deep underground lake under the Sinai for hundreds of years worth of fresh water.
The Sinai allowed our air force and Army extensive training space missing from tiny Israel.
It offered strategic depth so important today in defense calculations.
Then of course there is oil and gas. Enough for Israels needs for the next 150 years without further development. I worked on an oil rig for about a year and I know pretty much what we had and what was the potential.
We essentially gave up our economic and political independence for a Flag on a building in Cairo and a few diplomatic jobs. brilliant trade off I would say! Name me one other country in the world so stupid that they would trade all the advantages I just mentioned and more for a piece of paper and a symbolic plag on a building? Who said Jews were smart? must be antisemitic spin! We are just as dumb if not dumber than all the Gentiles. From your ignorant rantings I must include you in that group as well.
Yamit: Let us be perfectly honest and above board. Your extreme antipathy towards the Camp David Israel-Egypt peace treaty stems from the fact that you were one of the settlers that had to leave Sinai due to this deal. You totally ignore the fact that peace with Egypt removed the largest Arab belligerant from Israel’s list of enemies. With Egypt out of the equation, Syria was no longer a threat. Israel’s real fear was being attacked on two fronts. Now the natural by-product was Jordan coming on board the peace train. Ask yourself the question,how many Israeli lives have been saved as a direct result of this peace arrangement,as imperfect as it is? ask yourself, how many billions of shekels would have been expended fighting needless wars,if this deal had not been made? and how long are you going to wallow in self- pity obsessing on your loss that occured so many years ago?
Celia : I heard the song- Your just too good to be true- a couple times on fm radio this week. This song has not played much in many years. So you just might have started something.Are you getting royalties?
Vince1974: in your post 121 you claim that Iran repudiated Khatami’s attempts at a moderate policy towards the west, would you please provide some reference, link, or anything to substanciate.
Peskin: You are right and wrong I was one of the sacrafices in the Sinai deal but do not think for a moment that I am that shallow or egotistical that I would allow my personal pain to color my opinion If really thought that what we were getting was real peace. I as a Jew respects the Jewish concept of Community welfare and rights over any individuals including my own.
Fact, by the time of The Camp David Accords, the so called War of Attrition had wound down and was on low controllable back burner. We were still on or near the Canal and really dug in. The Saudis had cut The Egyptians off or not paid their promised stipend of a billion dollars and Sadat a year and a half had Kicked the Russians out due to pressure from Muslim Brotherhood. Egypt was close to bankrupt , no income from the Canal, Saudis not coming through and no Superpower Patron, meaning no new weapons and spare parts their equipment was beginning to rust in place. There were mass riots when he raise the price of flour and bread.
No Arab leader can not rule without the support of the Arab street. Internal pressures were making Egypt’s position very precarious.
ans. None Egypt was at that time in no position to wage war of any kind. Israel saved their asses and got nothing in return. This is the point, we had already invested in the Sinai infrastructure, roads water sewage, electricity and telecommunication as well as settlements. and billions in military bases that could not be replaced. We were sitting on the Canal, and still had superior military supremacy,
Camp David awarded victory to a loosing aggressor side for a fourth time in 25 years. They paid no price for aggression but were rewarded with 2 billion dollars in modern American Hardware for their trouble, they have not abided with the terms and spirit of the agreements meaning the most important normalization part. They use their good offices to undermine Israel in every conceivable forum and as far as the Egyptian people are concerned we are as hated as ever if not more so. The Egyptian produced protocols of the elders of zion has been a continuous top rated tv series, Mein Kamf is a perennial best seller and most of any trade between the two countries is one way as is tourism. Mubarak has never come to Israel except for Rabin’s funeral it is always our politicians going to them. W
Worst scenario Egypt has reached a parity with Israel in the Military fields. They have the same weapons plus others we can’t get from the Americans and all their training is directed towards their enemy Israel. I personally believe that Egypt is our most dangerous existential enemy and know that at sometime in the future we will go another round with them. I would even go so far as to say it is inevitable.
I never wallow or wallowed in self pity, it’s not me. Anger yes, sorrow for stupidity of Jews! Yes.
Polls were made not so long ago and no more than 15 % of Israelis would agree with camp David Accords from vantage of hindsight. The country came around to my position but too little too late. Aint that a bitch?
Jordan we already had a defacto peace with out the treaty and now we pay them for the treaty with half a million gallons of water a month even in drought years like this year when we are cutting water to our farmers and municipalities. Israeli light industries located in Jordan for the slave labor and put our own Arabs and Druse on unemployment.. Israel has gained nothing of value in any agreement with any Arab government.
It appears peskin that you have totally bought into bullshit spin and official propaganda. like everything else your knowledge is superficial and colored by your ideological world view.
We never even got a peace dividend from the world community beyond good press for a week or so.
Yep. The Next “We Told You So”.
Feiglin and me seem to be on the same page! I doubt that it will have any influence on the Peskins of the world. Thewy see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear.
Yamit: I don’t think I ought to accept your unsupported word that the Camp David agreement was not particularly beneficial to Israel’s military position. If you could provide one source, an important general, a military or intelligence figure with some authority that
backs your contention, then you have some credibility, otherwise what you write is not worth a vat of spit.
I am in full agreement with you that Israel should continue to receive American weapon systems. Where we part company is I say, given the present state of Israel’s economy, let them pay full market prices like any other purchasing nation. Otherwise the term shlepper state will continue to apply. Whatever happened to dignity and pride?.
Yuval Steinitz
Avi Dichter
2003: Egypt’s Defense Expenditures: $2.7 Billion or $14 Billion?, by Shawn Pine
Also, suggested reading: FROM COLD PEACE TO COLD WAR? THE SIGNIFICANCE OF EGYPT’S MILITARY BUILDUP
Peskin: Shy Guy beat me to the reply, and it is enough for our purposes but if you are still not convinced I can supply reams of additional support references but in the mean time chew on this:
On March 26, 1979, Israel and Egypt signed a peace treaty. The United States also signed a document that same day called the Memorandum of Agreement between the Governments of the United States of America and the State of Israel. In it, the U.S. spelled out its commitments to Israel in case the treaty is violated, the role of the UN and the future supply of military and economic aid to Israel
In essence, this agreement guarantees that the U.S. will take appropriate measures to ensure the full enforcement of the Egypt-Israeli Peace Treaty. It also guarantees that the U.S. will take appropriate measures (to include military options) if Egypt violates the treaty. And, critical to current events, the U.S. guarantees that it would not supply or authorize transfer of such weapons for use in an armed attack against Israel, and will take steps to prevent unauthorized transfers. Keep this thought in mind…
Meanwhile, the actual Peace Treaty Between Israel and Egypt states that the parties involved will respect each others rights to live within secure and recognized borders, will …”refrain from organizing, instigating, inciting, assisting or participating in acts or threats of belligerency, hostility, subversion or violence against the other Party, anywhere, and undertakes to ensure that perpetrators of such acts are brought to justice.” This peace treaty further states “The Parties shall seek to foster mutual understanding and tolerance and will, accordingly, abstain from hostile propaganda against each other.”
In the past few years, both Egypt and the U.S. have reneged on their obligations — Egypt has had numerous flagrant violations of the peace treaty and the United States has failed to do anything about it — as guaranteed by the U.S.-Israel Memorandum of Agreement.
http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Process/Guide%20to%20the%20Peace%20Process/Israel-Egypt%20Peace%20Treaty
Peskin:
The notion of peace treaty is absurd. Peace is not a product of words on paper, but of boots on the ground. European states signed peace treaties which proved merely ceasefires lasting several decades. Critically, European peace partners were historically of comparable size; all of them had sufficient depth of defense to react to the other side’s breach of ceasefire cum peace.
Israel peace with Egypt proved disastrous. The level of Egypt’s support for Hamas far exceeds its support for fellaheen guerrillas in 1950s, the activity which prompted Israel to launch the war of 1956. Behind the American guarantees and with American aid, Egypt amassed very capable army whose only enemy is Israel. Should Egypt start a more or less covert nuclear program, Israel would find it hard politically to attack the Egyptian nuclear facilities and be condemned worldwide for breaching the celebrated worthless peace.
To sign a peace treaty with Syria is simple: launch preemptive strike, suffer some Syrian missile hits, get Israeli tanks into Damascus, bomb Syrian towns daily – until the enemy surrenders. Then impose on Syrians demilitarization, and live happily striking them again upon any attempt to build an army. That’s the only true peace, through unconditional surrender.
The current peace talks with Syria are not dangerous: even if supported by everyone from the US to Iran, they would drag on for years, and in the current atmosphere of universal dislike for Assad, no progress in peace negotiations is likely.
Olmert re-launched negotiations immediately after receiving Bush’s commitment for harsh measures against Iran.( which he , Bush has since discarded and reneged on promises to Olmert) The Israeli government tries to discourage Syria from retaliating on Iran’s behalf after the Israeli attack on Iranian nuclear facilities. Israel would likely use Tomahawk-type missiles, and without American help Using tactical nuclear weapons remains a wonderful possibility. Iran won’t seriously retaliate due to the characteristic mix of caution and cowardice multiplied by the absence of capable weaponry. A few missiles might slam through Israeli air defenses, a few terrorist acts will be carried abroad, but that’s it.
Oeskin:
Again you are right and wrong here. Israel receives aid from America because firstly it is a treaty obligation of America to provide this aid. 2ndly Israel gave up in $ terms many times over for Gas and oil that we pay for since Camp David and we incurred a net loss on the exchange between what America has provided Israel and what we had already in hand gas and oil. While working on an oil rig in the middle of the Red Sea I asked a Canadian contract engineer how much oil was in the Sinai and off Shore? his reply was potentially as much as Iran… Hmmmmm? Even half as much I could live with!! oil and gas could have made Israel economically independent decades ago. Economic independence, is a prerequisite for being politically independent. for real peace biblical utopia peace I would consider in retrospect vacating Sinai but for Less? I may be a right wing extremist as Narvey would consider me but I aint dumb and can add to 4. In this case I am the
rational realist and Begin and company were the fantasizers, dreamers, believers in everything a realist
and rationalist would reject out of hand.I gave an interview in the NYT and predicted the next conflict with Egypt would be in ten years, I was only wrong about the timing not the inevitability.
Otherwise the term shlepper state will continue to apply. Whatever happened to dignity and pride?.
Up until Camp David Accord Israel did pay and is still paying for Phantoms and Skyhawks were purchased before camp David. While America cancelled old debts to Egypt and Jordan , Israel still is paying for those purchases and this comes out or reduced from our yearly grant from America. I would like as much or more than anyone for us to divest from America completely including sundries like Coke and Boeing jetliners Lockhead etc. There is nothing America has to offer that we cannot find substitutes either better cheaper or both. As I said just the mil part creates 100,000 jobs in America from Israel purchases using American and non American grants. We lose 3000-50000 domestic jobs at least in accepting the aid. Israel wanted strong attachments to America and receiving aid locks both parties into some closer form of relationship.
US forced to import bullets from Israel as troops use 250,000 for every rebel killed
By Andrew Buncombe in Washington
Sunday, 25 September 2005
Independent.co.uk Web
US forces have fired so many bullets in Iraq and Afghanistan – an estimated 250,000 for every insurgent killed – that American ammunition-makers cannot keep up with demand. As a result the US is having to import supplies from Israel.
A government report says that US forces are now using 1.8 billion rounds of small-arms ammunition a year.
Not “shlepper”. The Yiddish word you’re looking for is “shnorer”.
Shy guy: Shnorrer, shlepper – what is the difference. You get my drift and that is what counts. …You say tomahto and I say tomato,let’s call the whole thing off…..
Peskin you are showing your age here!!
Yamit: What is significant is that the peace treaty stipulates the termination of war between the two parties. And that largely has been adhered to by both sides.
No one and I repeat NO One, aside from you and possibly Shy Guy,and the odd disgruntled Right Winger would like the treaty revoked You are not going to turn back the clock to the 80′s.So just get over it and dwell on the present and future. There are enough problems for Israel to contend with now rather than dealing with the future hypothetical.
I know I am repeating myself but this bears repeating.
The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it
Yamit: If the song is familiar to you, may we conclude that you are no spring chick yourself.
Iran, China to Cement Cooperation
> > http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=8705071102
TEHRAN (FNA)- The attachments of the contract between Iran’s Pars Oil and Gas Company and China’s CNOOC (China National Offshore Oil Corp.) to exploit the North Pars gas field were finalized, Pars Oil and Gas Company’s managing director said.
“Along with our negotiations with SINOC Group, we are also negotiating with some other domestic and foreign groups about the North Pars gas field project,” Ali Vakili explained according to MNA.Iranian and Chinese companies hope to start to sell the gas from the North Pars gas field in Asian and European markets soon.actually, China’s rapid economic growth is proceeding in tandem with its growing energy needs, which are placing enormous pressure on world energy prices and fuelling a fierce global competition for energy resources.
China imports half of its oil from the Middle East and is interested in promoting political stability in the region. At the end of 2004, China became Iran’s top oil export market. Iran exportsabout 300,000 barrels of oil to China, which makes it Beijing’s
third-largest oil supplier, behind only Angola and Saudi Arabia, a press tv commentary said. China’s oil giant Sinopec Group has signed a big gas deal worth 100 billion dollars with Iran. Known as the “deal of century” by energy xperts, Sinopecis going to buy 250 million tons of natural gas in 30 years from Iran, and will help Iran to develop its giant Yadavaran oilfield in exchange for Tehran’s commitment of exporting 150,000 oil barrels per day to China for 25 years at market prices. China’s economic initiatives in Iran go far beyond the energy field and include a wide spectrum of areas, ranging from infrastructure construction to trade and tourism. Beijing is helping Tehran to build dams, shipyards and many other projects. More than 100 Chinese state companies are operating in Iran to develop ports and airports in the major Iranian cities,
mine-development projects and oil and gas infrastructures.
Moreover, Beijing wants to increase the presence of its companies in the Iranian market, which may be a good outlet for Chinese products. Trade between the two nations is expected to hit a new record of 11 billion dollars in 2008, compared with 9.5 billion in 2007.
Moreover, Beijing wants to reinforce its relationship with Tehran in order to deepen its presence in Central Asia with the goal of reaching the important energy resources of the Caspian Sea region.
This would help China lessen its dependence on maritime oil imports from the Arab countries of the Persian Gulf, thus better securing an uninterrupted flow of oil.
Therefore, Chinese and other Asian companies are increasing their investment in Iran, a country that is a natural bridge between the Middle East and Central and South Asia. As some European countries have decreased their
economic trade with Tehran in response to US pressure, China and other nations have incresed their trade with Iran.
Celia: Your prior post illustrates fully why sanctions and boycotts will do little to slow Iran’s race to achieve a nuclear bomb. Despite all talk of keeping the military option on the table, U.S. cannot stage an attack so long as there are exposed troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. Israel cannot stage an attack without American assent and cooperation which under the current situation is not possible. Germany, France, Great Britain, who ostensibly are partners with America in the desire to control Iran, have multi billion dollar contracts to develop Iran’s gas and oil infrastructure. They will talk tough but do little. Sooner or later Iran will join the nuclear club.
a herzberg;
Would you care to make a wager on this? I say we will and can even with out American assent and cooperation!!!
Peskin:
I could be just a music lover of 50′s and 60′s music and pop culture.
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