My visit to Kibbutz Ein Harod
By Ted Belman
Mike Packard, a longtime friend of Israpundit, invited me to spend Shabbat with him and his family in Kibbutz Ein Harod. I gratefully accepted. So on Friday I hopped on a bus in Jerusalem headed for Beit Shean.
The bus travelled down to Jericho, a trip I had taken in 1968 when I was first in Israel. The drop in elevation went from 2100 feet above sea level to 1200 feet below. What surprised me was that the Bedouin camps I remembered from the first trip were still there with their decrepit black tents and lifestyle. One cannot help but notice as one drives through the Judean Hills east of Jerusalem, the complete barrenness of the landscape which consists entirely of white-beige sandstone.
At Jericho, which is close to the north end of the Dead Sea, we turned left and traveled North parallel to the Jordan River. On the east side could be seen the very prominent Jordanian hills which dominate the valley. These hills are known as the Moabite Mountains from biblical times. It is where Moses died after G-d refused him entry into the promised land for doubting him. Joshua went on to cross the Jordan and conquer Jericho.
Progressively, as we moved north, farming communities appeared amidst the otherwise inhospitable surroundings. This farming is made possible because it is all done under plastic tents which serve to protect the plants from excessive sunshine and to capture evaporated water and return it to the soil. Before the soil was useable it had to be washed for weeks to cleanse it of excess salt.
Finally, we arrived at Beit Shean which is a community of some 16,000 residents mainly of Sephardic origin. It is a “frontier town” thereby entitling residents and businesses to various tax breaks. It sits about five miles north of the northern greenline.
From there we drove west for 10 miles to Kibbutz Ein Harod, my destination.
Mike was there to meet me and take me to his place on a scooter. His wife Sherry, from New York originally, welcomed me with open arms. Their guests included Iris who was a Sabra, born of Iraqi expellees, with her young daughter. In addition two of their daughters were present and participated in the “family” gathering, the oldest of which was married to a Russian who made aliya in 1990.
Kibbutz Ein Harod is situated in Jezreel Valley, which is the bread basket of Israel. (It is not to be confused with the Huala Valley which lies at the foot of the Golan Heights). It wasn’t always so productive. Originally it was all mosquito infested swampland. These are the lands the Halutzim reclaimed through backbreaking work and dedication. To accomplish this task they lived in collective communities which still exist today as separate Kibbutzim. Ein Harod, having been started in 1921, is the oldest.
The swamps had to be drained and kept drained. It was necessary to lay drainage pipes underground enabling the excess water to be continuously drained away. In my ignorance, I thought, that once drained that’s the end of it.
For supper we made our way to the dining room which functioned like a cafeteria and was large enough to accommodate 1500 persons. The building which housed it, looked out over a fertile valley which had as its backdrop, Gilboa Mountains. One particular mountain in this range is known as Mount Saul where King Saul, after losing a battle with the Phillistines.(not the Palestinians), committed suicide by falling on his sword. Thereupon David cursed the mountain and it remained barren for 3000 years.
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Ye mountains of Gilboa, let there be no dew, neither let there be rain, upon you, nor fields of offerings: for there the shield of the mighty is vilely cast away, the shield of Saul, as though he had not been anointed with oil.
Karen Kayemet has done a masterful job of reforesting the barren mountain. It was no easy task. Trees had to be planted, literally in rocks. The seedlings were placed in rock crevices or indentations in the rocks. Somehow these seedlings grew into trees about fifty feet tall. Naturally their roots had to anchor themselves in rocks as there was no soil. In time the trees produced a soil (pine needles and the like) from which new trees could grow naturally.
When we went back to the house we walked along the main drag which was notable for its very large trees which lined the road. They produced welcomed relief from the noonday sun and beautified the place.
We had breakfast Shabbat morning out on the porch. Mike proudly pointed out his fig trees, one for red figs and one for white. Unfortunately for me, the figs weren’t ready to be eaten. But the Muscat grapes were just about ready and I ate them off the vine. Date palms were all over the place.
I was told a century ago that there were no dates growing in Israel. Israel got date palm trees from Iraq in 1950 and started improving the strain so that these date trees produce on average 182 kilos – 10 times more than the average in the Middle East. Of historical note is the fact that seeds 2000 years old were found at Massada. Israeli scientists manage to germinate the seeds and we now have a date tree growing from one seed. When it is old enough to bear fruit, it will bear exactly the same fruit it produced in the first century. Wikipedia has some interesting things to say about this. Apparently
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“When the Romans invaded ancient Judea, thick forests of date palms towering up to 80 feet high and 7 miles wide covered the Jordan River valley from the Sea of Galilee in the north to the shores of the Dead Sea in the south. The tree so defined the local economy that Emperor Vespasian celebrated the conquest by minting the “Judea Capta,” a special bronze coin that showed the Jewish state as a weeping woman beneath a date palm. “
Sherry served me various cheeses that were made on the Kibbutz.and this lead to a discussion about their dairy herd. I always thought that cows just gave milk. Little did I know that the cows had to be impregnated first in order to give milk. The cows produce milk for about seven months after birthing and then had to be impregnated again for the next cycle. Of course they gave birth after a nine month gestation period producing male and female calves. The males end up in the abattoir when the time comes for a good steak.
In the afternoon we went for a swim in the Olympic sized pool. Was that great or what?
In passing Mike mentioned that many soldiers come to the kibbutz from nearby training camps to enjoy their day off and swim in the pool. They end up sleeping outdoors. Also of note was that many youths come from all all over the world to serve in the IDF for Zionistic reasons and they get “adopted” by families ïn the kibbutz so they have a “home” to come home to when off duty. Three years ago this was written up under the title Israeli families help ‘lonely soldiers’.
As for the Israelis in the IDF, you can’t help but notice them going home in large numbers before Shabbat and then returning to camp afterwards. They do this on a rotation basis because obviously every soldier can’t go home every week for chicken soup. Everyone between forty and sixty has a child in the army, one already out of the army and one getting ready to go in the army or something like that. Everyone has a friend or relative or many of them, in the army. This really is a peoples army.
Then Mike took me on his ATV (all terrain vehicle) to the top of Mount Saul where I encountered a monument to the Canadian gift that enabled the development of the Recreation Area of the Gilboa National Park. These funds were raised at the 2000 Negev Dinner in Toronto. One of the features of this park is a takeoff ramp for paragliders. They simply need run off the lip of the mountain to enjoy a beautiful flight over the valley 1500 feet below. Sometimes, if the winds are right, the updraft can keep them aloft for hours and even raise their elevation.
Tonight we are off to visit Tsafrir Ronen, who lives with his Canadian wife, Judy, and three lovely daughters in Moshav Moledet, five miles away. Most people on the kibbutz, if not all, don’t own a car. On the other hand the kibbutz has a fleet of about 60 cars which the kibbutz members can reserve. They simply go on the internet and advise when and for how long they need a car. Each person goes to the community centre when he or she is ready to use the car and uses a code to get access to the keys and one key is released to him or her. He or she then locates the car in the parking lot and then must use a code before the car will start up and must swipe a card so the kibbutz knows who to charge the car to and how many kilometers to charge for.
You probably are aware that Arab gangs from the Westbank steal cars on a full time basis and quickly drive them to the Westbank to be cut up for parts. Mike tells me that in the last year about 20 to 25 cars were stolen from his kibbutz alone. No matter how sophisticated security measures are for avoiding thefts, the Arabs have the answer. They disconnect the computer on the car which restricts the starting of the car and replaces it with their own computer. The police rarely get involved because they don’t go into the west bank to apprehend the thieves or to shut down the “chop shops”.
And that’s not all they steal. Evidently they sneak into the kibbutz and steal livestock sometimes slaughtering them on the premises for the meat. They also come into homes at night and administer drugs to keep the householders asleep as they rob them blind.
Of additional interest is how the children are integrated into the workforce. Beginning in the third grade, the children are first put to work in the zoo feeding the rabbits and other critters after school. From that time on their duties slowly increase but are not overwhelming.
Tsafrir has promised to take me back to Jerusalem on Sunday, thereby ending my great sojourn with Mike in Kibbutz Ein Harod. My thanks to Mike for a great Shabbat and for helping me with this essay. (Please go to all the links above and read more on the area and see loads of gorgeous pictures.)
Peskin – You are all wet re Obama, Malaki & Iraq in your post #48.
You state:
I may have stated this as one reason, but if I did, it was just one of many and more significant reasons as to why I as a Jew, a Canadian and a Westerner am very concerned at the prospect that Obama could be elected President.
Your saying that I have been undercut in my view, just makes no sense at all, quite apart from the fact that my views hold no sway on America or Iraq. I am simply an observer and have a particular point of view as regards what is necessary to combat Islamists.
Lets dig deeper however.
Consider the following:
The Bush policy has been to make Iraq to make Iraq whole and strong again and to nurture Iraqis and the new Malaki government to ultimately be a nation sympathetic to Western values and ideals and to be able to stand on its own in the Middle East and to stand firm and strong against Islamist forces both within Iraq and from without, most notably Iran.
Bush has always maintained that America will remain in Iraq for so long as the Iraqi government wills it and will leave when the Iraqi government asks it to. No doubt, Bush has prevailed upon the Malaki government to not ask for America’s departure according to any specific time table.
Though in the last year since the surge, the Malaki government has, together with its military been able to shoulder a greater load of responsibility to battle and control Islamists, but they are not nearly ready to go it alone without American support.
It is only common sense to not tell your enemy when you plan to depart the field of battle regardless, for your enemy will just bide their time and wait for your departure before descending like a wolf on the fold once you are gone.
Malaki is under great pressure to cut some kind of deal with Iran supported and Iran sympathetic factions, including Islamist factions within Iraq in order to achieve a modicum of stability within Iraq and to shore up his own government’s power.
Malaki knows that the Americans some day will leave and he will be left to deal with Iran. Malaki thus has been making various overtures directly and probably many more secretly, to find some kind of accommodation with Iran so that Iran will not rape and take control of Iraq once the Americans leave, such as Syria did with Lebanon and which Syria still plays some role in Lebanese affairs as does Iran of course through its agent Hezbollah.
Until recently, Malaki has supported the Bush administration in its position that it will be leaving Iraq, but there should not be any set timetable for troop withdrawl.
It was however last month that Malaki did a sudden about face and called for America to withdraw.
Peskin, the timing of Malaki’s about face, in the midst of the American Presidential election and with Obama having secured the Democratic spot, makes me very suspicious as to his motives and what has gone on behind the scenes.
We know that not only Hamas, but Iran and other Islamists have voiced a preference for an Obama presidency. We know that Malaki is under pressure from Iran and Iranian factions in Iraq and has sought to appease and accommodate them.
Malaki has to know that such an announcement on his part would likely have some impact and influence in the American Presidential election and that such announcement would undercut McCain and benefit Obama.
It is I think a pretty fair conclusion that Malaki’s announcement was at least in part due to his seeming need to accomodate Iran and the pro-Iranian factions in Iraq in order to bring greater stability to his own country, shore up his government and make some alliance with Iran that would have Iran in return turn their gun sights away from Iraq.
I have not yet seen such analysis, but that is mine.
What are your thoughts in this regard Peskin?
Peskin, Your point in #49 is complete bull.
You state:
That statement again illustrates just how self delusional and close minded you are to your own lack of insight and objectivity, which you rail against others at Israpundit for.
The point made by Sol Horowitz about Israel’s need to cease to be dependent on America in response to Dr. Aaron Lerner’s wish for Israel to obliterate Hamas, is a point made and recognized time and again by many on Israpundit.
Why do you continue to make arguments and hurl accusations that are completely untrue?
That Peskin is no honest way to debate an issue.
It is not just that I expect better of you. You should expect better of yourself and act accordingly.
Peskin and Narvey I am glad you found ea other! A match made in Heaven and in Peskins case maybe Hell is the correct word? Lol.
Peskin lets for a moment crate a hypothetical and the Financial Bonds are broken between Israel and America whereby America would loose much of the power to Blackmail and control Israel. We don’t owe America and America does not owe us.. Free at last free at last!!!! Well We will be able to openly sell to the Chinese about 15 billion in Hi Tech weaponry , also Venezuela, and Cuba, another 5-10 billion. India and Turkey sky’s the limit!! Purchase from Russia or co produce very good raft and missile systems. We can improve their aircraft and technology just as we did for American Companies. Eastern Europe with Russia as a partner or semi partner we could increase our sales to E. Europe by a factor of at least 2-3X. The Russians would love to see us out from under the influence of the Americans as America uses her control over Israel to keep many of the Arab and gulf states tied to America. losing 3 billion a year with devalued American dollars isn’t much . maybe 2 % of our GDP. I could live with that loss and make up for it in other areas plus all the added value which we don’t get from America. America Charges us overpriced weaponry to deflect Americas development and production costs which are far from being optimally efficient. We buy Air Bus instead of Boeing after all we bought more expensive Boeing under pressure from America as they were crying that we owed them to buy American. so far this breaking of economic bonds Military aid)have cost 100 thousand American jobs and will have created tens of thousands on new jobs here. The Europeans will go nuts, A Wet Dream Come True. An opening for them to extend their influence at Americas expense.
It could be that without Americas control of Israel, Israel long ago would have pacified the so called territories and we would be back in a semi status quo ante. No Pa, and Israeli law extended to all of the territories, Maybe? Maybe we would have attacked Iran long before now, THERE ARE MANY POTENTIAL EXTENSIONS TO THIS TRAIN OF THOUGHT!! We would charge America for things we give them for free like Intelligence, further improvements to their existing technology etc.
By the way our Home based company Teva is about to purchase American Co, Barr for 7.5 billion dollars so it isn’t just the Saudis and the Japanese we too are buying into Corporate America. Microsoft Just purchased and Israeli Company and recently opened a whole new complex here second only to S. Valley. Giving israeli a pultry 3 billion in yearly military aid politically allows America to sell to the Saudis and Gulf state many times that amount and at a substantial profit , for American Companies these sales are important, for the American workers critical. America gets a big bang for her buck , which isn’t worth much today anyway. Take the 50 square miles of military complexes and warehousing built here for prepositioning of weapons and munitions warehoused on our valuable land and we have given it to them for free. We should charge the Americans by the square meter, that would be more than the three billion we receive annually. Egypt gets her 2 billion plus because we do. were we to stop receiving a lot of pressure from Congress would be exerted to halt Egyptian freebies..
I do agree that we should give up gradually this aid, but I fear it will only come about if America breaks the umbilical cords, that is why I am hoping Obama wins. I hope he is as bad or worse for us as all the commenter’s here believe he is. It will also fuck you Jews in North America as your sturdy foundations will thus become ever so shaky, especially America but you guys in Canad will not be immune. If you would like Narvey not Peskin I will post or send you Aliyah information. Peskin would not be welcome here.
Bill and Yamit: I shall reply to your posts within the next few days. You have certainly thrown a lot of material at me to chew on.
——————————————————————————–
DR LERNER’S REPLY TO S HOROWITZ RESPONSE
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 21:17:39 +0300
From: imra@netvision.net.il
Subject: I think it is a mistake to attribute dismal performance of Israel’s leadership to limits set by America.
I think it is a mistake to attribute the dismal performance of Israel’s leadership to limits set by America.
#1. Israeli initiatives have been almost without exception carried out with American approval only ex-post:
- Oslo, talks with Syria AND the idea of a sovereign Palestinian State were Israeli initiatives carried out without prior American approval.
Yes: President Bush only talked of a sovereign Palestinian State well after Sharon went very public with this stand.
#2. When Israel’s leadership was determined that action had to be taken it acted even if America was cool to the idea (e.g.. the bombing of both the Iraqi and Syrian nuclear facilities)
#3. When Israel’s leadership was determined to act in “fact creating” – be it in Jerusalem or Judea and Samaria – American displeasure didn’t stop it,.
But I am not going to the trouble to send this note simply out of an interest in setting the record straight.
There is a serious policy implication if one accepts the idea that before Israel can act differently it has to complete a very long and arduous halt to its dependency on the U.S.: it provides a ready excuse for a continuation of the terribly destructive policies it carries out today until this independence is achieved.
Let’s not be so easy on our leaders.
Let’s not let them off the hook.
Best regards,
Dr. Aaron Lerner – IMRA
_____________________________________________________________________________________
H. Peskin Response
Dear Dr. Lerner,
No one doubts for a moment that America has been pressuring Israel
for many year to comply with its own initiatives. And certainly the massive
assistance in the form of financial aid, diplomatic and defence
support is powerful leverage for Israel to abide by America’s
wishes. Oslo, Whye, Camp David 1 and 2, Madrid, were all American
sponsored plans. To suggest that it is possible to initiate an attack on Gaza in the manner that you have formulated without U.S.’s prior
approval is dishonest and disingenous. Especially at this time when
America is seeking to recuperate its reputation with the Arab masses.
Hyman Peskin
____________________________________________________________
;
And Dr. Lerner was kind enough to reply almost immediately.
From: Dr. Aaron Lerner (imra@netvision.net.il)
Sent: July 20, 2008 4:20:41 AM
To: hyman peskin (hpeskin@hotmail.com)
Hi,
Sorry – don’t share your view.
And I don’t have to go back decades.
They were anything but celebrating our plans to attack Syria.
But when they saw we were determined to act we were a able to act.
Best regards,
Aaron
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Yamit: Each time I make a comment you explode as if I had inserted a I.E.D.(improvised electronic devise) up your rectum. You are indeed a sick, sick puppie. I have suggested therapy but you just don’t listen.
Please make an appointment with ISRAEL’S INSTITUTE FOR ANGER MANAGEMENT A.S.A P.
http://www.shinui-institute.com/
Israpundit readers (those who support Israel) should pay close attention to yamit’s post #53. It makes an erudite case for breaking the umbilical cord to the United States and the (counter-intuitive) proposition that an Obama presidency would actually be the best outcome for Israel.
It’s a gamble to elect a man who is a naif, a radical left-winger, a closet Arabist and who in all likelihood will surround himself with advisors who are vehemently anti-Israel (see Daniel Kurtzer). But one should weigh these risks against those of the status quo where Israel’s dependence on an ostensibly pro-Israel administration affords America the leverage to coerce lethal concessions.
Remember, it is “the best friend Israel has ever had” in the White House that first called for a Palestinian state, accepted the Saudi “peace plan” masquerading as the Road Map, submitted it to the UNSC while ignoring Israel’s 14 reservations, compelled elections bringing Hamas to power, embraces a Holocaust Denier fatuously as a “man of peace”, pressures Israel through his Secretary of State to open border crossings and remove checkpoints, has provided advanced weapons to the Arabs, and offered nuclear technology gratis to his Saudi buddies.
Israel and America are in a co-dependent relationship where Israel is the battered wife being financially supported by the husband so she does not leave. An amicable divorce with, say a year of alimony payments, could be just what the doctor ordered.
Israel’s problem is not the United States.
Israel’s problem is Israel.
Back at the ranch. When Ted Belman left a fox entered the henhouse and wreaked havoc. Feathers flew. That fox is named Peskin. Ted belman, where are you now that we need you.
Shy Guy: You seem to to be a good diagnostician. Do you believe, like I that success is ruining Israel.It has become a fat, materialistic cat losing the pioneering spirit that allowed it to overcome unbelievable odds and survive and thrive. Most Israelis would rather maintain the status quo for fear that a real change of course might involve the loss of an ipod or cell phone.
Charles Martel: Yes cutting the umbilical cord connecting Israel to America is the way to go. But how is it possible that it will happen when it remains almost an unmentionable topic in the Knesset, rarely discussed in political circles, and generally regarded something to consider sometime in the distant future. For far too many in both Israel and in the diasporo there is a sense of entitlement-Israel has been receiving these monies for so many years that it should continue as a matter of course. I think that it is good that we are discussing this matter but I am cynical enough to believe that nothing will change.
Charles Martel: # 58 I wholeheartedly agree with both you and Yamit- definitely essential almost mandatory for Israel to be weaned off the American financial teat. However most of Israel public and especially the Israeli Right are not really interested. It takes Israpundit’s resident Bolshevik to sound the alarm and most everyone piles up on him when he does.
A week ago the New York Times published an op-ed article by Benny Morris, Israel’s foremost historian. He surmised that America, having soured on the war option has definitely given up on an attack on Iran, even if the latter continues on the present path towards developingthe bomb. Israel, he feels has no choice but to opt for an attack.
_______________________________________________He wrote:
EXCERPTED
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/18/opinion/18morris.html?scp=1&sq=benny%20morris&st=cse
An nuclear armed Iran would confront Israeli leaders with two agonizing, dismal choices. One is to allow the Iranians to acquire the bomb and hope for the best — meaning a nuclear standoff, with the prospect of mutual assured destruction preventing the Iranians from actually using the weapon. The other would be to use the Iranian counterstrikes as an excuse to escalate and use the only means available that will actually destroy the Iranian nuclear project: Israel’s own nuclear arsenal.
Given the fundamentalist, self-sacrificial mindset of the mullahs who run Iran, Israel knows that deterrence may not work as well as it did with the comparatively rational men who ran the Kremlin and White House during the cold war. They are likely to use any bomb they build, both because of ideology and because of fear of Israeli nuclear pre-emption. THUS AN ISRAELI NUCLEAR STRIKE TO PREVENT THE IRANIANS FROM TAKING THE FINAL STEPS TOWARD GETTING THE BOMB IS PROBABLE.. The alternative is letting Tehran have its bomb. In either case, a Middle Eastern nuclear holocaust would be in the cards.
Iran’s leaders would do well to rethink their gamble and suspend their nuclear program. Bar this, the best they could hope for is that Israel’s conventional air assault will destroy their nuclear facilities. To be sure, this would mean thousands of Iranian casualties and international humiliation. But the alternative is an Iran turned into a nuclear wasteland. Some Iranians may believe that this is a worthwhile gamble if the prospect is Israel’s demise. But most Iranians probably don’t.
_____________________________________________
hp
The questions that I pose. Is this article part of the psychological mind games being played-of threat and counter threat..Or much more troubling, does Morris have some inside information, suggesting that Israel is contemplating a nuclear strike to ensure success?
Benny Morris’s contention that Iran is ruled by self sacrificial Mullahs that would easily offer up the lives of millions of Iranians in a nuclear attack on Israel is not borne up by history. In an eight year bitter conflict with Iraq, there was not one shred of evidence that the Iranians had that tendency. They fought hard but when they felt that they would be best served by the cessation of hostilities they did just that. Being involved in proxy wars is one thing-committing Hari kari is quite another.
Larry Gordon: Prior post: Is Israel threatening or is serious about a preemptive nuclear strike? There are so many doubts about the likely success of an attack that I could not begin to enumerate them. Is Israel warranted to have fears of a nuclear armed Iran? Only insofar as the huge disparity of numbers between the populations of the two nations. The fact that the Iranian pres. Ahmadinejad is making the threats against Israel and not The Supreme Leader is cause for less concern. For the former has little power and no control over the military wheras the Supreme Leader Commander in Chief of all of the Iranian forces. All indications are that the President is supremely unpopular and is more likely to be voted out of office in the next elections.
Having been a student of Benny Morris many years ago,may I saye his expertise is history. His focus is the past and I can assure you, from what I remember of him he is speculating on what might happen-I rather doubt that he has any inside government connections. He was a pure scholar and not the type at all that might be a funnel for government leaks(intended). I might be wrong but I rather doubt it.
There is one big distinction to be made, The Iranians are not at all like the Arabs. They have always been very welcoming to Jews and even those with strong religious convictions do not have the kind of vitriolic anti-semitic attitudes found in Arab countries. I have travelled extensively in Iran and lived there several years. Iran has a marvellous history dating back to the biblical days and their culture is rich and varied. If you don’t believe me go there yourself. A Jew will find it rediculously easy to obtain a visa and I’m Jewish, born in the States and live now in Canada. It most certainly is not Nazi Germany and Jews are found in all strata of society and feel little prejudice. You might find some anti Jewish feeeling but it is less there than in most countries of the world.
Horowitz writes in #49 and Peskin has always agreed
I beg to differ. Israel can get along without the $3 billion and that has been so for over a decade when Netanyahu was proposing Israel end it. In my opinion it is the US that wants it to continue so that they control Israel’s defense industries, support their own and have the green light to sell to the Arabs. I also don’t think it looms large when Israel is considering alternate actions. I think political support is more important to Israel. Israel and the US have a very close alliance on ME matters which is right and natural. But each acts independently when it suits them.
As for Peskin being a fox in the hen house, I appreciate his contribution here. The debates in America and Israel are between the left and the right. Israpundit should similarly have both points of view represented. Also Peskin is intelligent and knowledgeable. He prides himself on being an arch realist. Thus he argues that Israpundit readers should recognize that Israel can’t buck world opinion. That’s his bottom line. I and many of my readers have not thrown in the towel beliving if we play our cards right we can make a difference perhaps a big one.
The reason there is no talk now of giving up the money is because the government of Israel is looking to have American support in achieving the two-state solution. When Israel finally comes to the conclusion that it wants to pursue another plan then if the US doesn’t go along, the debate will come again for ending the money flow.
An elementary symptom of Jews abandoning their Torah for the secular world. If you’re no more a biological freak of nature than a paramecium, why should you care about anything other than me, myself and I?
“And Jeshurun became fat and rebelled; you grew fat, thick and rotund; [Israel] forsook the God Who made them, and spurned the [Mighty] Rock of their salvation.
They provoked His zeal with alien worship; they made Him angry with abominations deeds.
They sacrificed to demons, which have no power, deities they did not know, new things that only recently came, which your forefathers did not fear.
You forgot the [Mighty] Rock Who bore you; you forgot the God Who delivered you.
And the Lord saw this and became angry, provoked by His sons and daughters.
And He said, “I will hide My face from them. I will see what their end will be, for they are a generation of changes; they are not [recognizable] as My children whom I have reared.
They have provoked My jealousy with a non god, provoked My anger with their vanities. Thus, I will provoke their jealousy with a non people, provoke their anger with a foolish nation.”
– Deuteronomy 32:15-21
Celia:-p 68
Being a Jew in Iran is not all that bad, being a Bahai, or Kurd, or a member of any other non Persian minority member is not all that great.
Everything’s relative. Objectively life is precarious for the Jews of Iran.
Shy Guy: Your chances of being attacked for being a Jew in downtown Teheran is infintely less than in downtown Jerusalem, Tel-Aviv or Paris. And I include being attacked by all means, gun, knife, bomb or vehicle including, tractor, and bulldozer. ( See today’s CNN oe BBC news)
Celia, my sources aren’t CNN and BBC. Mine go to Iran and deal with the Jews there. If you asked the vast majority of them (not under duress and with 1000% assurance that they could take their valuables and their family members with them – which they often cannot) whether they’d rather stay in Iran or set up a new life in “dangerous” downtown Jerusalem, they’d jump on the first plane here.
But you just keep on trusting widely respected sources line CNN and the BBC.
Shy guy: Don’t take my word for it re the situation of Jews in Iran. You can easily go there, it is not Saudi- Arabia or some other repressive Arab nation. There is quite a difference between the attitudes of Some Iranian Arab officials such as the Pres. and the vast bulk of Iranian people. I would also not judge America by the actions and words of their current Pres. who by the way , has a great deal more power than his Iranian counterpart.
Shy Guy: Having read the N.Y.Times op ad article by Benny Morris allow me to make some comments.
Note, in the wake of 9/11 attacks Iran was one of the single greatest sources of help assisting America to overturn the Taliban regime. This despite the fact that Pres. Bush declared Iran one of the axis of evil.
Iran was instrumental in having the Sadrist Militia cease there violent actions in South Iraq and in the Baghdad area.
Where the interest of the U.S. and Iran converged both countries have cooperated fully.
Does these acts reflect the image of a wild irrational Iranian leadership?
Contrast that picture with that of the American President who when asked if he had consulted his Father before invading Iraq, stated simply, “it was not necessary, I prayed
to God and He provided the approval I needed.”
Wow! The world is truly nuts.
Celia: 76- Since you know so much about Iran, what would you do about Iran, if you indeed believe Iran is a problem?
A victory in the second world war required some 7-10 million enemy deaths.It was not pleasant but it had to be done. And no weapon was excluded. We are losing the war on Islamofascism because we are not prepared to do as we did in 2nd wld war- hit them where they are and not to hesitate- and to do what we must without fear of inflicting civilian casualties. otherwise we will continue to flounder as we are.
chucky: A few questions; Who exactly, when, where, and who pays? We are broke, and those monkeys haven’t the decency to wear identifying uniforms nor large labels indicating ‘terrorist’ on their backs and you no what these cowards are quite willing to die for theur misguided ideals. And where are we to get some 1.3 billion bullets to do the job?.
Chucky: keep in mind that it took millions of allied casualties to inflict those millions of enemy deaths. That was a period of total war with a general draft. That is simply not the case now. Most of the western world are much more concerned with the price of oil and who is likely to win the next World series or World cup than Islamofascism.
Peskin: The president of Iran is Hitler incarnate and the Iranians must be dealt with as we dealt with Hitler and his hordes. Sharply said, sharply meant.–Full stop.
chucky: In any unending argument there is a maximum known as “reducto ad Hitlerum.” One side will eventually end up comparing the opponent with Hitler. That side will inevitably lose.
Thanks for the info: I did not explode! where did you see or feel an explosion. If I were to explode you would know it and certainly feel it. I thought I ans, your position on point and you never bothered a reply as promised? cat got your big mouth? If I were you I would worry about Canada for when America collapses (figuratively) They will take Canada with them. I am laughing here! A tip for you Sell all your tied up assets and convert to Gold or contracts and wait out the coming debacle! The whole world will feel the shock waves but some of us will weather the coming crisis better than others.
Israel will never voluntarily make the first move in disentangling herself from th Gordian political and economic knots she finds herself in, It will have to be the Americans who make the first , 2nd and 3rd moves. Only then will Israel faced with a no alternative situation do what she should have years ago re- learn how to stand on her own feet, so rather than fear an Obama I sort of look forward to his presidency. I hope he doesn’t disappoint!
Celia what you say is generally true and Shy Guy also is correct in that all is relative. Our problem is the threat and dare we not take it seriously when considering our recent past when no one or almost no one took the Guy with Chaplin mustache seriously. (once burnt?) The other problem is if allowed to produce nukes they have a sword to hold over our necks. I nor most Israelis would not want to live under such conditions here. Bad for economic investments here, bad for tourism, bad for Aliyah and bad all around. An Iranian bomb even with implied threat could make life in Israel untenable!!
I remember Duck and Cover!!!Ha Ha
Palworthy
What, are you a bleeding heart for Bahais and kurds?
First you kill anyone shooting at us, then you kill anyone with an open wepon even if is only a scissors.The you kill any one in the close proximity to those shooting at us. Measure for Measure at the least but I am an advocate for disproportionate response in all cases!
Wars should always be fought to win and if total war is a necessary prerequisite so be it! With todays modern weaponry large draft not necessary only for specialty personnel.
Remember America Let the Russians die and bleed the Germans so much so that it allowed an allied victory. All it cost America was free hardware including Planes and tanks.
Yamit: where were you? You were gone so long we began to worry that you might have just thrown in the towel after my tongue lashing. Welcome back.
I am looking after the store while Ted is away. 90 posts are not bad for late July, so Ted need not rush back.
The gunslinger(G.B) will be hanging up his holster and your gung ho shoot em up talk will be going out of style come the new year. The Yanks have been badly burnt in both Iraq and Afghanistan and are less likely to be so reckless next time round.
With regard to $3.5 bil in U.S. aid, America is hardly holding a gun to Israel’s head to accept it. And should you have any influence with the Israeli powers that be,as I am sure you have, ask them to kindly forget the whole thing when grant renewal time comes around.
the very best,
Correction on my previous post. I should have Written 3.5 bil$ for annual U.S. aid to Israel rather than 2 bil$ .
With the deflated dollar whats a paltry 1.5 billion? America earns that much every 20 min. or so. They waste more than that on gold plated toilets in the pentagon. anyway it all in the family right? At least they are getting big bang for their bucks Lol.
It’s official: When they go to the polls on Election Day, San Franciscans will decide whether one of their sewage plants should be renamed after our sitting president.
Voters will be asked whether the Oceanside Water Pollution Control Plant should be renamed the George W. Bush Sewage Plant. The facility — the city’s newest — sits right next door to the city zoo and is a stone’s throw from the Pacific Ocean.
The measure was certified today for the November ballot after organizers — the ersatz Presidential Memorial Commission of San Francisco — collected enough valid signatures.
Organizer Brian McConnell said the name change would be a “fitting monument to this president’s work.” His group is also planning a “synchronized flush” on Inauguration Day in January.
Yamit: You need not worry about Canada’s financial status.
Canada is one of the world’s major oil exporter. With the price of a barrel of oil at $ 135.++ a barrel we are not doing badly. And every time you threaten an attack on Iran, we do even better.
Larry Gordon: p94 Another suggestion for a name change honoring G.W.Bush-Since our beloved President has done so much to expand the use of the following,
The Arlington National Military Cemetary to the G.W. Bush National cemetary.
Palworthy: And I say AMEN and I second the motion
Yamit: You are correct- I do owe you and Narvey a response, I note that I issued the the following challenge to Narvey and it is now long past due.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Bill Narvey:
I am sorry Bill that I don’t toe the party line. I know that I have not provided you with the answers that you wish but since you are such a tough interrogator, why not reverse roles. Letus just pretend that you have just been elected Prime Minister of Israel and you are about to assume your position. I would appreciate if you could indicate what your policy position would, and how would it differ from that of Olmert. Keep in mind that Israel is not living in a vacuum…. but now its your call. Remember you have given me a very tough time, so allow me to critique what you write.
Take your your time, you needn’t respond immediately if you so wish.
Thank you Prime Minister Narvey
Comment by h peskin — June 27, 2008 @ 7:36 pm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yamit: Did it take Israel 25 years to realize that they could live without all those billions from America?. If they could manage fine without those grants, why not have the money diverted to the drought ridden areas of Africa where it could be well used. Perhaps I am getting a bit two close a very sensitive area.
Yamit: If you are concerned with the nuclear threat from Iran, it might be best to look at terror central first. Here I am referring to Pakistan with an unstable gov’t, with approximately 20 nukes, with Islamists infiltrated into the military, intelligence services and the educational establishment. And did I forget the Taliban are their creation and in truth their present sponsor and funder.