Evangelicals: An appreciation
A prominent American Jewish leader recently told me that the passionate standing ovation he received after addressing 4,000 participants at John Hagee’s Christians United for Israel rally in Washington was reminiscent of the fervent Zionist gatherings he attended as a youngster. The two-day Evangelical Christian parley was designed to express support for Israel, receive updates on the current challenges facing the Jewish state and lobby congressmen in support of Israel. They heard addresses from Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu via satellite, Sen. Joe Lieberman, Ambassador Michael Oren, Malcolm Hoenlein of the Presidents’ Conference and others.
At a time when much of global public opinion views Israel through the distorted lenses of Arab and anti-Semitic defamation, millions of Evangelicals have emerged as our most devoted supporters.
The evolution of this relationship is extraordinary and defies logic. It is only over the past three decades that support for Israel assumed such a high priority among this Christian denomination, which is rapidly expanding at a time when other churches are in dramatic decline.
Until recently, most Jews regarded Evangelicals as zealots obsessed with a desire to convert everyone. They also believed that their philo-Semitism was not “genuine” because it was based on an eschatology which predicted that the second coming of the messiah would only come after the Jewish people had returned to Israel and brought about the end of days.
In addition, the strongly liberal American Jewish community, obsessed with separation of church and state, gay rights and abortion, regarded Evangelicals as dangerous right-wing extremists and until recently were complaining that politicians like Netanyahu, who addressed their gatherings, embarrassed them.
YET DESPITE this hostility, the Evangelicals continued to upgrade support for Israel, to the point where it is now a central feature of their world outlook.
As though divine providence had intervened, the change took place precisely when liberals, the traditional supporters of the Jews, embraced postmodernism and began turning against Israel, which was no longer an underdog. Alas, today, many liberals engage in campaigns demonizing and delegitimizing the Jewish state.
Evangelical support for Israel is not matched by other Christian denominations. Many Protestant churches have in fact transformed their antipathy toward Israel into hatred. The Catholic Church made enormous progress identifying the evil of anti-Semitism, but due to a combination of realpolitik and an unwillingness to swallow the bitter theological pill of recognizing Jewish statehood, it is still far from evenhanded in relation to the Arab-Israel conflict.
The truth is that Evangelicals are no more monolithic than Jews. They do include fringe groups who are fanatics, believers in the apocalyptic end of the Jewish people, missionaries and even anti-Semites. But the vast majority are God-fearing people who pray for the welfare of Israel and share an unconditional love for Jews as God’s chosen people.
The principal reason for Evangelical support is that unlike other Christian groups, they reject replacement theology, which teaches that God forsook the Jews for having rejected Jesus. They respect Judaism as the foundation of Christianity and believe that the Jews will always remain God’s chosen people. They believe that the Jewish claim to Israel is based on the biblical promise from God. That may embarrass secular Jews, but for traditional Jews it remains the core of their relationship with the Holy Land.
Evangelicals also believe that when God told Abraham that those who bless the “Children of Israel” will also be blessed (Genesis 12:3) this meant that God would bless Christians who love the Jewish people and support the State of Israel. They also believe that the ingathering of the Jews will precede the return of the messiah, and quote Isaiah 60:14 saying: “The sons of your oppressors will come bowing before you” as a prophecy that righteous gentiles can partake in this process.
These feelings nurtured the early 19th century Christian Zionists and subsequently motivated people like Lord Balfour, who authored the Balfour Declaration; Orde Wingate, who helped create the Hagana; Rev John Stanley Grauel, the hero on board the Exodus, who disclosed what happened in a firsthand report which had a crucial impact on the UN Special Committee on Palestine; writers like Pierre van Paassen, who promoted the Zionist cause; and many others.
EVANGELICALS’ SUPPORT for the Jewish state today manifests itself primarily by advocacy for Israel. However, they insist that they will never publicly “pressure or oppose policies adopted by Israel’s democratically elected government.”
Evangelical political clout with the Democratic administration is considerably weaker than it was under president George W. Bush. Nevertheless, with more than 60 million adherents, they still represent one of the most powerful political forces in the United States. They recently formed a Christian counterpart to AIPAC to lobby congressmen and canvass against legislation hostile to Israel.
Many rank-and-file church-goers donate generously to projects designed to strengthen Israel. For example, the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews initiated by Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein today represents the largest single donor to the Jewish Agency and was among those who contributed seed money to launch Nefesh B’Nefesh.
The 50 dedicated representatives of the International Christian Embassy Jerusalem, which has branches in 80 nations, spearhead the noble Christian Zionist presence in the Holy Land. They publish and broadcast information about Israel to the world. From generous contributions from members, they fund substantial social programs including assistance to integrate immigrants and support for former Gush Katif residents. They actively promote missions to Israel and host major pilgrim tours. They now represent one of the most dynamic sources of Israeli tourism.
Although most Israelis and Jews now appreciate the enormous value of Evangelical support, some liberal Jews continue to criticize the relationship, and ill-informed Orthodox Jews persist in mistakenly perceiving all Evangelicals as missionaries. It is axiomatic that we differ with Evangelicals over theology. But an alliance based on specific goals does not oblige both parties to adopt each other’s approach on broader issues.
On Israel-related issues, a pragmatic cooperation is not a matter of creed but of political common sense. Besides, Evangelical support has never been conditional on a quid pro quo. It is thus surely unbecoming for us to remain passive while misguided Jews behave in a churlish manner to our greatest supporters.
On a personal level, I am proud to be associated with Evangelicals on various projects to promote Israel. I also enjoy being able to discuss political issues with people who still recognize the existence of good and evil instead of dealing with mind-numbing postmodernism and the moral equivalency that one continuously encounters with confused liberals.
The alliance with the Evangelicals represents one of the few bright lights in an otherwise dismal political environment. Indeed, were there more Evangelicals in Protestant/Catholic Europe, the prevailing hostility against Israel in that region might yet be substantially modified.
As an observant Jew, I appreciate their support and hope that they will be blessed for their friendship.
wait a minute: “ill informed jews mistake evangelicals as missionaries”…
so who is promoting xn broadcasting on israeli television? who is supporting (paying for and actively participating) in the ‘messianic (yech,wretch)’ phenomenon in israel and the west? why do reliable organizations like jews for judaism and yad l’achim continue to express severe concern on the disturbing level of conversions and missionary activity?
what about all this?
i know evangelical xns who are fine people and from whom i haven’t experienced or felt a missionary intent; however, i can’t judge a phenomenon simply by my own limited personal experience. i think there are jews involved with the xn world who are swept up in their fervor without sufficient soul-radar to detect not only a deeper intention but more importantly a terrible lack of candor about what they either support or allow.
our torah says do not stand idly by when somone’s blood is shed or life is in danger: well, our people’s souls are definitely in danger with the wide range of missionary activity at this time.
i am always wary of ‘xns who love us’. see yosef hakohen’s piece on “how xn love can hurt us”
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/7568
read this and then hopefully the jewish lovers of evangelicals will work to make them root out all the missionary activity. personally, i am very bothered by the building of missionary institutions in israel, esp under the guise of something else.
our leaders must show more responsibility and caution here. they must, and we must excercise zero tolerance for any missionary activity. we’re talking the life of a jewish soul here. nothiing is more precious than this in the eyes of Heaven. we must understand this for our own good and the good of the world.
Comment by bugsy — August 17, 2009 @ 5:51 pm
http://jewishisrael.ning.com/profiles/blogs/a7-pulls-radio-segment-on
http://api.ning.com/files/x3DFVQWJ6CgB0yHcCctr6ZkR13WAdcGIjpZxztRQS6QRp0a5guE3*7GN4pxOW4xjVl5hEOEB*Id4-7DoWmscHIAKpED
JI staff member Ellen Horowitz was interviewed in the first half, followed by an interview with former Christian, Shmuel Amos Mann. The show was featured on the A7 Radio homepage for a very brief period before being taken down (see screen shot of feature page).
Jewish Israel asked A7 station manager Baruch Gordon why the show was removed. He responded as follows:
“The title of the show “Don’t Trust Chri$tians” was completely out of taste and not fit for publication on our site. Arutz Sheva is leading a battle to strengthening Jewish identity on many fronts and in particular against the threat of Christian missionaries and such offensive language only hurts our cause.”
Jewish Israel feels that the title was indeed provocative, but radio show host Yehuda HaKohen, who is also the director of the Zionist Freedom Alliance (ZFA), is a no-nonsense kind of guy and not one to mince words. Yehuda is also a member of the Jewish Israel online community and he told us that, “This is a serious issue that most activists aren’t aware of and it’s very important that we do everthing we can to expose this danger confronting the Jewish people”
Jewish Israel feels that the content of the show was good and well-worth listening too. So we have uploaded the first half of the program here, in MP3 format.
The Religious Zionist public views an online news service like INN (Arutz 7) as the last bastion of free and true press here in Israel. Indeed, Israel National News describes itself as “the only independent national radio station in Israel” . While Jewish Israel understands INN’s difficult position in this matter, and while we appreciate their concern and sensitivity towards their non-Jewish visitors; we feel that this radio program was important and should be aired with an appropriate change in title.
Jewish Israel has a good working relationship with Arutz 7 and frequently links to their news items and has praised their coverage.
Listen to the segment:
http://api.ning.com/files/vZTrPLglsc9WBznDBlEOhyEnHA-HbL3pxM0SAG3IG3b6UK8mAB4vNrZgumZu31u-KypoWe3aG3kMSzzR5QwhIUhrgGjxsCQf/INNTheStruggle66AMonday20Av5769August102009DoNOTtrusttheChritianspart1.mp3
4 Comments
A7 gets a lot of money from Christian Zionists and are loath to cut off the money tree so they pulled this segment./ This is an example of what dirty money can do. Self censorship. Promoting the lies and the real goals of all Christian evangelicals.
Comment by yamit82 — August 17, 2009 @ 6:19 pm
I stand by Leibler’s article. We need their support. I am glad to have it.
Comment by Ted Belman — August 17, 2009 @ 6:56 pm
Liberal Jews defend Muslim anti-Semites and condemn Christian Hebrewphiles.
I think they have it backwards.
Comment by ayn reagan — August 17, 2009 @ 7:34 pm
If Mr. Leibler would bother to read the paper he writes for as well as other Israeli publications, he would note that in the past few months alone we have had stories of Jesus in the IDF; the proselytizing of old and infirm Holocaust survivors; A Kashrut licensing controversy involving an Israeli Jewish convert to Christianity; High Court decisions over Israel’s Law of Return in favor messianics; full blown Jews for Jesus campaigns in the streets of Israel;street fights between messianic missionaries and Torah observant Jews ;Russian language Christian television being launched in Israel to target the Russian immigrant population ; lawsuits against counter-missionary organizations, dozens of cases of fake conversions to Judaism by practicing Christians, a heavy evangelical presence and representation in World Likud,the Knesset Christian Allies Caucus , and the Jewish Agency.
Obviously Isi Leibler is the one who is “ill-informed”, as the evangelicals are influencing Israeli society and effecting the nature and character of the Jewish state. Whether or not the benefits of such an alliance out–weigh the problems inherent in the relationship is something each and every Jew, in both Israel and the Diaspora, needs to ask themselves. The very erudite Mr. Leibler has chosen to take an elementary, naïve, and simplistic view of a very complex and existential Jewish issue.
Suggest you go to the blog list at JewishIsrael.com and run through the headlines for yourself
Comment by ellenwriter — August 17, 2009 @ 8:08 pm
Leibler may be an observant Jew , I doubt it, but it’s not my concern. He is a very stupid Jew without a doubt.
Do you want to see how much they Love the Jews? Have a law passed that every Christian Missionary caught proselytizing and convicted here in Israel gets automatically 5 years in our nice prisons and 50,000 dollar fine, payable before he can get out. All money derived from such sources must go specifically to anti missionary NGO’s. No Crosses allowed On the Temple mount or in front of the WALL.
Any Israeli Politician found to be receiving funds connected with Christian groups will be disqualified from serving in any public capacity, or serving and running for public office. Any Israeli Jew who converts to Christianity should have his citizenship removed. No Christian should be allowed to serve in the IDF, and that includes Messianic Jews.
I dare say these and other restrictions on Christians would put their LOOVE for the Jews and Israel to the test. If their Love is theologically based it wouldn’t matter.
Vayishlach: When Christian ‘Love’ Can Hurt Us
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/7568
Evangelicals: Knights in Shining Armor or Trojan Horse?
by Rabbi Bentzion Kravitz
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/7216
Just Say Know: What “Real Christians” Believe about Jews
Try this: Ask any fundamentalist Christian why his/her spiritual forebears launched the Inquisition, the Crusades, or the Holocaust. 10 out of 10 will retort, “Those weren’t real Christians. Real Christians love the Jews and wouldn’t do that.” So, what then, do “real Christians” believe about Jews?
written by Mark W. Sanders
Try this: Ask any fundamentalist Christian why his/her spiritual forebears launched the Inquisition, the Crusades, or the Holocaust. 10 out of 10 will retort, “Those weren’t real Christians. Real Christians love the Jews and wouldn’t do that.” So, what then, do “real Christians” believe about Jews?
As a former fundamentalist minister, I know the answers intimately. I spent years living by one imperative: Preach the Gospel (personal salvation through faith in Christ) to the ends of the earth (to all people everywhere), as outlined in Matthew 28:18. Through this enterprise, I believed that Christians would eventually trigger the second coming of Christ, who could not return to earth till all had heard the Gospel, till the last home and hamlet had been reached. This is the ultimate responsibility of all real Christians (Matthew 24:14). Ask them. They will tell you. Otherwise, they are not truly “Bible believing.”
Real Christians affirm that all non-believers are lost. Each must repent or reject in response to hearing the Good News. Paul of Tarsus, who wrote at least 13 of the 27 books of the New Testament, refined the focus, saying “the gospel . . . is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.” (Romans 1:16)
Many missions to Jews use this text to validate their outreach. For them, the conversion of the Jew is the top priority in world evangelism. While all souls are important, Jews are most important. Paul hints at a day when the Jews will respond: “Israel has experienced a hardening in part (by rejecting Christ) until the full number of Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved . . .” (Romans 11:26). I myself used these passages in raising funds to evangelize Jewish souls (may G-d forgive me).
Real Christians have a love-hate relationship toward the Jews. While believing the original Hebrew Scriptures to be the infallible and inspired word of God, they also believe the New Testament to be equally, though superceedingly, inspired. This includes Paul’s words in which he calls Jews “the enemies of the Gospel.” But Paul explains that this had to happen for God’s acceptance to be extended to the Gentiles.
read full article:
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=343:just-say-know-what-qreal-christiansq-believe-about-jews-&catid=27:missionary-groups–tactics-and-responses&Itemid=228
The following commonly held opinions on Israel’s relationship with evangelizing Christians have been expressed by known rabbis, community leaders, entrepreneurs, political leaders, Zionist activists, and media personalities in both the Jewish communities of Israel and the Diaspora. http://jewishisrael.ning.com/profiles/blogs/israels-evangelical-embrace
• “The Evangelicals are our best friends, don’t ask questions” (”don’t bite the hand that feeds you”). “I’ll take all the friends I can get”.
• “When the Messiah comes, we’ll see what happens” (”we’ll ask is this your first time or second?” “we will ask him if he’s coming or returning and that would establish if we would all be Jews or Christians. Until he comes, I don’t worry myself about this.”)
• “Take the money - don’t convert”
• “I’ll guard my soul; you guard yours”
• “I’m secure in my faith. I’m not going to convert”
• “What can be better than Jews taking money from goyim?”
• They owe us and I’m taking. They [the gentiles] can never repay us for the damage they’ve done”
• “We have the same Bible, we pray to the same G-d, the only difference of opinion we have is over moshiach”
• “Without the support of Evangelical Christians, Israel would cease to exist.”
• “They [the evangelicals] are not just friends of Israel; they are Israel.”
• “They know how to give. We know how to take. It’s strictly business”
You still don’t get it? The above list is nothing more than a recipe for our spiritual destruction (G-d forbid), as it combines of a lack of foresight and hindsight, selfish arrogance, spiritual and historical ignorance, and a scoffing at sacred concepts.
Comment by yamit82 — August 17, 2009 @ 8:59 pm
TED!, please re-read my comment and read yosef hakohen’s article. i’m not saying we nix all the evangies. but we must be very careful on how we deal with them and do our best to prevent them from funding or supporting directly/indirectly any missionary work in israel or elsewhere.
our source and our root is the Torah of HaShem. if we don’t honor that we got big trouble in river city. i don’t care how much money the evangies give or how much they cry and shout that they love israel. the truth is they love israel for their own agenda!!! their own vision of salvation.
they can do that if they want, but we as jewish people must keep them in check.
ted!!!!!!!!!
Comment by bugsy — August 17, 2009 @ 9:00 pm
yasher koach yamit.
ted, my friend, you must take another look at this.
Comment by bugsy — August 17, 2009 @ 9:02 pm
ted, ted, ted, ted you do great work and a great service w/israpundit. we read you all the time.
i strongly encourage you to re-evaluate your position on evangies. israel experiences external and internal threats. external=islam,leftists,violence from jew hate etc internal=missionaries,also lefty-jews,islam etc.
the soul of our people is our strength through our connection to the Torah of HaShem. these evangies are chas v’shalom trying to undermine it and have had some success with israeli politicians and supporters. i am so tired of pro-israel people telling me to ’shut up’ about the missionaries and focus on the jihad. newsflash: we need to attend to both.
for the sake of the true identity, soul and spirit of yerushalayim,, ted, we need you to re-evaluate your position on this and not support pieces like leibler’s.
Comment by bugsy — August 17, 2009 @ 9:44 pm
Bugsy cool it Ted is a grown up and has his own opinions however wrong but then don’t we all. He and we I guess will have to learn the hard way. 61 years ago a handful of Jewish zealots defeated the mighty British Army and forced them to Leave the Land of Israel. We had here then only 600 thousand Jews. They accomplished in a few years what the Irish couldn’t do in 700 years. Today we have almost 6 million Jews here and hundreds of thousands of zealous Jews who would sacrifice body and soul for the Land of Israel so on balance we are in a much stronger position today. There is a Jewish revival of Jews returning to their Jewish roots all over the country, more Torah learning today than at any time in our history. I am not afraid of missionaries They will get some of our Jewish souls Like Amalek attacked the weak and infirm but like with Amalek we are commanded to fight and destroy them in every generation ( Metaphorically ) I can’t leave the field open to them without a good fight, that would be not only a hilul hashem but a debt to our ancestors who persevered against all odds to bring us to this day. I would not insult and disgrace their memory by bowing to their descendants. I am not onto turning the other cheek and forgetting the past, nor am I into PC or pluralistic liberalism and humanism. I am into Judaism but a Judaism not rooted in the Galut. The Judaism rooted in the Land of Israel is the Judaism with any merit today. Even if we didn’t have such a negative history with Christianity and they had treated us well throughout history I would still be opposed to engaging in any form of ecumenical relationships with them. Jews must be made to realize that at heart they are predators, however good intentioned.
Comment by yamit82 — August 17, 2009 @ 10:38 pm
I agree with Ted. You are way off base on this particular issue, Yamit and bugsy.
Comment by Laura — August 17, 2009 @ 10:59 pm
we have to fight on several fronts. it is disturbing when jewish people show a lack of awareness about the missonary problem. it undermines our essential torah foundation ch’v.
i believe our torah scholars and rabbis before i believe anybody else. jews for judaism and yad’lachim are run by very qualified, experienced and concerned rabbis. rabbi kravitz, of jews for judaism, has been doing this for many years. instead of making excuses for missionaries we need to show strength and proper boundaries.
in the same way that islamists view negotiation as weakness, so too the missionaries.
any jew or gentile who doesn’t sufficiently understand the problem needs to seriously re-evaluate their point of view and read accurate material.
Comment by bugsy — August 17, 2009 @ 11:44 pm
I fully support Ted. Any pro-Israel person would have to be entirely mad to spit in the face of Christian Zionists - the only friends Israel has. I am not a Christian Zionist myself, though I know quite a few Christian Zionists, and I can assure anyone who reads this comment that I have no personal axe to grind.
Comment by Joseph Norland — August 17, 2009 @ 11:52 pm
I am a somewhat religious Jew who has some excellent ties with many Pro Israel Christians. I have observed and I have asked about their intentions to force Christianity on Israelis. Never, not once, have any said to me that their intent was to change any Jew of any nationality to their Christian belief. They love and support Israel because it is where their religion comes from. I’m certain that there are those who would prefer to change Jews, but I find them in a minority.
Comment by Ed D — August 18, 2009 @ 12:14 am
Ed, sorry to have to break the news to you but people do lie. Even good well meaning Christians. In the battle over jewish souls all is fair.
Like the Arabs speak with two tongues, one to the outside world and the other among themselves, so too Christian fundamentalists.
Former Christian Missionary speaks the truth ED:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NUylyDsE-c
Norland based on what you wrote I put you in the brain dead and three monkeys category. I won’t even try to address what you wrote as it is based on negation of credible and empirical data than the converse. Spit in their faces? What’s wrong with saying thanks but no thanks for anything other than political lobbying in Washington? Ah but their agenda goes much deeper they have other tricks and schtiks up their nefarious sleeves. If you want chapter and verse read the posts, check out the links provided do a goggle search on your own and if you are then not convinced that I am right then I fear it is you and Ted who are mad and not the other way around.
Comment by yamit82 — August 18, 2009 @ 12:52 am
wake up call people!
nobody is calling for ’spitting in the face’ of a friend of israel.
but, since when is a jew standing up for himself spitting in the face of anyone?
the missionary problem is serious: broadcasting,institutions, messy-antics,preying on naive secular jews… why don’t you believe reliable historically-proficient sources like jews for judaism and yad l’achim/
what’s the denial going on here folks? denial is a river in africa and you’re acting like the problem doesn’t exist.
also, it is a terrible to imply that the jewish people can’t exist w/o xn money. are you kidding me?
this is the test for the xns: if you truly love israel, then stop all missionary activity directed at jews, period. you wanna missionize? go to some other country and work on some other people.
but, guess what: as pointed out well in the above comments, xns feel religiously compelled to come to the jews.
so the answer is for the jews to put them in check, period.
i won’t stand for one moment of their missionary bullsh-t. you come at me and you risk your safety.
i like the idea of missionary/proselytizing being punishable in israel. we’ve suffered too much over 2000 years from this madness….the absolute gall and nerve for them to come and prey on shoah survivors and naive jews.
if xns had any inkling of the punishment they were incurring in heaven and the wrath of G-d on them for messing with jewish souls they would run away screaming for forgiveness. think i’m wrong? then you don’t know jewish history, the torah or anything.
the jewish people have enough problems with islamofascists and their leftist idiot tools. we must hold our own integrity from within.
xns can send money, they can support israel in their own way, BUT, they must immediately cease and desist any and all missionary activity, overt and subtle, period.
this is their true test. otherwise their love is fallacious. read the article, yosef hakohen ‘when xn love can hurt us’.
if jewish people or others have read these comments and still don’t see, then you need to do some seroius study and introspection. i’ve dealt first hand with this crap my whole life and will not tolerate one iota of it. i can smell these bastards with their sh-t eating smiles, miles away. i think the jews that go for their okey-doke don’t realize what’s really going on; or they do and their either stupid, naive or on the payroll.
respectfully to ted: israpundit is not a place for support of evangelicals. it’s a place for the truth about israel.
Comment by bugsy — August 18, 2009 @ 7:55 am
Serious error in the article that Jews should know about in order to protect themselves:
Not true. Only a minority of evangelicals reject replacement theology, though the rest doesn’t like that expression and might use other terms for same unbiblical antijudaic idea that the Church either replaced or, more commonly, is continuation of Israel. So when someone is identified as an evangelical, odds are they are against you, not for you, remember that, lest you be deceived by the interfaith movement that should be kicking in shortly.
Also, I would not call anyone “ill-informed” if they perceive “all Evangelicals as missionaries,” but for clarity it would be more correct to say all *true* evangelicals are missionaries, as in we share the gospel.
Bugsy’s advice however is not good, because if one works with professing evangelicals who do not share the gospel, then they quite simply, are fake Christians, fake Bible-believers, who cannot be trusted with what they say about Israel, the kind who will (even if well-intentioned) dupe you into the interfaith approach. With real evangelicals you know their support for Israel will never falter. A better approach would be to know who the real friends of Israel are, accept our support, *but* if you just can’t bear to discuss certain topics, tell us to leave our evangelism (missionizing) at the door & just stick to Zionism.
Comment by soren — August 18, 2009 @ 9:41 am
Where to start with this lot!
Here is exposed why and how the present Judaism will lead the Jews into another Holocaust, for sure.
The positions put forward by Laura, Ted and Joseph are exactly correct. Those of Yamit82 and Bugsy so wrong. They the latter do not have a single clue on political tactics and strategy.
As Joseph says they throw aside the main ally that they have in the struggle against all forms of Imperialism, whether it be democrat or republican, EU or Russian Chinese, though the latter 2 needs a little definition because they too are under direct atack from the US EU “Empire”.
The more I read of Yamit82 the more I see the need to defeat his isolationist and totally non political, pseudo religio approach to things Jewish and Israeli.
As for Bugsby I always think him a fool so no change there.
This is the key isue in politics today and it is a real horror story how Ted Belman allowed Yamit82 the run of Israpundit without any opposition from him as Editor and the man who sets the tone, now it appears he is letting out a little belated squeak of opposition to Yamit82.
Position of Yamit82
Note the use of language here, the evangelicals suddenly become “evangies”
Look closer further down and little lapdog Bugsy copies this dismissive and insulting phrase.
These guys thus are using the personal against their opponents. They fight dirty.
In their reply to me they use terms like “commies” etc.
The problem with these guys is that they do not give respect in their political discussions.
Yamit82 like many in the Judaism movement do not have a political strategy which can arm Jews to fight against their enemey.
No more than they did in the period leading to the Holocaust.
What more can I say. Belman begins to try to snuggle up close to the republican imperialists of America, ONCE AGAIN, note his political prostration in front of this political excrescence (republican party) in his recent article on Palin.
And he who he has promoted without fail over 4 years, Yamit82, now turns into a huge liability for Jews in his insults to the Christians of America who support Israel.
And what if these Christians do try to make Christians out of Jews.
Is that not how it has been and how it should be, a free interplay of ideas.
Are the ideas of Judaism not strong enough to withstand such a campaign.
If they are not strong enough then of course they deserve to go down.
But this is NOT about evangelizing at all. That is really a cover that Yamit82 uses to disguise his reactionary lack of strategy type politics.
The high point of Yamit82 was to call for Obama to be elected, on the basis that this would break Jews from support for America.
Anybody who knows, this is as close as can be to the anarchism of Bakunin.
Against Yamit82 I and my organization call for a United Front to oppose the creation of a Palestine state and to stop the enemies of Israel, such as Iran, getting nuclear bomb power into their inventory.
And all who stand on that programme must fight together against the Obama regime.
Of course anti Trotskyists like Ed cannot face up to the implications of that call. This ignorant man could never admit that Trotskyism could ever be right!
This is why this discussion is reactionary and out of place, far better to get out and unite with the Christians of America who represent the best traditions of the American Revolution, fight for support for the Z strett demo in October, fight to rally the US people against Islam.
And tell Yamit82 may the best ideas in this struggle win.
Comment by Felix Quigley — August 18, 2009 @ 1:28 pm
Felix I don’t pretend to know what this is all about and having said that I can see where Yamit is coming from.
Yamit is true to his faith and he knows the survival of Israel will come about when all Jews follow their faith and believe G-d led the Jews back to their home, Israel.
He was a victim of his government giving into outside pressure to abandon the land he occupied, his home being demoloshed. He now sees this government wiggling in the wind from again outside pressure from of all people a U.S. Muslim president.
G-d provided this land for the Jews and it’s upsetting to see left wing politians carving it up for Arabs who hate them.
.
This I find troubling. As a student of the Catholic education system we were never taught or the good nuns never suggested in any fashion to convert Jews.
We understood missionary work was to bring G-d to people who didn’t have any faith or have G-d in their lives.
Jews do not fit this discription.
Comment by rongrand — August 18, 2009 @ 1:54 pm
I think soren is referring to Dispensationalism, which is an interpretive or narrative framework for understanding the overall flow of the Bible. It perceives the biblical description of God’s manner of dealing with mankind to fall into seven epochs known as dispensations:
1. of innocence (Gen 1:1–3:7), prior to Adam’s fall;
2. of conscience (Gen 3:8–8:22), Adam to Noah;
3. of government (Gen 9:1–11:32), Noah to Abraham;
4. of patriarchal rule (Gen 12:1–Exod 19:25), Abraham to Moses;
5. of the Mosaic Law (Exod 20:1–Acts 2:4), Moses to Jesus;
6. of grace (Acts 2:4–Rev 20:3), the current church age; and
7. of a literal, earthly 1,000-year Millennial Kingdom that has yet to come (Rev 20:4–20:6)
A natural misunderstanding of Dispensationalism sees the covenant of Sinai (dispensation ) to have been replaced by the gospel (dispensation ). However, Dispensationalists believe that ethnic Israel, distinct from the church, and on the basis of the Sinai covenant, are featured in New Testament promises, which they interpret as referring to a future time associated with the Millennium of Revelation 20 (dispensation ). In Dispensational thought, although the time from Jesus’ resurrection until his return (or the advent of the Millennium) is dominated by the proclamation of the gospel, the Sinai covenant is neither terminated nor replaced, rather it is “quiescent” awaiting a fulfillment at the Millennium (click to expand diagram). This time of Jewish restoration has an especially prominent place within Dispensationalism.
Dispensationalists do not base this view on the New Testament alone, but consider that certain Old Testament prophecies concerning Israel will also be fulfilled in a return to the Promised Land, and ultimately a large-scale conversion of the Jews to Christianity. Those who hold this view often note that the Bible does not promise that every individual Jew will be saved, but that the nation (or family) as a whole will be saved. It will still be up to individuals to accept Jesus as Messiah, but the nation as a whole will be blessed, because many (or most) will do so.
A distinctive feature of the dispensationalist scheme is that it conceives of the church age as primarily an arrangement through which God gathers in the Gentiles, a parenthesis in his dealing with the Jews, instituted due to many first century Jews having rejected the Messiah at his first coming.
* Romans 11:11–12
: “Hence I ask, did they stumble so as to fall? Of course not! But through their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make them jealous. Now if their transgression is enrichment for the world, and if their diminished number is enrichment for the Gentiles, how much more their full number.”
In the dispensationalist view, the Jewish restoration and acceptance of the Messiah will be as a people distinct from the Christian Church. Some believe the church will have actually ceased to exist on the earth at this time, having been removed by a miracle called the Rapture. Most dispensationalists believe that the 144,000 from the tribes of Israel, spoken of in the Book of Revelation, are either the literal or symbolic number of ethnic Jews who will be followers of the Messiah during a Great Tribulation. In the meantime, dispensationalists typically hold that the promise “I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse” (Genesis 12:3) has abiding reference to the Jewish people; and some apply this to the modern, political state of Israel. Such ideas are often used in support of Christian Zionism.
With regard to supersessionism, then, Dispensationalism’s key contribution to the history of Christian interpretation is this view that the fulfillment of God’s covenant with Israel is postponed until the end of history. Traditional Christian interpretation, on the other hand, has seen the fulfillment of the covenant as progressive — starting with the apostles and early Jewish Christians and continuing throughout subsequent history in Messianic Judaism, until finally complete at the return of the Messiah. In either view, individual Jews are anticipated to accept Jesus as Messiah, and not by becoming Gentile Christians first, but directly on the basis of the original promises to ethnic Israel. Neither of these interpretations is, as such, viewing the promises to Israel as either terminated or replaced.
Comment by yamit82 — August 18, 2009 @ 1:57 pm
Joseph Albo, (c. 1380–1444) was a Jewish philosopher and rabbi who lived in Spain during the fifteenth century, known chiefly as the author of Sefer ha-Ikkarim (”Book of Principles”), the classic work on the fundamentals of Judaism.
Fundamental principles and their derived truths
According to Albo, the first of his fundamental root-principles, the belief in the existence of God, embraces the following shorashim, or secondary radicals:
1. God’s unity
2. God’s incorporeality
3. God’s independence of time
4. God’s perfection: in God there can be neither weakness nor other defect.
The second root-principle—the belief in revelation, or the communication of divine instruction by God to man—leads him to derive the following three secondary radicals:
1. The Hebrew prophets are the mediums of God’s revelation
2. The belief in the unique greatness of Moses as a prophet
3. The binding force of the Mosaic law until another shall have been divulged and proclaimed in as public a manner (before six hundred thousand men). No later prophet has, consequently, the right to abrogate the Mosaic dispensation.
According to Albo, therefore, the belief in the Messiah is only a “twig”. It is not necessary to the soundness of the trunk. It is, hence, not an integral part of Judaism. Nor is it true that every law is binding. Though every ordinance has the power of conferring happiness in its observance, it is not true that every law must be observed, or that through the neglect of a part of the law, a Jew would violate the divine covenant or be damned. Observant Jews, however, believe that the Jewish person is divinely obligated to fulfill every applicable commandment.
Albo essentially destroyed the whole basis upon Christian replacement theology is based. A– by stating the principle that since Judaism is a national revelation where the whole nation of Israel stood before mt. Sinai and all 3 million Jews heard G-d speak. The covenant with G-d therefore can only be replaced superseded or amended by a second national revelation in front of the whole nation of Israel. B– That the messiah is not an intrinsic part of Judaism, thereby rendering Christian emphasis on Jesus being the Messiah for Jews a mute theological proposition. The concept of a Messiah Albo proclaimed is not even a twig on the Jewish tree:
Comment by yamit82 — August 18, 2009 @ 2:43 pm
Bugsy,
I believe you are sincere in thinking there is a missionary problem; but I wonder if this is just a fantasy of yours or a real problem.
I confess that I am not familiar with the Orthodox lifestyle, and it culture of fears, etc. I was raised as a Roman Catholic, because that is what my agnostic father agreed to when he married my Catholic mom. I grew up in a very Catholic part of a very Catholic city, far from any Jewish neighborhood of any sort; so I never saw any of the “missionary activity” you seem to be saying goes on continually in those places. Where I grew up, there was no missionary activity of any sort: Even the Jehovah’s Witnessese never came around there, and I don’t remember ever seeing a Mormon.
The first “missionaries” I ever encountered were in California, when I was in the Army. There was a man walking around the streets in downtown Monterey, telling people they needed Jesus. As far as I could see, he wasn’t targeting Jews, nor Catholics nor anyone else so far as I could see. I wasn’t a practicing Catholic at the time, so I had nothing to lose by what the man said, one way or another.
Maybe a year later, I was on weekend leave and happened upon a hippy in a park. I was interested in his lifestyle, and went around with him for a few days. On Sunday morning, I went with him to a black Baptist church. I liked the hippy, and learned quite a bit from him; but he didn’t try to make me a Baptist, and I certainly didn’t become one.
Over the next few years, I encountered several Christians (of the type, I suppose, that you would call “Evangelical”), who enthusiastically shared their faith with me. All of them had undergone dramatic personal conversion experiences: They had all lived lives far from any religion before that conversion; and afterwards, the Bible became the center of their lives. Most of them were “hippy” types, having nothing in common with the “evangelicals” of today. They had simply been running away from God because of their sins; God caught up with them with His forgiveness, and they became His. They were certainly a curious lot, and I found them interesting; but they fit in with all kinds of people with ersatz experiences and lifestyles that I met in those years after getting out of the Army.
Meanwhile, I had my own life to deal with. I obviously wasn’t satisfied with my Catholic upbringing, because I no longer went to a Catholic church — nor to any church, for that matter. I did manage to read much of the Bible, though, as well as the Koran, the Tao, the Kybalion and part of the Bhagavad Gita; and studied Kundalini Yoga a bit to boot. I wasn’t interested in any sort of religion: I was interested in life, and trying to understand it. One night, when I was lost in the forest on a moonless night, I had a heart-to-heart conversation with Hashem; I became convinced of His reality and of the truthfulness of the Bible, and my life changed from that day.
About a week and a half after that experience, I did go and join a Christian commune, and moved in “evangelical” circles for about twenty years, before becoming disenchanted with the movement. Since that time, I confined myself to studying the Bible alone and with friends, and even spent a year attending a Jewish synagogue.
I know about those “Messianics” you talk about. They’re good people. Many of them grew up religious, just as I did; but they fell away when they became adults, just like me. I never ask them about their religious affiliation, whether they go to church or not. Some of them are very observant Jews; they wear tsitsit, eat completeley kosher, observe all the mitzvot and are raising their children Jewish; most are not that way, and many have never been Jews and know virtually nothing about Judaism. I just treat them all as friends. We get together now and then for Oneg Shabbat, sing some Hebrew songs and read the Parashah.
I don’t think you can justly fault me in any of this. To their credit, those people are being friends to me and encouraging me in Godliness. I would gladly have become Jewish in my “synagogue” year, and was even in the conversion program; but the Rabbi and his congregation were suspicious of me because I didn’t have a Jewish wife. Theologically, I’m Jewish! I don’t believe in any Trinity, and I would love to live according to the covenant God made with my Jewish ancestors; but the Jews don’t want me to be one of them, and I have no plans to force myself on them.
Tell me, how have any of these people — the evangelicals or the messianics — attacked Judaism? They certainly aren’t robbing ME of my “soul”! I’m not Jewish! According to you, I don’t even HAVE a soul! And those Jews that move in these circles — Were they religious? For the greater part, I dare say they weren’t: They were like me, aimlessly wandering. If anything, they’ve become much more observant than they were before — and in face, their level of observance appears to be about the same or more than that of the Jews I became acquained with in the synagogue.
I know that some Messianic Jews accept the Trinity. That’s because long before becoming “Messianics”, they were practicing Christians: The Messianics did not lead them to think this way. Most of the Messianics I know, though, do not accept that doctrine. Besides this, there’s an interesting couple I know, who were raised as Christians but fell away as adults; then they had conversion experiences similar to my own, wherein they gave their lives back to God. In their zeal, they became Baptist missionaries, and he studied in seminary and was ordained. Later on, they fell away and were befriended by a Messianic couple, who opened up their home to them on Shabbat. After a while, their family history began to surface and they realized that both of them were actually Jewish! You can’t tell me with an honest heart, that those Messianics did a disservice to this couple. They were Baptists; they were Trinitarians; and now they are monotheistic, practicing Jews.
You have often seen me post that the Jews should be less concerned about Christian missionaries, and more convinced of the wealth of life that God has given the Jews. Nobody who has read the Bible with an open mind, can come away thinking that the Jews do not have a special relationship and special obligations to the Holy One. This is in the Christian Bible, as well as the Jewish Bible. By the same token, though, anyone who reads the Bible ought to see that God is not just the God of the Jews, but of the whole world. The Jews ought to be the ones proselytizing and proclaiming their faith to the world, not trying to live in their own little world and trying to protect themselves from missionaries. I have said this many times, and it bears repeating.
I wish you the best.
Comment by BlandOatmeal — August 18, 2009 @ 5:08 pm
What is to your reckoning present Judaism as opposed to what? Past or future Judaism?
Why am I not surprised you would say this? Now to the best of my recollection, most if not all of those same Zionist Christians are also the most supportive of the Great BogeyMan Imperialistic entity you and we call the USA. All are virulently anti communist and all support the Capitalist system. In short if there is any singular group or defined segment of the American public who represent the exact opposite of your views it is those same Christians. So I see a bit of fuzzy and hypocritical sophistry coming off your keyboard. These Christians are the most fanatical believers in your supernatural deity, maybe in the whole world. You a commie atheist supports these groups? Hard to believe Felix they are your enemy, they are your equivalent to the communist antichrist. You and they have nothing in common. They even to a man and woman supported Americas bombing of Serbia.
If there is a single commentator who by all standards of logic and common sense should be against those Christians it should be you. Or do you hold with the concept of the ends justifying the means? If so very moral and ethical of you commies. Should your proclaimed support for Israel also fall into that same category? I have said so in the past and again I repeat: I think so.
Apparently it is you have need of allies as you by your own admission have none and by your description of just about the whole world have plenty of enemies: everybody. Norland never mention imperialism in any of the above contexts. I doubt he agrees with you here and why inject your own religious doctrine into someone else’s quotes when there wasn’t any?
Bugs you doesn’t it? I am Isolationist but not the type of isolation that your little commie mind might understand. I have many times tried to explain it to you but have always run into that Trotsky red brick wall. You are about as closed minded a jerk who has ever had the temerity and even chutzpa to put down any other commenter when you refuse to debate any issue on the merits facts and truths of your arguments. You preach an undefined doctrine and ideology. But you never debate or argue your position behind them except generalized euphamisism based mostly on false perceptions,and an arrogance of ignorance.
What is you non pseudo approach to things Jewish and Israeli?
I think Bugsy is to much a religious Jew to tell you here what he thinks of you. But I’m not and I think you are one fucked up sick dude.
Your still pissed off that Ted canceled your posting privileges, that was when you dominated this blog with all you inane Trotsky crap. Grow up.
Couldn’t find my reference to the above, show me where and in what context if I did say it
Your not a commie? Was I lying? Did I speak an untruth?
You don’t know what a political discussion is! Respect I think it is you who shows no respect for opinions other than your own. I am at least willing to be convinced and I will defend my positions even with excessive material and facts but I will defend to the best of my limited ability and conceded if bested. You run for the hills rather than debate any point where you know you can;t defend.
I have a political strategy and it is based on thew concept of NO! Now Felix you know we have 3-5 hundred little red buttons that will ensure that we don’t go the route of Europe’s Jews. It’s you amigo living in Spain that is most at risk. We have a long overdue accounting with Spain.
Thanks Felix but you know I am not influential here or anyplace else in the cosmic sphere of things. What the principled difference between being condescending to Christians and others doing the same to Muslims? My opinions might be construed to be offensive to some and not to others but Yours I believe are offensive to almost all.
Felix you can’t have it both way criticize me and others for stating our opinions and then seek to defend the position of free debate of ideas. The ideas of Judaism are certainly strong enough but I am afraid many of our Jews are not so strong. When there is a threat, you had better learn to defend and then attack when necessary and we are being threatened. no Felix the way it’s always been is Jews dying for their beliefs or succumbing to external pressure and superior force. When we say never again we mean it and you could even be at ground zero some day. If the Muslims don’t get you we Jews might. It’s not personal. G-d’s judgments tend to be collective. Controlled anarchy is very Jewish concept we were ruled about 500 years under an anarchical system under the Biblical judges. It worked as well or better than any other system before or since.
Why against yamit82 I am for denying Iran the bomb but I also think it’s too late.
Good I am glad you are volunteering to become a suicide bomb. We can have you and all willing Trotskites inside of Iran in a Jiffy to do your stuff
I am sure he could if it were right; but lets face it you are an anachronism. Communism in any form is as dead as the DODO. So is socialism it’s just that the doctor has delayed issuing his certificate of Death!
Felix your ranting and mostly about stupid rubbish. The only thing you liked about our American revolution is that we killed a lot of the English and beat them. Something the Irish couldn’t do.
The fight against Islam is complex and it shouldn’t have become our fight as it is really between to large religions that ea seek world hegemony. We are pawn for both sides and we should figure a way of extricating us from the conflict and of being anybodys pawn.
No felix the last man stranding wins.
Comment by yamit82 — August 18, 2009 @ 5:24 pm
Not unexpectedly this debate might just as well have taken place in a nuthouse.
To bugsy and yamit:
You are rightly concerned about missionizing, but you have gotten the proportions wrong. Over the past 200 years, approximately 200 Jews may have been converted to Christianity by Christian missionaries. No more! The so called Messianics do in fact convert themselves.
Over the same 200 years the missionizing followers of Moses Hess and his pupil, Karl Marx, have converted tens of millions of Jews from Judaism to secular Marxism, Leninism, Bolshevism, Trotskyism, Atheism and other sinful -isms. In addition, at least 200 million Christians have likewise been converted to these secular evil by these missionaries.
It is a pity that the combined effect of pressure upon Israel from left wing former Jews and former Christians (now counting nearly half a billion), is threatening to sink Israel and the remaining Jewry, but you should at least admit that this threat does not come from, or originate in Christianity. It threatens Christianity at least as much as it threatens Jewry.
The result of this secularization of Judaism and Christianity is the now rapidly spreading islamization of Europe and America. That will eventually kill us all. Any allance to stop it should be welcomed.
Comment by Per — August 18, 2009 @ 8:57 pm
Hess recanted and returned to the Jewish fold and wrote Rome and Jerusalem. He predated Hertzl in mapping out a modern Zionist platform and ideology. Marx may have been born Jewish as Trotsky but they did not represent Judaism or most Jews any more than as you have claimed that the Nazis were not true Christians. I don’t see the comparison between real religions, especially those religions centered on revelation. You could make the same claim about liberalism or progressivism, even nihilism. Even non observant Jews have always become involved in Tikun Olam even when they choose the wrong paths and ideas. It’s part of the Jewish DNA.
I agree that the total number of Jews converted to Christianity in the Past 200 years has not been great and more Jews have gravitated to eastern religions and philosophies than Christianity but that has been in the past. In the last ten years The numbers are beginning to get noticed and felt, mainly through the subterfuge groups like Jews for Jesus and others.
Death after life: missionary targeting of elderly, disabled, and deceased Jewish souls
http://www.jewishisrael.com/profiles/blogs/death-after-life-missionary
CFI sponsors a trip to missionary paradise for Holocaust survivors
Three weeks ago Christian Friends of Israel (CFI) sponsored a luncheon and day trip for Holocaust survivors from Sderot. They took the group to the missionary village of Yad Hashmonah outside of Jerusalem – where the majority of the residents are “ Israelis who believe in Yeshua as the Son of God, as their personal redeemer and as the Messiah of both Jews and Gentiles.”
Jewish Israel recently reported that CFI engages in a number of missionary outreach activities directed at Israeli Jews – specifically new immigrants and the underprivileged. They also provide “home visits” to the “isolated and lonely”.
Just as we value the physical life of a single Jew, we value the Jewish spiritual soul not less.
I am conflicted over joining Christian groups in opposing Islam. For Islam the real Target is the Christian West mainly America but not just. I think that if we were not so identified with the Christian West our conflict with the Arabs might have taken on a different complexion. Right now we in Israel are being used by both sides ea against the other and we shouldn’t have allowed ourselves to be put in such a position. An independent geopolitical stance. The conflict is mostly between Christendom and Islam over world religious domination. The Jews are not into such global ambitions. We will lose no matter who wins between The two largest global religions.. ..
Evangelicals use the term “Judeo-Christian” in the context of scripture and theology. Mainstream Jews think of it as a term to decribe Western values. Some rabbinic authorities censure the use of the term altogether. What happens when the words “values”, “heritage”, or “faith” are tagged on to the end of the JC word? How does it change it’s meaning? Is it a coincidence that “Judeo-Christian” is but a hairsbreadth away from “Judeo-Christianity”. Is there such a thing as a war which pits Judeo-christian culture against Islamo-fascism, or is that just a Fundamentalist Christian invention? With growing Christian influence effecting every facet of Israeli society, are we on the brink of becoming a “Judeo-Christian state”? http://jewishisrael.ning.com/page/the-judeochristian-debate
Current Estimates of the number of Messiancs (Jews proclaiming belief in Jesus) in Israel
“… Christian missionaries have succeeded in converting around 15,000 Jews to Christianity in Israel.”
Rabbi Dov Lifshitz, chairman of the Yad L’Achim quoted in the Jerusalem Post March 23, 2008
There are between 15,000 and 20,000 self-identified “Messianic Jews” currently living in Israel, and more than 130 identified “Messianic Jewish” churches and groups in Israel.”
The Jews for Judaism 2008 statistics
“Messianic Jews who are Israeli citizens have the potential to greatly influence the nation of Israel as a group that is expanding and as of today consists of approximately 15,000 members.”
Mike Decker of the law offices of Yehuda Raveh quoted in Israel Today, September 24, 2007
“Meyers explains that the messianic community, which numbers about 15,000 people in Israel, “sees itself as a legitimate branch of Judaism.”‘
A March 21, 2008 YNET News article quoting Calev Myers - the Chief Counsel of the Jerusalem Institute of Justice
“Although nobody knows for sure how many Messianic Jews live in Israel, it’s believed there are about 120 congregations now and 10,000-15,000 Jewish believers in Jesus.”
Wendy Griffith, Chief News Editor for CBN News, December 26, 2008
“There is a small but growing community of approximately 10,000 Messianic Jews.”
The US State Department 2008 Report on International Religious Freedom
“Hope for Israel seeks to channel funds into the hands of Messianic Jewish (Jews who believe in Jesus) congregations and ministries in Israel that provide humanitarian support for these needy Israelis. There are over 150 Messianic Jewish congregations in Israel…”
Messianic Attorney “Rabbi” Jamie Cowan, Hope For Israel (Lightsource Ministries), Tikvat Israel
Comment by yamit82 — August 19, 2009 @ 12:05 am
well, we seem to have a debate going on here. what i find unfortunate is that those who disagree with me(or quigley who foolishly calls names) have no basis in fact, or, their information is wrong.
to be concise: who wouldn’t trust the experts here? jewsforjudaism.org and yad l’achim.
further, here is a great torah teacher who knows both the history and the mesorah(tradition), and his comments at jpost on leibler’s piece:
87. “The bribe will blind the eyes of the wise” (Deut. 16:19).
Why does the author ignore the reality that the majority of Evangelical Christians are committed to sharing their faith, and that some large Evangelical Christian organizations - such as the Southern Baptists, for example - are funding missionary efforts aimed at Jews? An answer can be found in the Torah which states that “the bribe will blind the eyes of the wise” (Deut. 16:19). The verbal and financial support of these missionary groups for Israel are “bribes” which are causing some Zionist leaders to ignore the spiritual threat which these missionaires pose to the future of our people.
86. The Author Ignores the Sad Reality
Evangelical Christians who have converted to Judaism, as well as Jews who became Evangelical Christians, but returned to their Jewish faith, tell a different story, They remind us that large Evangelical organizations are funding efforts to convert our people to their religion, and it is sad that the author of this article ignores this reality. In fact, the comments to this article praising the author from Jews who converted to Evangelical Christianity serve as evidence that the author is mistaken
in yamit’s several comments he has outlined cogent, accurate and disturbingly true information. doesn’t anybody read these?
remember ‘cool hand luke’? what we have here, is a failure to communicate. many seem to hold fast to their opinions and refuse to examine the facts.
the only people i trust on this are the real rabbis and torah scholars who know the length, breadth and depth of the problem. i urge the commenters and particularly ted, whose blog i really appreciate, to soberly consider the facts.
Comment by bugsy — August 19, 2009 @ 2:18 am
important note: most of the comments on leibler’s jpost piece support my and yamit’s view on this.
Comment by bugsy — August 19, 2009 @ 10:25 am
What does the G-d of Israel have to say about this subject:
you shall not show favoritism, and you shall not take a bribe, for bribery blinds the eyes of the wise and perverts just words
Devarim - Deuteronomy - Chapter 16:19
You shall not follow the majority for evil
Shemot - Exodus - Chapter 23:2
You shall commit no injustice in judgment; you shall not favor a poor person or respect a great man; you shall judge your fellow with righteousness. Vayikra - Leviticus - Chapter 19:15
For the Lord, your God, is God of gods and the Lord of the lords, the great mighty and awesome God, Who will show no favor, nor will He take a bribe Devarim - Deuteronomy - Chapter 10:17
8. You shall not accept a bribe, for a bribe will blind the clear sighted and corrupt words that are right.
Shemot - Exodus - Chapter 23:8
23. He will take a bribe from a wicked man’s bosom, to pervert the roads of justice. Proverbs 17: 23-24
Comment by yamit82 — August 19, 2009 @ 11:32 am
Live From the Temple Mount
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/132745
Why don’t Jews proselytize?
Comment by yamit82 — August 19, 2009 @ 1:02 pm
Start here. Read through the entire page. Once you’ve done that, note the signatores listed at the end. I’ll give you an example:
Stephen Strang ( Evangelicals assert their right to evangelise Jews):
http://www.churchtimes.co.uk/content.asp?id=54600
is listed as the publisher of Charisma Magazine. He’s also a CUFI director and, specifically, he’s Hagee’s publisher.
Have you bothered connecting the dots ever? Here’s another small example: The Cyrus Fund. It is run by Jim Hutchens. The Cyrus Fund also works with Living Word Missions.
http://www.tjci.org/projects/CyrusFund.htm ( they want to flood Israel with Christians posing as Jews under the Law of Return) The Medinas who run the operation also run the Holy Spirit Torrents Church. Read it all carefully and be aware of the fact that so much of the missionary activity down south in the Negev all comes through these groups. Of course, there’s one important fact I left for last: Jim Hutchens is a CUFI director as well.
There’s lost more. Do some homework. It gets much worse. There all over the place here in Israel and the problem is growing exponentionally.
Wake up Jews! Did you really think they liked us for what we are?! How many 1000s of Neshamot will be snuffed out because of our naivety?!
Comment by Shy Guy — May 5, 2008 @ 9:19 am
Comment by yamit82 — August 19, 2009 @ 2:55 pm
NOW THE BOMB!!!!
FROM ONE HONEST CHRISTIAN
http://www.israelsdestiny.com/Evangelicals_Who_Support_Israe.cfm
By Pastor Kenneth W. Rawson
As a Christian minister dedicated to encouraging the Jewish people around the world to cherish their Jewish roots and not convert to the churches, I feel compelled to enter the debate over the Evangelical Christian Zionists. Evangelical Zionists deliver massive political clout for Israel in Washington and millions of dollars for Israeli causes. Why?
Its argued they give non-theological reasons for their ardent support of Israel. Does anyone really think they would openly admit their primary reason—their belief that Jesus returns to a Christian Israel? Some Jewish leaders insist Evangelicals are only seeking God’s promise of a blessing to those that bless the descendants of Abraham.
As a Christian I appreciate this blessing, but I find it impossible to believe that Christians are donating millions of dollars to Jewish causes simply to attain a degree of blessing unattainable within their own Christian religion. Can Jewish leaders be this naïve?
To the Evangelical Zionists the prophetic rebirth of the Israeli State was the most dynamic event in the church’s history—a sure sign that Jesus will return in their lifetime. Effervescing with excitement, they will do anything to keep this prophetic sign alive.
Nothing Must Interfere
A Palestinian State in the heartland of Israel—Samaria and Judea or Arabs becoming a majority in Israel during the next 10 years would dampen this jubilant expectation. Such setbacks must be prevented. Leveraging massive political pressure on Washington to oppose a Palestinian State, donating millions to fly Jewish immigrants to Israel to assure a Jewish majority, strengthening the West Bank settlements—all these are musts. Nothing can interfere with their urgent anticipation of Jesus’ return.
Unfortunately their ardor does not and will not stop here. The Biblical interpretation of most Evangelical Zionists demands a Christian Israel before Jesus can return. In fact, they believe two-thirds of the Israelis will be killed and damned eternally while only one-third will convert and escape damnation. This is well publicized in the Evangelical bestseller book series, LEFT BEHIND.
Here is the problem. Who is going to convert these Israelis? Often Evangelicals shout – “We love Israel!” These Evangelicals hope to gradually love Jews to death—their death as Jews when they convert. They hope their generosity and support—continual acts of Christian love—will wear down Israeli resistance. They call this “provoking Jews to jealousy by acts of love to convert.” Rabbi Michael Skobac of Jews for Judaism calls it “‘making nice’ to lubricate the conversion process.” Ironically, these evangelicals expect the Orthodox settlers, upon whom they are showering tens of thousands of dollars, to be the best candidates for conversion.
Meanwhile the majority of the Evangelical Zionists also give much of the over “fifty million dollars” annually donated to “Jews for Jesus,” “Messianic Jews” and to other missionary groups that are targeting the Jewish people around the world – especially in the former Soviet Union. What are the results? Christians for Israel though their Exobus Project assist Ukrainian Jews immigrating to Israel. Of course they share “the love of Jesus” with their Jewish passengers. A Messianic campaign in Odessa converted 30,000 Jews to Christ. Now many of them are boarding Christians for Israel buses on the way to Israel where they become “one on one” missionaries. (The Jewish Voice, Englewood, NJ)
What about Evangelical Zionist organizations in Israel like the “International Christian Embassy” and “Bridges For Peace”? “They have a missionary agenda” according to Mark Powers, US Director of Magen, an international counter-missionary operation. Obviously, the over 100 Messianic Synagogues in Israel have a missionary agenda—many are financed by Evangelicals in the US. Christian Friends of Israel-USA, an avid financial supporter of the West Bank settlements, has a website linked to King of Kings Assemblies, a major Messianic Synagogue operation in Israel. Why?
But how do Evangelical Zionists react to Jews who counter missionaries targeting the Jewish people. Evangelicals enjoyed Rabbi Tovia Singer’s right wing views about
Israel—broadcasted on WMCA, “New York’s Christian Radio.” Why did the station cancel Singer’s show? He is involved in countering Christian missionary efforts targeting Jews. Evangelical Zionists do have a missionary agenda and they are irate when a Christian or Jew opposes their missionary agenda. I know.
Jen Willem van der Hoeven, a highly regarded Evangelical Christian in Israel, maintains converting Jews is anti-Christian. Yet Hoeven told The New York Times that Jews converted by his people “remained faithful to their roots and to Israel.” I guess with the backing of notables like Morton Klien and Bi Bi Netanyahu this double talk is somehow not converting Jews even though these Jews did convert to Jesus.
An equation of tolerance seems to be developing. How much converting is tolerable by individuals or Christian groups compared to their great efforts in supporting the State of Israel? I find it difficult to accept that Jewish leaders who ardently extol these Evangelical Zionists are totally unaware of their missionary work.
Perhaps the Jewish leaders are not so naïve. Maybe they are just playing the game. In view of church history, take their money but don’t feel the least bit ingratiated. Nevertheless this is a dangerous game.
They are pressing their conversion agenda. There are evangelical tour groups trained to disarm, and then convert Israelis. Evangelicals have ingratiated themselves into Israeli communities. In Ariel an Evangelical friend of the mayor is conducting a covert missionary operation with a vision to multiply this operation throughout Israel. Christian Jews from the Ukraine, Argentina and elsewhere are immigrating to Israel. Israel is becoming honeycombed with “one on one” missionaries and home churches. Israelis wake up!
Tipping Their Hand
Comment by yamit82 — August 19, 2009 @ 3:24 pm
additional comments by the torah scholar, posted at jpost under leibler’s piece:
99. God will vindicate the Jewish people and their faith!
The Southern Baptists and some other large Evangelical organizations are attempting to convert Jews, and they imagine that in the End of Days, Jews will come to the Christians and say, “Let us go with you.” They are mistaken, for regarding this period, it is written in our Sacred Scriptures: “In those days it will happen that ten men, of all the languages of the nations, will take hold; they will take hold of the corner of a garment of a Jewish man, saying, ‘Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you’ ” (Zechariah 8:23). Yes, God will vindicate the Jews and their faith!
In Response to Christian Insults of our People and our Faith
Love without respect is not true love. Christians who do not respect our people and our faith cannot claim to love us. For example, a recent comment by a Christian refers to us as a “stiff-necked people” because we do not deify Jesus and accept him as the promised Messiah. This is because we are forbidden to worship a human being as God. In addition, we recognize that when the Messiah arrives, he will inaugurate an era of universal peace and enlightenment; moreover, he will gather in the exiles of Israel (see Chapter 11 of Isaiah). Jesus did not fulfill these prophecies.
Comment by bugsy — August 19, 2009 @ 3:53 pm
per
http://www.israelsdestiny.com/This_Christians_Apology%20.cfm
The 20th Century witnessed the Holocaust and now decades later, anti-Semitism is still very much alive. To combat anti-Semitism and Holocaust revisionism, my associates and I have waged a campaign in the secular press and college newspapers—placing editorial ads and op-ed articles. As much as I am grieved by the forced assimilation of the past, Christian missionaries targeting the Jewish people disturb me.
Personally I believe Islam is a more containable threat to us than Christianity. Most Jews harbor few illusions re: Islam but Christians who profess unbridled love and hundreds of millions of dollars is tougher to combat especially when so many naive Jews seem to have been taken in by their insidious methods.
MAGEN: Counter Missionary Force Fights Soul Snatchers
http://lubavitch.com/news/article/2014691/MAGEN-Counter-Missionary-Force-Fights-Soul-Snatchers.html
Comment by yamit82 — August 19, 2009 @ 3:56 pm
yamit, the reason we don’t proselytize is that our goal( (HaShem’s goal) is not that the whole world be jewish. it says several times, particularly where H’ refers to us as an ‘am s’gulah’, a treasured nation, that a specific reason for our position as am kohanim is not because of our numbers. torah scholars i’ve spoken to and what i’ve read indicates that we are supposed to do our best to be an example for others. our purpose as an am kohanim is to serve H’ and the people.
one thing this dialogue in israpundit’s comments section shows is that many people, unfortunately, don’t read and process things. they often simply listen only to their own opinions and can’t be ‘bothered with the facts’. one would hope that if xns really respected jews they would defer to rabbis and torah scholars. ah, but this is the time we live in.
my hope is that the jewish readers of this site and elsewhere will not be swayed by the harmful inaccuracy of leibler’s piece. the opportunity for the jewish people and for any understanding others is that we must strengthen the torah of the jewish people. the stronger we are in torah the less of a problem this is because we can see clearly.
Comment by bugsy — August 19, 2009 @ 4:01 pm
Bugsy; there are rabbis and then there are Rabbis. In all matters of Halalcha always ask for the rav’s authority. That will at least separate rabbi from Rabbi.
Example: In another of his ignominious rulings, Rabbi Haim Druckman, head of Bnei Akiva yeshivas, commanded the residents to vacate Bnei Adam outpost.
According to Rabbi Druckman, the agreement between the treacherous Council of Settlements and IDF takes precedence over the commandment which forbids us to abandon any part of the Land of Israel.
In the Sinai and Gaza evacuations, Rabbi Druckman ordered his followers to obey the government’s orders and vacate the Jewish villages.
Rabbi Meir Kahane wrote about Yamit: http://kahane.hameir.org/content/view/106/9/
For two of the leading rabbis of the Stop the Retreat Movement, alleged “hawks” Rabbi Moshe Tzvi Nerya, head of yeshivot Bnei Akiva and Rabbi Chaim Druckman, had ruled that a religious soldier who was ordered to remove settlers must do so, despite the fact that the evacuation was contrary to halacha. The ruling, so clearly contrary to the clear ruling in the Talmud (Sanhedrin 49) and Maimonides (ibid.), led Yamit Rabbi Yisrael Ariel to run to Rabbi Nerya, who had been his rabbi at Kfar Haroeh, and to ask him for his halachic source. Rabbi Ariel, two weeks ago, pleaded with soldiers standing at the roadblocks to disobey orders to remove settlers. His words, based on the above-mentioned halacha, led to demands by leftists for his arrest. His consolation was that he stood by the Torah ruling. Now, with the incredible stand taken by Rabbis Nerya and Druckman, he looked wan and weary as he sat in his home and told me of a threat by a famous rabbi that he would ask that Rabbi Ariel be arrested!
A Biblical Lesson for the Jews of Today:
Genocide by the humble
By Obadiah Shoher. Samson Blinded
The last thing Moses was commanded to do before retiring from this world was to exterminate the Midianites. Hebrew relations with the Midians were uneasy: Moses took a wife from among them and recorded Jewish laws on the advice of his father-in-law, a pagan priest. The Jewish attitude toward the Midian wife, Zipporah, was negative: Moses had to send her away before embarking on the Exodus mission. Likewise, Moses’ family rejected his other wife, a Nubian. His children by Zipporah did not inherit his authority and do not figure prominently in the Tanakhic chronicles. Even converted gentile women were not good enough for Jewish leaders.
There was a continuous intermingling between Jews and Midians. Some Midians lived among Jews and were so intimate that Moses refused to let them go, lest they reveal significant military information to enemies. Many Jewish men had relations with Midian women, prompting Pinchas to assassinate one of them along with his Midian wife. Pinchas’ action, the murder of a nice interfaith family, earned him eternal blessing from God himself.
genocide of Midians by humble Moses
The genocide of the Midians is traditionally thought to be Moses’ last earthly assignment, though “you would join your peoples” can be taken literally as a permission to leave the Israelites. Whatever the case, why were the Midians singled out for prosecution? By this time, Jews had plenty of violent enemies, and the Midians were friendly to the point of readiness to intermingle. It is this intermingling that the Jews were commanded to avenge. Not surprisingly, the genocide was made Moses’ business: he had started interfaith relations with Midians by marrying Zipporah, and he had to expiate his sin by killing his unsuspecting relatives. The sin of interfaith marriage was great: when Moses did not abandon his pagan wife immediately after hearing God speaking from the burning bush, God sought to kill him in desert, and savvy Zipporah averted divine wrath by circumcising their child.
Hebrews, a deeply polygamous society, inherently lacked enough Jewish wives and therefore often intermarried. Like Moses, many Hebrews had married Midianites. The solution was found in genocide: once all other Midianites were exterminated, those who had married Jews automatically became rootless and honestly embraced Jewishness as their only possible identity.
The transgression was Jewish, so why kill the Midians? Here lies a concept of immense importance for modern Israel: God doesn’t expect Jews to be perfect. Other nations are exterminated for their transgressions, but not Jews. The Torah is explicit that the Canaanites lost their land because of their transgressions, but Jews would return there after having been dispersed. The Exile has ended and Israel reestablished not because of Jews’ merits—we don’t merit that much—but only because God has a purpose for Jews. We’re his instrument, experimental mice if you wish. He realizes his divine plans through us. Whatever happens to our enemies is not for our sake, but for his. On that, I believe, Satmar is wrong: even ruled by crooks and socialists, Israel is not an accident, but a part of the divine plan laid out in prophecies.
Back to the expedition against the Midians. It was so important that even Levites joined it. The participation of Levites indicates that the affair was a slam-dunk one—Hebrews did not normally risk their priests. The fighting was lopsided: the Jews numbered more than 600,000 males, but thought it enough to send just a 12,000-strong mob against the Midians. Not a single Jew was killed in the expedition, but among the prisoners were 32,000 virgins. Evidently, the Midians were a large and peaceful nation exterminated by the Jews on God’s order. As if the genocide was not enough, Moses lashed out against the Jews: “How dare you to leave all women alive?… Now kill all the male children, and every woman who knew a husband.”
Still, the Torah calls Moses “the humblest man.” Could a humble man preside over genocide? The answer is a definite yes.
. A tremendous erosion of the concept took place afterward: Jewish humility came to mean submission to people, even down to enemies and oppressors. Whatever his own views, Moses entirely accepted God’s definition of morality. Divine decrees set the standard of morality, and anything God told him to do was moral by definition. Even genocide was moral when perpetrated on divine orders.
Modern Jews should not shrink from the explicit commandment to cleanse the land God gave us of its hostile inhabitants.
Comment by yamit82 — August 19, 2009 @ 5:36 pm
A reply to Isi Leibler from Jewish Israel. Addressed to the Ted Belmans of the Jewish world just the same.
Comment by Shy Guy — August 19, 2009 @ 8:02 pm
yamit, it was implicit when i said ‘rabbis and torah scholars’ that it meant people who maintain the integrity of the torah, which is the majority bezH.
re ’samson blinded’, there are serious errors in this man’s words. for example, his tone about pinchas murdering ‘a nice interfaith family’ is ridiculously false. there was a plague where 24,000 men died due to the temptations of the midianite women. pinchas was a hero who stopped the plague by killing kozbi and zimri who were flagrantly violating the torah by cohabiting in a tent near the mishkan. moses was so overwrought he just wept. from this and the other statements i don’t think the author of this fiction can be trusted with any midrash. i’m surprised you cited it.
re ‘even genocide was moral when perpetrated on divine orders’. the language here distorts the depth and meaning of what transpired. it makes moses sound like some crazy extremist, ch’v. this is no way the truth.
this involves matters of gilgul and the necessity to ‘cleanse the land; , it is a very involved subject which i think you know. cf ‘this land is my land–a breslov pespective on the arab-israeli conflict’ by chaim kramer. excellent source for the overall history from creation to now.
your point about the true nature of humility: it’s not passive and weak, is correct. and jews today do need to understand it
as an esteemed torah teacher says…if and when we all keep the torah properly then H’ will take care of everything else, and we will be guided on how to proceed. this is the main problem in israel today; a spiritual one. and, this is not a new story. but, as we know, H’ is in control and we must do the best we can to strengthen torah among israel!
Comment by bugsy — August 19, 2009 @ 11:27 pm
Bugsy, any connection between the author of Samson Blinded and Torah true Judaism is purely coincidental.
Comment by Shy Guy — August 20, 2009 @ 7:51 am
I used his somewhat unorthodox opinion to point out that Jewish thought has evolved and our view of things differs sometimes in the extreme from the original intent and purpose of the Torahs message to us us. Then I posted to emphasize the last part of Samson wrote:
and that our and many of our sages opinions were and are colored by the time and the influences of foreign cultures. While I agree with Shy that Samson is not a Torah scholar and many if not most of his opinions differ from traditionally accepted reading and interpretations by Jewish Halachic authorities, still I find many of his ideas and opinions not only interesting but sometimes even convincing.
Check out these Jewish great and influential thinkers. They still continue in many ways to influence Jewish thought.
“Or Adonai” The Light of the Lord, is the primary work of Rabbi Hasdai Crescas (c. 1340 - 1410/1411),
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Or_Adonai
Joseph Albo (c. 1380–1444) was a Jewish philosopher and rabbi who lived in Spain during the fifteenth century, known chiefly as the author of Sefer ha-Ikkarim (”Book of Principles”), the classic work on the fundamentals of Judaism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Albo
Both were in opposition to the Rambam and in many ways I tend to agree.
Re: Pinchas
“And Pinchas saw,” says verse 25:7, “arose from the congregation, and took a spear in his hand.”
The Talmud (Sanhedrin 82a) explains that Pinchas saw the act and was reminded of a law that Moses had already taught—a law that the others had forgotten or didn’t have the courage to act upon. He said to Moses, “I learned from you, ‘When a Jewish man cohabits with a heathen woman, zealots have the right to strike him dead [while he's in the midst of the act].’”
“Let the one who reads the letter be the agent to carry it out,” Moses replied.
Immediately, “he took a spear in his hand…went after the Israelite man…drove it through both of them; the Israelite man, and the woman through her stomach, and the plague ceased from the children of Israel.”
Pinchas did not take the law into his own hands. He followed the teaching exactly as Moses had previously conveyed it from the Almighty.
Pinchas was, in fact, a hero. There are times when, though we know what’s right, we don’t have the guts to live up to our values—especially if it comes at the cost of being mocked by the entire community. Pinchas, a “nobody” up until this point, actually put his life in danger by killing a prince. Zimri was supported by his entire tribe, and they could have easily killed Pinchas (and would have, if not for a sequence of miracles that occurred, as detailed in the Talmud). But Pinchas was not deterred by the danger. What concerned him was the danger facing his people, and he was willing to risk his life to eliminate the threat.
Nobody would have criticized him had he let the situation pass. On the contrary, he provoked much criticism for his deed, and was very nearly ostracized.
What makes this different than fundamentalism? Fundamentalists impose their religion on people who haven’t had the same “vision” has they have. The Israelites did not deny that they had all heard the instructions from G?d at Sinai.
And Fundamentalists act out of hate for anyone who doesn’t share their belief. Pinchas acted out of a love for a nation that was suffering a deadly plague.
This was the essence and the message of Pinchas.
Interesting it melds with the concept of Albo in that he postulates that Jews need not observe all of the Mitzvot to be a good Jew.
How many Laws are ignored by all rabbis? or their intent changed and modified over time? The Lesson of Pinchas is just one.
Comment by yamit82 — August 20, 2009 @ 11:14 am
Yamit, listen I really don’t know where any of this dialogue takes us or where we want to go with it.
I do know you are a Jew who loves his faith and lives it. You feel it’s important that since Israel is a Jewish Nation her children should also live in the faith likewise. I tend to agree with you.
I believe the Torah, the word of G-d teaches respect for one another. Likewise the Bible the word of God teaches Catholics and other Christian denominations the same.
I don’t feel it’s necessary to try to convert anyone who firmly believes in G-d/God and lives by his or her faith.
Missionary work should be directed to those who don’t have G-d/God in their lives and are longing for Him.
I believe that Jews, Catholic, Protestants should stand shoulder to shoulder in seeking peace for the people of Israel our brothers and sisters all children of G-d/God. This is the land G-d provided for His people and it should be protected.
Time has come for the U.S. and other governments to stop funding the Arab world that supports terrorism.
By this funding, especially military aid only aggravates and intensifies terrorism against this Jewish Nation, who is a friend and ally of the free world.
All aid should be cut off from them until they recognize Israel as a Jewish Nation and leave the Holy Land unless they want to live under Israeli law.
If the Arab world wants what is right for their people then for goodness sakes outlaw and clean up the terrorist organization and concentrate on providing a better life for your people and if you behave I am sure you could look to this Jewish Nation for help in developing your countries. They did it with brains and without oil.
Yamit we need you to call out the left in the government.
Comment by rongrand — August 20, 2009 @ 12:44 pm
Rongrand, we long ago understood that you, as an individual, are of the belief you state (again) here in your post.
Unfortunately, you are neither the Pope, nor the acknowledged rebbe of the church of Martin Luther.
You should be posting your suggestions on Christian blogs, especially evangelical ones, where there is no room for your interpretation of the “Great Commission”. You most probably already know what the response to your claim of whom to missionize will be.
It is the Christians who unfortunately, cannot resist spiritually harming Israel while at the same time asking us to join in partnership against the Islamic wave. And as far as that goes, in any case you should know that the only thing that allows Islam to rise is the spiritual fall of Israel. And that’s mainly an in-house message to us Jews. It always has been. Just read the prophets. The keys are all there.
Comment by Shy Guy — August 20, 2009 @ 2:00 pm
ron, Shy is right and I have stated my position many times here. We Jews have no quarrel with Islam, It is Islam ho threatens us. The question is besides doing whatever is necessary to defend ourselves why should Jews in the eyes of our enemy Islam attach ourselves to the coat tails of the west and the Big Satan America.
Now I ask who is funding most of our Islamic enemies past, present and future? Who supplies them with all those modern weapons? Does Egypt have a natural existential enemy to justify them receiving 2 billion a year in the most modern and lethal weapons? The Saudis can’t use or maintain what they buy from the west and America no maintain them. They subcontract everything. But they have become the great Muslim Armory and stockpile weapons to be used by Egypt, Syria and I suppose Jordan should they need them in our coming next war with them. Rumor has it that they also have in stock a few nukes from Pakistan in payment for their funding Pakistan’s nuke program. How seems hell bent to see Iran go nuclear? Who refuses to impose sanctions on Iran? Could it be that America and the west want Iran to go nuclear and to finish Israel off and hope that Israel retaliates, thereby eliminating two of Americas biggest problems in the ME. It will increase the price of oil and America gains control of the world for imposing a one world government and economic system. OUT OF CHAOS COMES ORDER. By allowing Iran and Israel to cancel ea. other out America and Europe can then wring their collective hands in sorrow and deniability of their manipulative foreign policy to attain such an ending?
Without the west funding and supporting half the Muslim and most of the Arab world, they wouldn’t be in a position to threaten anybody. That’s the real problem. Without Arms and western financial support would Islam be a problem to anybody today? The American EU arms buildup of those same countries and regimes who in turn threaten Israel and the west is the crux of the problem not ideological Islam.
The real conflict is between the Christian west and Muslim ME and Muslim Asia, Why should Israel get involved other than self protection? A real arms embargo in the whole of the ME would have brought real peace to the area eons ago. The conflict services other forces in the west other than peace. Greed and antisemitism seem to be the motivating force behind America and EU policies in this region from before the turn of the last century.
Comment by yamit82 — August 20, 2009 @ 2:48 pm
Shy Guy, you better read my comment again. I don’t know where you are coming from.
?????
What does that mean?
All I said:
I
Yamit, I believe you agreed with my comment:
I didn’t mention anything about Islam or the Muslims. I said Arab Terrorist.
All in all I don’t believe I stated anything upsetting to anyone.
Comment by rongrand — August 20, 2009 @ 5:35 pm
Rongrand, I was referring to your belief that “missionary work should be directed to those who don’t have G-d/God in their lives and are longing for Him.”
This is not the standard Christian doctrine, neither of the Roman Catholic church, nor of the majority of the evangelical movement.
My point was that relations would be much improved if you yourself were the head honcho of all the Christians, capable of enacting your beliefs as to whom to missionize to and not.
Comment by Shy Guy — August 20, 2009 @ 5:44 pm
Shy guy, sorry about that.
It’s not just my position. I mentioned a few times I attended both Catholic Elementary and High School and we were taught by the Immaculate Heart of Mary (IHN)nuns and not once did they ever discuss converting any other Christians or Jews to Catholisim. We were taught that you did not have to be a Catholic to be saved as long as you followed your own faith and even those who had no organized religion but believe the sun was God would be saved.
Missionary work was to bring G-d/God to those that had no faith and wanted G-d/God in their lives.
As far as converting Jews, thats where it all began.
Comment by rongrand — August 20, 2009 @ 6:21 pm
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/133005
Comment by yamit82 — August 20, 2009 @ 6:45 pm
So, sun worshippers, who are violating the 2nd of the Ten Commandments (as are Christ worshippers, according to G-d’s Torah), are OK in Christianity’s eyes? This is based on what NT verses? Curious minds want to know.
It never ended. That’s why we’re posting here, remember?
Comment by Shy Guy — August 20, 2009 @ 6:58 pm
Jeremy Gimpel needs to sit down with a Posek well versed in Jewish philosophy and Hilchot Avodah Zarah, play this and other clips of his, and be straightened out. Until then, he shouldn’t be doing this. Thank goodness Tovia Singer is right on the ball.
Comment by Shy Guy — August 20, 2009 @ 7:01 pm
Shy Guy, before we get carried away. Listen the following:
This was an attempt to state even natives who without any education or teachings to follow figured there was a superior being may have looked to the sun as that superior thing. God would save them mainly because they didn’t know better. What would they know about the commandents of G-d/God?
.
I wasn’t suggesting it ended.
I hope we understand each other.
Comment by rongrand — August 20, 2009 @ 7:21 pm
I agree, even here Tovia is treading a fine line as lots of dollars come in from those organizations. Gimple reminds me of Bugsy at least in his enthusiasm. Not a bad trait just naive and ill informed. A7 pulled a show with Ellen Horowitz but played it over the weekend unannounced and unscheduled. Money corrupts everybody it seems. This seems to be one of the dangers in dealing with them.
Comment by yamit82 — August 20, 2009 @ 7:23 pm
Yamit, I watched the video. Joe asked a legitimate question. The guy on the rignt had it somewhat right while the Rabbi was kinda off base.
First of all I trust most Jews don’t believe Christians (Catholic & Protestants alike) who support Israel have conversion on their minds.
Is is just okay with you that we may feel Jews have the G-d given rights to Israel?
Must there be an ulterior motive to all of this other than just plain seeking justice for the Jews?
Listen I am not about converting Jews to Catholicism and likewise as a practicing Catholic not looking to convert to Judeoism. Having said that I can honestly say I love Jews and not seeking anything but justice for them.
Comment by rongrand — August 20, 2009 @ 7:44 pm
ron it’s the other way around the Rabbi got it right and the kid is living in virtual space above the temple in the background.
Catholics a long time ago have just about ceased missioning to the Jews they just support our enemies, I am talking now about the Vatican. Except for, I think the abortion issue the Vatican is on the side of the radical left and anti Israel side of the conflict and have designs on getting control of Jerusalem and the Temple Mount. That conforms with the still believed Catholic dogma called replacement theology. I think the American church is far more liberal and ecumenical than most other countries especially more liberal than Official Vatican policy.
Comment by yamit82 — August 20, 2009 @ 9:33 pm
Yamit, Vatican should not be concerned. The Jews have control of Jerusalem and the Temple Mount and rightfully so.
All religious sites are assesable and well protected by them
I told you before, having possession of any of these items don’t make us better Catholics.
The problem as I see it along with other Catholics is the Vatican is staffed with too many old stuff shirts.
Comment by rongrand — August 20, 2009 @ 9:46 pm
Regarding the Singer and Gimpel Show:
Comment #48 Shy Guy, I tend to agree with your assessment on the show
Comment #50 Yamit, I know that A7 is very much concerned about the opinions of those Christians who are reading, watching and listening – but they may be a little too concerned. For the record, I don’t know nuthin’ about no money issues between A7 and certain Gentile parties (but there’s a lot I don’t know).
I think the strategy for the show is somewhat Talmudic, with Tovia pushing away with the left hand while Jeremy brings close with the right hand. But according to this formula, the right hand can afford to draw close because it is the hand with the greater strength and agility. So you can understand the problem, as Jeremy doesn’t come across as being solid and grounded. He’s all heart and opinion, and as a result these shows are sending mixed messages, rather than offering clarity and bringing people down to earth on the issues. Tovia seems to be regularly pulling Jeremy from the brink.
That being said, the show is probably very popular. And my “solid” interview was pulled due to a truly controversial title. You can read about it (and hear the show ) on the Jewish Israel blog:
Comment by ellenwriter — August 20, 2009 @ 10:56 pm
So fundamentalist Christians yearn to convert Jews, whereas most Gentiles just want to kill us.
I’ll take the fundamentalist Christians.
Comment by ayn reagan — August 21, 2009 @ 2:46 am
Savvy shoppers will take neither.
Comment by Shy Guy — August 21, 2009 @ 6:01 am
As I was saying………………………….. US Jews protest Catholic document on salvation
Comment by Shy Guy — August 21, 2009 @ 7:18 am
Oy,Ayn! Is that the choice we’ve been given?
That short sentence pretty much trashes the very foundations and principles of the Jewish faith. Are you Jewish?
If you felt the earth move this morning, it was just a lot of Jewish ancestors, sages, martyrs, and saints turning in their graves.
Comment by ellenwriter — August 21, 2009 @ 7:32 am
Well I might have spoke prematurely when I said the the Catholic church was not into proselytizing Jews! #52
That said it reminds me of our past forced medieval disputation. The best response to any Christian claiming replacement theology in any form is the argument put forth by Rabbi Joseph Albo (c.1360-1444). Jewish philosopher who lived in Spain. A student of H?asdai Crescas, he participated in the Tortosa Disputation of 1413-14. Albo was expert in all branches of Jewish thought, biblical, rabbinic, and philosophical. He was also well versed in Islamic philosophy and in Christian scholasticism, particularly through the writings of Thomas Aquinas.
Fundamental principles and their derived truths
According to Albo, the first of his fundamental root-principles, the belief in the existence of God, embraces the following shorashim, or secondary radicals:
1. God’s unity
2. God’s incorporeality
3. God’s independence of time
4. God’s perfection: in God there can be neither weakness nor other defect.
The second root-principle—the belief in revelation, or the communication of divine instruction by God to man—leads him to derive the following three secondary radicals:
1. The Hebrew prophets are the mediums of God’s revelation
2. The belief in the unique greatness of Moses as a prophet
Since judaisam is based on the revelation at Sinai before the WHOLE CONGREGATION 6000,000 males and about 3 million Jews altogether. He postualtes that no replacement covenant is possible unless all the Jewish people are recongregated and hear G-d tell all Jews together that he has changed his mind and given a new covenant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kz3-M9KDrS8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOgimVPKNI4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpCtmtzGl_I&feature=related ALBO
Comment by yamit82 — August 21, 2009 @ 8:38 am
Well I might have spoke prematurely when I said the the Catholic church was not into proselytizing Jews! #52
I agree here with Ellen, This is a big shift.
That said it reminds me of our past forced medieval disputation. The best response to any Christian claiming replacement theology in any form is the argument put forth by Rabbi Joseph Albo (c.1360-1444). Jewish philosopher who lived in Spain. A student of H?asdai Crescas, he participated in the Tortosa Disputation of 1413-14. Albo was expert in all branches of Jewish thought, biblical, rabbinic, and philosophical. He was also well versed in Islamic philosophy and in Christian scholasticism, particularly through the writings of Thomas Aquinas.
Fundamental principles and their derived truths
According to Albo, the first of his fundamental root-principles, the belief in the existence of God, embraces the following shorashim, or secondary radicals:
1. God’s unity
2. God’s incorporeality
3. God’s independence of time
4. God’s perfection: in God there can be neither weakness nor other defect.
The second root-principle—the belief in revelation, or the communication of divine instruction by God to man—leads him to derive the following three secondary radicals:
1. The Hebrew prophets are the mediums of God’s revelation
2. The belief in the unique greatness of Moses as a prophet
Since Judaism is based on the revelation at Sinai before the WHOLE CONGREGATION 6000,000 males and about 3 million Jews altogether. He postulates that no replacement covenant is possible ( unless all the Jewish people are re congregated and hear G-d tell all Jews together that he has changed his mind and given a new covenant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kz3-M9KDrS8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOgimVPKNI4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpCtmtzGl_I&feature=related ALBO
Comment by yamit82 — August 21, 2009 @ 8:51 am
Shy Guy, I believe this reflects the thinking of a majority of Catholics.
We’re with you Guy.
Comment by rongrand — August 21, 2009 @ 11:53 am
Ellenwriter, I guess where I get lost is, can’t there be a relationship between Catholics (including various Protestant denomincations) and Jews without this idea of an ulterior movtive conversion?
Lets have some unconditional love for one another.
Comment by rongrand — August 21, 2009 @ 12:27 pm
Sorry, Rongrand, I don’t buy into John Paul II.
Pope John Paul II and the Jews: An Evaluation
Rongrand, this is your theological leader and the Vatican is the institution you and your coreligionists pledge allegiance to. If you and the “majority of Catholics” choose to disagree with the teachings of the Pope and the Vatican, I have no problem believing you. But what you believe and what the Roman Catholic church hold and advocate are not the same in these matters we’re discussing.
Comment by Shy Guy — August 21, 2009 @ 12:43 pm
Why are you asking us Jews? Ask your coreligionists and especially their leaders. So far the answers we’ve received have either been “sorry, it’s a package deal (but you’ll hardly notice)” or more often we’re just outright lied to.
Some friendship! Did you ever have a “friend” like that?
Again, we are not talking about you, the individual. And again, you are contradicting your religion’s theological doctrines, as understood since Christianity’s inception and confirmed by the various major Christian denominations.
“Now, old woman — you are accused of heresy on three counts — heresy by thought, heresy by word, heresy by deed, and heresy by action — *four* counts. Do you confess?”
Comment by Shy Guy — August 21, 2009 @ 12:58 pm
And there you go!
US Conference of Catholic Bishops: A Note on Ambiguities Contained in Reflections on Covenant and Mission
I will admit that the Roman Catholic church is relatively much more up front, frank and honest than the vast majority of the evangelical ministries and organizations, with reference to their intent to missionize the Jews.
Comment by Shy Guy — August 21, 2009 @ 1:07 pm
More evidence that the Jewish sickness of believing only what they want to believe and ignoring the facts and truth is still with us. This disease of Jewish self delusion is responsible for the deaths of millions of Jews throughout our history, yet as in most things Jews revere our past but generally don’t study it nor learn from it.
Comment by yamit82 — August 21, 2009 @ 1:40 pm
There’s a slight difference. Imagine Woody Hayes punching the Clemson player every day several times, including yesterday, today and tomorrow.
Comment by Shy Guy — August 21, 2009 @ 2:12 pm
Another relevant recent example of this: ‘Vatican to stop missionizing Jews’. The JPost article’s main claim was without any foundation whatsoever.
Comment by Shy Guy — August 21, 2009 @ 2:17 pm
Persecution of Jews by Roman Pagans:
70: The Roman Army destroyed Jerusalem, killed over 1 million Jews, took about 100,000 into slavery and captivity, and scattered many from Palestine to other locations in the Roman Empire.
113: Jews in Cyprus, Cyrene, Egypt and Mesopotamia revolted against the Roman Empire. This caused “the death of several hundreds of thousands of Romans and Jews.” 1
132: Bar Kochba led a hopeless three-year revolt against the Roman Empire. Many Jews had accepted him as the Messiah. About a half-million Jews were killed; thousands were sold into slavery or taken into captivity. The rest were exiled from Palestine and scattered throughout the known world, adding to what is now called the “Diaspora.” Judaism was no longer recognized as a legal religion. 2
135: Serious Roman persecution of the Jews began. They were forbidden, upon pain of death, from practicing circumcision, reading the Torah, eating unleavened bread at Passover, etc. A temple dedicated to the Roman pagan god Jupiter was erected on temple mountain in Jerusalem. A temple of Venus was built on Golgotha, just outside the city.
200: Roman Emperor Severus forbade religious conversions to Judaism.
Persecution of Jews by Christians:
Initial persecution of Jews was along religious lines. Persecution would cease if the person converted to Christianity.
306: The church Synod of Elvira banned marriages, sexual intercourse and community contacts between Christians and Jews. 3,4
315: Constantine published the Edict of Milan which extended religious tolerance to Christians. Jews lost many rights with this edict. They were no longer permitted to live in Jerusalem, or to proselytize.
325: The Council of Nicea decided to separate the celebration of Easter from the Jewish Passover. They stated: “For it is unbecoming beyond measure that on this holiest of festivals we should follow the customs of the Jews. Henceforth let us have nothing in common with this odious people…We ought not, therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews…our worship follows a…more convenient course…we desire dearest brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the Jews…How, then, could we follow these Jews, who are almost certainly blinded.”
337: Christian Emperor Constantius created a law which made the marriage of a Jewish man to a Christian punishable by death.
339: Converting to Judaism became a criminal offense.
343-381: The Laodicean Synod approved Cannon XXXVIII: “It is not lawful [for Christians] to receive unleavened bread from the Jews, nor to be partakers of their impiety.” 5
367 - 376: St. Hilary of Poitiers referred to Jews as a perverse people who God has cursed forever. St. Ephroem refers to synagogues as brothels.
379-395: Emperor Theodosius the Great permitted the destruction of synagogues if it served a religious purpose. Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire at this time.
380: The bishop of Milan was responsible for the burning of a synagogue; he referred to it as “an act pleasing to God.”
415: The Bishop of Alexandria, St. Cyril, expelled the Jews from that Egyptian city.
415: St. Augustine wrote “The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus.”
418: St. Jerome, who created the Vulgate translation of the Bible wrote of a synagogue: “If you call it a brothel, a den of vice, the Devil’s refuge, Satan’s fortress, a place to deprave the soul, an abyss of every conceivable disaster or whatever you will, you are still saying less than it deserves.”
489 - 519: Christian mobs destroyed the synagogues in Antioch, Daphne (near Antioch) and Ravenna.
528: Emperor Justinian (527-564) passed the Justinian Code. It prohibited Jews from building synagogues, reading the Bible in Hebrew, assemble in public, celebrate Passover before Easter, and testify against Christians in court. 3
535: The “Synod of Claremont decreed that Jews could not hold public office or have authority over Christians.” 3
538: The 3rd and 4th Councils of Orleans prohibited Jews from appearing in public during the Easter season. Canon XXX decreed that “From the Thursday before Easter for four days, Jews may not appear in the company of Christians.” 5 Marriages between Christians and Jews were prohibited. Christians were prohibited from converting to Judaism. 4
561: The bishop of Uzes expelled Jews from his diocese in France.
1205: Pope Innocent III wrote to the archbishops of Sens and Paris that “the Jews, by their own guilt, are consigned to perpetual servitude because they crucified the Lord…As slaves rejected by God, in whose death they wickedly conspire, they shall by the effect of this very action, recognize themselves as the slaves of those whom Christ’s death set free…”
1215: The Fourth Lateran Council approved canon laws requiring that “Jews and Muslims shall wear a special dress.” They also had to wear a badge in the form of a ring. This was to enable them to be easily distinguished from Christians. This practice later spread to other countries.
1227: The Synod of Narbonne required Jews to wear an oval badge. This requirement was reinstalled during the 1930’s by Hitler, who changed the oval badge to a Star of David.
1229: The Spanish inquisition starts. Later, in 1252, Pope Innocent IV authorizes the use of torture by the Inquisitors.
1236: Pope Gregory ordered that church leaders in England, France, Portugal and Spain confiscate Jewish books on the first Saturday of Lent. 1
1259: A “synod of the archdiocese in Mainz ordered Jews to wear yellow badges.” 1
1261: Duke Henry III of Brabant, Belgium, stated in his will that “Jews…must be expelled from Brabant and totally annihilated so that not a single one remains, except those who are willing to trade, like all other tradesmen, without money-lending and usury.” 2
1267: The Synod of Vienna ordered Jews to wear horned hats. Thomas Aquinas said that Jews should live in perpetual servitu 1290: Jews are exiled from England. About 16,000 left the country.
1298: Jews were persecuted in Austria, Bavaria and Franconia. 140 Jewish communities were destroyed; more than 100,000 Jews were killed over a 6 month period.
1306: 100,000 Jews are exiled from France. They left with only the clothes on their backs, and food for only one day.
1320: 40,000 French shepherds went to Palestine on the Shepherd Crusade. On the way, 140 Jewish communities were destroyed.
1321: In Guienne, France, Jews were accused of having incited criminals to poison wells. 5,000 Jews were burned alive, at the stake.
Persecution of Jewish Physicians by the Church:
Medicine in Europe during the Middle Ages found itself restricted by the Christian Church. The church taught that it was irreligious to seek a natural cure from a physician when one could obtain supernatural help from a priest. Some church leaders criticized medical schools because they taught that diseases and disorders came from natural means and not from the evil efforts of Satan.
With medicine in such ill repute among Christians, much of the leadership by the 10th century was provided by Jews and Muslim scholars. Jews were largely responsible for founding the medical Schools at Salerno and Montpellier in the 10th century.
Pope Eugene IV, Nicholas V and Calixtus III forbade Christians from using the services of a Jewish physician. The Trullanean Council in the 8th century; B�ziers Council & Alby Council in the 13th century; Avignon council & Salamanca Council in the 14th century, the Synod of Bamberg in the 15th century; the Council of Avignon in the 16th century, etc. also ordered Christians to not seek healing from Jewish physicians and surgeons. This continued even into the 17th century when the city of Hall in W�rtemberg (in what is now Germany) granted some privileges to a Jewish physician “on account of his admirable experience and skill.” The clergy of Hall complained that “it were better to die with Christ than to be cured by a Jew doctor aided by the devil.” 1338: The councilors of Freiburg banned the performance of anti-Jewish scenes from the town’s passion play because of the lethal bloody reactions against Jews which followed the performances. 9
1347 +: The Black Death originated in the Far East. China, Mongolia, India, central Asia, and southern Russia have all been suggested as the source. 10 Mongol invaders brought it to Caffa in the Crimea (modern-day Fedodosiya). Defenders from the city later spread the disease throughout many Mediterranean ports. 11 Rats initially carried the Black Death; their fleas spread the disease from the rats to humans. As the plague worsened, the germs spread from human to human. In five years, the death toll had reached 25 million. In England, two centuries passed before its population levels recovered from the plague. People searched for someone to blame. They noted that a smaller percentage of Jews than Christians caught the disease. This was undoubtedly due to the Jewish sanitary and dietary laws, which had been preserved from Old Testament times. Rumors circulated that Satan was protecting the Jews and that they were paying back the Devil by poisoning wells used by Christians. The solution was to torture, murder and burn the Jews. “In Bavaria…12,000 Jews…perished; in the small town of Erfurt…3,000; Rue Brul�e…2,000 Jews; near Tours, an immense trench was dug, filled with blazing wood and in a single day 160 Jews were burned.” 5 In Strausberg 2,000 Jews were burned. In Maintz 6,000 were killed…; in Worms 400…” 3
1354: 12,000 Jews were executed in Toledo.
1374: An epidemic of possession broke out in the lower Rhine region of what is now Germany. People were seen “dancing, jumping and [engaging in] wild raving.” This was triggered by enthusiastic revels on St. John’s Day - an Christianized version of an ancient Pagan seasonal day of celebration which was still observed by the populace. The epidemic spread throughout the Rhine and in much of the Netherlands and Germany. Crowds of 500 or more dancers would be overcome together. Exorcisms were tried, but failed. Pilgrimages to the shrine of St. Vitus were tried, but this only seemed to exacerbate the problem. Finally, the rumor spread that God was angry because Christians had been excessively tolerant towards the Jews. God had cursed Europe as He did Saul when he showed mercy towards God’s enemies in the Old Testament. Jews “were plundered, tortured and murdered by tens of thousands.” The epidemic finally burned itself out two centuries later, in the late 16th century. 4
1391 : Jewish persecutions begin in Seville and in 70 other Jewish communities throughout Spain.
1394 : Jews were exiled, for the second time, from France.
Persecution of Jewish Physicians by the Church:
Medicine in Europe during the Middle Ages found itself restricted by the Christian Church. The church taught that it was irreligious to seek a natural cure from a physician when one could obtain supernatural help from a priest. Some church leaders criticized medical schools because they taught that diseases and disorders came from natural means and not from the evil efforts of Satan.
With medicine in such ill repute among Christians, much of the leadership by the 10th century was provided by Jews and Muslim scholars. Jews were largely responsible for founding the medical Schools at Salerno and Montpellier in the 10th century.
Pope Eugene IV, Nicholas V and Calixtus III forbade Christians from using the services of a Jewish physician. The Trullanean Council in the 8th century; B�ziers Council & Alby Council in the 13th century; Avignon council & Salamanca Council in the 14th century, the Synod of Bamberg in the 15th century; the Council of Avignon in the 16th century, etc. also ordered Christians to not seek healing from Jewish physicians and surgeons. This continued even into the 17th century when the city of Hall in W�rtemberg (in what is now Germany) granted some privileges to a Jewish physician “on account of his admirable experience and skill.” The clergy of Hall complained that “it were better to die with Christ than to be cured by a Jew doctor aided by the devil.” t 1431 +: The Council of Basel “forbade Jews to go to universities, prohibited them from acting as agents in the conclusion of contracts between Christians, and required that they attend church sermons.” 5
1434: “Jewish men in Augsburg had to sew yellow buttons to their clothes. Across Europe, Jews were forced to wear a long undergarment, an overcoat with a yellow patch, bells and tall pointed yellow hats with a large button on them.” 1
1453 : The Franciscan monk, Capistrano, persuaded the King of Poland to terminate all Jewish civil rights.
1478: Spanish Jews had been heavily persecuted from the 14th century. Many had converted to Christianity. The Spanish Inquisition was set up by the Church in order to detect insincere conversions. Laws were passed that prohibited the descendants of Jews or Muslims from attending university, joining religious orders, holding public office, or entering any of a long list of professions.
1492 : Jews were given the choice of being baptized as Christians or be banished from Spain. 300,000 left Spain penniless. Many migrated to Turkey, where they found tolerance among the Muslims. Others converted to Christianity but often continued to practice Judaism in secret.
1497: Jews were banished from Portugal. 20 thousand left the country rather than be baptized as Christians.
1516: The Governor of the Republic of Venice decided that Jews would be permitted to live only in one area of the city. It was located in the South Girolamo parish and was called the “Ghetto Novo.” This was the first ghetto in Europe. Hitler made use of the concept in the 1930’s.
1523: Martin Luther distributed his essay “That Jesus Was Born a Jew. ” He hoped that large numbers of Jews would convert to Christianity. They didn’t, and he began to write and preach hatred against them. Luther has been condemned in recent years for being extremely antisemitic. The charge has some merit; however he was probably typical of most Christians during his era.
1539: A passion play was forbidden in Rome because it prompted violent attacks against the city’s Jewish residents. 9
1540: Jews were exiled from Naples.
1543: In his 20’s, Martin Luther, had expected Jews to convert to Christianity in large numbers. Distressed by their reluctance, he developed a hatred for Jews, as expressed in his letters to Rev. Spalatin in 1514, when he was 31 years of age. He wrote:
“I have come to the conclusion that the Jews will always curse and blaspheme God and his King Christ, as all the prophets have predicted….For they are thus given over by the wrath of God to reprobation, that they may become incorrigible, as Ecclesiastes says, for every one who is incorrigible is rendered worse rather than better by correction.” 6
In 1543, he wrote “On the Jews and their lies, On Shem Hamphoras” :
“…eject them forever from this country. For, as we have heard, God’s anger with them is so intense that gentle mercy will only tend to make them worse and worse, while sharp mercy will reform them but little. Therefore, in any case, away with them!…What then shall we Christians do with this damned, rejected race of Jews?
First, their synagogues or churches should be set on fire,…
Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed… They ought to be put under one roof or in a stable, like Gypsies.
Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer books and Talmuds in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught.
Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach any more…
Fifthly, passport and traveling privileges should be absolutely forbidden to the Jews…
Sixthly, they ought to be stopped from usury. All their cash and valuables of silver and gold ought to be taken from them and put aside for safe keeping…
Seventhly, let the young and strong Jews and Jewesses be given the flail, the axe, the hoe, the spade, the distaff, and spindle and let them earn their bread by the sweat of their noses as in enjoined upon Adam’s children…
612: Jews were not allowed to own land, to be farmers or enter certain trades.
613: Very serious persecution began in Spain. Jews were given the options of either leaving Spain or converting to Christianity. Jewish children over 6 years of age were taken from their parents and given a Christian education
692: Cannnon II of the Quinisext Council stated: “Let no one in the priestly order nor any layman eat the unleavened bread of the Jews, nor have any familiar intercourse with them, nor summon them in illness, nor receive medicines from them, nor bathe with them; but if anyone shall take in hand to do so, if he is a cleric, let him be deposed, but if a layman, let him be cut off.” 5
694: The 17th Church Council of Toledo, Spain defined Jews as the serfs of the prince. This was based, in part, on the beliefs by Chrysostom, Origen, Jerome, and other Church Fathers that God punished the Jews with perpetual slavery because of their alleged responsibility for the execution of Jesus. 5
722: Leo III outlawed Judaism. Jews were baptized against their will.
855: Jews were exiled from Italy.
1050: The Synod of Narbonne prohibited Christians from living in the homes of Jews.
1078: “Pope Gregory VII decreed that Jews could not hold office or be superiors to Christians.” 6
1078: The Synod of Gerona forced Jews to pay church taxes.
1096: The First Crusade was launched in this year. Although the prime goal of the crusades was to liberate Jerusalem from the Muslims, Jews were a second target. As the soldiers passed through Europe on the way to the Holy Land, large numbers of Jews were challenged: “Christ-killers, embrace the Cross or die!” 12,000 Jews in the Rhine Valley alone were killed in the first Crusade. This behavior continued for 8 additional crusades until the 9th in 1272.
1099: The Crusaders forced all of the Jews of Jerusalem into a central synagogue and set it on fire. Those who tried to escape were forced back into the burning building.
1121: Jews were exiled from Flanders (now part of present-day Belgium)
1130: Some Jews in London allegedly killed a sick man. The Jewish people in the city were required to pay 1 million marks as compensation.
1146: The Second Crusade began. A French Monk, Rudolf, called for the destruction of the Jews.
1179: Canon 24 of the Third Lateran Council stated: “Jews should be slaves to Christians and at the same time treated kindly due of humanitarian considerations.” Canon 26 stated that “the testimony of Christians against Jews is to be preferred in all causes where they use their own witnesses against Christians.” 7
1180: The French King of France, Philip Augustus, arbitrarily seized all Jewish property and expelled the Jews from the country. There was no legal justification for this action. They were allowed to sell all movable possessions, but their land and houses were stolen by the king.
1189: Jews were persecuted in England. The Crown claimed all Jewish possessions. Most of their houses were burned.
To sum up, dear princes and nobles who have Jews in your domains, if this advice of mine does not suit you, then find a better one so that you and we may all be free of this insufferable devilish burden - the Jews.” 7
Persecution of Jewish Physicians by the Church:
Medicine in Europe during the Middle Ages found itself restricted by the Christian Church. The church taught that it was irreligious to seek a natural cure from a physician when one could obtain supernatural help from a priest. Some church leaders criticized medical schools because they taught that diseases and disorders came from natural means and not from the evil efforts of Satan.
With medicine in such ill repute among Christians, much of the leadership by the 10th century was provided by Jews and Muslim scholars. Jews were largely responsible for founding the medical Schools at Salerno and Montpellier in the 10th century.
Pope Eugene IV, Nicholas V and Calixtus III forbade Christians from using the services of a Jewish physician. The Trullanean Council in the 8th century; B�ziers Council & Alby Council in the 13th century; Avignon council & Salamanca Council in the 14th century, the Synod of Bamberg in the 15th century; the Council of Avignon in the 16th century, etc. also ordered Christians to not seek healing from Jewish physicians and surgeons. This continued even into the 17th century when the city of Hall in W�rtemberg (in what is now Germany) granted some privileges to a Jewish physician “on account of his admirable experience and skill.” The clergy of Hall complained that “it were better to die with Christ than to be cured by a Jew doctor aided by the devil.” 1550: Jews were exiled from Genoa and Venice.
1555-JUL-12: A Roman Catholic Papal bull, “Cum nimis absurdum,” required Jews to wear badges, and live in ghettos. They were not allowed to own property outside the ghetto. Living conditions were dreadful: over 3,000 people were forced to live in about 8 acres of land. Women had to wear a yellow veil or scarf; men had to wear a piece of yellow cloth on their hat. 8
1582: Jews were expelled from Holland.
1648-9: Chmielnicki Bogdan led an uprising against Polish rule in the Ukraine. The secondary goal of Bogdan and his followers was to exterminate all Jews in the country. The massacre began with the slaughter of about 6,000 Jews in Nemirov. Other major mass murders occurred in Tulchin, Polonnoye, Volhynia, Bar, Lvov, etc. Jewish records estimate that a total of 100,000 Jews were murdered and 300 communities destroyed.
Persecution of Jewish Physicians by the Church:
Medicine in Europe during the Middle Ages found itself restricted by the Christian Church. The church taught that it was irreligious to seek a natural cure from a physician when one could obtain supernatural help from a priest. Some church leaders criticized medical schools because they taught that diseases and disorders came from natural means and not from the evil efforts of Satan.
With medicine in such ill repute among Christians, much of the leadership by the 10th century was provided by Jews and Muslim scholars. Jews were largely responsible for founding the medical Schools at Salerno and Montpellier in the 10th century.
Pope Eugene IV, Nicholas V and Calixtus III forbade Christians from using the services of a Jewish physician. The Trullanean Council in the 8th century; B�ziers Council & Alby Council in the 13th century; Avignon council & Salamanca Council in the 14th century, the Synod of Bamberg in the 15th century; the Council of Avignon in the 16th century, etc. also ordered Christians to not seek healing from Jewish physicians and surgeons. This continued even into the 17th century when the city of Hall in W�rtemberg (in what is now Germany) granted some privileges to a Jewish physician “on account of his admirable experience and skill.” The clergy of Hall complained that “it were better to die with Christ than to be cured by a Jew doctor aided by the devil.”
The conversion from religiously-based to racially-based persecution:
Antisemitism: Persecution of Jews along racial lines:
1819: During the late 18th and early 19th centuries, many European Jews lobbied their governments for emancipation. They sought citizenship as well as the same rights and treatment as were enjoyed by non-Jews. This appears to have provoked sporadic anti-semites to engage in anti-Jewish violence. The rioters cried “Hep! Hep!.” The origin(s) of this cry are not clear. Jews and their property were attacked first in Wuerzburg, Germany during 1819-AUG. The rioting spread across Germany and eventually reached as far as Denmark and Poland. 17
1840: A rumor spread in Syria that some Jews were responsible for the ritual killing of a Roman Catholic monk and his servant. As a result of horrendous treatment, some local Jews confessed to a crime that they did not commit. This “Damascus Affair” spurred early Zionist writers like Hess to promote the Zionist cause. 17 More details.
1846 - 1878: Pope Pius IX restored all of the previous restrictions against the Jews within the Vatican state. All Jews under Papal control were confined to Rome’s ghetto - the last one in Europe until the Nazi era restored the church’s practice. On 2000-SEP-3, Pope John Paul II beatified Pius IX; this is the last step before sainthood. He explained: “Beatifying a son of the church does not celebrate particular historic choices that he has made, but rather points him out for imitation and for veneration for his virtue.”
1858: Edgardo Mortara was kidnapped, at the age of six, from his Jewish family by Roman Catholic officials after they found out that a maid had secretly baptized him. He was not returned to his family but was raised a Catholic. He eventually became a priest.
1873: The term “antisemitism” is first used in a pamphlet by Wilhelm Marr called “Jewry’s Victory over Teutonism.”
1881: Alexander II of Russia was assassinated by radicals. The Jews were blamed. About 200 individual pogroms against the Jews followed. (”Pogrom” is a Russian word meaning “devastation” or “riot.” In Russia, a pogrom was typically a mob riot against Jewish individuals, shops, homes or businesses. They were often supported and even organized by the government.) Thousands of Jews became homeless and impoverished. The few who were charged with offenses generally received very light sentences. 1
1893: “…anti-Semitic parties won sixteen seats in the German Reichstag.” 2
1894: Captain Alfred Dreyfus, an officer on the French general staff, was convicted of treason. The evidence against him consisted of a piece of paper from his wastebasket with another person’s handwriting, and papers forged by antisemitic officers. He received a life sentence on Devil’s Island, off the coast of South America. The French government was aware that a Major Esterhazy was actually guilty. 3 The church, government and army united to suppress the truth. Writer Emile Zola and politician Jean Jaur? fought for justice and human rights. After 10 years, the French government fell and Drefus was declared totally innocent. The Dreyfus Affair was world-wide news for years. It motivated Journalist Theodor Herzl to write a book in 1896: “The Jewish State: A Modern Solution to the Jewish Question.” The book led to the founding of the Zionist movement which fought for a Jewish Homeland. A half century later, the state of Israel was born.
1903: At Easter, government agents organized an anti-Jewish pogrom in Kishinev, Moldova, Russia. The local newspaper published a series of inflammatory articles. A Christian child was discovered murdered and a young Christian woman at the Jewish Hospital committed suicide. Jews were blamed for the deaths. Violence ensured. The 5,000 soldiers in the town did nothing. When the smoke cleared, 49 Jews had been killed, 500 were injured; 700 homes looted and destroyed, 600 businesses and shops looted, 2,000 families left homeless. Later, it was discovered that the child had been murdered by its relatives and the suicide was unrelated to the Jews. 4
1905: The Okhrana, the Russian secret police in the reign of Czar Nicholas II, converted an earlier antisemitic novel into a document called the “Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion.” 16 It was published privately in 1897. A Russian Orthodox priest, Sergius Nilus, published them publicly in 1905. It was promoted as the record of “secret rabbinical conferences whose aim was to subjugate and exterminate the Christians.” 5 The Protocols were used by the Okhrana in a propaganda campaign that was associated with massacres of the Jews. These were the Czarist Pogroms of 1905.
1915: 600,000 Jews were forcibly moved from the western borders of Russia towards the interior. About 100,000 died of exposure or starvation.
1917: “In the civil war following the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917, the reactionary White Armies made extensive use of the Protocols to incite widespread slaughters of Jews.” 5 Two hundred thousand Jews were murdered in the Ukraine alone.
1920: The Protocols reach England and the United States. They are exposed as a forgery, but are widely circulated. Henry Ford sponsored a study of international activities of Jews. This led to a series of antisemitic articles in the Dearborn Independent, which were published in a book, “The International Jew.” The Protocols were sold on Wal-Mart’s online bookstore until they were removed on 2004-SEP-21.
1920: The defeat of Germany in World War I and the continuing economic difficulties were blamed in that country on the “Jewish influence.” One antisemitic poster has been preserved from that era. 6 It shows a German, presumably Christian woman, a male Jew with distorted facial features, a coffin and the word “Deutschland” (Germany).
Ron, all of the above are Just the headlines and the most prominent of the known incidents. Do you see references in the above to Christians and to the Church?
Comment by yamit82 — August 21, 2009 @ 2:43 pm
In our own time!!!
1920’s, 1930’s: Hitler had published in Mein Kampf in 1925, writing: “Today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” The Protocols are used by the Nazis to whip up public hatred of the Jews in the 1930’s. Widespread pogroms occur in Greece, Hungary, Mexico, Poland, Rumania, and the USSR. Radio programs by many conservative American clergy, both Roman Catholic and Protestant, frequently attacked Jews. Reverend Fr. Charles E Coughlin was one of the best known. “In the 1930’s, radio audiences heard him rail against the threat of Jews to America’s economy and defend Hitler’s treatment of Jews as justified in the fight against communism.” (12) Other conservative Christian leaders, such as Frank Norris and John Straton supported the Jews. 7
Discrimination against Jews in North America is widespread. Many universities set limits on the maximum number of Jewish students that they would accept. Harvard accepted all students on the basis of merit until after World War I when the percentage of Jewish students approached 15%. At that time they installed an informal quota system. In 1941, Princeton had fewer than 2% Jews in their student body. Jews were routinely barred from country clubs, prestigious neighborhoods, etc. 8
1933: Hitler took power in Germany. On APR-1, Julius Streicher organized a one-day boycott of all Jewish owned businesses in the country. This was the start of continuous oppression by the Nazis culminating in the Holocaust (a.k.a. Shoah). Jews “were barred from civil service, legal professions and universities, were not allowed to teach in schools and could not be editors of newspapers.” 2 Two years later, Jews were no longer considered citizens.
1934: Various laws were enacted in Germany to force Jews out of schools and professions.
1935: The Nazis passed the Nuremberg Laws restricting citizenship to those of “German or related blood.” Jews became stateless.
1936: Cardinal Hloud of Poland urged Catholics to boycott Jewish businesses.
1938: On NOV-9, the Nazi government in Germany sent storm troopers, the SS and the Hitler Youth on a pogrom that killed 91 Jews, injured hundreds, burned 177 synagogues and looted 7,500 Jewish stores. Broken glass could be seen everywhere; the glass gave this event its name of Kristallnacht, the Night of Broken Glass. 9
1938: Hitler brought back century-old church law, ordering all Jews to wear a yellow Star of David as identification. A few hundred thousand Jews are allowed to leave Germany after they give all of their assets to the government.
1939: The Holocaust, the Shoah — the systematic extermination of Jews in Germany — began. The process only ended in 1945 with the conclusion of World War II and the liberation of the death camps. Approximately 6 million Jews (1.5 million of them children), 400 thousand Roma (Gypsies) and others were slaughtered. Some were killed by death squads; others were slowly killed in trucks with carbon monoxide; others were gassed in large groups in Auschwitz, Dacau, Sobibor, Treblinka and other extermination camps. Officially, the holocaust was described by the Nazis as subjecting Jews “to special treatment” or as a “solution of the Jewish question.” Gold taken from the teeth of the victims was recycled; hair was used in the manufacture of mattresses. In the Buchenwald extermination camp, lampshades were made out of human skin; however, this appears to be an isolated incident. A rumor spread that Jewish corpses were routinely converted into soap. However, the story appears to be false. 10
1940: The Vichy government of France collaborated with Nazi Germany by freezing about 80,000 Jewish bank accounts. During the next four years, they deported about 76,000 Jews to Nazi death camps; only about 2,500 survived. It was only in 1995 that a French president, Jacques Chirac, “was able to admit that the state bore a heavy share of responsibility in the mass round-ups and deportations of Jews, as well as in the property and asset seizures that were carried out with the active help of the Vichy regime.” 11
1941: The Holocaust Museum in Washington DC estimates that 13,000 Jews died on 1941-JUN-19 during a pogrom in Bucharest, Romania. It was ordered by the pro-Nazi Romanian regime of Marshal Ion Antonescu. The current government has admitted that this atrocity happened, but most Romanians continue to deny that the Jews were killed on orders from their own government. 12
1941: Polish citizens in Jedwabne in northeastern Poland killed hundreds of Jews, by either beating them to death or burning them alive in a barn. According to the Associated Press: “The role played by Polish citizens was suppressed for nearly six decades until publication of a book by a Polish emigre historian, Jan Tomasz Gross. After release of the book in 2000, the Polish government launched an investigation. ‘The role of the Poles was decisive in conducting the criminal act,’ [prosecutor Radoslaw] Ignatiew, said. The book, ‘Neighbours,’ sparked national soul-searching among Poles, many of whom could not believe that anybody but the Nazis would have committed the atrocity.” 13
1942: The Nazi leaders of Germany, at the Wannsee conference, decided on”the final solution of the Jewish question” which was the attempt to exterminate every Jew in Europe. From JUL-28 to 31, almost 18,000 Russian inhabitants of the Minsk ghetto in what is now Belarus were exterminated. This was in addition to 5,000 to 15,000 who had been massacred in earlier pogroms in that city. This was just one of many such pogroms during World War II. 14
1945: The Shoah (Holocaust) ended as the Allied Forces over-ran the Nazi death camps.
Comment by yamit82 — August 21, 2009 @ 2:47 pm
Rongrand,
Yamit and Shy Guy seem to be giving a very comprehensive response to your question (which is great, because I’m in the midst of Shabbat preparations).
However, this recent blow-up with the Catholic church and their evangelizing agenda just makes me thrill to the immense foresight, scholarship, and profound wisdom of Rav Yoseph B. Soloveitchik who set the contemporary halachic standard on matters of interfaith dialogue and ecumenism.
Read his letter to the Rabbinical Council of America, penned in 1964
And for a real challenge, check out his brilliant essay on this issue (also from 1964)
In my response this week to Isi Leiber, I had mentioned that, “…Leibler should recognize the natural aversion to our “unconditionally” embracing evangelical Christians as a healthy, unifying trend – and as a survival instinct among all of our people. After all, the one common denominator among all Jews –secular, religious, and all shades in between, is that we don’t believe in Jesus as a lord or savior.”
And sure enough, I note that there has been a unified response by the “Anti-Defamation League, the American Jewish Committee and rabbis representing the Orthodox, Conservative and Reform movements” on the issue of the recent Catholic declaration on evangelizing.
At any rate, study Soloveitchik to understand those political, humanitarian, ethical, moral and social endeavors which we can cooperate on as part of a unified family of man vs. those theological issues which are to remain off limits as separate and intimate concerns of respective faith communities. And I think that “respect” is the key word here.
Comment by ellenwriter — August 21, 2009 @ 2:57 pm
Yamit, Shy Guy what can I say?
Listen, I grew up hanging around my Jewish friend and never once was I beaten up like this.
I am black and blue and I have to clean the blood off my shirt.
Really I don’t mind and you can rest assured Israel is in my daily prayers.
Comment by rongrand — August 21, 2009 @ 6:46 pm
I said in my post ron not to take what we posted personally. If what we posted is not true then we owe you and every Catholic and Christian an apology but if we speak the truth then it is the Christian who need to introspect and come to the correct conclusions. We are I hope all adults here and as you can see we are just as honest when we criticize our fellow Jews.
If there is one lesson that we can learn from the last Jewish holocaust that there is no penalty inflicted against the murderers when Jews are killed and slaughtered. Two years after the Holocaust Germany was being rebuilt and integrated back into the European collective, and the world collective the UN. Aside from a few key Nazi few were punished and those few who were tried and imprisoned were out in a year or two. Germany paid in reparations a small fraction of what they looted and stole from the Jews. All of Eastern Europe who aided the Nazi and or stole all of their Dead Jews wealth have yet to pay out a cent. The lesson is: against Jews you can murder and steal and get away with it. So it will happen again
The Catholic Church ron is also a recipient of Jewish loot and property all over Europe and no one knows how much Jewish art and gold is stored away in Vatican Vaults. Unlike me most Jews seem to be willing to forgive and forget if they had some reciprocity from the Church specifically in regards to the historic tenants and dogma of the Church that were the largest causal factor in the historicity of our unpleasant relationships. Some Jews were willing to accept overtures from the Church since VC 1963 but they never read carefully what was being offered and I guess didn’t really care. They bought the sizzle not the steak.
That said, for me at least I had no illusions or expectations one way or another so I am not surprised. I am a believer in Jewish biblical prophesy and therefore can say that when it all goes down you are sitting on a volcano. Who knows when it will erupt?
The Real Reason for Hatred of Jews
Why do people hate this message – the eternal “call to Sinai” – and harbor such animosity for those who carry it?
A great many people simply can’t cope with the burden of being good. However, when they act in ways that are bad, they can’t cope with the resultant feelings of guilt. Try as they may, they can never cut themselves loose from the standards of absolute morality dictated by the Torah. Stuck in this “Catch-22″ situation, people turn with their mounting frustrations against the Jews, who they perceive as personifying humanity’s collective conscience.
Sigmund Freud recognized this tendency, and explained: “Jews are hated not so much because they killed Jesus, but because they produced him.”
Thousands of years ago, before the Torah was given, people built their lives around philosophies that were based on their own concepts of right and wrong. Then, when the Jews entered the theological arena, they showed people all the mistakes they had been making:
Pagan gods are nonsense – there is only one God for all of mankind, Who is invisible, infinite and perfect. Infanticide and human sacrifice are unacceptable. Every human being is born with specific rights. No one can live as he pleases, for everyone must surrender his will to a higher Authority.
On a certain conscious level, people recognize the Jews’ message as truth. Those unwilling to embrace the truth have found that the only way to rid themselves of it is to destroy the messengers – for the message itself is too potent to be dismissed.
That is what is so irksome about the Jews, and that is why, for some people, nothing less than total destruction of the Jews will do. If Judaism were just another ideology, people could laugh it off and continue on their merry way. But deep in his soul, every human being recognizes the essential truths of morality – people can’t just laugh it off.
Comment by yamit82 — August 21, 2009 @ 8:30 pm
Yamit, I don’t take it personally and in fact it’s upsetting to know this terrible past. There is no other people who have suffered so much for no reason other than hatred. Yet, when one ask why are they hated, you no doubt will get a variety of reason, none of which would ever be reason enough to hate anyone.
As far as the Vatican holding items belonging to the Jews, they should be returned. Let’s have some transparency, let’s see what is being held. What kind of example does the church set by holding these items hostage?
Again I am not alone, I know a majority of Catholics who support Israel for a number of good reasons and none of which is conversion, trust me. We believe they have G-d given rights to the Holy Land a covenant of G-d. In addition Israel is a democracy, a friend and ally of the U.S. (although you wouldn’t know it by Obama). And then there are the Arab terrorist who want to kill Jews. Who do you think we are going to side with. Remember, 99.9% of these Arab countries have terrible human right policies, treating their people especially women like garbage. In addition they hate Americans.
Comment by rongrand — August 21, 2009 @ 11:37 pm
Yamit82
I just copied and pasted YOUR words
Your method Yamit82
So let´s judge the historical record
I raise the issue
1. What are the Jews of the world and of Israel facing today? Is the possibility of another great killing on the horizon? Could it be on the horizon but being caterpulted by objective forces into a very immediate future?
2. I say there were 2 qualitative points of history. I have always thought this. One is the Russian workers revolution of 1917, pointing forward out of the crisis of capitalist relations and paralysis of productive forces and power of mankind. Two is the Holocaust where capitalism turns to Fascism and points to a barbarism of human society, and points to a crisis where all human, animal (do not forget our non speaking friends) and vegetative life is in real danger.
So obviously in this debate over the barren methods and lack of political strategy of Yamit82 I focus on Two, the Holocaust.
I asked “How did it happen”?
A serious question NOT MUCH ADDRESSED AT ALL IN JEWISH CIRCLES which in itself is remarkable.
Where to start?
Could we start by asking how did Hitler´s Nazi party take the power of the German State into its hands.
If we start there then what issues are to be discussed therein.
Perhaps issues outside (but not totally) of the Jewish life
Such as:
The German SPD (Labour)party
The German Communist Party under control from Moscow
The Comintern
The Vatican
The various Governments of Europe including British Labour
Also the position of the various Jewish sages, including of course Jabotinsky
Marx is dead, Lenin is dead, but Trotsky is very much alive up to 1940, and in my opinion the critical year was 1933.
Per this is not a nuthouse discussion at all. You kind of lower yourself in my eyes by that remark.
This is a discussion of historical and contemporary concerns of the deepest nature.
They concern the nature of leadership.
And I am ready.
I have been absent for some hours and I have not read all of above, but enough to see that Yamit82 continues his insulting terminology, he uses the word “commies” which is probably an American McCarthite term.
And has a purpose always of concealing the struggle of Trotsky against Stalinism.
But Yamit82 may be so engrained in prejudice that he does not actually understand the nuance behind the word “commie”
I am not saying that what Trotsky wrote in 1933 was like a gospel, but I am saying at least read what he wrote and what he did.
That is the real difference in this discussion.
I am saying look at the Holocaust historically.
We start from the needs of the present but we go into the past in order to find knowledge.
It is certainly not me who has the prejudice. I am not Jewish or Christian. But I believe there is real difference between Judaism and Christianity, and then again between Judaism Christianity and Islam.
I fight on the basis of the Jews having the right to practice their beliefs without molestation.
Yamit says I as a trotskyist am not sincere. he can read my mind it would seem.
But whether I am sincere or not that is the position I fight for and the record stands.
All we have to go on on the web is what people say and if they say it consistently.
Comment by Felix Quigley — August 23, 2009 @ 2:02 pm
Yamit82 does not understand the essence of the United Front.
In the complexity of politics you are thrtown together with people who you have deep differences with.
This is the case with the American Christian movement, which to me is another way of saying the ordinary American people.
Of course they are religious. I am materialist (as is Joseph)
But Joseph and I have other deep diferences.
But on the Jewish issue of Israel we are all united.
The essence of the United Front is that there is unity against the common enemy IN ORDER THAT THE DISCUSSION ON STRATEGY AND TACTICS CAN CONTINUE
1933 was a qualitative point. That was the point that decided. THE DISCUSSION CAME TO AN END WHEN THE FASCISTS TOOK THE POWER.
I think that US Intelligence, its control over the Left, the role of Obama who thinks of the Holocaust like the “Nabka” etc are all moving towards that point.
It is vital that the American people are mobilized along side of the Jews.
netanyahu actually understands this much better than Yamit82. Although Yamit82 sounds very staunch he is far more reactionary in his basic philosophy which is tied in with isolationism than is Netanyahu.
Comment by Felix Quigley — August 23, 2009 @ 2:11 pm
When the “Left” talk about America they are filled with a hatred. But I think that the Left has been infiltrated by State Department nazis (Blowback)
But America is more than the “Empire” which is another word for an Imperialism.
America is also the America of the American and French Revolutions which have done so much for humanity.
This tradition is carried on in the common folk and their values, some linked to the Bible as well as the materialism of Thomas Payne.
It is a mixed bag as all national revolutions are but as Joseph says it would be a crime to turn away from that quality in the American people, specifically American Christians.
And RonGrand tells us that when he was growing up he did not find Jew hatred among his friends who were the ordinary people of America.
I think Jew hatred is a disease of the American ruling elitists. They hate Israel because they hate Jews getting above themselves. And even excelling and surpassing them.
But of course these ruling elitist have many ways of passing this hatred into a lumpen element in the lower classes.
Comment by Felix Quigley — August 23, 2009 @ 2:18 pm
But that latter point raises the issue of leadership
There is needed a very tight and slick operating movement that can challenge the lies of the ruling elite who have their Media and can control to an extent how people think.
This is why I place great emphasis on the ZStreet fighters, because they seem to understand this vital question of ideology, and how to combat this American elitist ideology.
Which has the form today in th positions of the Left in alliance with Islam, as was seen most graphically in the Gaza War.
Comment by Felix Quigley — August 23, 2009 @ 2:21 pm
Do you think that my reference to infiltration (comment 77) is fanciful.
Then do research.
All political movements of the past, especially left political movements, have been heavily infiltrated.
Most now accept that British intelligence had by the time of GFA infiltrated Sinn Fein and IRA tot he very highest level, so that Sonn Fein Ministers in Government today in Stormont are in fact agents of the British intelligence.
It goes with the territory.
This will also apply to the Jews and Israel.
Comment by Felix Quigley — August 23, 2009 @ 2:25 pm
Felix one question. After agreeing with you based on my own posts substantiating that Trotsky was more than mot but certainly not alone in predicting if not a Holocaust a very bad time for the Jews of Europe. My question is how many Jews did he save or attempt to save with all of his astute and prescient understanding of the dangers ahead? Jabotinsky went from city to city towns and villages all over Europe and told the Jews they were in mortal danger and to get out ASAP. What did your Trotsky do?
How many Jews are alive today because of Trotsky?
The Jew haters in America and everywhere else cross over class distinctions. You will find jew hatred in all classes, it is only how the Jew hatred manifests itself that there are perceived differences. The European and American jew Haters have not changed since the Holocaust and in many ways it has just shifted emphasis from the individual Jew to the State of the Jews. The world’s attempts at the peace process can only be understood in a historical context. On their own, they are unintelligible. Why, indeed, are countries so concerned with the national rights of the three-million-people Palestinian no-nation? The West doesn’t support independence for hundreds of liberation movements worldwide, including many that clearly involve historically, linguistically, and genetically distinguishable nations. Nor is the West overly concerned with one country taking another’s land: the paragon of democracy has itself annexed a third of Mexico; Russia, Poland, Czechoslovakia, and France annexed core German lands. Nor is anyone really concerned about oppressing minorities, especially when they are hostile: there is no need to appeal to the well-known example of Russia and the Chechens when France legalized Breton names only a few years ago. It’s also hard to see how the West is concerned with religious freedom in places like Saudi Arabia.
Perhaps Israel is being pushed to make only inessential concessions? On the contrary, the Road Map plan demands that we cede the Temple Mount, Jerusalem, and Judea. If there are Jewish territories on earth, those are the ones. It would be sort of like Russia abandoning the Kremlin, or America selling the White House.
Maybe some painful concessions are historically normal? Not for victors. There is not a single instance in world history when an attacked country won the war, conquered the land of its enemy, and then relinquished it out of goodwill. Israel has been attacked half a dozen times in six decades; taking over the enemy’s land is a historically standard retribution.
Is there any benefit for Israel in agreeing to the concessions, however bizarre? No, they are clearly suicidal. No state can possibly exist within eight-mile-wide borders, let alone a state besieged by three hundred million enemies.
The international attitude toward Israel is clarified by the auxiliary demands. Israel has to fight nicely, send her children into urban combat, and even in combat somehow inquire about a target’s terrorist affiliation before shooting. Israel has to be liberal—that is, abandon Judaism, which demands strict morality. Israel has to open herself to foreign influence, thus forgoing her uniquely Jewish lifestyle. Israel has to be democratic—which means, in plain English, to allow Arab voters to subvert the Jewish state. Israel has to be tolerant of minorities and accept Arabs as one third of her population. What will remain of the Jewish state when all those orders are implemented?
Look further. The US, our closest ally, prevents us from attacking Iran, which will acquire nuclear weapons within the next year. The US Administration is therefore okay with a nuclear Iran, which wants to wipe Israel off the map. This is not an isolated event: America condemned Israel for bombing Iraq’s nuclear reactor. In 1967, the outlook was apocalyptic, Jews dug tens of thousands of graves and prepared for total annihilation, but the US barred us from preempting; it did likewise in 1973. Two years after the Holocaust, the United Stated and Britain did not give vote in the UN for the establishment of a Jewish state. When the state was established nonetheless, they embargoed weapons sales.
Polls indicate moderate anti-Semitism in America up to 1937, around 15 percent. In terms of today’s polls, those were the hardcore anti-Semites, with about twice that many latent Jew-haters. It is not surprising then, that polls indicate a sharp rise of American anti-Semitism in 1939-41 when papers delivered news of anti-Semitic repressions in Germany and Austria. Common Americans saw that anti-Semitism was actionable and socially acceptable. During the war, polls steadily placed Jews as the most disliked group in America, well ahead of its German and Japanese citizens.
In 1944, the Germans came up with an offer to release up to one million Jews; the Allies refused to negotiate. When Jewish organizations scrambled to collect the necessary amount, the Allies informed them that the borders would remain shut. The Jews were sent to Auschwitz.
During the Holocaust, America, Britain, and Russia conducted daily radio broadcasts in the occupied territories. Millions of people listened to every word. Not a single time did the broadcasters warn the Jews to flee or tell them about the massacres. Stalin knew about the extermination from day one; Roosevelt and Churchill knew at least by January 1942, and probably earlier. Their intelligence intercepted German radio transmissions with exact numbers of murdered Jews, but they did not warn the Jews to flee. So when the Jews boarded the trains to Auschwitz, the name meant nothing to them.
Before the war, when Germans and Austrians repressed the Jews atrociously, Britain took similar measures: just like Germany and Austria, Britain forbade Jews to buy land—in the Jewish national home, entrusted to Britain by the League of Nations. The 1939 White Paper formally reneged on the Balfour declaration and the Mandate’s terms, limited Jewish immigration to a trickle (subject to Arab approval), and blocked Jews from the only place in the world they could escape to.
The free world gathered at the Evian conference to find a place for Jewish refugees. At the time, immigration to the US ran well below the legally established quota; even without moral considerations, the law allowed about 100,000 more immigrants per year. The US and Britain announced they would not admit any refugees, a euphemism for Jewish undesirables. Britain reneged on its obligation to establish a Jewish national home in Palestine just when it was most needed, and curtailed immigration into our own land. The laughable explanation was that the Arabs were upset about the incoming Jews—as if Britain cared in the least about the opinions of the Palestinian peasants. There was no place for Jews in any other part of the globe-spanning British empire, either. Other countries happily followed suit. The Germans got the message: their opponents didn’t want the Jews anywhere.
The Holocaust was a four-headed beast: America, Britain, and Russia played their parts.
The peace process is just another means of Holocaust.
Yes I am isolationist, we have no friends and cannot trust anyone other than our selves. We are not the primary target of Islam the West is especially America. We are seen as Americas extension in the Arab World. The real conflict is between Islam and Christianity for world religious domination. The clash of civilizations is only subtext to the primary conflict Two great religions fighting over world hegemony. We Jews should realize that this is not our fight and try to find a way to stay out of it. The west is an extension of the Europe of 1938 and their goals are not radically different.
Felix Nazism was a socialist movement in almost every way, They were as much an enemy of capitalism as you declare yourself to be.
Comment by yamit82 — August 23, 2009 @ 4:03 pm
Hi, Felix
I enjoy reading your stuff — You give Americans at least SOME credit for being a decent people.
I think it’s interesting, how you characterize the “Left” as part of the Establishment Elite. Back in the early 70s, I was involved with a potpourri of radicals — CPUSA, Progressive Labor, Wobblies, left-wing extremists (”an infantile disorder”, according to Lenin). The AntiWar movement brought them all together, along with others, and I never heard a peep about any of them not identifying with the “Left”. It seemed that the only real division was between the Irish and the Jews — the Irish wanted a revolution now, it seems, and the Jews wanted something more genteel and delicated; but as far as I could see, they all seemed to be on the same side.
Something’s really gone crazy in the past 35 years. I thought a decisive moment came in 1997, when the environmentalists (presumably Leftists) teamed up with Charles Hurwitz, Jewish industrialist, to evict some 200 people from a piece of Pacific Lumber Company land where they’s been living for over 15 years. It was then, that I realized, once for all, that the new “Left” had zero compassion for the poor. I had been suspecting it for some time, hearing our President talk and wondering if there was any difference at all between the New World Order of GHW Bush and the “Let the Good Times Roll” policies of Bill Clinton. With Little Bush becoming President after that, and Ms. Clinton making a bid to succeed him (after a Presidential “contest” in 2004 between members of the same Yale fraternity), I started wondering if we had returned to the dynastic days of King George (of England, not Bush). With the coming of the Obama “Messianic Age”, I can see that something more “modern” (as in, a resurrected Roman Empire) is actually afoot.
Did you ever see the movie “Coneheads”? The sychophand INS assistant agent, who later became a flunky of the Coneheads, reminds me of Rahm Emanuel. The end is near — hopefully followed by something better.
Comment by BlandOatmeal — August 25, 2009 @ 8:01 pm
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