Neither a bi-national state nor a two state solution
By Ted Belman
Jeffrey Goldberg interviewed Hussein Ibish the author of “What’s Wrong With the One-State Agenda?” and titled his interview, The Fantasy World of One-Staters. Ibish was one of the speakers at the J Street Convention.
Ibish thought that the J Street tent was too big to find a consensus and it would have to create some cohesion and a central message before it could be effective.
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(Ibish) I mean people ranging from the sort of centrist-center left, all the way to post-Zionists, anti-Zionists, who were there, too. It’s not ultimately a group that’s going to form, I think, a functional coalition. Right now, they’re finding their feet. This is normal, it’s inevitable — but at a certain point, I think they have to clarify what they are, who their constituency is, what they stand for, who they are, who they’re not. They’ve been more successful in creating a space for themselves as a new voice that is compelling, but at other moments it’s looked like where they were simply positioning themselves as the alternative to AIPAC. And my sense of things is that, initially, that they would look too much to their rivals. But sooner rather than later, they’re going to have to just move on and start to define themselves in a much more coherent and pro-active way, not just in contrast to the traditional Jewish organizations but also to distinguish themselves from people in the Jewish community whose criticism of Israel makes them anathema to the mainstream of the community. They can’t go there and I think they’ve tried not to go there.
I think he is entirely wrong in this because he assumes that the goal of J Street is to attract a substantial number of Jews and thus speak for a major segment of the Jewish community. But what they really want to do is undermine the Jewish state. They are not pro-Israel they are anti-Israel. They will never compromise their ideology to get more support.
But I was more interested in what he had to say about the fantasy of the one state solution that some are touting now. He thought it was a fantasy because hardly any Israelis would agree to it.
He totally rejected the belief “that through the application of what they (the one staters) call BDS - Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions - globally that they can crush the will of the Israelis and break the Zionist movement.”
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Anyone who thinks that is plausible in the foreseeable future doesn’t understand the nature of the American relationship with Israel. The commitment of the U.S., not just the government but American society, is to the survival and security of the Israeli state. And then there’s another aspect, which is the extent to which Israeli institutions, organizations and corporations are interwoven at a very fundamental level with many of those in the U.S.
I’m talking about corporate, governmental, intelligence, military, industrial, scientific ties. The point is that you can only take talk of boycott and sanctions seriously if you really don’t understand any of this. And if you don’t understand any of this, then you’re living in a fantasy world.
Furthermore, he says, the world has moved on.
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These people are trapped in the language of the Fifties and Sixties. You’re talking about a worldview is anachronistic in the most fundamental sense. It doesn’t recognize any of the changes that have taken place since then. For example, the strategic situation that’s emerged in the Middle East, where the Arab states and the Arabs generally have a lot of other things to worry about other than Israel. This is a world in which a lot of Gulf states are extremely concerned about Iraq, and where there are Arab states — Jordan and Egypt — that have treaties with Israel, where Syria has a motive to be civil with Israel that is unpleasant but completely stable, and where it’s a very different environment than simply the Arabs and Israelis are enemies.
The other thing that they’ve missed completely, and this is sort of the amazing thing, is the total transformation in American official policy toward the Palestinians over the past 20 years. Twenty-one years ago, there was no contact ever between the U.S. and the PLO. No contact, zero, and no Palestinian statehood is the consensus American foreign policy and it is a national security priority under Obama. People in the House, key positions like the chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee, Howard Berman, chair of the Subcommittee on the Middle East, Gary Ackerman, Nita Lowey on Appropriations - all of them Jewish American members of Congress, stalwart supporters of Israel, and all of them committed to peace based on two states. And all of them, by the way, who were on the host committee of the American Task Force on Palestine gala last week.
It is easy to understand why these supporters of Israel and a two state solution would consider the expansion of settlements an obstacle to the two state solution. That’s why they supported Obama’s demand for a freeze, in part, if not in whole. But what about Israel. Israelis are in favour of building in Jerusalem but less supportive of building in the rest of Judea and Samaria. Those who support continued construction do not support a two state solution save for those who firmly believe that only through such construction can the Arabs be forced to make a deal. Time would not be on the side of the Arabs. If construction were to stop entirely, the Arabs could wait another hundred years to destroy Israel. Our American friends should understand this.
Israel should too. Israel can’t have it both ways. She can’t favour a two state solution and at the same time expand the settlement endeavour. Perhaps the Netanyahu government has come to this conclusion and therefor has frozen all new construction in favour of renewed negotiations. But the opposition to such a freeze is very strong. The opposition to withdrawing from Judea and Samaria is even stronger.
Netanyahu’s current policy is not aimed at the same end result as envisioned by Israel’s friends in the US, namely two states living in peace. He doesn’t believe it is possible. Netanyahu is aiming for limited sovereignty, only, for the Arabs, otherwise known as autonomy.
I would argue that the two staters are also pursuing a fantasy. To believe that such a solution is possible is to ignore that neither party wants to make the necessary compromises. It also ignores how intractable the problems are.
What is missing from the predominant view is a third possibility, namely, one where the one state is not a bi-national state but a Jewish state with a Jewish majority.
If Israel were to annex Judea and Samaria, the Jewish residents in the expanded Israel, would outnumber the Arab residents, 2:1 for the foreseeable future. (See AIDRG and One Jewish State .) Jewish citizens would exceed Arab citizens by even a greater majority. The Arabs would be granted citizenship over time according to western norms e.g. they must speak the language, swear loyalty, do national service and so on.
Basic Laws would be passed to ensure that Israel remain a Jewish state. This would not be unusual as many states affilliate with Christianity or Islam in their constitutions. The Arab citizens would simply have to accept that.
It is either that or autonomy only, over Area “A” only. This is about 40% of Judea and Samaria.
Pursuing such alternate solutions would have the best chance of success if the US committed to it.
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Pingback by Tweets that mention Israpundit » Blog Archive » Neither a bi-national state nor a two state solution -- Topsy.com — November 8, 2009 @ 12:33 am
I amended my article just now.
Comment by Ted Belman — November 8, 2009 @ 6:33 am
email
Comment by Ted Belman — November 8, 2009 @ 5:37 pm
Israel annexes Judea and Samaria and ignores Gaza:
Eveybody ignores Gaza now, America as well as Israel.
If Israel tries to annex Judea and Samaria, who would possibly allow it? America, the Quartet, the UN, the international court of “justice”? They already consider Jewish Israel to be nazi-equivalent international war criminals just for having the chutzpa to actually defend themselves against muslim missiles.
And incorporating two million more Jew-hating palestinian muslim arabs into Jewish Israel, giving them free passage throughout Israel, full welfare benefits (including free health care and unemployment), and voting rights so that they can ally themselves with the Jew-hating post-Zionist Israeli “Jewish” left? It’s hard to see how that can do any good.
The tradition that Esau and Jacob are incompatible, like oil and water, and that when one rises the other will fall, applies even more so to Israeli Jews and palestinians.
Israel should indeed take advantage of the west bank-gaza split to make it permanent. Israel should annex only the predominantly Jewish parts of Judea and Samaria, revoke citizenship from Israeli arabs and proclaim that they are palestinians, and encourage west bank palestinians to ally with Jordan.
This will result in Judea and Samaria becoming a hodgepodge of Jews under Israeli control and palestinians under Jordanian control, but that is the best I can come up with at this time for a long term solution if the status quo becomes untenable.
Shaul Mofaz is the egomaniacal Persian born Jew who is driven by his hatred of both Netanyahu on the right and Tzipi Livni on the left, and proposes a provisional west bank state in area C, now under complete palestinian control. In my analysis, that would be the start of Hamas taking over all of the West Bank and turning it into another Gaza. But even under my plan, that may happen anyway if Jordan is taken over by the Islamic Brotherhood.
That’s why the status quo is best for now, and most importantly, remaining flexible.
Comment by Samuel Fistel — November 8, 2009 @ 5:37 pm
Samuel Fistel:
The problem is that this is not a decision for you to make So perhaps (in the words of Narvey) quit shoulda, coulda, why don’t we, if only, it isn’t fair, their biased, and on, and on,and on zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Wake me up when someone comes up with something original.
Comment by h peskin — November 9, 2009 @ 4:23 am
Peskin:
What is the point in chiming in with such a response? It’s called a waste of bandwidth.
Maintaining status quo is a plan, and much better than usual US initiated ‘failures’ that entail stealing Israeli land and rendering it Judenrein.
Comment by jrob — November 9, 2009 @ 4:20 pm
“The Jewish State of Israel” - kinda has a nice ring to it…and Arabs are allowed to reside there, just as Jews are allowed to reside in the “Islamic Republic of Iran” or a future “Islamic Rwepublic of Palestine”…oh yeah…sure../.
Lets have an official name change!
Comment by Sonnyboy8080 — November 9, 2009 @ 5:03 pm
Samuel Fistal (#4)
I agree in principle. Indeed, I have written a detailed proposal describing what you describe in shorthand regarding a ‘hodgepodge’ in J&S. I would add to that only that Gaza be returned to Egyptian sovereignty as per pre-1967 borders, and remains demilitarized as is the case for the rest of Sinai. (Egypt created that mess, and they can clean it up.)
I have been quietly circulating my proposal around official D.C. for some time now; at one point, I even confirmed that the Speaker of the House circa ‘06 (Dennis Hastert) read it, liked it, and passed it onto the Bush administration (from which it most likely went into the ‘circular file’…but at least it got as far as it did). I recently sent it to the offices of 69 of the 71 senators who signed the Bayh-Risch letter asking Obama to put more pressure on the Arabs to recognize Israel. I received positive feedback from the office of Senator Jon Kyl (R, AZ), the minority leader of the Senate. Senator Sam Brownback (R, KS) has been promoting similar ideas on his own. During February of ‘08, I personally handed a copy to Senator McCain while he was on the campaign trail. I never got any feedback from him, but I believe he read it and that it influenced his thinking. A month later, when he was in Israel, he did not meet with any officials of the PA whatsoever. Also, that summer, a top aide gave a speech in New York in which he declared Jordan to be Palestine.
My point: This is not a lost cause.
A second point: World political pressure is growing, especially with Neville Carter Hussein Obama in office. The bad guys are putting on a full court press as never before. Good thing we’ve got Bibi to keep his finger in the dike for the time being! Still, the status quo is becoming less viable by the month. And three years is a long time. Some call me a pessimist, but I am expecting Intifada Three to break out any time now. The opposition has got to know that they will never again have a more sympathetic U.S. president than they have now. For these reasons, I consider it absolutely vital that as many of us as possible put forth an “alternative” vision of peace that is realistic, historically supportable, and that can be held up in contrast to the nonsense that passes for conventional wisdom in the halls of power today regarding this issue.
So, how do we get from here - the present situation - to there - what I and others here propose as an acceptable long-term solution to this problem?
First, we have to make the recognition issue paramount. Everybody who has any access to any media - even if it is so much as writing a letter to the editor of your local paper, or e-mailing your favorite cable news program - has got to stress this issue. Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen (R, FL), the ranking Republican on the House Foreign Affairs Committee, issued a statement this past August demanding that the U.S. cut off all aid to the PA unless they recognize Israel as a Jewish state. We have to encourage others to follow her lead on this (I sent her my proposal too, by the way, and her CoS told me he forwarded the same to the entire HFAC).
Failing recognition by the PA - and this will fail, they can’t do this or they get killed by their clerics - then Israel and her supporters declare that they, in turn, do not recognize the legitimacy of the PA as the sole representatives of Palestinian national aspirations. From here, the only logical direction is Jordan as the Palestinian state - de jure as well as de facto. And then from there, ideas such as mine and Mr. Fistal’s become elevated to something more than pipe dreams.
In the very unlikely event that the PA calls this bluff, then Israel and her supporters say, “OK, but given practical geographical/security considerations, J&S must still remain demilitarized. Also, any Jews in the Palestinian areas of J&S must have their civil rights guaranteed as per Arabs in Israel. Finally, external security/foreign affairs is the responsibility of Jordan (not Israel, as is now proposed per the conventional wisdom). Along with this, Jordan is held responsible for any terrorism emanating from Palestinian J&S.” See where I’m going with this?
Even if the PA and/or Jordan is taken over by Hamas, if shooting starts, it is Jordan’s fault, and Israel would be fully within her rights to re-take J&S on a permanent basis. Also, in this scenario, we are talking about state vs. state warfare, not some terrorist gang hiding behind the skirt of a state (e.g., Lebanon) who in turn does not accept responsibility. In other words, the gloves are off. And historically, state vs. state warfare does not go very well for Israel’s neighbors. Thus, J&S would be held hostage to the success of the agreement. This would be the case, in effect, whether the PA called the “recognition bluff” or if, failing that, something like my proposal came into being (assuming that the conditions I lay out above were met in the former case).
Voices like mine - among others advocating similar ideas - are indeed having effects on the ground already. Reports coming out of Jordan indicate that the monarchy is very nervous about becoming “Palestine”. They have indicated their nervousness over this, for example, by revoking the Jordanian citizenship of a number of Palestinians. They feel the pressure. I say we turn up the volume.
After all, we can quite sensibly argue:
1. Regarding recognition: This has to be the primary issue, as opposed to this stupid settlements nonsense we hear about endlessly nowadays as the ‘primary obstacle to peace’. The idea of the Palestinians - or any other Arabs or Moslems - refusing to recognize Israel would be tantamount to Russia not recognizing Poland as a Polish state, or Turkey not recognizing Greece as a Greek state (both contentious issues in their day, by the way). Without recognition, any agreement is worthless, as the absense of the same will allow the PA to renege on any agreement, since they cannot be held to the terms of any agreement with an entity that they themselves define as illegitimate. No recognition means a ready rationale for continued war as far as the eye can see. It means they can continue to define the whole of Israel as just one big “illegal settlement”. We have to use whatever resources we have to call this charade for what it is, to anyone who will listen.
2. Regarding Jordan = Palestine: The PA routinely invokes the principle of “majority rule” in their claims on J&S. So, why is this principle so important there, and is to be totally ignored right next door in Palestinian majority Jordan?
Stout hearts, everybody. It is going to be a long three years.
Comment by Vinnie — November 10, 2009 @ 12:32 am
the term ‘demilitarized Palestinian state’ is an attempt to eat a kosher-slaughtered pig. There is no such animal as a demilitarized state. Netanyahu knows full well that no political force in the world could prevent such a state from arming itself, making alliances and behaving like a recognized state.
Demilitarized Palestinian State?
by Prof. MK Arieh Eldad
http://www.onestateonenation.org/demilitarized_palestinian_state.htm
Any one who even suggesting the possibility of such an entity as a demilitarized state is deceiving his own people and support base. “There ain’t no such animal.” Of course, I don’t mean nano-states such as Andorra or the Vatican, which have themselves chosen not to maintain an army. There is no real state in the world defined as a demilitarized state. And Netanyahu did not make do with a misleading general statement, he went into details: the state won’t have missiles and rockets and planes, and will not be able to sign treaties.
“It will be forbidden to Germany to maintain or build fortifications… in this territory (West of the Rhine)…. It is forbidden for Germany to maintain an army…. the German army will not include more than seven infantry divisions…. It is forbidden for Germany to import or export tanks or any other military hardware…. The German naval forces will be limited and are not to include submarines. The armed forces of Germany will not include any air forces…. In the political realm, Germany is forbidden to enter into any treaty with Austria.”
Rapallo Treaty. It was the Jewish foreign minister of Germany, Walther Rathenau, who stood behind the agreement that years later gave Nazi Germany its powerful war machine. And it was Erhard Milch, the son of a Jewish father, who subverted the Versailles Treaty and, in the guise of civilian aeronautic companies and flying clubs, established Lufthansa, which during the war became the Luftwaffe, the German air force that in weeks overcame Poland and France and bombed London in the Blitz.
The Jewish people can be trusted to bring forth warped members who will arm the “demilitarized Palestinian state”, if one should ever come to be.
But all of the above is not the main thing.
The main thing is that Netanyahu has recognized the right of Arabs to establish a sovereign state in our homeland.
Every plan and every suggestion on this site and others re: Israel the Ishmaelites and the West seem to be based how and what we can do to keep those some wolves from devouring us Lambs. Every suggestion will fail mostly because they do not address certain truths.
A- Our conflict with the Arabs is first and foremost a religious conflict wrapped in neonationalist garb. We challenge Islamic Dogma at it’s core belief that they are Judaisms replacement and that Islam holds the only ontological truth.
B- This same argument holds true for much of the Christian West who use the Arab Israeli conflict as their surrogates for the final solution.
C-Why is it necessary for Israel to keep America tethered to us like a dead lead weight? What would happen to us if the political tether were cut? There seems to be no valid reason why we should accept even for tactical reasons any concession that results in the division of or relinquishing of a single grain of sand of our country, either declaratively or physically. Nobody else has ever done such a thing voluntarily and certainly no Jew has ever betrayed The Land in biblical times. The Torah commandment or the concept that it is ours divinely promised and given only to the Jews is an accepted precept in both Islam and Christianity. This isn’t the problem with Islam and Christianity as they view according to their own dogmas that the Problem isn’t the Land it’s the Jews being in the Land which screws up their individual theological dogmas.
For both Islam and Christianity The Jews who go from strength to strength and having returned to their land means that the Prophets were correct and that the G-d of Israel is G-d.
If the Jews therefore are right; then by definition they (Muslims and Christians) are wrong and so it cannot be allowed. That is the crux of the Problem and everything else is smoke and mirrors, sometimes politically correct rhetoric and sometimes not so. The world will never allow a solution that reinforces Israels claims and rights, only our enemies! That is why there seems to be a confluence of divergent interests conspiring together to eliminate the only symbolic Jewish national symbol and entity in the world.
This irrational behavior of the Christian and Muslim world cannot not be explained in rational terms or rational debate, because it isn’t rational. It reminds me of the Germans hurting their own war effort and depriving their own troops material and troop support so they could kill more Jews. Winning or losing the war came in second to killing the Jews and this for Hitler was rational as that was his primary motivation, world domination came in a distant second in his overall list of priorities.
Tehillim - Psalms - Chapter 2
Chapter 2
Why have nations gathered and [why do] kingdoms think vain things?
Kings of a land stand up, and nobles take counsel together against the Lord and against His anointed?
D- The only long term and just solution to our conflict is a complete overhaul of our political and military conceptions, and begin to really think and believe that our destiny lies primarily in our own hands and that we have the means to affect and protect those concepts.
Comment by yamit82 — November 10, 2009 @ 1:29 pm
Yamit
While I don’t doubt that you are right about a demilitarized Palestine, providing nothing else is in place.
My objective is to have Israel sovereignty over the whole place but allowing a certain level of autonomy within that context. That better than giving them the vote which would be in play if the whole place was annexed.
We could also encourage them to leave.
Comment by Ted Belman — November 10, 2009 @ 2:08 pm
We could also encourage them to leave.
Palestinian Poll: Only Half Want to Stay in Yesha
Reported: 18:52 PM - Nov/04/09
(IsraelNN.com) According to a new poll carried out by the Palestinian Center for Public Opinion only about half of the Arab population is certain they wish to remain in Judea, Samaria and Gaza. In reply to the question: “If the possibility of immigration to the West were open to you, would you immigrate or stay in the country?”
55.3 % said “I would stay”
38.3 % said “I would immigrate”
6.3 % said” I don’t know”
The poll was conducted between October 24 - 31, 2009 by Dr. Nabil Kukali. The margin of error was 3.6 %.
Since this is a Palis POLL I think that the majority would leave with the right incentives that include both honey and whip. Annex and give them the vote but contingent upon them being model citizens like paying taxes and utilities, serving in IDF or public service for 4 years. etc….! They could opt out of being citizens and becoming permanent residents or leave.
We create a Jewish Agency in reverse to help them immigrate to whoever will have them and they can have fair compensation for loss of legitimate and proven property loss if they leave willingly, if not then nothing.
Comment by yamit82 — November 10, 2009 @ 8:09 pm
Belman:
Euphemism for ejection - that is a turkey that could have taken flight in 67, 93 but in 09 it just won’t fly.
A more likely scenario is the second coming of Christ.
Comment by h peskin — November 10, 2009 @ 9:19 pm
Pesky, that’s non sense. We could offer them $100,000 per family and it would be a lot cheaper that uprooting Jewish families.
Comment by Ted Belman — November 10, 2009 @ 10:01 pm
Monday, November 09, 2009
Is a Palestinian State even Possible?
http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/
Last week Obama phoned Abbas, the chairman of the PLO terrorist organization and of the US taxpayer subsidized Palestinian Authority, which is run by the PLO. Obama’s first phone call to a foreign leader after taking office had been to Abbas, and his latest phone call was meant to reassure the terrorist leader that despite the complete lack of progress, he was still committed to creating a Palestinian state.
There is of course no question that the United States is deeply committed to creating a Palestinian state. The United States has provided billions to the PLO’s Palestinian Authority through USAID alone, and billions more through various other channels, including the UNRWA and a collection of other agencies. The first Bush Administration forced Israel to negotiate directly with the PLO. The Clinton Administration created the Palestinian Authority inside Israel, armed and trained its terrorist militias and funded them from top to bottom. Four Presidents have made creating a Palestinian state a major priority of their administrations. More so than freeing Tibet or creating a country for any particular group, not counting the Clinton Administration’s war on behalf of a Muslim Kosovar Albanian state, who rewarded us with slave trafficking, terrorism and burning down every church they could find.
The question now however is whether a Palestinian state is even possible? For one thing there is no longer a single Palestinian state, but two states, one run by Hamas in Gaza, and a second run by Abbas in the West Bank, despite the fact that his term in office legally ended around the time Obama was sworn in. The Obama Administration nevertheless continues to fund Abbas, even though under the rules that the US helped set up, he has no right to hold office without an election.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/01/obamas-first-call-to-a-foreign-leader-the-pas-mahmoud-abbas.html
Comment by yamit82 — November 10, 2009 @ 10:26 pm
TO TED BELMAN:
I’m busy with a project and have barely enough time to check headlines these days, much less to search the web. You post some very good columns, and I wonder whether you could interview some international law experts or have them write columns on the chances for the UN to walk all over international law agreements, and support a unilateral declaration of independence by the Arabs living in Yesha.
The UN is a joke - we all know that. That’s why it’s important to get expert views on how much the UN can get away with in this regard.
Justice Now For Israel http://www.justicenow4israel.com/ is doing an amazing job at fighting back using international law. Maybe they, along with other experts, could be interviewed on this subject.
I’m sure there are many others like me suffering from anxiety at the possibility that the UN, in collusion with the US and the EU, may simply install a “legitimate” Arab state on Jewish land.
Justice Now For Israel has the following question and answer.
But considering that the UN distorts anything that favors Israel, and takes its own laws and regulations as suggestions only - in how much danger is Israel now? Particularly since Obama has promised the PA that they will get their state no matter what within two or three years.
Justice Now For Israel has threatened to launch a class action suit against the US for their support for a shrunk Israel, but the US has a long history of playing dirty. The law has never deterred the US government from doing what they want.
Thanks.
Comment by Aline — November 11, 2009 @ 12:59 am
Belman:
Who is this We that you keep referring to. The Oslo agreement which is still operative prevents Israel from taking such an unilateral step,which presumably would lead to annexation.
There is no credible Israel political party, in or out of office that is considering the annexation option.
How long are we to hear about this woulda, coulda, shoulda business, that has absolutely no realistic possibility to materialize? No one has brought this up in any negotiations because it is strictly speaking a non starter.
Of course, if you wish to continue dreaming with your eyes wide open, you certainly can.
Comment by h peskin — November 11, 2009 @ 2:50 am
Yamit: When I talk about a “demilitarized Palestinian state” under my lengthy post (#8 above), I mean this in two different contexts.
One, in terms of what my proposal is about, I do not mean a demilitarized state at all, but a demilitarized zone, and this is certainly feasible with ample precedent. In other words, J&S is the DMZ between Israel and Palestinian Jordan.
Two, in terms of the contingency of calling the PA’s ‘counter-bluff’ if they call our bluff of demanding recognition, we fall back on the position of a prospective Palestinian state in J&S that has no more than police forces. This is Netanyahu’s position, it was the standard Israeli position for years, and most importantly from an immediate political perspective, it is at least nominally accepted by the relevant first-world international players - certainly and explicitly the U.S. How realistic is this? That is another matter. But violation can be treated as an act of war. The Palestinians can whine all they want about how they are asked to be a state that really isn’t a state…and the longer they beat their heads against that wall, the better the “Jordanian option” looks to everybody who tires of their complaints, the U.S. included. You may understandably balk at this last assertion with Obama in charge, but he is only going to be there three more years - trust me on this - and his successor is almost certainly going to be more receptive to Israel, intervening potential disasters notwithstanding.
As to the suggestion made elsewhere of offering $100,000 for Palestinians to leave, I submit that while such a scheme might sound attractive in theory - legal ramifications with respect to Oslo notwithstanding - in practice this cannot work. The thugs running the PA would cut the throats of any Palestinian family who would accept that money. They would be treated as collaborators. That dawg don’t hunt. Would be nice if it did, but I don’t see this happening.
I could be wrong, but upcoming events will determine this one way or the other. An Israeli friend of mine maintains that the current economic boom for the Palestinians in J&S is mitigating mightily aginst Intifada Three. Nobody wants to screw up the newly-found “good life”. Well, if Intifada Three breaks out anyway, that proves my point. If not…maybe your idea has new currency. We’ll see what unfolds.
Comment by Vinnie — November 11, 2009 @ 3:16 am
Aline, these are two worthless bodies, the UN and Obama.
Both reek with anti-Semitism.
If we can’t dismantle the UN at least let us move the headquarters out of the US. Why not in Russia, there the rouge leaders and their representatives could feel at home. New York was only a playground for them.
Israel has too much class to worry about the UN.
Comment by rongrand — November 11, 2009 @ 1:20 pm
To RONGRAND - I’m alarmed at the way things seem to be accelerating towards the creation of an Arab state. The power of the UN and Obama should not be underestimated.
A few items on today’s Israeli websites:
And this gem:
Inaction on the part of Israelis is the worst possible option right now. I say ‘Israelis’ because the government is ‘too pressured’ to react and do something to stop this onslaught, or to stop PA control of eastern Jerusalem, or to tell the US government that what they are calling for is illegal.
Comment by Aline — November 11, 2009 @ 3:51 pm
Aline:
Only in their wildest dreams, not a reality. At least not in Israel, the Holy Land.
A Palestinian state cannot exist in Israel, oil and water don’t mix and they are trying to force a square peg in a round hole.
This is a no no, this administration is off base. First Israel, the land provided by G-d for the Jews is from the River Jordan to the Mediterranean, including Gaza, Judea, Samaria and the Goalan Heights.
I mentioned here and likewise on Caroline Glicks site, Israel needs a super PR program in the U.S. The liberal left media in this country does not tell the truth. I believe a majority of Americans support Israel and would not favor a Palestinian state in Israel. Jerusalem is the capital of Israel and under no circustance should be divided.
Just go to Google world and scan the whole Middle East and ask yourself why in the world with the vast land occupied by Arabs, why would the Palestinians insist on Israel - Why, they hate Jews.
They envy the Jews for their successes and hate them as a destraction from their own failures. If it weren’t for oil most of the Arabs would still be riding around the desert on their camels looking for an oasis.
Comment by rongrand — November 11, 2009 @ 4:25 pm
Vinni here are the real facts on the ground:
Monday, November 09, 2009
Is a Palestinian State even Possible?
http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2009/11/is-palestinian-state-even-possible.html
Last week Obama phoned Abbas, the chairman of the PLO terrorist organization and of the US taxpayer subsidized Palestinian Authority, which is run by the PLO. Obama’s first phone call to a foreign leader after taking office had been to Abbas, and his latest phone call was meant to reassure the terrorist leader that despite the complete lack of progress, he was still committed to creating a Palestinian state.
There is of course no question that the United States is deeply committed to creating a Palestinian state. The United States has provided billions to the PLO’s Palestinian Authority through USAID alone, and billions more through various other channels, including the UNRWA and a collection of other agencies. The first Bush Administration forced Israel to negotiate directly with the PLO. The Clinton Administration created the Palestinian Authority inside Israel, armed and trained its terrorist militias and funded them from top to bottom. Four Presidents have made creating a Palestinian state a major priority of their administrations. More so than freeing Tibet or creating a country for any particular group, not counting the Clinton Administration’s war on behalf of a Muslim Kosovar Albanian state, who rewarded us with slave trafficking, terrorism and burning down every church they could find.
The question now however is whether a Palestinian state is even possible? For one thing there is no longer a single Palestinian state, but two states, one run by Hamas in Gaza, and a second run by Abbas in the West Bank, despite the fact that his term in office legally ended around the time Obama was sworn in. The Obama Administration nevertheless continues to fund Abbas, even though under the rules that the US helped set up, he has no right to hold office without an election.
For another thing, both the West Bank and Gaza are run by dueling militias composed of PLO and Hamas terrorists. Iran and Syria fund the Hamas militias, while the US and the EU fund the PLO militias. While Iran is more open about simply calling them terrorists, the US State Department calls them “police” and provides them with weapons and training. The militias work for whichever faction or sub-faction is paying them at the moment. In between they do “odd jobs” such as drug dealing, kidnapping and the old protection racket– a major reason why all the plans for outside investment in the PA quickly collapsed into nothing.
As of last year, the PA requested 7 billion dollars to “overhaul” its security forces to a mere 50,000 men at a rate of 23 “police” for each thousand Palestinian Arabs. That is 6 times the ratio of the NYPD. Since Oslo, the numbers have fluctuated from 40,000 to 80,000 under 14 separate police forces, which are individually loyal to different sub-factions within the PLO. And with all that “security”, there is no actual law or order to be found. That is because “Palestinian Police” was how the various PLO affiliated terrorist militias were rebranded by the Clinton Administration. Most continued to operate as terrorists carrying out attacks against Israel. The rest function as the private police of various officials within the Palestinian Authority. And much as the State Department might like to pretend otherwise, all the PA police forces are not loyal to any laws, but only to those officials who pay them and give them orders.
There is no constitutional rule of law within the PA. There isn’t even a legally elected head of the Palestinian Authority. There isn’t even a single government ruling over Gaza and the West Bank. There is no economy. As much as 25 to 50 percent of the Palestinian adult male population is employed by the Palestinian Authority, which is its own biggest employer with as many as 200,000 people out of a population of barely 2 million in the West Bank. That’s one PA employee to 10 Palestinian Arab men, women and children. It means that with 42 percent of the population under 14, virtually every Palestinian Arab family has a member who is officially employed by the Palestinian Authority. Some more than one.
And guess who pays for all this? The Palestinian Authority has never been self-supporting, it could not survive for 5 seconds without money from the United States and the European Union. The billions of dollars pumped into the PA’s coffers go down the line to various officials and their families, as well as the terrorist militias who keep them in power. Often the money has a way of vanishing, as it did in 1997 when the PA reported that 40 percent of its budget just went “missing”. The PA employment racket is not simply a bureaucratic blank check though. Jobs are given in exchange for support. The “employees” may not ever actually show up for work, but they are expected to use their tribal and family influence to back the PA leadership. And the remainder of that money goes to the tens of thousands of terrorists officially described as the police.
But we aren’t done yet, because while the largest employer in the PA may be the authority itself, the second largest employer is the UNRWA, with a 95 percent Palestinian Arab staff. The UNRWA is dedicated only to aiding Palestinian Arabs and the vast majority of its budget comes from the US and Europe. Again. The UNRWA’s employees not only overlap with those of the PLO and Hamas, but it is rife with waste spending more on Palestinian Arabs than the UNHCR does on other refugees in the world.
As for the rest of the PA economy… you just saw it. With over 50 percent unemployment in a part of the world where single income families are the norm and nearly 50 percent of the population is underage, the Palestinian economy is the American and European taxpayer. The few exceptions for the most part work in the same settlements that the world keeps demanding that Israel tear down, or across the Green Line in Israel, resulting in an unemployment spike every time there is a terrorist attack and Israel has to shut down its inner borders. There is no other economy, despite the billions invested by governments and individuals in everything from industrial parks to ready to use greenhouses, there has been no other economy, and there will be no other economy. Which should be obvious when the Palestinian Authority lists Olive-Wood Carvings and Mother-of-Pearl Souvenirs as two of its major industries. When you’re listing not just souvenirs, but a very specific type of souvenir as a major industry, you really have no economic plan except to ask other people for money.
Unlike countries like Egypt, Jordan, Israel or Turkey whom the US provides some assistance that comes out to a fraction of their budget– the United States and Europe provide all the assistance for the Palestinian Authority. That is because the PA is a sham that has done nothing but carry out terrorist attacks, deposit hundreds of millions of dollars in the Swiss bank accounts of terrorist leaders such as Yasser Arafat, and radically destabilize the region. The Palestinian Authority is not just a failure, it’s a bloody and dangerous failure, and it is time for its State Department and EU backers to finally admit the truth.
There can be no Palestinian state. And there is no future for a Palestinian state. The entire idea was created as a fallback position by the USSR after its Arab allies failed to destroy Israel in a series of wars, and transformed into a key player in international Soviet backed terrorism. With the collapse of the USSR, the US and Europe perversely embraced the idea of creating a Palestinian state and amped up the pressure on Israel to make it happen. Huge amounts of amount were spent and many lives were list in the process. Israel’s survival has been drastically undermined and the regional balance has been tilted toward the terrorists.
After the fall of the USSR, the formerly Marxist PLO has tried to make the transition to an Islamist terrorist group, but Hamas overtook it in the terrorism department. The PLO’s PA still controls the Wesr Bank propped up by US assistance, until the day that Hamas tries to take it from them. Hamas pays lip service to the propaganda of a Palestinian State, but as an Islamist group it has never really subscribed to the idea of Palestinian nationalism. Its Islamist ideology is not interested in a Two State Solution or even one state built only on the ashes of Israel… but only as a means to building a larger superstate that would include overthrowing the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan and a takeover of Lebanon too, and then perhaps merge that into a Muslim Brotherhood run Egypt for the nucleus of a regional Islamic Caliphate.
To Hamas, Gaza and the West Bank are what the Rhineland was to Hitler– territory they want only as a starting point for a much larger expansion. To the PLO, it’s a chance to create mischief and profit by it through foreign aid. Both talk a great deal about a Palestinian State, but neither care very much about it except as a propaganda tool to convince gullible Westerners to rubber stamp their demands, and convince their own people to kill themselves to restore their lost honor. The cynical game would long ago have ended if the United States and Europe stopped forcing everyone to keep playing in the hopes that all this impossible mess will somehow rearrange itself into a workable state. After 17 long years of tyranny, terror and death– maybe it’s time to finally put down the pieces and end the game.
The world doesn’t give a damn about the Pali Arabs they are after the Jews period. If I were you I would move to NZ or Micronesia because when it hits the fan America will be no more. Crazy Rantings? Maybe: but you have been warned!
Comment by yamit82 — November 11, 2009 @ 4:51 pm
Vinni here are the real facts on the ground:
Monday, November 09, 2009
Is a Palestinian State even Possible?
http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2009/11/is-palestinian-state-even-possible.html
Last week Obama phoned Abbas, the chairman of the PLO terrorist organization and of the US taxpayer subsidized Palestinian Authority, which is run by the PLO. Obama’s first phone call to a foreign leader after taking office had been to Abbas, and his latest phone call was meant to reassure the terrorist leader that despite the complete lack of progress, he was still committed to creating a Palestinian state.
There is of course no question that the United States is deeply committed to creating a Palestinian state. The United States has provided billions to the PLO’s Palestinian Authority through USAID alone, and billions more through various other channels, including the UNRWA and a collection of other agencies. The first Bush Administration forced Israel to negotiate directly with the PLO. The Clinton Administration created the Palestinian Authority inside Israel, armed and trained its terrorist militias and funded them from top to bottom. Four Presidents have made creating a Palestinian state a major priority of their administrations. More so than freeing Tibet or creating a country for any particular group, not counting the Clinton Administration’s war on behalf of a Muslim Kosovar Albanian state, who rewarded us with slave trafficking, terrorism and burning down every church they could find.
The question now however is whether a Palestinian state is even possible? For one thing there is no longer a single Palestinian state, but two states, one run by Hamas in Gaza, and a second run by Abbas in the West Bank, despite the fact that his term in office legally ended around the time Obama was sworn in. The Obama Administration nevertheless continues to fund Abbas, even though under the rules that the US helped set up, he has no right to hold office without an election.
For another thing, both the West Bank and Gaza are run by dueling militias composed of PLO and Hamas terrorists. Iran and Syria fund the Hamas militias, while the US and the EU fund the PLO militias. While Iran is more open about simply calling them terrorists, the US State Department calls them “police” and provides them with weapons and training. The militias work for whichever faction or sub-faction is paying them at the moment. In between they do “odd jobs” such as drug dealing, kidnapping and the old protection racket– a major reason why all the plans for outside investment in the PA quickly collapsed into nothing.
As of last year, the PA requested 7 billion dollars to “overhaul” its security forces to a mere 50,000 men at a rate of 23 “police” for each thousand Palestinian Arabs. That is 6 times the ratio of the NYPD. Since Oslo, the numbers have fluctuated from 40,000 to 80,000 under 14 separate police forces, which are individually loyal to different sub-factions within the PLO. And with all that “security”, there is no actual law or order to be found. That is because “Palestinian Police” was how the various PLO affiliated terrorist militias were rebranded by the Clinton Administration. Most continued to operate as terrorists carrying out attacks against Israel. The rest function as the private police of various officials within the Palestinian Authority. And much as the State Department might like to pretend otherwise, all the PA police forces are not loyal to any laws, but only to those officials who pay them and give them orders.
There is no constitutional rule of law within the PA. There isn’t even a legally elected head of the Palestinian Authority. There isn’t even a single government ruling over Gaza and the West Bank. There is no economy. As much as 25 to 50 percent of the Palestinian adult male population is employed by the Palestinian Authority, which is its own biggest employer with as many as 200,000 people out of a population of barely 2 million in the West Bank. That’s one PA employee to 10 Palestinian Arab men, women and children. It means that with 42 percent of the population under 14, virtually every Palestinian Arab family has a member who is officially employed by the Palestinian Authority. Some more than one.
And guess who pays for all this? The Palestinian Authority has never been self-supporting, it could not survive for 5 seconds without money from the United States and the European Union. The billions of dollars pumped into the PA’s coffers go down the line to various officials and their families, as well as the terrorist militias who keep them in power. Often the money has a way of vanishing, as it did in 1997 when the PA reported that 40 percent of its budget just went “missing”. The PA employment racket is not simply a bureaucratic blank check though. Jobs are given in exchange for support. The “employees” may not ever actually show up for work, but they are expected to use their tribal and family influence to back the PA leadership. And the remainder of that money goes to the tens of thousands of terrorists officially described as the police.
But we aren’t done yet, because while the largest employer in the PA may be the authority itself, the second largest employer is the UNRWA, with a 95 percent Palestinian Arab staff. The UNRWA is dedicated only to aiding Palestinian Arabs and the vast majority of its budget comes from the US and Europe. Again. The UNRWA’s employees not only overlap with those of the PLO and Hamas, but it is rife with waste spending more on Palestinian Arabs than the UNHCR does on other refugees in the world.
As for the rest of the PA economy… you just saw it. With over 50 percent unemployment in a part of the world where single income families are the norm and nearly 50 percent of the population is underage, the Palestinian economy is the American and European taxpayer. The few exceptions for the most part work in the same settlements that the world keeps demanding that Israel tear down, or across the Green Line in Israel, resulting in an unemployment spike every time there is a terrorist attack and Israel has to shut down its inner borders. There is no other economy, despite the billions invested by governments and individuals in everything from industrial parks to ready to use greenhouses, there has been no other economy, and there will be no other economy. Which should be obvious when the Palestinian Authority lists Olive-Wood Carvings and Mother-of-Pearl Souvenirs as two of its major industries. When you’re listing not just souvenirs, but a very specific type of souvenir as a major industry, you really have no economic plan except to ask other people for money.
Unlike countries like Egypt, Jordan, Israel or Turkey whom the US provides some assistance that comes out to a fraction of their budget– the United States and Europe provide all the assistance for the Palestinian Authority. That is because the PA is a sham that has done nothing but carry out terrorist attacks, deposit hundreds of millions of dollars in the Swiss bank accounts of terrorist leaders such as Yasser Arafat, and radically destabilize the region. The Palestinian Authority is not just a failure, it’s a bloody and dangerous failure, and it is time for its State Department and EU backers to finally admit the truth.
There can be no Palestinian state. And there is no future for a Palestinian state. The entire idea was created as a fallback position by the USSR after its Arab allies failed to destroy Israel in a series of wars, and transformed into a key player in international Soviet backed terrorism. With the collapse of the USSR, the US and Europe perversely embraced the idea of creating a Palestinian state and amped up the pressure on Israel to make it happen. Huge amounts of amount were spent and many lives were list in the process. Israel’s survival has been drastically undermined and the regional balance has been tilted toward the terrorists.
After the fall of the USSR, the formerly Marxist PLO has tried to make the transition to an Islamist terrorist group, but Hamas overtook it in the terrorism department. The PLO’s PA still controls the Wesr Bank propped up by US assistance, until the day that Hamas tries to take it from them. Hamas pays lip service to the propaganda of a Palestinian State, but as an Islamist group it has never really subscribed to the idea of Palestinian nationalism. Its Islamist ideology is not interested in a Two State Solution or even one state built only on the ashes of Israel… but only as a means to building a larger superstate that would include overthrowing the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan and a takeover of Lebanon too, and then perhaps merge that into a Muslim Brotherhood run Egypt for the nucleus of a regional Islamic Caliphate.
To Hamas, Gaza and the West Bank are what the Rhineland was to Hitler– territory they want only as a starting point for a much larger expansion. To the PLO, it’s a chance to create mischief and profit by it through foreign aid. Both talk a great deal about a Palestinian State, but neither care very much about it except as a propaganda tool to convince gullible Westerners to rubber stamp their demands, and convince their own people to kill themselves to restore their lost honor. The cynical game would long ago have ended if the United States and Europe stopped forcing everyone to keep playing in the hopes that all this impossible mess will somehow rearrange itself into a workable state. After 17 long years of tyranny, terror and death– maybe it’s time to finally put down the pieces and end the game.
The world doesn’t give a damn about the Pali Arabs they are after the Jews period. If I were you I would move to NZ or Micronesia because when it hits the fan America will be no more. Crazy Rantings? Maybe: but you have been warned!
Comment by yamit82 — November 11, 2009 @ 5:26 pm
Aline:
I think you ought to broaden legal action to include:
Suing the Estate of menachem Begin for ceding the whole of the Sinai
Suing the Estates of Golda Meir and Itzak Rabin for attempting to exchange Judea and Samaria for Arab recognition and a peace treaty.
Suing Bibi Net. for giving up Israeli land to Jordan in the negotiations re peace treaty with the latter.
Suing the trustees of the assets of Ariel Sharon for the decision to evacuate Gaza.
For additional information, see SaraSue, Israpundit’s Legal expert.
Comment by h peskin — November 12, 2009 @ 2:28 am
yamit:
The world cares enough for the Palis to contribute billions for their support.
Crazy rantings- shore enuff- but no crazier then your zillion other paranoid postings. But we are all quite able to adapt to your mishigas. Its not easy but we are doing it.
Comment by h peskin — November 12, 2009 @ 4:19 am
rongrand:
Why in bloody hell are you short changing Israel.You know damn well the biblical land of Israel encompassed all of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, parts of Egypt and Arabia, and southern Iraq.
That just reinforces Yamit’s argument- never trust a goy!!
Comment by h peskin — November 12, 2009 @ 4:29 am
Peskin again confirming that he is the most ignorant poster on the forum:
Here’s a nice article on the origins of this ‘international community’ support for this palistinian nationalism fraud:
http://israelite.galileo.usg.edu/israelite/search?text=husseini+arab+german&text-exclude=&text-prox=&coverage.year=
Gosh Hymie, why are you such a strong supporter of all lies and agitprop created by the 3rd Reich?
Comment by jrob — November 12, 2009 @ 5:10 am
Okay, I am game, let’s go for it.
One can only imagine the benefits that could be realized by this addition.
See Yamit, Uncle Nahum and you said peskin was clueless.
Comment by rongrand — November 12, 2009 @ 12:51 pm
There is a Judge and there is a Judgment!
Begin after his traitorous perfidy ended his life as an old babbling depressive idiot that he was. Yimach Shemo
Golda cursed by one and all thrown out of Office by the people she betrayed and died of cancer. Yimach Shema
Rabin got what was coming to him. Yimach Shemo
Sharon, a living dead vegetable, how fitting! Yimach Shemo
Every Traitorous Israeli leader who betrayed the Land of Israel, the people of Israel and the G-d of Israel met an ignoble end. More will follow! The final accounting not complete yet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7ULKE9Lv3Q&feature=related
Tehillim - Psalms - Chapter 102
Chapter 102
A prayer for a poor man when he enwraps himself and pours out his speech before the Lord
Yesh din v´yesh dayan / there will be a reckoning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zTGMp_z3cA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOngBGd2ZLc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJpXqOo8wzA&NR=1
Comment by yamit82 — November 12, 2009 @ 2:43 pm
Yamit;
Why did you post the same thing twice?
Anyway, you leave out one obvious factor: Saudi/Gulf Arab/Iranian support. Even above and beyond what the U.S./EU provide above-board, they get plenty from these other actors under the table.
But even more vital and significant is the role Saudi money has played for about the past quarter century corrupting Western academic and journalistic entities. The political pressure that results from these latter activities - reminiscent of Soviet “active measures” during the Cold War but far more widespread, sophisticated, and better funded - is the main engine behind Western support of the Pali “cause”, objectively bankrupt though it may be. Obama is the final, sickening consequence of this trajectory, but he is just the tip of the iceberg. There are legions of civilian State Dept. and CIA types about his age and younger that have been brainwashed along similar lines by our so-called “elite” academic institutions.
I know. I was born within two months of Obama. I was a U Michigan Ann Arbor when he was at Columbia. I was serving in the army when he was busy as a “community organizer”. And I was at U Chicago when he was at Harvard, and Obama later went on to teach at U Chicago, where he met his “good buddy” Rashid Khalidi. I saw first-hand the crap that passes for “debate” and “education” when it comes to the Middle East, the obviuosly Saudi-funded professors and “Chairs of Middle Eastern Studies” types - like Khalidi - that have grown like a fungus throughout academia. It is a clear arrangement: Universities always need more money, some Guld benefactor offers money for an endowment…but by the way, Mr. University President, we decide who teaches, and what is taught, in this newly created “Middle East Studies” department.
I ran into Khalidi myself while I was at U Chicago; he was a guest lecturer for one of my classes. I had to read one of his putrid books. He was a world-class jerk. This is a man who has devoted the whole of his adult professional life to the demonization and destruction of Israel…and he raised $70,000 for Obama’s first senate campaign. I don’t think he did this just because he thought Obama was a swell guy.
So I don’t doubt much of Yamit’s lengthy “paranoid rantings” in this instance. Much of what he says is likely true, except for his omission of the Saudi factor. It is a very grim picture.
The only silver lining I can see for the time being is that Obama’s star is fading fast. He’d have lost anyway - despite outspending McCain four to one - had it not been for the crash (the timing of which I suspect was engineered by the Gulf Arabs). The crash frightened an otherwise justifiably suspicious U.S. voting public (other than minorities and brainwashed college students) into voting for him. Now, they are waking up to the fact of what an incredible liar he has turned out to be.
Still, he can do a lot of damage in three years, but it is only going to be three years. At least two of his plausible replacements - Palin and Huckabee - hold out the prospect of being the most pro-Israel presidents in history, period. And I expect that WHOEVER replaces him has got to be a major improvement, at any rate. Congress, meanwhile, is still very pro-Israel in the main, despite Obama and his State Dept. allies. Bottom line, if Israel can hang in there a little while longer, the next U.S. prez will definitely put the kabash on this corrupt Saudi-backed State Dept. nonsense about “1967 lines”.
Comment by Vinnie — November 12, 2009 @ 8:12 pm
6 out of ten times I try to edit it get knocked out by the spammer, so I correct and repost hoping that Ted will catch that it is now a duplicate. Most times he does occassionally he doesn’t so it might come out in near duplicate. one with and one w/out my edit.
Comment by yamit82 — November 12, 2009 @ 8:50 pm