Lieberman: ‘Land for Peace’ is Dead’
THREE CHEERS FOR LIEBERMAN
by Hillel Fendel
(IsraelNN.com) Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, head of the Israel Our Home party, says, “It’s time to forget our obsession of “territory in exchange for peace; all future agreements must be based on ‘peace in exchange for peace.’”
Speaking at a party faction meeting on Monday, Lieberman said, “Peace is in fact our heart’s desire, but it is not more important than Israel’s existence as the state of the Jewish people or than lasting security for its citizens. We extend our hand in peace to enemies, but as long as they choose the path of war, we must be firm, return battle, and defeat the enemy. We must strive for victory instead of talking about possible compromise, interpreted as weakness by our enemies.
“Our party, Yisrael Beiteinu, believes that we must free ourselves of the obsession of peace in exchange for land. Any future agreement will be based on peace for peace, and on the conception of maximum separation of the Jewish and Arab populaces, and on a regional solution, with the participation of Egyptian and Jordan.
“Peace talks can happen only after certain basic conditions are fulfilled: Terrorism must be defeated, a partner/leader must be found who wants peace and who is able to fulfill his promises; and there must be a basic change in the educational system of the Palestinian Authority, so that instead of educating towards the destruction of Israel, it will teach peace and acceptance.”
Lieberman also briefly reviewed his long-standing proposal for a population transfer. “One idea [for a peace agreement] is to have an exchange of territories and populations,” he said, referring to Arab-populated areas such as Umm el-Fahm, just south of the Galilee, which would become part of the PA entity, while large parts of Judea and Samaria would come under total Israeli sovereignty.
“The demand upon us is to remove all Jews from Judea and Samaria, just as we did in Gush Katif – which would mean that a totally Jew-free state would arise in those areas, at the same time that Israel remains a bi-national state [with a 20 percent Arab minority]. This is not acceptable. A future solution must be symmetrical, and must not perpetuate the conflict whose very basis is the clash between two peoples.”
In a brief review of his party’s accomplishments and goals, Lieberman said that though mistakes have been made and will be made – “Only those who don’t do anything don’t make any mistakes – but in summing up this past year, when I look at our voters and at our promises, I am satisfied. There are many positive aspects of our coalition agreement, and we plan to implement them, such as the law that will enable Israelis abroad to vote – we said that within a year of the establishment of the government this legislation would be introduced, and so by April 2 we plan to do so. In addition, we agreed that within 15 months – by this coming July – laws having to do with conversion and with civil marriages are supposed to come up for vote, and the citizenship law… We can’t promise 100 percent success, but we can promise 100 percent effort; we will do all we can to fulfill all our promises to the voters.”
Some of the latter-mentioned legislative proposals are opposed by the religious establishment, and are not expected to pass in the Knesset very easily, if at all.
I love this man.
there isn´t any land to give for piece, haven´t we learned from the Oslo desaster ??
and the Gaza disengagement desaster ??
what´s in the head of these Kaddhimmis ???
air ?? waste ??
Finally!!!! If the Israeli gov would have had this position 40 years ago most the conflicts would now be behind them..
No they wouldn’t but a few thousand Israelis would be alive today and our position from A-Z would be incomparably stronger.
We may never have peace but non belligerency is as good.
Sounds good eh? This is the guy who is willing to give up most of Jerusalem and the West Banks for border altercations
placing as many Arabs outside of our jurisdiction.
Avigdor has been on both sides of any issue when it served his political ambitions or Political and personaltroubles with the law.
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Right makes might:
1. The Israeli right is becoming numerous enough to become the permanent majority.
2. But the Israeli left still dominates the media, the universities, the justice system, and the military leaders. The Israeli “supreme” court chief justice now wants to silence right-wing talkbackers on the internet, just like Obama wants to silence Fox News.
3. Netanyahu still keeps his cards close to his chest, and watches which way the wind blows.
4. He plays good cop, bad cop, using Ehud Barak as the “good” (leftist) cop, and Avigdor Lieberman as the “bad” (rightist) cop.
5. Hopefully, Israel’s next election will be so dominated by the right, that the next government can dispense altogether with the fig-leaf of Ehud Barak and Labor providng the semblance of “unity.”
He comes out with an occasional firecracker for the masses. Giving up Yerushalayim just doesn’t compute with the program he’s backing though, although I’ve never heard him endorse such an idea.The thing is, we’re so used to hearing defeatism and land for death & the division of our people that its hard not to get excited when a bone gets thrown our way.
[Sarcasm]You don’t think that its planned this way, do you?[/Sarcasm]
I love him when he’s not being stupid.
Dispensing altogether with Barak is such an appealing idea that if Hamas were to do it I would pay homage by launching Kassam rockets into Fairfax Farmer’s Market, which overcharges obscenely for produce and sells old fish.
It still exists?
Unfortunately, some of our biggest setbacks have come at the hands of supposed nationalistic leaders. Even more astounding is the fact that the Torah based parties cannot find common ground in the Torah and all pull together as a team. Moshe was the humblest of all men, it’s what made him such a great leader. This seems to be lost on all who wish to serve (or be served) today.
I don’t know about humble? The last thing Moses was commanded to do before retiring from this world was to exterminate the Midianites. As if the genocide was not enough, Moses lashed out against the Jews: “How dare you to leave all women alive?… Now kill all the male children, and every woman who knew a husband.”
Still, the Torah calls Moses “the humblest man.” Could a humble man preside over genocide? The answer is a definite yes. Moses’ humility was his entire submission to divine will. A tremendous erosion of the concept took place afterward:
Jewish humility came to mean submission to people, even down to enemies and oppressors. Whatever his own views, Moses entirely accepted G-d’s definition of morality.
Divine decrees set the standard of morality, and anything G-d told him to do was moral by definition. Even genocide was moral when perpetrated on divine orders.
Modern Jews should not shrink from the explicit commandment to cleanse the land G-d gave us of its hostile inhabitants.
Only until Hamas dispenses with Barak.
I will miss DuPars, which serves a killer chicken pot pie.
Collateral damage is so sad.
Right on the money! Thank you for that. If only those that wished to serve today would be humble in this way. It’s funny how events that are viewed through man’s prism, always have so many “gray” areas. The same events viewed through Torah’s prism leave a black and white impression.
I used to live on that. can’t get here unless you make it yourself.
I loved their dutch apple pie with whipped cream. What fond memories you are giving me. I almost forgot about DuPars.
Not my version of the Torah. Mine has so many layered nuances it is anything but black and white.
That’s why we got a Talmud; to make sure those gray nuances remain gray.
Nice dream, but a dream all the same.
Assuming Lieberman means to include Israeli exclusive sovereignty over all of Jerusalem and most of J & S while having Egypt and Jordan agree to the immigration of Palestinians to their nations, is a non-starter for the Palestinians and the whole of the Muslim Middle East.
The 2 state solution is the only basis for settlement discussions, even though it has proven to be no basis for a settlement.
That said, I think it not such a bad idea to throw the idea into the ring of ideas and see whether there are any takers in Israel, both in government and the electorate. It would also be good to guage the negative reaction which I expect would be apoplectic.
Should have happened in 1967, but better late than never.
Somebody (Arab) blathered about “justice for the Palestinians.” If the Palestinians got real justice instead of mercy, two thirds of them would be dead but the remaining innocent third would not then have to deal with security checkpoints or violence from the two thirds that were dead.
Re:
If something like this happened, it would not be something of which I would really want to remind the world; it is worse than what the Nazis did to Lidice. On the other hand, it is no worse than what the ancient Hebrews’ contemporaries like the Romans, Greeks, and Assyrians did to their neighbors, e.g. what Athens did to the Melians and what Rome did to Carthage.
I could envision “justifiable genocide” as the counterpart of justifiable homicide, in which it is necessary to wipe an enemy out to the last man, woman, and child if that is what it takes to save your own people. As an example, had the Jews (or Poles, or Gypsies) developed an “ethnic bomb” to use Jeremiah Wright’s words that would have killed all German Gentiles, they would have been justified in using it during but not after the Holocaust. (In practice, of course, such a weapon would have killed many Jews and Poles of mixed ancestry–Prussia was once part of Poland!) Israel would probably have been justified in using such a weapon on the invading Arab hordes in 1948 when it was reasonable to believe that said hordes would in fact kill or enslave all the Jews; a “them or us situation.”
The concept comes up more frequently in science fiction, where it is necessary to blow up the other side’s planet including its noncombatants to save one’s own. Heinlein’s “Puppet Masters” ends with a counterattack on the aliens’ planet, with the protagonist declaring, “Puppet masters, the free men are coming to kill you!” Genocide of the race that attempted to enslave all of Humanity is clearly the objective and, in light of the story’s premise, reasonable and necessary: “Them or us.” In the movie version of Starship Troopers, a man who is about to have his brain sucked out by an arachnid says, “Some day, somebody like me is going to come along and wipe out your entire &!(&@(! race.”
The Midianites however, posed no existential threat to the ancient Hebrews after their army was destroyed, so there was no excuse for what then followed.
Levinson, it has to do with the prohibition against intermarriage.
Moses took a wife from among them and recorded Jewish laws on the advice of his father-in-law, a pagan priest. The Jewish attitude toward the Midian wife, Zipporah, was negative: Moses had to send her away before embarking on the Exodus mission. Likewise, Moses’ family rejected his other wife, a Nubian. His children by Zipporah did not inherit his authority and do not figure prominently in the Tanakhic chronicles.
Even converted gentile women were not good enough for Jewish leaders.
There was a continuous intermingling between Jews and Midians. Some Midians lived among Jews and were so intimate that Moses refused to let them go, lest they reveal significant military information to enemies.
Many Jewish men had relations with Midian women, prompting Pinchas to assassinate one of them (a shiksah_) along with his Midian wife.
Pinchas’ action, the murder of a nice interfaith family, earned him eternal blessing from G-d himself.
Hebrews, a deeply polygamous society, inherently lacked enough Jewish wives and therefore often intermarried. Like Moses, many Hebrews had married Midianites. The solution was found in genocide: once all other Midianites were exterminated, those who had married Jews automatically became rootless and honestly embraced Jewishness as their only possible identity.
The transgression was Jewish, so why kill the Midians? Here lies a concept of immense importance for modern Israel: G-d doesn’t expect Jews to be perfect. Other nations are exterminated for their transgressions, but not Jews. The Torah is explicit that the Canaanites lost their land because of their transgressions, but Jews would return there after having been dispersed. The Exile has ended and Israel reestablished not because of Jews’ merits—we don’t merit that much—but only because G-d has a purpose for Jews. We’re his instrument, experimental mice if you wish. He realizes his divine plans through us. Whatever happens to our enemies is not for our sake,Hebrews, a deeply polygamous society, inherently lacked enough Jewish wives and therefore often intermarried. Like Moses, many Hebrews had married Midianites. The solution was found in genocide: once all other Midianites were exterminated, those who had married Jews automatically became rootless and honestly embraced Jewishness as their only possible identity.
The transgression was Jewish, so why kill the Midians? Here lies a concept of immense importance for modern Israel: God doesn’t expect Jews to be perfect. Other nations are exterminated for their transgressions, but not Jews. The Torah is explicit that the Canaanites lost their land because of their transgressions, but Jews would return there after having been dispersed. The Exile has ended and Israel reestablished not because of Jews’ merits—we don’t merit that much—but only because God has a purpose for Jews. We’re his instrument, experimental mice if you wish. He realizes his divine plans through us. Whatever happens to our enemies is not for our sake,Hebrews, a deeply polygamous society, inherently lacked enough Jewish wives and therefore often intermarried. Like Moses, many Hebrews had married Midianites. The solution was found in genocide: once all other Midianites were exterminated, those who had married Jews automatically became rootless and honestly embraced Jewishness as their only possible identity.
The transgression was Jewish, so why kill the Midians? Here lies a concept of immense importance for modern Israel: God doesn’t expect Jews to be perfect. Other nations are exterminated for their transgressions, but not Jews. The Torah is explicit that the Canaanites lost their land because of their transgressions, but Jews would return there after having been dispersed. The Exile has ended and Israel reestablished not because of Jews’ merits—we don’t merit that much—but only because God has a purpose for Jews. We’re his instrument, experimental mice if you wish. He realizes his divine plans through us. Whatever happens to our enemies is not for our sake,Hebrews, a deeply polygamous society, inherently lacked enough Jewish wives and therefore often intermarried. Like Moses, many Hebrews had married Midianites. The solution was found in genocide: once all other Midianites were exterminated, those who had married Jews automatically became rootless and honestly embraced Jewishness as their only possible identity.
The transgression was Jewish, so why kill the Midians? Here lies a concept of immense importance for modern Israel: G-d doesn’t expect Jews to be perfect. Other nations are exterminated for their transgressions, but not Jews. The Torah is explicit that the Canaanites lost their land because of their transgressions, but Jews would return there after having been dispersed. The Exile has ended and Israel reestablished not because of Jews’ merits—we don’t merit that much—but only because G-d has a purpose for Jews. We’re his instrument, experimental mice if you wish. He realizes his divine plans through us. Whatever happens to our enemies is not for our sake,but for his.
Even ruled by crooks and socialists, Israel is not an accident, but a part of the divine plan laid out in prophecies.
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Levinson, it has to do with the prohibition against intermarriage.
Moses took a wife from among them and recorded Jewish laws on the advice of his father-in-law, a pagan priest. The Jewish attitude toward the Midian wife, Zipporah, was negative: Moses had to send her away before embarking on the Exodus mission. Likewise, Moses’ family rejected his other wife, a Nubian. His children by Zipporah did not inherit his authority and do not figure prominently in the Tanakhic chronicles.
Even converted gentile women were not good enough for Jewish leaders.
There was a continuous intermingling between Jews and Midians. Some Midians lived among Jews and were so intimate that Moses refused to let them go, lest they reveal significant military information to enemies.
Many Jewish men had relations with Midian women, prompting Pinchas to assassinate one of them (a shiksah_) along with his Midian wife.
Pinchas’ action, the murder of a nice interfaith family, earned him eternal blessing from God himself.
Hebrews, a deeply polygamous society, inherently lacked enough Jewish wives and therefore often intermarried. Like Moses, many Hebrews had married Midianites. The solution was found in genocide: once all other Midianites were exterminated, those who had married Jews automatically became rootless and honestly embraced Jewishness as their only possible identity.
The transgression was Jewish, so why kill the Midians? Here lies a concept of immense importance for modern Israel: G-d doesn’t expect Jews to be perfect. Other nations are exterminated for their transgressions, but not Jews. The Torah is explicit that the Canaanites lost their land because of their transgressions, but Jews would return there after having been dispersed. The Exile has ended and Israel reestablished not because of Jews’ merits—we don’t merit that much—but only because G-d has a purpose for Jews. We’re his instrument, experimental mice if you wish. He realizes his divine plans through us. Whatever happens to our enemies is not for our sake,Hebrews, a deeply polygamous society, inherently lacked enough Jewish wives and therefore often intermarried. Like Moses, many Hebrews had married Midianites. The solution was found in genocide: once all other Midianites were exterminated, those who had married Jews automatically became rootless and honestly embraced Jewishness as their only possible identity.
The transgression was Jewish, so why kill the Midians? Here lies a concept of immense importance for modern Israel: God doesn’t expect Jews to be perfect. Other nations are exterminated for their transgressions, but not Jews. The Torah is explicit that the Canaanites lost their land because of their transgressions, but Jews would return there after having been dispersed. The Exile has ended and Israel reestablished not because of Jews’ merits—we don’t merit that much—but only because God has a purpose for Jews. We’re his instrument, experimental mice if you wish. He realizes his divine plans through us. Whatever happens to our enemies is not for our sake,Hebrews, a deeply polygamous society, inherently lacked enough Jewish wives and therefore often intermarried. Like Moses, many Hebrews had married Midianites. The solution was found in genocide: once all other Midianites were exterminated, those who had married Jews automatically became rootless and honestly embraced Jewishness as their only possible identity.
The transgression was Jewish, so why kill the Midians? Here lies a concept of immense importance for modern Israel: God doesn’t expect Jews to be perfect. Other nations are exterminated for their transgressions, but not Jews. The Torah is explicit that the Canaanites lost their land because of their transgressions, but Jews would return there after having been dispersed. The Exile has ended and Israel reestablished not because of Jews’ merits—we don’t merit that much—but only because God has a purpose for Jews. We’re his instrument, experimental mice if you wish. He realizes his divine plans through us. Whatever happens to our enemies is not for our sake,Hebrews, a deeply polygamous society, inherently lacked enough Jewish wives and therefore often intermarried. Like Moses, many Hebrews had married Midianites. The solution was found in genocide: once all other Midianites were exterminated, those who had married Jews automatically became rootless and honestly embraced Jewishness as their only possible identity.
The transgression was Jewish, so why kill the Midians? Here lies a concept of immense importance for modern Israel: G-d doesn’t expect Jews to be perfect. Other nations are exterminated for their transgressions, but not Jews. The Torah is explicit that the Canaanites lost their land because of their transgressions, but Jews would return there after having been dispersed. The Exile has ended and Israel reestablished not because of Jews’ merits—we don’t merit that much—but only because G-d has a purpose for Jews. We’re his instrument, experimental mice if you wish. He realizes his divine plans through us. Whatever happens to our enemies is not for our sake,but for his.
Even ruled by crooks and socialists, Israel is not an accident, but a part of the divine plan laid out in prophecies.
At this stage of the discussion it becomes essential to emphasize that Tina (Blacker) Louise is definitely one of the Tribe.
Really? We practiced the Don’t ask don’t tell policy. Never came up. Now it doesn’t much matter. I saw the photos of her today. That wasn’t MY Tina.
No wonder she left you.
What can I say, I lost her to a Bobby Sherman wannabe and look a like.
Even Bobby Sherman isn’t a Bobby Sherman wannabe.
Who knew in those days? Call me gullible!!
I’m not talking about the micro level, Hillel / Shammai stuff. I’m talking about doing what’s right on the big picture level. I see parties that are supposedly Torah based voting to support or not to support measures that clearly go against the grain of what the Torah directs, in order to get something they want on another vote or to maintain the coalition they’re in. Vote on the right side of what G-d commands every time.
Shalom Yoni,
And still, Avigdor is much better than Wilders…
What Avigdor thinks is quite obsolete, since his entire ministery is opposed to him, eagerly awaiting his fall in order to restart OPENLY the Beilin-Peres-Barak-Livni agenda, an agenda which they anyway already today persue, but less openly.
Not sure I fully understand what you are trying to say.
Give some clear examples.
Geerts believes we Jews should all become Catholic, make no mistake about it
he is on our side………..for now