The real Srebrenica Genocide
[NOTE: About 18 months ago Nathan Pearlstein, Robert Peter North and Felix Quigley began educating Israpundit readers as to the truth about the fighting in Serbia. As a result we came to understand that the US was at fault and the Serbs were innocent.]
Introduction by Nathan Pearlstein
Why are the mainstream Western media, the US administrations under George W. Bush and Bill Clinton as well as the governments of NATO and the EU covering up this monumental crime against humanity?
Why are the Serbs - whom apart from the Jews were the major victims of the Holocaust during World War 2 - being cast as the perpetrators of genocide while the real perpetrators of genocide - the Islamofascists loyal to Alija Izetbegovic - are being cast by the corporate media, the US, NATO and EU governments as “the victims”?
Why was Naser Oric - the Islamofascist commander of Srebrenica and perpetrator of a massive genocide against Serbian men, women and children in Srebrenica from 1992 to 1995 - given only a 2 year sentence for this monumental crime against humanity and allowed to walk free from NATO’s Scheveningen ICTY prison: the former Nazi SS dungeon for patriotic Dutch resistance fighters against the Germans during World War 2 in The Hague, Holland?
Our dear friend and colleague at 4International, Peter Robert North, has graciously allowed us to reproduce in full his outstanding work here on what really happened in Srebrenica and Gorazde from 1992 to 1995. A revelation of truth which is of enormous historical significance and importance to all good people across the globe but especially for all patriotic Jewish people in Israel and the diaspora.
We all remember the Western media hoaxes and fakery concerning the events in Jenin and Qana recently and how these media frauds were used to demonize Israel and the Jewish people. So it is absolutely crucial that we also expose the Western media fraud concerning the events in Srebrenica, Bosnia in July, 1995, in order to reveal just how corrupt and dishonest the Western media, the US, NATO and EU Imperialist governments are when they turn the world upside down by demonizing the victims of a massacre in order to prop up the Islamofascist perpetrators, thereby creating new independent Islamist states for the Islamofascists (as the US, NATO and EU are doing right now in Kosovo on behalf of the Islamofascist terrorist group: the KLA).
The following article, my dear readers, is the horrific truth about what happened to the Serb civilians of Srebrenica and Gorazde - a shocking truth which the Fascist Left supporters of Hamas and PLO/Fatah, as well as the pro-NATO Imperialist cowards on British website “Harry’s Place” - especially Oliver Kamm and Marko Attila Hoare - are so desperate to hide from the people of the world.
The following is a dire warning to us all! We ignore this at our own peril.
By Peter Robert North
The real Srebrenica Genocide not reported by the corrupt, racist pro-Islamist-Nazi Western corporate-controlled media, was the brutal mass murder - using axes, knives, daggers, sledgehammers, iron bars, flamethrowers and explosives - of 3,870 Serbian elderly men, women and young children in and around the town of Srebrenica and its adjoining towns and villages(Bratunac,Skelani,Milici, et al) as well as the town of Gorazde.
Bosnian Muslim military forces from Srebrenica killed Bosnian Serb Milan Vujicic, mutilated his body, and then roasted his corpse.
The body of Bosnian Serb civilian Kostadinka Grcic, executed by Bosnian Muslim forces by stabbing her in the chest.
The body of Milica Saric, who was murdered by Bosnian Muslim forces in Kalinovik with 30 other Bosnian Serb civilians.
On right, the body of 15 year-old Bosnian Serb Slobodan Mastilo, who was murdered by Bosnian Muslim forces in the Foca region.
The bodies of Ranko Sekulovic, left, and his wife, Radenka, 30, executed and mutilated by Bosnian Muslim Territorial Defense forces on September 13, 1992 in Foca. Bosnian Muslim troops murdered the entire Sekulovic family.
These little Serbs, Predrag and Danka Sekulovic, were slain with their parents on Sep. 13, 1992 by Bosnian Muslims in the village of Bakic on the road to Foca. He was 7, she was 4.
A Bosnian Serb mother grieves over her child - brutally murdered by Izetbegovic’s and Oric’s Islamist troops.
A Bosnian Serb mother grieves over her loved ones - brutally murdered by Izetbegovic’s/Oric’s Islamist troops.
Bosnian Serb family members grieve over their dead loved ones - brutally murdered by Izetbegovic’s/Oric’s Islamist troops.
The Milici Massacre, south of Srebrenica. Bosnian Muslim troops executed Bosnian Serbs and mutilated their bodies. On left, Ljubomir Jurosevic had his right eye cut out by Bosnian Muslim soldiers and his neck and chest showed signs of knife wounds.On right, the mutilated body of Bosnian Serb Dimitrije Alempic from Rogosije, who was executed by Bosnian Muslim soldiers. His body was mutilated and burned.
The bodies of two Bosnian Serbs in eastern Bosnia. On the right, a charred body of Zdravo Eric, who was killed and his body burned. Before burning him, Muslims took out the heart of this Christian as a sign of Islamic piety.
The body of a Bosnian Serb from Sarajevo, who was killed, mutilated, and burned. His body was thrown in the Miljacka river by Bosnian Muslim forces.
The corpse of Bosnian Serb civilian Radivoje Lukic, 59. The Bosnian Muslim paramilitaries “The Mosque Doves” or “Dzamijski Golubovi”, murdered him with an axe to the head on October 8, 1992 in Klisa.
The Bosnian Muslim paramilitaries “The Mosque Doves” or “Islamski Golubovi”, murdered two elderly Bosnian Serb women near Zvornik north of Srebrenica.
Top, bodies of elderly Bosnian Serbs executed by the Bosnian Muslim paramilitary group The Mosque Doves, or Djamijski Golubovi near Zvornik in eastern Bosnia. The Mosque Doves executed 25 Bosnian Serb civilians. Left bottom, Bosnian Muslim forces crushed his skull with an axe, exposing his brain. Right bottom, the body of an elderly Bosnian Serb woman who was murdered by Bosnian Muslim forces.
Bosnian Serb civilian Zdravko Eric executed, burned and mutilated by the Bosnian Muslim paramilitary group Mosque Doves, Djamijski Golubovi, under Midhat Grahic fron Zvornik.
Srebrenica/Zvornik region: The body of a Bosnian Serb boy murdered by Naser Oric’s forces in the Srebrenica pocket in eastern Bosnia.
The body of Bosnian Serb Milovan Kovacevic whose body was mutilated and burned by Bosnian Muslim forces in Rogosije.
The decapitated head of Bosnian Serb farmer Pero Makic, who was executed by Bosnian Muslim/Croat forces in the northeastern Bosnian city of Brcko on June 22, 1992. His head was placed on a pitch-fork and a cigarette was placed in his mouth. One of the forks of the pitch-fork was stabbed in his eye. This is a photo that was censored and suppressed in the West and the US.
The decapitated head and torso of Bosnian Serb Miladin Asceric, who was executed and decapitated by Bosnian Muslim forces north of Srebrenica, in the town of Kamenica.
Sarajevo: The body of Bosnian Serb Nenad Beribaka. The Bosnian Muslim forces mutilated his body after killing him by extracting his brain.
Sarajevo: The body of a Bosnian Serb. Bosnian Muslim forces murdered and mutilated him by smashing his skull open.
A Serb soldier who was captured by the Muslims, skewered on a spear and exhibited in front of a hotel. “He stayed alive for a few days,” said a Serbian journalist. That set off wild rumors throughout Bosnian Serb-held territories.
Burned remains of Milomir Prodanovic, a Serb from Podravnje near Milici, Bosnia.
(From: “The Suppressed Serbian Voice And The Free Press In America” By William Dorich, 1994 - pp 20, 22.)
The mutilated body of Velo Majstorovic, who was tortured, killed, circumcized, and burned alive by Bosnian Muslim forces in Milici in eastern Bosnia, southwest of Srebrenica.
First massacre in Bosnia: March 26, 1992, Croat and Bosnian Muslim forces executed, mutilated, and beheaded 20 Bosnian Serb civilians in Sijekovac near Bosanski Brod. An 85 year Bosnian Serb was executed and then burned inside his house. The decapitated and mutilated corpses of Bosnian Serbs murdered in northern Bosnia near Brod.
As above, Bosnian Serbs brutally tortured, mutilated and murdered by Izetbegovic’s/Oric’s Islamist troops in Sijekovac near Bosanski Brod.
Photo 1) Saudi/Afghan-Arab mujahedeen with decapitated heads of Bosnian Serb POWs in 1992. Al-Qaeda funded and organized these early terrorist attacks against Bosnian Serbs.
Photo 2)Saudi/Afghan-Arab mujahedeen with decapitated heads of Bosnian Serb POWs in 1992. Al-Qaeda funded and organized these early terrorist attacks against Bosnian Serbs.
Saudi/Afghan-Arab mujahedeen holding the decapitated head of a Bosnian Serb POW who was executed and decapitated in central Bosnia in 1992.
Previous photo enlarged. The head of a Serb, Blagoje Blagojevic, held by an Arab Saudi/Afghan ‘Jihad’ fighter in Crni Vrh, Bosnia, 1992.
Previous 3 photos above) Alija Izetbegovic’s 10,000 strong Islamist fundamentalist “El Mujahedeen Unit” in Zenica, Bosnia on parade with green banners on their heads which read: “Our path is the Jihad” written in Arabic script.
See related articles,“Moderate Democrat or Radical Islamist? Who is Alija Izetbegovic, the man the US sponsored in Bosnia?”
http://www.hirhome.com/yugo/ihralija1.htm
“What really happened in Bosnia? Were the Serbs the criminal aggressors, as the official story claims, or were they the victims?”
http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/deja.htm
What is this monument inscribed in Arabic script doing in Srebrenica (Potocari village), Bosnia? What is ex-president of the United States, Bill Clinton, doing here at the unveiling of this Arabic-inscribed monument dedicated to fallen al Qaeda Mujahedeen fighters in Srebrenica-Potocari, Bosnia? Why is Clinton bowing to this monument?
For the answers to these disturbing questions, see the articles
“Clinton opens a monument dedicated to Al Qaeda fighters and bows to it!”
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It appeared that the OHR wanted the statement issued before the opening of a Muslim monument — essentially a shrine which was being promoted as a site for annual Muslim pilgrimages from around the world — memorializing the radical Islamist allegations about events in Srebrenica to occur on September 19, 2003. The unveiling of the monument would be attended by former US Pres. William Clinton, and “finalizing” the Srebrenica case would help stop the ongoing wave of allegations of illegal Clinton Administration activity in supporting radical Islamist activities in Bosnia during the 1990s. This is particularly critical given the fact that a significant number of the Islamist terrorists involved in the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on the United States had strong links into the Bosnian Muslims whom Clinton had supported.
The US Embassy in Sarajevo donated $1-million to the construction of the “shrine”, even though all proper investigations of the Srebrenica affair in fact showed the Islamists’ claims to be unsubstantiated and, in many respects, without foundation at all.
Recent information emerging from Bosnia-Herzegovina, and particularly from the RS investigations into the Srebrenica affair and other aspects of terrorism in the region, have highlighted the fact that the Clinton Administration had, during the war, facilitated the Islamist terrorist activities because of the Clinton Administration’s need to demonize the Serbs in order to provide a casus belli for US-led military actions in the area to distract from domestic US political problems. Significantly, when the Muslim representatives involved in building the “shrine” in Srebrenica approached New York Mayor Michael Blumberg to establish a sister-city relationship with New York, the Mayor refused, based on intelligence showing the link between the Bosnian Islamists and the al-Qaida attacks on his city.
Amb. Hays’ two-page document was expected to lead to a statement, possibly as early as September 8, 2003, by RS officials, which would not only serve to protect the Clinton Administration officials, including the former US President, but would also serve as an admission of guilt of Serbs for killing thousands of Muslims who, in fact, were not known to have been killed. Several hundred bodies have been found as a result of the fighting in and around Srebrenica, but the Islamists and their supporters have claimed figures which grow higher with each telling, with figures now claiming some 15,000 alleged deaths. At the same time, there is no acknowledgement of the Muslim killing of thousands of Serbs at Srebrenica earlier in the war, when the city was supposed to have been a demilitarized zone.
http://128.121.186.47/ISSA/reports/Balkan/Sep0803.htm
Self-confessed mass murderer of Serbian civilians, Naser Oric, at the NATO owned ICTY in The Hague, Netherlands just prior to him being given a 2 year sentence by NATO for mass murder in Srebrenica.
Thousands of Bosnian Muslims (”Bosniaks”) gather at Sarajevo airport to welcome their “hero”, Alija Izetbegovic’s Islamist Nazi self-confessed mass murderer of Serbs in Srebrenica, Naser Oric.
Below quotes excerpted from the Canadian Toronto Star newspaper article: “A Reporter’s Account of an Evening Spent with Nasir Oric, the Muslim Commander in Srebrenica”Original title:
“Fearsome Muslim warlord eludes Bosnian Serb forces”
Toronto Star, July 16, 1995 By Bill Schiller
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On a cold and snowy night, I sat in his living room watching a shocking video version of what might have been called Nasir Oric’s Greatest Hits. There were burning houses, dead bodies, severed heads, and people fleeing.
Oric grinned throughout, admiring his handiwork.“We ambushed them,” he said when a number of dead Serbs appeared on the screen. The next sequence of dead bodies had been done in by explosives:“We launched those guys to the moon,” he boasted.
When footage of a bullet-marked ghost town appeared without any visible bodies, Oric hastened to announce: “We killed 114 Serbs there.”
Later there were celebrations, with singers with wobbly voices chanting his praises.
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Visit 4International for the balance of this important article.
Please advise: I know nothing about this particular topic, what can I read and in what order as first steps (emphasis on a beginners’ beginners approach) to learning about what happened in Serbia? Thank you.
Comment by soren — February 15, 2008 @ 12:55 pm
Look at anything Julia Gorin wrote on Kosovo
Or go here
http://www.hirhome.com/yugo/guide-yugo.htm
Comment by Ted Belman — February 15, 2008 @ 1:17 pm
You can also search Israpundit for “Kosovo” or “Gorin”
We are having some trouble with our links but if so let me know.
Comment by Ted Belman — February 15, 2008 @ 1:23 pm
The Serbs are Christians who were attacked by America under Clinton. They are the people to whom the Apostle Paul first went with the Christian gospel. If America has Judeo-Christian roots (and that is questionable because Freemason deceivers were at work from the start) then it should stand with Jews and Christians, not Muslims. The last time these links were up there was a photo of Clinton, a Marxist globalist, worshipping at the grave of a dead Muslim in Serbia. Does anyone have that photo?
See photos at this link.
On June 4, 2001, I had a dream which turned out to be prophetic. I heard the word “Sarajevo” and knew people were crying. I then saw a mop standing straight up and then it was laying flat and I heard the words “a smokin’ hole in the ground.” I also heard the word “Pride.”
America errs when it acts as though it is the right arm of God. If corrupt American politicians messed with innocent people in Sarajevo, and those people cried out to God, Who hears the cries of the poor and needy, and avenges them……more than towers could yet fall. That is just the basic Golden Rule: Do unto others as you would have done unto you…pressed down, shaken together, multiplied, etc.
Of course the Towers fell September 11, 2001.
The photos were originally on http://emperors-clothes.com or http://www.tenc.net/
Comment by Teshuvah — February 15, 2008 @ 9:49 pm
Click on this link and see if you can find Bosnia on this 1952 map. The UN divided up the world in 1952 or earlier. Click this for article.
Comment by Teshuvah — February 15, 2008 @ 9:59 pm
Because the Kosovo Albanians are about to declare “independence” from Serbia this weekend, and the US and much of the EU intend to illegally recognize it, it is important to realize how Jews are once again being used to justify this.
There have been several articles lately in Haaretz, spouting praise for Kosovo’s war criminal Prime Minister, Hashim Thaci. Finally culminating in this article on the Foreign Policy blog unbelievably remarking that Haaretz called Thachi “the Ben Gurion of Kosovo”! This is sheer lunacy! Thaci’s Albanians drove every last Jew out of Kosovo and Haaretz compares him to “Ben Gurion”? This is absolutely crazy!
Comment by Bokababe — February 15, 2008 @ 11:07 pm
Thanks for the information.
Comment by soren — February 16, 2008 @ 1:22 am
Here’s more about what happened Kosovo since the 1999 Bombing I will admit that Serbs are proud, naive and sometimes stupid. They keep thinking that they can handle this on their own and not ask for help — they have no clue how to manipulate public opinion, and too often assume that if they play by the rules and deal in good faith, they can win with the truth. But that is not the way of the world –especially a world spinning out of control with no rules except raw power — and these days, “oil” is raw power. Unfortunately for both Serbia and Israel, they have no oil.
Comment by Bokababe — February 16, 2008 @ 3:13 am
There are horrific images that Peter Robert North put together quite some time ago in this article in his own site, and that we felt we had to run as well on our site at 4international. I have always had difficulty in looking at these images but still feel it is right to place them on our site, as Ted has now done on Israpundit. The important thing for me is that these were ordinary, mostly poor small farming people who lived in isolated homesteads, and that involved in their murder was a coalition of forces. The link by Bokababe above to the gentlemen in Washington etc in their suits is very apt, it may have been the Islamist savages inported into Bosnia by Izetbegovic who did these deeds but this again was orchestrated by the US and EU ruling classes, for their own strategic political interests. The images jerk us out of our daily complacency and teach that just by doing nothing life is not going to be gentle to any people.
I see this as the future also facing Israel. In Serbia there was an atrocious ruling class that betrayed Milosevic to the Hague Court where he was poisoned eventually by NATO. This is the ruling class which is in power at this very moment also.
In Israel there is a similar traitorous ruling class with actually very similar roots. People refer to Olmert etc as being Leftists. In fact they are a particular type, based on the Stalinist Communist Party and the reformist Labour Party. The word Leftist as used by Steven Plaut is very confusing because there was another political current, that of Trotskyism, and there is really a river of blood between Labour reformnist and Stalinism on the one hand, and Trotskyism on the other.
Steven Plaut is a very intelligent man but he does not really want to understand this. Ideology is a strong force.
These horrific images were caused really by NATO but it is the direction things are heading with Olmert. As Ted advised yesterday NATO is planning with the help of Olmert’s abuse of the IDF to move into Gaza and Judea and Samaria and the same kinds of massacres could well follow. Because in Serbia NATO was the promoter and guardian of the Islamist savages.
There is really no choice for Jews in this American election. Between McCain, Clinton and Obama there really is no choice for Jews. In fact McCain may be the very worst because he was the very worst in Serbia and these images are very much the result of his politics. McCain is above all a NATO man. Please dear Jewish friends do not be led astray on this.
Nathan Pearlstein put in very hard work dealing with code etc which I do not understand to put these onto Wordpress. Thank you Nathan and these must be an inspiration and a warning.
Comment by Felix Quigley — February 16, 2008 @ 7:23 am
Peter Robert North posted links in his comments about Serbia on these threads:
Israpundit » How the U.S. & Iran have Cooperated to Sponsor Muslim Terror
Israpundit » Islamofascist: Unveiled women are “uncovered meat”
Israpundit » What is a ‘moderate’ Muslim?
Israpundit » THE POPE, ISLAM, THE EU AND TURKEY
Israpundit » The views of Franjo Tudjman, darling of the West, on the Holocaust and other matters
http://www.israpundit.com/2006/?p=3480
Comment by Teshuvah — February 16, 2008 @ 7:48 am
In his introduction to the work of Robert Peter North that presents evidence that condemns America and Europe for perpetuating a big lie that during the Balkan wars of the 1990’s, it was the Serbs who were the evil villains and the Muslims the innocents, when in fact the opposite was true, Nathan Pearlstein states:
With America and the EU standing poised to recognize an independent state of Kosovo, which the ethnic Albanians of the region are within a month expected to declare, the significance of this “truth” will not change the course of history that is galloping forward, but will be left for historians to discuss and consider.
Kosovo’s independence appears to be a done deal that awaits only formal recognition which is certain to come, barring unforseen unimaginable circumstances. With Kosovo being about 90% Muslim, there already is a de facto separate state of Kosovo.
With her ties to America, Israel is hardly about to stand against America on this issue and instead stand with Russia’s Vladimir Putin who declared last month that for America and the EU to recognize an independent state of Kosovo would be illegal and immoral.
I disagree with Nathan’s above quoted statement.
Whether Israeli or diaspora Jews come out in favor or disfavor of an independent state of Kosovo is not an issue of patriotism at all, leaving aside the question of, to whom does Nathan say Jews owe their patriotism on this issue.
There is no special obligation for Israelis or Jews borne of patriotism to weigh into this issue on the side of the Serbs and against the Albanian Muslims.
There is however a special obligation borne of patriotism for Serbs the world over to come together to stand against Kosovo’s independence from Serbia and America and the EU that are rushing forward to see that this happens.
At best, Jews or at least some might feel a moral obligation to stand by the Serbs on this issue, but the problem with that is two fold, being that Israel, because of her ties with America is constrained from taking such a position and more significantly, it does not appear that there are any Serbs for Jews to stand beside on this issue.
For whatever reasons, the Serbs in the aftermath of the Balkan wars of the 1990’s, have consistently failed themselves to take a stand against the big lie Robert Peter North and Nathan Pearlstein say the Albanian Muslims, with the aid of America and the EU have perpetuated and continue to perpetuate and against the Muslim Albanians efforts, with the support of America and the EU, to break away from Serbia to form their own independent state of Kosovo.
Since the Serbs have not and will not stand up for themselves, it is simply unreasonable for Robert Peter North and Nathan Pearlstein to contend that Israeli and diaspora Jews should be standing up for them and advocate both against the big lie and its perpetuation and the legitimization of an independent state of Kosovo.
It is of course worth noting in sadness that the world’s Serbs have failed to stand up for themselves as regards these issues, but nonetheless it is a fact that Robert Peter North and Nathan Pearlstein, regardless of how difficult it is for them, must come to grips with.
If their “truth” is true and they certainly make a compelling case in that regard, that their “truth” has not reached the world soon enough it appears to be able to keep the Bosnian Muslims from declaring an independent state of Kosovo with the blessings of America and the EU, is just one more of a great many instances in history and in our times that proves life is not always fair and just and when people cannot change and remedy that, they must accept it, deal with it and get on with life.
Comment by Bill Narvey — February 16, 2008 @ 7:56 am
Bill Narvey
You are utterly amazing. You write above:
Here you are once more creating a red herring on the word “patriotism”. This discussion is not about one word Bill and how different people see this one word.
The issue is really about the nature of the global world we now live in and how Jewish people in Israel can begin to come to terms with this global world, which is a different world than say 200 years ago when Jews were moving into Poland seeking a refuge.
It is the global nature of this world today that you seem unable to grasp because it is this global nature of the world that has actually forced the Jews and the Serbs objectively together. I sress the word objectively. Karl Marx predicted ALL of this a century and a half ago.
Bill Narvey, the world is fast passing you by. You are like a fossil which has been washed up on a crag face of the Rockies where once there was a sea lapping the shores of that ancient land.
While you have ben fossilising Bill the world has moved on and capitalism has now created a global economy and above all a global Imperialism. It was this global Imperialism which decided to move in against Milosevic and Yugoslavia as part of its grand strategic geo-political aims, essentially to capture the economies and if necessary to make war on Russia, China and India.
And the same global Imperialism in the form essentially of US and EU Imperialism is now moving against the Jews of Israel and they are forming close alliances with, as they did in Yugoslavia, the most evil elements of Islam, which itself is a global power with global Imperialist ambitions.
Bill why do you think that the wonderful and very intelligent editor of Israpundit, Ted Belman, saw fit yesterday to highlight that the arch Imperialist ideologue, one Zbigniew Brzezinski, has been on a fishing trip to of all places the Baathist criminal reginme of Syria over the past few days.
That the very real possibility that the iniquitous ruling class of Israel led by Olmert, Livni and Barak, are preparing to waste Jewish lives in a fruitless war with Hamas, in order to hand this area plus Judea and Samaria over to the heirs of Hajj Amin el Huisseini, namely Fatah and Abbas, but that this would only work if backed by NATO. And that pretty much the same scenaroio is being created as in Bosnia and Kosovo where under the protection of the UN and NATO Serb churces were burned to the ground and simple Serb folk murdered.
The fact is that Ted Belman is very definitely part of this wonderful Jewish people, that at times they may be inward looking as they have had to be to survive 2000 plus years of persecution by EVERYBODY, but that now sense that they are in a different situation.
The situation now is global. Kosovo is Judea and Samaria really, and in turn is the Basque Country in Spain etc.
Forget “patriotic” Bill. Do not get hung up on a word. Think survival.
Oh and do not think for a moment that the battle of the Serbs is over. Sure the EU shitheads like Solana dangled a big bribe in front of the Serbs in the last election but still 47 per cent of the Serbs rejected the bribe. That is not perfect but is not bad either considering that the Media in Serbia is controlled by NATO and the US, and that there is a traitor class in existence in Serbia, just as there is a traitor class in existence in Israel.
And it is not over Bill. Russia is not going to lie down in front of the NATO steamroller and why should it. If anything having got rid of the reactionary Stalinist bureacracy and then got rid of the drunkard Yeltsin, Putin has turned into a far more formidable opponent to the Empire.
Expect a new situation to face the Fascists who compose the KLA in Kosovo. The Serbs will pull back from pockets where they are in physical danger, look at the pictures Nathan has laboured to provide us with, paying a lot of money from his near empty student pocket to a greedy capitalist internet shop in Australia in the process, and you have some evidence surely of the danger.
Expect also Serbia to join with Russia, and that the Russian guns will be stationed on the border looking right down the Fascist throats of the KLA and NATO or EU Gabngsters.
Not over by a long shot Bill.
The situation is by no means hopeless Bill. The situation is becoming a revolutionary situation in both Serbia and Israel. But you Bill will continue in your primitive fossilized existence up on your lonely perch in the Rockies. Very sad!
Comment by Felix Quigley — February 16, 2008 @ 10:43 am
Jews and Israelis can never be more Catholic than the Pope nor more Serbian than the Serbs. While I really really do not like Europeans I do make some distinction between Slavs and others that make up Todays Europe. Nobody in the Balkan conflict can be said to shine as an example of Humanitarian virtue, certainly not the Albanians and their cohorts in kosovo and to a larger degree not the Serbs either, putting aside for the moment the rights and wrongs in that conflict the Serbs behaved like Serbs which was no less brutal in many documented cases than those Albanians in Kosovo/ that being said the Serbs got screwed and I do believe our empathy should reside with them.
I enjoyed seeing Clinton paying his respects to an arch war criminal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I bet he was feeling akin to the dead terrorist like 2 peas in a pod!!!
Comment by yamit82 — February 16, 2008 @ 10:53 am
Felix, yours is a very colorful, but tangential counterpoint going far afield to a point I did not make.
Why not just stick to the points I did make and see where that gets you.
Comment by Bill Narvey — February 16, 2008 @ 11:21 am
Felix, there is a choice for Jews in the election: Mike Huckabee. There’s still a chance–mostly hinging on Texas (March 4th I think)–to get a brokered convention. The Republican establishment likes to portray the nomination as done, but stopping McCain only means getting a brokered convention, not 1191 delegates (which is impossible). After that, since most delegates (even the ones Romney turned over, suggesting they vote for McCain) are “unbound” and the candidates get to sell their case to the party. What the Huckabee campaign is hoping for is a Texas win followed by a string of support at the end going into a brokered convention.
Comment by soren — February 16, 2008 @ 12:18 pm
If Israel etc should not stick up for the Serbs because they do not stick up for themselves, then logically should the rest of the world - especially Jews - not stick up for Israel because they too - especially under this government - do not stick up for themselves? If Israel is to be a light unto the nations, perhaps this is one small candle that should be lit. Israel is insignificant in this battle between the U.S. and Russia. It is a good opportunity to stand up for morality and truth.
Comment by Jonathan — February 16, 2008 @ 4:38 pm
Jonathan , you are largely correct the world should not support an Israel who does not out of self interest do what she needs to do to protect her citizenry and sovereignty. That there are those that do it in spite of our weakness and derelict( bordering on criminality) leadership! We cannot just blame our leadership as I believe they are a mirror image of most Israelis today at least not worse. One might make an argument that we Israelis are not deserving of better leaders or what we have is what we deserve. In most non dysfunctional families in times of trouble normal families coalesce, band together and put disputes aside to be continued or resolved after the trouble have subsided and are no longer a danger or threat. What is true for individuals and families is also so for extended families(tribe) THE JEWISH PEOPLE. THIS TRUISM HAS LARGELY BEEN SO THROUGH OUT OUR HISTORY. Those non Jews who seem to support Israel as opposed to Jews in general do so largely out of self interest based on their theological beliefs, and most with an insidious agenda. This would be so no matter who are Israels leaders or what its policies as for most of them it is a theological imperative.
Israel will survive or not depending on her ability in the final analysis to defend herself against any and all enemies who would seek to destroy her. This is the bottom line not only for Israel but for any country or nation.
Kosovo for the Sebs is equal in emotional ties as Jerusalem is for the Jew. This is where the Turkish Muslim invasion was halted, Kosovo is the serbian peoples national foundation stone. It is Serbian National ethos and National narrative. Serbia lost it because they would rather fight amongst themselves and Muslims among them, than to defend that which was most sacred in their National History.
As a Jew I can empathize with the Serbs as they and the Bulgarians were unique amongst Europeans who did something brave in attempting to protect her Jews from the Nazis, not out of any love for the Jew but out of hatred of the German Nazis and Bosnian and Croats organized and ad hock divisions who enjoyed killing and torturing their fellow Jewish countryman. Do the Serbs deserve any special treatment that the Chechnians, Tibbetins, or the Armenians don’t?There is no morality here to defend as the Serbs were every bit as brutal to the Muslims as the muslims were to the Serbs. The Serbs lost because they were weak not united and were sacraficed on the alter of geopolitical expediency of America and western Europe. The jew owes nothing to any European Nation, not before WW2 and not after with the creation of Israel, Yougoslavia sided with the Arabs and so called non aligned nations always against Israel. Tito wasen’t a Serb but a Croat. He kept unity as any dictator would by force or threat of force. Even their fellow Slav the Rusians did nothing to help the Serbs as they all had National Interests and here we see the Serbs became the expendable Party. BOO HOO!!
addendum: Olmert was in Germany concluding an order for three more subs to round out the other three we got from Germany, ea sub can be fitted with nuke war headed cruise missiles> THIS IS THE MESSAGE THAT Should be sent to the whole world not some new age clap trap about light unto the nations and morality and truth.
Comment by yamit82 — February 16, 2008 @ 6:11 pm
You know, I don’t think that Serbs ever asked or expected Jews and Israel to stand up for the Serbs, because they are “owed anything”. When people do what they believed to be right, they don’t expect “a reward”, in this world anyway.
As for yamit’s statement about Yugoslavia being anti-Israel, you might want to check this out Apparently Yugoslavia did offer Israel support at a critical time in her history. But that’s neither here nor there.
It was however terribly shocking that so many Jews stood AGAINST the Serbs from the 1990’s till today and praised their enemies — the same enemies who once killed Jews and also killed Serbs. It’s surreal for me to see Haaretz calling Thaci “Kosovo’s ben Gurion” when his Kosovo Albanians drove out every last Jew from Kosovo in the last nine years, and the WWII Kosovo Albanian Nazi “Skenderbeg Division” did the same thing 60 years before . Ten years ago it was stunning to see that someone named “David Cohen” wrote a book called “Serbia’s Secret War” that was nothing more than Croat Ustashe propaganda by someone who couldn’t even read or write Serbo-Croat, promoting the Jew-killing Croats as “saviors”.
I suppose that it shouldn’t come as a shock that there are those who would betray their own mother in this world and some of them happen to be Jewish. But the vehemence and the abject hatred toward Serbs –along with ignorance of their own history — came as a shock and still comes as a shock to me and others who still look on Jews as “God’s chosen people”.
Respect for international law died today — in Kosovo — and it’s now every man & country for himself as there are no rules anymore. So May God Help us all!
BB
Comment by Bokababe — February 16, 2008 @ 10:55 pm
Bill Narvey, you have completely missed the point and essence of the article! This post by Nathan Pearlstein has very little if anything to do at all with “taking sides” between the Islamofascist KLA Albanian terrorists currently in power in Kosovo who wish to create a fascist Islamist state versus the principled opposition to this by the governments of Serbia and Russia.
If you had bothered to read the article carefully you would have seen that Nathan Pearlstein created it as a warning to all of us as to what could very easily happen to Israeli Jews if Israel allows the Islamofascist supporters of PLO-Fatah and Hamas to be granted an independent state carved out of Jewish land!
You write:
An utterly defeatist comment.So what are you implying here Bill? That we should all just shut up and forget about this truth? The truth being that the corrupt Western politicians in the US, EU and NATO want to create a new Islamofascist state backed by al Qaeda, Saudi Arabia and Iran!
A state run by mafia gangsters created at the expense of Serbs, Romanies and Jews in Kosvo - who were driven out by the al Qaeda backed Islamofascist KLA terrorists!
Are you implying that we should shut up and throw in the towel and concede defeat, because the Western political elites are too powerful to be challenged since they are the ones in power whom call the shots?
And another thing. Why did you put the word truth in quotation marks, Bill? By doing so, you are implying that you believe it is not a truth. That speaks volumes. Since according to what you wrote, you clearly imply that this truth is really irrelevant and of no use to anybody because in your very own words you write that it should be “left for historians to discuss and consider”!Amazing!
And this:
Oh really Bill? Again you are impling that we should all raise no protest at this travesty of justice because it’s “a done deal” and therefore leave it to “historians to discuss and consider”
Then what is the purpose of Israpundit in exposing US and NATO-EU government support for the Islamofascists of PLO-Fatah who want to create an independent Islamofascist state carved out of Jewish land at the expense of Israel and Israeli Jews? Why not just leave all that alone, shut up about it and leave it to Western “historians to discuss and consider”?
Further you write:
So it’s “a done deal” you say because it’s 90% Muslim. You fail to tell us that it is 90% Muslim because of one crucial truth you overlook and that is the indisputable fact that the Islamofascist KLA’s act of genocide - the ethnic cleansing directed against the Serbs, Jews, Romany and Gorani - was made possible by NATO and the EU working under the cover of the UN flag!
When NATO/EU troops - who under the cover of the UN moved into Kosovo in June 1999 under UN Security Council Resolution 1244 - the Islamofascist KLA terrorists were given free reign to go around murdering and ethnically cleansing over 350,000 people - mainly Jews,Serbs,Romanies,Gorani - and tens of thousands of the 16 other different minority groups were murdered or expelled from Kosovo from June 1999 onwards!
You also state:
Are you talking about the pathetic gang of wimps,losers and betrayers of Israel and the Israeli Jews in the current government of Israel? Those idiots linked to Olmert, Livni and Barak? Of course the current Olmert government of Israel is too weak to stand against the US and EU on this issue, since it is too weak to even look after the national interests of Israel amd the Israeli Jews!
And why are you trying to imply that you equate opposition to the Islamofascist KLA gangsters being granted an independent state carved out of 15% of Serbian land with Israeli and Jewish support for Vladimir Putin?
Regardless of the fact that in this particular instance Russia’s Putin is standing on the side of international law: the Helsinki Final Act of 1975 and the UN Charter with respect to the territorial integrity and sovereignty of UN member states, this issue is not about standing with Vladimir Putin or his policies. It is not about standing with Russia or its government. The crucial issue is about refusing to grant and reward a bunch of Islamofascist terrorists their own indpendent state built on terror, ethnic cleansing and genocide!
It is about refusing to reward these Islamofascist gangsters with territory carved out of a sovereign state. It is about standing on the side of international law and order. Got that Bill?
You further write:
Once again Bill, as is your perennial habit, you clearly misunderstood what Nathan Pearlstein was referring to when he wrote about Jewish and Israeli patriotism.
This is not about Jewish patriotism replacing Serbian patriotism. This is not about Jews in the diaspora or Israeli Jews taking the side of the Serbs by doing the Serbs’ hard work for them against the Islamofascists, but far more to do with realizing the dire implications for Israel if the Islamofascists of Mahmoud Abbas or Hamas are granted their own state carved from Jewish land.
Israeli Jews will face mass murder, ethnic cleansing and terror on a scale heretofore unseen if this is allowed to happen. Patriotic Israeli Jews owe their allegiance and patriotism to the national interests of Israel and her people - not to the Israeli government or that of the US government.
You seem to be unable or unwilling to make the connection between the dire situation facing the Israeli Jews from the continual genocidal attacks by the Islamofascists of PLO-Fatah and Hamas and US,NATO,EU government support of these terrorists being granted an independent state carved out of Jewish land - with US,NATO,EU support of Izetbegovic’s SDA party Islamofascists in Bosnia and now the KLA Islamofascists in Kosovo being given their own independent states carved out of Serbian land.
The reason why this issue of what really happened in Srebrenica-Bosnia and Kosovo is vital for all patriotic Jews in Israel and the diaspora to understand is because of this:
when NATO-EU troops took over under the UN flag as “multi-national peacekeepers” it led to a horrific campaign of mass murder and ethnic cleansing directed against the minority Jews, Serbs, Romany and Gorani peoples residing in those areas under UN/NATO-EU control!!
It is vital for patriotic Jews to understand what led to this horrific genocide:
the US,NATO-EU support of these al Qaeda-backed Islamofascists by granting them independent states policed by NATO-EU peacekeepers who stood by and turned a blind eye and deaf ear to this horrific campaign of Islamofascist terror, ethnic cleansing and mass murder directed against the provinces’ Christians and Jews!
Nathan Pearlstein’s article is intended as a warning to us all of what will happen to Israeli Jews if Israel allows these Islamofascists in the PLO-Fatah and Hamas to create a state of their own on Jewish land with US,NATO,EU support.An action which would obviously encompass the sending of a “multi-national peace-keeping force” into Gaza and the West Bank flying under the UN/NATO-EU flag.
Comment by enigmax — February 17, 2008 @ 2:19 am
Bokababe,
please don’t be disheartened or dismayed by the ignorant comments of Jewish organizations in the United States or Canada during the 1990’s or even now.
They did not and do not speak for all Jews in the diaspora nor do they speak for Israel or Israeli Jews.
These large Jewish organizations in the West actually both wittingly and unwittingly work against the best interests of Israeli Jews and Jews in the diaspora alike. They certainly do not speak for me and I am Jewish.
Also, in the same vein, please don’t be offended or take yamit82’s remarks to heart about the Serbs being just as bad as the Kosovo and Bosnian muslim Islamofascists. He likewise does not speak for all Israeli Jews on this accusation of his either.
yamit82 is very, very wrong when he writes:
and this
Of course, yamit82 has no independent documented evidence from non-NATO, non-Soros sources to back his claims up.
All he has is the Western mainstream corporate media narrative: the already widely debunked fiction that the “Serbs were genocidal maniacs intent on wiping out the muslims in Kosovo and Bosnia”
Many, many on the so-called “Fascist Left” support this untenable line against the Serbs too.
Why? Because the Fascist Left also support the Islamofascists of Hamas, PLO-Fatah in Gaza and the West Bank and Hezbollah in Lebanon when they clainm that these Arabs are simply “freedom fighters” who are “fighting against the genocidal Israeli state terror against the Palestinians”.
So it is hardly surprising that they take the same line against the Serbs that they take against Israel.
I wonder how yamit82 would feel if someone here on Israpundit stated that:
“…the Israelis behaved like Hamas & PLO Arabs which was no less brutal in many documented cases than those Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank”
or if someone on Israpundit wrote:
“There is no morality here to defend as the Israeli Jews were every bit as brutal to the Palestinian Arabs as the Arabs were to the Israeli Jews.”
Of course, we all know - based on his past behavior here - that yamit82 would go into an apoplectic fit of rage at such unfair, untruthful,biased anti-Israel remarks.
He would then most likely ask Ted Belman to ban the writer from the pages of Israpundit if this individual persisted with such totally biased,untruthful and deeply offensive anti-Israel comments.
But yamit82 has absolutely no problem whatsover writing such totally biased,untruthful utter crap against the Serbs and Serbia in favor of the muslims in Kosovo and Bosnia by equating the Serb victims with the Islamofascist perpetrators. And that my friends, speaks volumes about his double standards and lack of integrity on this issue.
Of course, yamit82, is the same writer whom previously in his comments on Israpundit informed all of us here that a US, NATO-EU government-backed Islamofascist takeover of Kosovo was “not our problem!”.
yamit82 then arrogantly and condescendingly mocks the Serbs by pointing out how the drunkard Yeltsin failed to help Serbia and then, not being satisfied with mocking the Serbs for this lack of support from Russia during the 1990’s Yeltsin era, further insults the Serbs directly by mockingly bemoaning the loss of Kosovo - the Serbs’ Jerusalem - by writing this:
On top of that he throws in a classic “red herring” of a diversion against the Serbs with his comment that:
But of course, yamit82 inadvertantly lets the cat out of the bag and reveals the true reason for this pro-Arab Yugoslav policy when he notes that the dictator who ran the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (SFRY) for nearly 4 decades following World War 2 was none other than Communist dictator Josip Broz Tito whom was not even a Serb but a Croat:
So of course, the fact that Communist Yugoslavia was for decades pro-Arab until the 1980’s when Tito died cannot be blamed on the Serbs and is thus nothing more than a red herring and smokescreen to divert attention away from the real issue here:
US,NATO,EU support for the creation of an Islamofascist terrorist gangster state at the expense of the province’s Serbs,Jews,Romanies and Gorani whom were all driven out and murdered by the al Qeada backed KLA Jihadist cut-throat killers.
Let me repeat so it is understood:
To say that Yugoslavia, under the Croat dictator Josip Broz Tito from 1945 to 1980 was “pro-Arab and always took an anti-Israel position” has absolutely nothing to do with what is happening right now in Kosovo where the US, NATO and EU governments are backing the creation of an independent antisemitic Islamofascist terrorist mafia gangster state backed by al Qaeda and built on the ethnic cleansing and mass murder of 350,000 Serbs,Jews,Roma and Gorani peoples.
Comment by enigmax — February 17, 2008 @ 5:43 am
Pre-9/11 Kosovo Redux This Weekend: Final Warning to Conservative Media and Blogosphere
See also:
Naw, What the Israelis and Serbs are Dealing with Isn’t Related at All
Comment by enigmax — February 17, 2008 @ 6:47 am
I applaud Ted Belman for having the courage to put this article out, and also the posters who spoke up so courageously on behalf of the Serbs. Thank G-d there are some Jews who still live their Judaism and consider support for the oppressed and to battle against evil is as important now as it was thousands of years ago. G-d bless all of you. I have spread this article far and wide.
As Jews we can finally go a long way in once again being a light to the nations by standing against the sickening greed for power displayed by the so-called enlightened western nations. Is it any wonder we are all despised and compared with the power-crazy neocons by those who hate us - this complicity with such crimes is a godsend to all Jew haters, who have found their opportunity to link every single Jew everywhere with this crime against humanity. The time has come to stand against them and we owe it to every decent Jew and every decent Israeli to demand that the spineless Olmert and his crew does the same.
Bokababe you write “I suppose that it shouldn’t come as a shock that there are those who would betray their own mother in this world and some of them happen to be Jewish. But the vehemence and the abject hatred toward Serbs –along with ignorance of their own history — came as a shock and still comes as a shock to me and others who still look on Jews as “God’s chosen people” Nothing more needs to be said and I agree with you 100%.
Comment by Cuttothechase — February 17, 2008 @ 8:22 am
From the period of the 12th century C.E. until the mid-18th century, Jews in Serbia were generally treated well. They were traders mainly involved in selling salt. By the end of the Turkish rule over Serbia, Jewish tradesmen were largely responsible for the trade route between the northern and southern ends of the lands ruled by the Turks.
In 1804, the Serbs waged a war against the Turks for their independence. In response to the violent revolt, many Jews moved to Zemun and created their own community there. In support of the wars of independence, Jews supplied the Serbs with weapons, and in return, Jews faced brutal attacks by the Turks. The wars of independence lasted until 1830 when the Serbs gained the right to self-rule.
The new Serbian government was not as friendly in their relations with Jewish citizens. In fact, by 1831, the Serbs had already begun to prohibit Jews from certain professions. Prince Milosh Obrenovich tried to improve the Jewish situation, but he was overtaken by the Karageorgevich family in 1842. The new dynasty sympathized with non-Jewish merchants and, by 1845, the Serbian Jews had been prevented from participating in even the most basic of professions such as tailoring.
In 1856, Jews were expelled from provincial towns. Prince Milosh Obrenovich reclaimed his role as ruler and again Jews were hopeful of their situation. By 1860, however, Milosh’s son was ruling and he followed the ways of the Karageorgevich rulers. Non-Jewish merchants were again favored and Jewish Serbs were prohibited from the mercantile industry.
The inconsistency of the laws regarding Jews continued through the end of the 19th century. In 1861, for example, a decree that called for the expulsion of sixty Jewish families was retracted after one month. In its place, a law was written to allow Jews freedom to practice professions within their own communities. At the same time that the government declared an emancipation of all Serbian citizens, it also reverted back to past discriminatory laws against Jews. The Serbian parliament did not lift its restrictions on Jewish citizens until 1889. Because of blatant Serbian anti-Semitism, the Jewish population in the area decreased each year. In 1912, 5,000 Jews remained in Serbia. Jews in the region began to give their support to the Zionist cause. Sephardic communities, in particular, were influenced by Zionist ideals.
By 1941, the Jewish population in Serbia was approximately 12,000. While there was a long tradition of anti-Semitism throughout the republic, the Nazi regime brought with them an official decree against Jews. German troops occupied the city of Belgrade and began to destroy Jewish homes, stores, and synagogues. Jews were quickly forced to register themselves with the government and registered Jews were required to wear yellow identifying stars. An organization of non-Jewish Serbs was created to help control the “Jewish Problem”.
While it was at first sufficient to subject Serbian Jews to forced labor, by the end of the summer in 1941, the Nazis had sent 2,500 to a concentration camp outside Belgrade. 8,000 Jewish men who lived in and around Serbia were brought to this same concentration camp. It became clear that none of the Jews would be leaving the camp. Forty-five hundred of the prisoners were killed by gunfire between August and October of 1941.
The former Yugoslavia was liberated in 1944. Throughout the entire region, only 14,000 Jews returned. The Jews wasted no time, and the Federation of Jewish Communities was quickly opened. Many of the Jewish communities throughout Yugoslavia were reclaimed. Currently, 2,500 Jews live in the area of Serbia and Montenegro.
While many Jews have left Serbia and Montenegro, their monuments and synagogues remain. One synagogue is particularly well-known both for its beauty and for its present state of devastation. The Subotica Synagogue is located in the city of Subotica. The synagogue was built in 1902, and while its beauty remains, it is in need of major renovations. The synagogue is one of the last architectural structures built in the Secessionist style of the early 1900s. The World Monuments Fund listed the Subotica Synagogue as one of the 100 most endangered memorial sites. Both the World Monuments Fund and the Jews of Serbia and Montenegro are attempting to restore the Subotica Synagogue and are asking for donations from the international community.
War memorial
In 1991, Yugoslavia’s republics began their violent breakup. While the entire region was negatively affected by the breakup, Jews, in particular, were thrown into the middle of the situation. Anti-Semitism was not blatant during the 1990s, but rather, it was used as a way to win Jewish favor. Both the Croatians and the Serbs would accuse each other of anti-Semitism, hoping to bring Jews to their own side.
Serbia’s break from Yugoslavia led to a disconnect of the Jewish community. At present, the Jewish population in the former Yugoslavia does not contain an umbrella organization to connect all of the countries
Ancient communities
Jews first arrived in the region now known as Serbia in Roman times, although there is little documentation prior to the tenth century AD. For the next five hundred years, documentation on the Jews of the Balkans is sketchy.
Spanish refugees
The Jewish communities of the Balkans were boosted in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries by the arrival of Jewish refugees fleeing the Spanish and Portuguese Inquisitions. Sultan Bayezid II of the Ottoman Empire welcomed the Jewish refugees into his Empire. Jews became involved in trade between the various provinces in the Ottoman Empire, becoming especially important in the salt trade [1].
Ottoman rule
With generally good relations between the Jews and Serbs, the Jewish communities prospered, and by the nineteenth century Jewish merchants were largely responsible for the trade routes between the Ottoman Empire’s northern and southern territories [1].
Beginning in 1804, the Serbs began to fight the Ottoman Turks for independence. Many Jews were involved in the struggle by supplying arms to the local Serbs, and the Jewish communities faced brutal reprisal attacks from the Ottoman Turks [1]. The independence struggle lasted until 1830, when Serbia gained its independence.
The new Serbian government was not friendly toward the Jewish community, and by 1831 there were prohibitions against Jews entering some professions. The situation of the Jews briefly improved under the rule of Prince Mihailo Obrenovi? (ruled 1839-1842), but anti-Jewish provisions were reinstated under Prince Alexander (ruled 1842-1858).
With the reclamation of the Serbian throne by the Royal House of Obrenovi? under Miloš Obrenovi? in 1858, restrictions on Jewish merchants were again relaxed, but three years later, in 1861 Mihailo III inherited the throne and reinstated anti-Jewish restrictions.[1].
Belgrade Synagogue
Belgrade Synagogue
Novi Sad Synagogue
Novi Sad Synagogue
Synagogue in Subotica (still standing)
Synagogue in Subotica (still standing)
Synagogue in Kikinda destroyed during Axis occupation in WWII
Synagogue in Kikinda destroyed during Axis occupation in WWII
The waxing and waning of the fortunes of the Jewish community according to the ruler continued to the end of the 19th Century, when the Serbian parliament lifted all anti-Jewish restrictions in 1889.[2]
By 1912, the Jewish community of Serbia stood at 5,000. .
See also: History of Serbia
In the aftermath of World War I, Serbia merged with Montenegro, and then united with State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs to form the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, which was soon renamed Kingdom of Yugoslavia. Serbia’s relatively small Jewish community of 13,000 (including 500 in Kosovo), combined with the large Jewish communities of the other Yugoslav territories, numbering some 51,700. In the inter-war years (1919-1939), the Jewish communities of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia flourished.
Prior to World War II, 10,000 Jews lived in Belgrade, 80% being Ladino-speaking Sephardi Jews, and 20% being Yiddish-speaking Ashkenazi Jews.
The Holocaust
As the Nazis and their allies closed in on the Kingdom of Yugoslavia in March 1941, the government of Dragiša Cvetkovi? and Vladko Ma?ek enacted anti-Jewish edicts and signed an alliance with the Axis Powers. The alliance with the Nazis was rejected by most Yugoslavs, and in April 1941 German, Italian, Hungarian and Bulgarian troops invaded Yugoslavia.
Between 1941 and 1944 in Serbia existed the puppet Government of National Salvation. The Nazi genocide against Serbian (and Yugoslav) Jews began in September 1941, with the Jews of Banat and Belgrade being the first to be persecuted. The annihilation of Serbian Jewry was carried out with brutal efficiency by the German army and by the Croatian army which occupied parts of Serbia. The Croatian Ustaše murdered between 300,000 and 700,000 Serbs, approximately 40,000 Gypsies and 32,000 Jews in the territories they controlled. The Germans set up several concentration camps to murder Serbs, Jews and Gypsies, the two main camps being Sajmište and Banjica. The Ustaše also set up concentration camps at Kerestinac, Jadovna, Metajna and Slana. The most notorious, where cruelty of unimaginable proportions was perpetrated against Jewish and Serbian prisoners were at Pag and Jasenovac. At Jasenovac alone, 800,000 people were murdered (mostly Serbs), including 20,000 Jews.
By the time Serbia and Yugoslavia were liberated in 1944, most of Serbian Jewry had been murdered. Of the 82,500 Jews of Yugoslavia alive in 1941, only 14,000 (17%) survived the Holocaust[1]. Only 4,000 Serbian Jews had survived the Holocaust.
Post-war community
The Federation of Jewish Communities in Yugoslavia was formed in the aftermath of World War II to coordinate the Jewish communities of post-war Yugoslavia and to lobby for the right of Jews to immigrate to Israel[7]. The Federation was headquartered in Belgrade, the capital of the post-war Yugoslavia.
More than half of Yugoslav survivors chose to immigrate to Israel after World War II.
The Jewish community of Serbia, and indeed of all constituent republics in Yugoslavia, was maintained by the unifying power of the Federation of Jewish Communities in Yugoslavia. However, this power ended with dissolution of Yugoslavia in the 1990s.
Yugoslav wars
The Jews of Serbia lived relatively peacefully in Yugoslavia between World War II and the 1990s. However, the end of the Cold War saw the breakup of Yugoslavia, and wars in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina. There were also a war in the Serbian province of Kosovo-Metohija and NATO raids of Serbia and Montenegro.
While there was little anti-Semitism in Serbia during the wars, the Jewish community, as with all Serbians, suffered as a result of the wars. Many Jews chose to immigrate to Israel and the United States. During the Kosovo Conflict, the Federation of Jewish Communities in Yugoslavia relocated many of Belgrade’s Jewish elderly, women and children to Budapest, Hungary for their safety; many of them emigrated permanently.
Today
Numbers
Prior to the conflicts of the 1990s, approximately 2,500 Jews lived in Serbia[1], most in Belgrade.
According to the 2002 Serbian census, there were 785 Jews in Serbia. Almost all Jews (91%) in Central Serbia live in Belgrade. Forty-percent of Serbian Jews live in Vojvodina. The results of the 2002 census are displayed below]:
Area Jewish
population Total
population
Belgrade 415 1,576,124
Novi Sad 400 299,294
Subotica 89 148,401
Pan?evo 42 127,162
Rest of Serbia 239 5,646,314
Total 1185 7,498,001
The only remaining functioning synagogue in Serbia is the Belgrade Synagogue. There are also small numbers of Jews in Zrenjanin and Sombor, with isolated families scattered throughout the rest of Serbia.
Anti-Semitism in Serbia is relatively rare and isolated, although there have been some anti-Semitic incidents. According to the US State Department Report on Human Rights practices in Serbia for 2006, “Jewish leaders in Serbia reported continued incidents of anti-Semitism, including anti-Semitic graffiti, vandalism, small circulation anti-Semitic books, and Internet postings”, and that anti-Semitic incidents have been on the rise in Serbia.] However these have been aimed only at Ashkenazi Jews.
The Serbian government recognizes Judaism as one of the seven “traditional” religious communities of Serbia[.
Ancestry
Even today, the majority of Serbian Jews are Sephardim (descendants of refuges from the Spanish and Portuguese Inquisitions). Vojvodina
While the rest of Serbia was still ruled by the Ottoman Empire, Vojvodina – an autonomous province within the Republic of Serbia – was ruled by the Habsburg Monarchy from the end of the 17th century. Vojvodina too had previously been ruled by the Ottoman Empire, and it was under Ottoman rule that the first Jews settled in the region.
In 1782, Emperor Joseph II issued the Edict of Tolerance, giving Jews some measure of religious freedom. The Edict attracted Jews to many parts of the Habsburg Monarchy, including Vojvodina. The Jewish communities of Vojvodina flourished, and by the end of the 19th Century the region had nearly 40 Jewish communities.
Monument in Novi Sad dedicated to killed Jewish and Serb civilians in 1942 raid.
Monument in Novi Sad dedicated to killed Jewish and Serb civilians in 1942 raid.
The 1931 census counted 21,000 Jews in the province (see also Demographic history of Vojvodina). The Jewish communities of Vojvodina, as in the rest of Serbia, were largely destroyed in the Holocaust, particularly in Banat, which was under direct German occupation, and in Ba?ka, which was under Hungarian occupation. In 1942 raid, the Hungarian troops killed many Jewish and Serb civilians in Ba?ka (see: Crimes of the occupiers in Vojvodina, 1941-1944). Synagogues in Zrenjanin and Kikinda were demolished during war, while the synagogue in Pan?evo was demolished after war because there were only a few Jews remaining there.
Today, 329 Jews – almost half of Serbian Jewry – live in Vojvodina, most in Subotica, Pan?evo, Zrenjanin and Sombor.
Comment by yamit82 — February 17, 2008 @ 8:34 am
Ted, you are fantastic! The war on Yugoslavia was an illegal and immoral act. To achieve this war, history was turned on it’s head, PR companies employed, and mass properganda, defamation via MSM. The Serbs were fearsome partizans who faught the Nazi’s. The Germans, coincidently(?) recognised Croatia (google: checknics) The Americans under the liar Clinton, obliterated the Serbs, our allies, our friends. There most certainly was NO massacre of muslims which instigated NATO involvemnet, more and more documentation, statements, etc are starting to see the light of day. They have created a muslim fundermentalist/gangster state inside Europe - these have links to 7/7, the Hamas and Hezbollah. These same muslim terrorists now are the grandchildren of the Bosnian muslims imported into Palestine by the Mufti. Every Jew worth his/her salt must fight to right the worng done. Little by little, a small cadre of us have rebuilt some trust with a few proud Serbians. Please write your representatives and senators. NO to KOSOVO.
Please read more at: http://www.serbianna.com/
Thank you Ted. Shalom
Comment by Jo.S — February 17, 2008 @ 9:16 am
Ending the Balkan Quagmire at American Thinker
The Clinton-Bush-Islamic Axis in Israel and Kosovo
Radical Islam’s Dupes
Kosovo and Israel: A Shared Betrayal
Fjordman: Why We Should Oppose an Independent Kosovo
Today Kosovo - Tomorrow Jerusalem?
My Own “So Sorry” (to the Serbs & Serbia) by Zionist Youngster in Israel
Comment by enigmax — February 17, 2008 @ 9:39 am
As Bokababe and Cuttothechase said.
The whole thing of Yugoslavia and Israel raises sky high the issue of leadership.
Yamit maintains that this leadership is going to emerge out of Judaism. However much I do like this religion and philosophy it is totally incapable of providing an answer to Fascism, which is a modern phenomenon, connected with the death agony of the capitalist system. And Judaism proved it had no answer in the period from 1933 to 1945, the moment of greatest test.
The chap on the other thread, admirer of Ray, throws everything together, Tito, Stalinism, Labourism, the modern fascist Left of Counterpunch and SWP, etc, and therein is the death of all knowledge because we have to identify politiclal trends and leaders.
Tito was a Stalinist and despite episodic differences he was out of that school, which meant peaceful coexistence with Imperialism and most relevantly also accomodation with Islamofascism and even the clerical fascism of Tudjman. Tito was a Serb hater, he favoured the Albanians and made their immigration into Kosovo easy. That was and is what Jihadwatch calls the soft Jihad.
It is so relevant to the recent history of Israel and the Jews it is uncanny almost.
Then there was the Labourists in Serbia and Yugoslavia, especially among the trade union leaders. They played a big role in betrayal.
Then there was the Serbian bourgeois class, who always had an eye to an alliance with Imperialism, and even more so in the past 20 years or so. This emerging bourgeoisie are those who lies behind the support for Soros, the crimes against Milosevic etc. His eventual betrayal to the Hague and his murder.
These Labourists are the same political trend that you have around Barak and around the Isseroffs in Israel. They are absolutely deadly.
Marx, Engels, Leninism, Trotsky have always been in deadly conflict with all of these political trends and political forces. They did not always get it 100 per cent right, but they did fight these treacherous political trends.
So to find the way forward Bokababe you have to return to look at Trotsky and especially the position of Trotsky towards the Jews and the nationalism of the Jews in the 30s. You cannot not do this because the actual lessons from that are directly applicable to the Serbs today.
Let me be precise and please let nobody challenge me casually because I have studied this and I can back this up.
Trotsky in the 30s was deeply concerned about the Jews. Briefly he said they must get out of Europe, must get to Palestine, must set up their Jewish state there, and must make that state free from antisemitism.
The pronblem is this. Trotsky was murdered. His followers largely liquidated by Stalinism and Imperialism. What came into prominence in Israel was Labourism (Ben Gurion) and Stalinism (where Hass and even Sharon have their roots in the Stalinist Communist Party)
But still his revolutionary socialism as expounded especially in interviews was correct.
Note he said a Jewish state. This is important.
Note he said this Jewish state must be free from antisemitism.
Note the first thing the Stalinists and Labourists did was to hand citizenship to Jihadists. This is exactly the opposite to what this man Trotsky actually put forward. But people like Yamit, and this scoundrel Ray, says forget ALL that, let us just throw everything together and forget about studying the history. Yamit says it is not relevant because we are Jews and so sets out to betray the Jews. Ray to me is not even worth talking about. He represents the end of knowledge, the end of histical critique. Bill Narvey is now just playing tricks onus, not even answering points. Jerry does not involve himself. Bill Levinson refuses the meet our challenge about the role of US Imperialism in both Serbia and Israel. He chooses silence.
Please people, learn history. Do not distort it either because you are ignorant or even want to remain ignorant.
Comment by Felix Quigley — February 17, 2008 @ 9:47 am
[...] Israpundit has more [...]
Pingback by Kosovo Establishes Islamic Heroin Republic With EU & US Blessing » Winds Of Jihad — February 17, 2008 @ 6:44 pm
The big question is this: Why does the world need another Muslim-occupied land? Do they not occupy enough of the world’s landmass? Why does the world cater to the needs of one religious group that behaves like a cult over all others to take over land by conquest?
If Muslims want to live in exclusively Muslim countries, then they have plenty of choices. The world community does not need to make them a special case whom somehow deserve to take over country after country by dint of the violent threats contained in their religion and due to our growing fear that by not appeasing them and granting them their every wish that they will focus their violence and terror on us.
Comment by Gary — February 17, 2008 @ 11:55 pm
Gary: The Muslims want total world domination and the globalists are helping them because of oil and power. See their map. The Judeo-Christian countries did not hold up a standard of righteousness and do rightly, therefore G-d raises up the “spirit of the Medes” as one of His four sore judgments against apostate Christians and apostate Jews (individually and nations) who have fallen away from the truth.
Jer 51:11 Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the LORD hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it; because it is the vengeance of the LORD, the vengeance of his temple.
Eze 14:21 For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?
Comment by Teshuvah — February 18, 2008 @ 6:40 am
The answer is that it of course it does not.
But guess who calls the shots in this world Gary?
The empire builders over at the foreign policy establishment (CFR) in Washington D.C., and in Brussels, Belgium (H.Q. of the fascist EU).
Let’s not forget that our “esteemed” members of Congress(the corrupt crooks in the House and Senate) pushed for military aid, financing and recognition of these Jihadist Islamofascists for years.
People like McCain, Lieberman, Lantos, Biden, Engel,Hoyer,Gilman and others have the blood of these innocents you see in these photographs on their hands.
These assholes in the US government think that they can pay off and bribe the Islamic world; purchase its “good will” on the altar of murdered Christians and Jews. Worse still, they even admit this!
I found this in the archives of Israpundit which sheds light on what these assholes in Congress have been doing in secret behind our backs for years.
http://politicalmavens.com/index.php/2007/04/22/lantos-jihadists-will-love-us
Comment by InfidelWarrior — February 18, 2008 @ 9:15 am
If you are a casual reader or newcomer to this blog I would ask you to read the links Max has provided especially to the Julian Gorin blog on post 23
It contains
That shows that Julia alone in so many bloggers and much Media coverage really is aware of what this Kosovo issue is all about.
The Russians are both hurt and also at the same time very scared, because as Julia says above the US and EU have stepped outside of International law norms to effect this.
And in regard to Gary’s`point why, it is clear that these things are not done casually, and that much thought has gone into this.
Remember that the new “Kosovans” are clearly pawns, they have for example coordinated every one of their moves, build-up, flag, declaration, “spontaneous” demonstrations, with the EU and the US.
The question is for why?
And remember that Zbigniew Brzezinski was in Syria just last week.
We are getting close to an understanding but the editorial board of Israpundit has to internalise this and has to effect a practice if it is to give correct leadership to Jews.
Comment by Felix Quigley — February 18, 2008 @ 9:33 am
The comments to this post are truly remarkable. You are all a credit to Israpundit.
Enigmax did a masterful job in #20 in taking Bill to task for his arguments.
Thankyou all.
Comment by Ted Belman — February 18, 2008 @ 9:57 am
This current story is in microcosm what may await the worlds jews exclusive of Israel. Choices are important and once made some are irrevocable. I suggest all Jews living in diaspora start thinking of their futures.
By Dinah Spritzer Published: 02/17/2008
PRIZREN, Kosovo (JTA) — On a forlorn road dotted with half-built houses, Ines Quono reflects on her struggle in a land so remote to most Americans it might as well be Oz.
But instead of a yellow brick road, there is crumbling, mud-drenched pavement piled high with garbage.
only thing that works in Kosovo is the banks; we all have to borrow money to do something — anything,” says Quono, 28.
Quono is among the last Jews of Kosovo, a southern province of Serbia about half the size of New Jersey that declared independence on Sunday.
Unemployment in Kosovo hovers at 50 percent and the average wage is $350 a month. “We all worry how we will get by,” says Quono, a university student, wife and mother of a toddler.
The future of Quono and her family is uncertain, as they decide whether their destiny
Related Resources:
offsite link ISRAELI VIEWPOINT: Is Kosovar independece a good thing?
offsite link JEWS OF SERBIA: Flourishing amid extremism
is in Israel or in southeastern Europe, where their roots go back to the 15th-century Spanish Inquisition, when thousands of Sephardic Jews fled to the Balkans.
There are some 50 Jews left in Kosovo. Belonging to three families, or clans, they all live in the city of Prizren, a rare gem of ancient architecture amid a landscape devastated by war, poverty and Communist-era concrete.
The United Nations took over the administration of Kosovo in 1999 after a brutal conflict between Kosovo Albanians seeking independence and Serbian troops controlled by strongman Slobodan Milosevic.
Ethnic Albanians account for 90 percent of Kosovo’s population of 2.2 million. The Albanians are Muslim, but largely secular.
Corruption, criminality and a lack of foreign investment have marked life in Kosovo over the last nine years, during which final-status negotiations between a now democratic Serbia and Kosovo’s ethnic Albanian leaders failed.
Now Kosovo’s prime minister declared independence with support from the United States and most of the European Union — and with fierce opposition from Serbia, whose position is backed by Russia.
Distressed by a war they watched from the sidelines and facing an uncertain future, the Jews of Prizren are gloomy. When the war started, the other Jews in Kosovo — the 50 living in the capital city of Pristina — fled to Serbia, where they spoke the language and felt a part of the culture. But those in Prizren, where Jews speak Albanian and Turkish — there is a large Turkish population there — stayed.
Now, with Kosovo attempting to break away from Serbia, those like Votim Demiri, Quono’s father, who made a decent living under communism, find it hard to leave the homes they built, despite fears of growing tensions with their neighbors.
“There was not anti-Semitism in the past, but with the Saudi charities here now we are seeing a Wahabi influence for the first time,” Demiri said, referring to the fundamentalist Islamic ideology Saudi Arabian clerics have tried to export, with little success, in the Balkans. “I think the newspapers these days are not portraying Jews in such a positive light.”
The greatest concern for Jews here, however, is the concern shared by all Kosovars: feeding their families. In this regard, they are both at an advantage and a disadvantage.
They are helped by the American Joint Jewish Distribution Committee, which provides them with social services, hosts celebrations on Jewish holidays and tries to help with employment.
On the negative side, Jews are outsiders in quasi-state controlled by ethnic Albanians who mete out the few jobs there are to friends and family, said Robert Djerassi, the JDC official responsible for the organization’s activities in Kosovo.
“Ninety percent of Jews in Prizren are jobless,” he said.
Earlier this month, the JDC held a brainstorming session on job opportunities with 25 Prizren Jews aged 40 and under.
“I said, ‘If you can think of a shop or service, like giving English lessons, I find some capital to get you started,’” Djerassi told JTA.
“They tried to explain to me why it cannot happen; they are very pessimistic.”
There are also obstacles in connecting Prizren’s Jews to other Jews in the region.
“My idea is to make them part of something bigger, to bring them to events in Skopje or Belgrade. But the small children, 15 and under, they don’t speak Serbian and that’s a problem,” Djerassi said.
“Our spiritual life, like our economic life, is a disaster,” Demiri said, pointing to his rotting roof. His children, it seems, are preparing for an eventual move to Israel.
Quono’s sister, Teuta Demiri, 22, recently spent a year at a kibbutz, where she studied Hebrew. A bank teller in Prizren, Teuta is thinking
about aliyah but is not confident she can find work in Israel. Her brother is studying Hebrew and also is nervous about his job prospects.
“I have been thinking for eight years whether to go or not to go to Israel,” their father, Votim Demiri said.
He shows off a 20-year-old picture of his mother talking to Simon Peres in Ashdod, Israel, where she moved after World War II while her children opted to build a socialist state in the heart of Europe. But they always knew about their Jewish roots.
Religion, however, was far from their lives.
Demiri is from a generation of Jews who fondly recall life in Yugoslavia, of which Kosovo was a part.
A former textile factory director, Demiri has been mostly out of work for the last two decades, and his prospects of employment are dim. What
he does have is a beautiful, 19th-century, three-story home, albeit one he cannot afford to maintain.
For some of Prizren’s Jews, aliyah is complicated by more than employment worries.
Ulvi Zhalta, 59, looks decades older than his cousin Demiri, 62, due to such health problems as heart disease and an eye clouded by blindness.
Like nearly all Jews who stayed in Prizren after World War II, Zhalta’s mother married a non-Jew, in her case an ethnic Albanian.
“She was buried in a Muslim cemetery. There are no Jewish cemeteries here, but she was registered as a member of the Jewish community in Belgrade,” he said.
Zhalta said he applied for permission to immigrate to Israel in 2000, but has not yet received permission from the
Jewish Agency for Israel. He suspects his mother’s Jewish identity is the source of the delay.
In response to queries on Zhalta’s case, an Israeli representative of the Jewish Agency said the details of individual applications are private.
“Everyone in my family wants to go to Israel,” Zhalta said as the lights went off in his cousin’s living room during one of the daily power outages that have gone on for so long in Kosovo that few can remember life without them.
Comment by yamit82 — February 18, 2008 @ 10:23 am
Here are US foreign policy officials admitting it yet again (for the umpteenth time)
Comment by InfidelWarrior — February 18, 2008 @ 10:59 am
Follow the money…
US politicians ally themselves with Islamofascism for pure capitalist greed and power over target countries weakened by Islamist terrorists that the US government supported in the first place…
Comment by InfidelWarrior — February 18, 2008 @ 11:29 am
To Gary
You mean you really don’t want parts of Mississauga and soon Newmarket to become separate Muslim communities within Canada?
Comment by Jonathan — February 18, 2008 @ 11:44 am
Jonathan: I don’t want to end up looking like the victims in the above pictures. In some parts of Mississauga and Newmarket the Muslims are in the majority and so I guess that Canadians are now officially occupying Muslim land. Soon they will have their own city-states withing Canada. Change a few laws here and there and they will have Sharia too. Challenge their “rights” and you will get a legal jihad directed at you - aided by Human Rights tribunals and MPs who depend on the Muslim vote for their political livlihood.
I have recently been awakened to this Kosovo situation by the experts on Israpundit who have been discussing (for quite some time) the seriousness of this situation and the parallels and lessons this sad tale holds for Israel. I appreciate the wealth of knowledge and information that has given me a new perspective on this crisis. Prior to this education I was under the false impression created by the media that “Serbs massacred Muslims” and that there were no reasons and history to the conflict nor any mitigating circumstances surrounding the conflict. The press continues their one-sided rant and seem to think that any group of Muslims who cannot live with others due to violent tendencies are somehow deserving of their own country.
Russia is right on this matter but I can’t help wonder if the tug-of-war between the USA and Russia is helping to create this mess. Russia is perhaps supplying nuclear expertise to Iran because the USA is supporting Islamofascism in Kosovo among other expoits. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Both powers need to wake up. In Russia’s case both Kosovo and Iran are on its doorstep.
The USA did some calculations, found that the only immediate threat from Iran was to Israel, and so they let Iran off the hook and gave Kosovo the green light. This dangerous and ridiculous decision negates all the war-on-terror measures that have been implemented to date. The USA is sucking up to Islamic countries to make up for that little problem they have with terrorism and in order to woo an Islamic world that is now in fact a transnational and pan-national super power.
Comment by Gary — February 18, 2008 @ 12:19 pm
Ted,
I was not going to bother replying to Enigmax’s disingenuous response to my brief comments as I figured most would see that response for what it really was. Your applause of Engimax’s response as being masterful, has led me to the following response.
The only mastery I saw in Enigmax’s arguments against my points was in sophistry based on his disingenous tactic of trying to set me up as the straw man to knock down by suggesting what I was meaning or implying by the statements I made.
Example 1: quoting my statement, “the significance of this “truth” will not change the course of history that is galloping forward, but will be left for historians to discuss and consider.”, Enigmax states:
I implied nothing and offered no defeatist opinion.
I merely made the observation of a fact that the Muslims of Kosovo were about to declare their independent state, with the likely support of the EU and America. That declaration of independence came yesterday. If international recognition of the independent state of Kosovo follows as it appears it will, all the scholars and advocates that have tried so mightily to get their “truth” out and their alleged “big lie” about the Serbs being the evil villains and the Muslims, the innocents will not have been enough to stop the “big lie” bringing about the independent state of Kosovo.
That is a statement of fact. It is not an argument against the efforts of Nathan Pearlstein, Robert Peter North, Julia Gorin, Jared Israel, and Francisco Gil-White to force Western leaders to admit the “truth” they would have them believe and act accordingly.
It is also not an opinion that these people and people such as Enigmax, stop advocating their “truth”. I simply noted that it is a fact Enigmax and the pro-Serb advocates will have to accept and live with, but that does not mean for a minute they should stop advocating what they believe in.
Given circumstances as they are unfolding, it appears I am right that they will have to make their case after the fact that Kosovo has become another independent Muslim state.
Example 2: Enigmax’s statement:
Enigmax asked a perfectly reasonable question as to why I put the word “truth” in quotation marks. Without giving me a chance to answer, he tells you all that I must be implying that I do not believe it to be the truth.
The word truth when it comes to people advocating contrary views is usually not an absolute, except in the minds of those who advocate their truth against the views advocated by others as their truths.
So long as there are those who maintain the Serbs truly were the villains and offer up what facts they deem relevant, the word “truth” becomes a self aggrandizing characterization of what one is advocating on either side of the issue. That is why I put the word “truth” in quotation marks.
Enigmax completely ignores the first part of my closing paragraph where I state:
.
This hardly means I believe what Nathan Pearlstein, Robert Peter North, Julia Gorin, Jared Israel, and Francisco Gil-White are telling falsehoods.
It is Engimax’s dishonest debating tactics that speak volumes about him.
Example 3:
What has this to do with my comment which narrowly focussed on what was occurring and not on what led up to it or issues of morality?
Again, you argue against me, not by dealing with what I did say, but rather to advocate your self characterized moral “truth” as if it is superior to my views, which you know full well, I did not express on those matters.
Example 4:
Here again, while I have expressed my negative views before about the Olmert government, I simply made a statement that I did not see Israel standing against Kosovo declaring itself an independent state and its being recognized as such which certainly accords with what is. I did not address why that is so.
The implication of my words that Enigmax suggests does not follow from my words.
Example 5 Enigmax says:
Here again, Engimax makes a speech and then disingenuously and sarcastically suggests he says it to contradict what I have said.
I gather Ted you didn’t notice that Enigmax is pontificating against nothing I said.
Example 6: Again Enigmax goes to his well of disingenuity and pulls up another bucketfull of dishonesty to wash over what I did say:
Here again, I did not address the issue at all that he says I am unable or unwilling to accept. Enigmax has made his case, but that is his case and not one that he can honestly make against anything I said in my brief comment.
My disdain for Enigmax is not with the views he holds, but rather for how he dishonestly sets me up as his straw man to knock me down by pontificating his views. Enigmax’s dishonest debating tactics are just that. Dishonest.
Ted, we both have frequently noted that you and I have little to disagree on.
We do now when you applaud Enigmax’s response to my brief comments that are riddled with his self aggrandizing sophistry, venality and disingenuity in advocating his views and making his arguments as if they are to challenge points he claims I made, but which clearly I did not.
Comment by Bill Narvey — February 18, 2008 @ 12:24 pm
#21…… enigmax: You seem very passionate and I do appreciate your fervor and even your criticism of me whoever misplaced they may be but-
I can give you six hundred years of documented brutal History, part you can read below! In all due respect to George Soros and his gang, the conflict between Serba and muslims from Albania go way back before A nut like Soros was even born.
M
Not everything the fascist left says or believes is not necessarily incorrect! The Serb Albanian(Kosovo) conflict is Historical almost Tribal in scope and character and ea. cannot claim Humanism and Love thy neighbor as essential tenants of belief and behavior. That said historically the Serbs seem the have History on their side but in the real world historical rights are only valid if one can defend them successfully! That said you and they cannot use the excuse of the Serbs being powerless due to Having non Serb dictator Tito rule over them. Should we then blame the Eskimos in their stead and give the Serbs a free pass (historically)? In any event I sided with the Serbs in the conflict A- because I know Serbs and tend to like them, B- they have Historical right on their side(for what its worth) C- I hate Nuslims of any stripe especially the (European species). I do not like the American and European interference using Mil. force to solve ethic and religious generational conflicts as they always choose the wrong sides and in the end complicate an already complicated geopolitical situation.
I would say first prove the allegation!!! I have only asked 1 time that someone be removed and that was because he was antisemitic and a fascist Nazi in Leftist sheep’s clothing. That was my opinion and I think mine alone.
This is not a good vs, bad or right vs, wrong black and white situation and I am not all that judgmental as you seem to be but before I dare comment on such a complicated mess as the Balkans I at least arm myself first with knowledge. I study at least the basics before engaging my big mouth as you seem to be doing here.
Kosovo has been a part of the national consciousness of the Serbian people for six centuries. The basic ethical values bequeathed to the Serbian on Vidovdan in 1389 are impressed in the innermost being of every Serb. Every nation has one date in its history that it considers most important; for the Serbs, that date is 15 June by the old calendar or 28 June by the new or Vidovdan calendar. On that day in 1389, Serbian and Turkish armies clashed on the Kosovo.Field.
To the Serbs, Kosovo is their Holy Land, the cradle of Serbdom, which contains their inalienable historical, national, and cultural heritage. Vidovdan, 15 June 1389, is not just the date of a battle but the day the national identity was born; the will and testament containing religious, ethical, and national principles that guided all Serb generations since. In the national conscious, that historic day divides Serbian history On the Kosovo Field on Vidovdan, the Serbs chose by unwritten pledge their religious, cultural, ethical, and national identity and they live by that pledge today
I did not side with the Muslims of Albanian extraction against the Serbs the reverse is true but I still say it not our concern it is a generational ethnic and religious conflict that goes back 600 years, It might have negative implications for Israel but nowhere as negative as the Iranians with a nuke or two.and in any event there isn’t much we can or should do. I said in the past we have enough on our plate without getting into someone else’s problems. That the Serbs never supported us in any real and tangible way also also supports my position I believe. NATO will not stay forever there as peace keepers and the Serbs will have eventually another chance to redeem themselves by going in to Kosovo and reclaiming it back for Serbia and the bloodbath that we also ensue will back up my positions but by then who will remember?
.
Much of the Albanian history of revolts and rebellions is attributable to the internalization of the kanun. Bloodshed is the only remedy to dishonor; a person must arm himself at all times to be ready to protect his honor. The implications for KFOR are obvious. One of the peacekeepers’ primary tasks is confiscation of weapons, but the Albanians believe they cannot give them up. Family retribution retains honor no matter who is in control.
Comment by yamit82 — February 18, 2008 @ 12:37 pm
As the feelings are running high on this matter, and as the U.S. but not Canada has recognized Kosovo, perhaps a letter to one of the following two fellows might be helpful
Peter Mackay , Stephen Harper ,
Comment by Jonathan — February 18, 2008 @ 12:59 pm
Felix Quigley#27 Felix who would you trust a leader wo fears man or a leader who only fears God? Now even an atheist like you can decipher the difference?That the Jewish people were ethnic minorities and very impoverished ones at that had no power to to alter the political sledge hammers aimed at them by the Nazis and other antisemites in Europe. Fascism Is not so New |Note the Jewish Holiday of Purim which begins on the 20th of Feb. Pls read and you will see what I mean I hope:
JEWISH DEFENSE LEAGUE OF SHUSHAN HABIRA
I. Who Is A Jew In Shushan?
The classic age of Jewish Exile began with the story of the Book of Esther, which perhaps for that reason is the most controversial book of the Bible. N either G-d or the land of Israel are mentioned in that Book. And although the story of Joseph in Egypt already adumbrates the laws that govern the life of the Jews in the diaspora, it still deals only with the fate of one individual, while the story of what happened in Shushan relates to the collective fate of diaspora Jews. It is certainly no accident that the hero of the Book of Esther, MORDECHAI THE JEW (note this qualification - the first time it occurs in our literature) was from the tribe of Benjamin, that is a remote descendant of Joseph. Another characteristic they, Joseph and Mordechai, have in common is that both are referred to as TZADIKIM, as righteous men, to stress, as it were that although both served foreign kings they nevertheless remained righteous… And if they were so righteous, why did they stay in the diaspora rather than come to the land of Israel? Clearly in order to save the Jews of the diaspora in their hour of need.
Ostensibly we have here the beginnings of Jewish assimilation. Note that the names of the two main protagonists - Mordechai, after the Babylonian god Mardukh and Esther after the Babylonian Istar, who is the Canaanite Ashtoret. Their parents still bare Jewish names: Mordechai was the son of Yair, Esther the daughter of Avihayil. But names are not a safe indication. Early Jewish tradition clearly tells us who is considered more of a Jew, Manasseh, a king of the House of David, who worshipped foreign gods, or Mordechai who bore a heathen name but remained faithful to the one G-d? Nevertheless, both sociology and history tend to show that assimilation begins either with a change of name, or of dress. There is nothing in the Book of Esther to tell is what clothes Mordechai wore, and although Itzik Manger in his “Megille Lieder” visualized him as wearing a Streimel and a Kaften, and so do Lilien and Chagall in their paintings, these are but the visions of artists who deliberately look upon the heroes of the past with the eyes of the common people, attributing to them as great as possible an external resemblance. This is perfectly legitimate. The artist’s truth is not the truth of the archeologist. It is the truth of life.
About Esther we are told explicitly and at length what she wore and how she made herself up. But in this she only did her duty as the future reigning queen. Nor does the Torah forbid this practice. There is, however, nothing in the Book of Esther to tell us what she ate at the court Ahasuerus. It can hardly be assumed that he kept a kosher kitchen. Since she said nothing about her Jewish extraction, she could also hardly have asked to have special food prepared for her. Possibly she pretended to be on a diet as an excuse not to eat unclean food - and being a righteous woman the chances are that this was what she did - incidently improving her figure and enhancing her beauty, which was one of her main strategic weapons.
Nevertheless, there still remains the fact of her marriage to a gentile. Could this not be regarded as a legitimation of mixed marriage? Of course the text has it that she was “taken” or abducted, but what about “Kiddush HaShem”, that is, preferring martyrdom to abjuring the name of the L-rd? Yet in her case Divine providence intervened to save the entire diaspora through her, and this was her martyrdom, for she did not marry Ahasuerus out of love. What fun could she have had, living with this drunken brawler who on top of everything, according to Jewish tradition, was also a fool?
We can only hope that there will be few Jewish girls in the diaspora who go and marry Gentiles, on the excuse that they might thus have a chance of saving their brethren, and if they do, let them at least marry some ruler or king to make it worthwhile. Who knows whether a beautiful Esther might not help change PUTIN’S policy, even today? Hardly. For not every king is as stupid as Ahasuerus was, and miracles of that kind do not happen nowadays, And above all, what guarantee have we got that a contemporary Jewish beauty will behave as Esther did?
This, in fact, is the first lesson we may learn from our two protagonists: Their assimilation was only in external things. Inside, in their heart and in their being, they remained loyal Jews. Mordechai refused to bow down to Haman, even when Haman became the all-powerful prime minister, and Esther risked her life and her position to save her people. This may be the reason why Purim has become the day of eternal appearances. This is to teach is that loyalty to the Jewish people is tested in the hour of danger and need, at those times when the weak in spirit, the cowards and the traitors try to run away…often even join the other camp, the camp of the Hamans. For can you imagine a Mordechai and an Esther who would be willing to attend an anti-Zionist press conference and make anti-Israeli declarations there, as is happening now in America and Israel, Shushan. where haman is still high on his horse?
II. Who Is Haman?
Before we come to Haman and his doctrine there still is one point to clear up concerning Mordechai. Mordechai saves the life and the throne of Ahasuerus. He discovers a plot against the king, and since the story is told in romantic-poetic and not in political-historical terms, we are not told whether this is an imperialist, fascist, or Trotskyist-Maoist plot. Or perhaps it was a plot instigated by Haman himself? And now we come to the central theme which is the first presentation of anti-Semitic theory and practice. Thousands of anti-Semitic books have been written since them in every country and every language, which are all nothing but a repetition and amplification of the same basic theme stated by Haman: “There is a certain people scattered and dispersed among the peoples in all the provinces of your kingdom; their laws are different from those of every other people, and they do not keep the king’s laws, so that is not to the king’s advantage to tolerate them.” (Esther 3:8)
No clearer, more succinct definition of anti-Semitism has been formulated since. All the three elements are there: Desire for domination, particularism, disloyalty. But Haman was not only the first anti-Semite theoretician, he was also a man of action who submitted to his king, and to all the kings and rulers throughout the ages, the model plan for the FINAL SOLUTION – this time not in Berlin and not at the Kremlin, but at Shushan: “To destroy, to slay, and to annihilate all Jews, young and old, women and children, and plunder their goods” ( Esther 3:13).
III. One Cannot Rely On A Miracle
There are some hints in the Talmud that not all Jewish Leaders at that time — the period of the Second Temple when most of the leadership was spiritual rather than political-secular — were happy with the story of Shushan and the behavior of Mordechai and Esther. It is said that when Esther wanted “to be written down for the generations to come,” that is, to have her codified part of the Bible, when at first met with a blank refusal, Nevertheless, she finally managed to convince them. (Perhaps she threatened to cut off United Jewish Appeal funds which no doubt were being raised in Shushan at that time, the rich diaspora, for the residents of Jerusalem, who were economically much worse off). Still, according to the halacha the sanctity of the Book of Esther is not the same as that of all the other Scriptures. Purim, however, soon became a popular folk festival, and once the people accepted it, “the heaven followed suit”, despite the ideological qualms. A wise act indeed, for it is a good thing that the Jews, doomed to so many centuries of exile, should have one holiday that is sheer fun and delight when it is almost a virtue to get drunk; all the more so as it tends to inspire the optimistic Jewish soul with the belief that all the enemies of the Jewish People are bound to end up in the same way as Haman, though not so speedily and miraculously. Hitler’s end was in fact delayed, but with Stalin we almost experiences a similar miracle. After the famous doctors’ trial he had intended to exile all the Russian Jews to Siberia — dispatching them to their certain death, but it was his death that intervened.
By the way, it was on Purim that he died. Be that as it may — the sages of the Talmud expressly provided that one cannot and should not rely on a miracle.
IV. One Can Only Rely On One’s Own Hands . . . And Feet
If not miracles, what is there to rely upon? For Mordechai, the Jew of ancient Shushan, it was not enough to have the anti-Jewish decree revoked. He also realized that it was necessary to pray and fast — and pray and fast he did. He saw that it was necessary to plead with the king, and so he sent a certain lady to plead with him. Ultimately, he also asked the king’s permission to destroy and kill all of Haman’s followers, and if the Book of Esther says that he killed seventy-five thousand men that day it means that Haman has a whole party behind him a kind of Persian SS or El Fatah, through which he had intended to implement his final solution. On them Mordechai took his revenge.
This is a good thing to keep in mind. For, of course, there were people in the ghettoes and in the forests who fought back and took their vengeance. But they came too late. Most of the Jews of Europe were exterminated. This is a good thing to remember — lest once again we be too late. What Mordechai did in Shushan was to set up a Jewish Defense — and Revenge — League. The Book of Esther, which was compiled in Persia, says that he did so with King Ahasuerus’ consent. But who can tell. Queen Esther certainly could not tell the whole truth, how Mordechai had set up this organization long before he got official permission for it, so that it was ready when he needed it. Certainly no democratic regime can suffer in it midst an illegal organization for armed defense. On the other hand — one cannot always rely on the “establishment” and on the police. Sometimes they come too late. Nor can one always rely on the democracy of a city like Shushan. Therefore, a people that has a leader like Mordechai, a leader who can follow the triple course of faith and prayer, of political action and active defense may call itself truly blessed.
Comment by yamit82 — February 18, 2008 @ 2:16 pm
Jonathan - good idea to write a letter and I did just that…
Dear Prime Minister Stephen Harper (pm@pm.gc.ca)and Minister Peter MacKay (MacKay.P@parl.gc.ca):
I would urge Canada not to recognize Kosovo as an independent country. There
are too many failed Islamic states that are now off-limits to non-Muslims
and which have become havens for international terrorism.
Kosovo is now being targeted by wahabi propaganda and cash from Saudi Arabia
and it looks like Kosovo will continue to go down the path to radicalism and
terrorism if allowed their independence.
Also, Kosovo has been implicated in a lot of slaughter and carnage in the
past even though the international media has tended to concentrate
exclusively on Christian Serb atrocities. There seems to be a lot of bias
against Serbia and a lot of reporters and powerful individuals who tend to
put on blinders when it comes to Islamic terrorism in Kosovo.
Just because a region has a certain number of Muslims does not mean that
they necessarily need or deserve a country of their own. Muslims can and
should learn to live with all religious and cultural groups without
demanding their own countries.
The US is playing a game with Russia that has them supporting an Islamic
state in Kosovo because the Russians are meddling in Iran and other places and supplying Iran
with nuclear expertise. Two wrongs do not make a right and these matters are
too important to play high level political games between Russia and the
USA/EU.
An Islamic state will likely create more divisions, problems and more
parochial and narrow-minded thinking. Terrorism is always a factor in
Islamic states and we do not need that in Kosovo at this time.
Thanks
Comment by Gary — February 18, 2008 @ 4:06 pm
Read this article by Tamar Yonah about the cover-up of Rav Kahane’s assassination (excerpt below). It contains 3 YouTube videos and this special link to a Israel Channel Two video you must see. Got to the Click Here below:
“… Let us look at one other subject here that questions the intentions of the American – Arab/Moslem relationship towards Jews, and its foreign political agendas. Below is a very interesting documentary about the murder of Rabbi Meir Kahane z”l and the Twin Towers connection. It seems that the murderer of Rabbi Kahane was part of a Arab-Moslem terror cell newly based in America. Yet U.S. security agencies interfered with New York police from doing their job. They denied that there was any conspiracy and that the gunman was a lone gunman. They forced the police to release one of the suspects from Rav Kahane’s murder, who just happened to be one of the terrorists who was planning the bombing of the World Trade Center, that took place just a few years later. How can this be? Watch this documentary made by Israel’s channel 2. It is both in Hebrew and English. Even if you don’t understand the Hebrew, keep watching, it will switch into English soon and you should be able to follow exactly what is happening. This case is a very worrying one, and you in America, should be concerned about this cover-up. … Please click HERE to view. …”
It was George’s father, Prescott, who was arrested by the FBI for Trading With the Enemy (Hitler). Rabbi Meir Kahane was assassinated on November 5, 1990. That was on George H.W. Bush’s watch.
The outrage in Kosovo started under Bush, was executed under Clinton and continues under Gog 2. Because one of the goals of globalists is Population Control and they have stated they want to kill 11 out of 12 people on the planet, the photos we see of the butchered Christian in Serbia is exactly what they plan for the rest of the world, including for the U.S. where so many Americans actually believe that writing a letter to the White House or to their Congressman makes one whit of difference. The Nazis are in control of the political structure on the earth, but G-d allows it. Why?
How G-d can use this for his purposes is that He holds people responsible for the shedding of innocent blood, i.e. a life for a life. See Deut. 19 for a start. America has murdered 100,000 million babies in the womb, more than the number murdered in the Holocaust, and exported abortion around the world in exchange for aid, but it is little Israel which has the highest death rate to abortion per capita of any country in the world.
Da 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.
G-d raises up the basest of men, not the best, and those evil men want Population Control. G-d just calls it Judgment. The judgments of G-d are in the earth NOW.
Ps 105:7 He is the LORD our God: his judgments are in all the earth.
Comment by Teshuvah — February 18, 2008 @ 5:26 pm
I received this email
Hi Ted,
I am really surprised to see you embrace without hesitation (or so it seems) the Serb
narrative regarding Kosovo. I would suggest you do more in-depth research and not limit
yourself to Serb propaganda. The Serbs behaved in the most abominable fashion in the 90s,
veritable reincarnations of the Nazis, killing more than 200,000 innocent civilians in
Bosnia and Croatia before turning their wrath on Kosovo. Regarding the Sebrenica
massacre, they committed the worst mass massacre in Europe since WWII (see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre as just one source that tells it like it
happened). Now they try to turn the tables and blame the Kosovars for killing Serbs and
denying that Srebrenica ever happened. Sound familiar?
But here is the trick: they were bombed out by NATO to force them to stop the massacres
and have since been forced by the international community to surrender one war criminal
after another to the international tribunal in The Hague. That’s not by chance, nor is it
for imaginary crimes. Nevertheless, they figured out that what worked so well for the
Palestinians couldn’t fail to work as well for the Serbs: lie, lie, and lie again, and
people will eventually start believing your version of history. There were no large-scale
massacres of Serbs by Kosovars or Bosniaks. There definitely was killing on both sides,
but respective tallies don’t even begin to compare. The gruesome photos are pictures of
victims of the Serb killing squads that they pass as victims of non-Serbs (with the only
exception of the pictures showing Arab “volunteers”). Better yet, they’ve figured out
that by conning the Jews and their friends by playing the victims of the international
Muslim conspiracy (which we know does exist), they are sure to raise sympathy among
Israel’s friends. It is clever because it is oh so tempting to blame the radicalisation
of Kosovo of the world-wide Muslim plan to conquer the world. The thing is, the
radicalisation of the Kosovars (and of the Bosniaks before them) was entirely due to the
brutality and excesses of the Serbs. Before the Balkan wars, the Bosniaks were notorious
for being the mildest Muslims there were in Europe. The attempted genocides and ethnic
cleansings perpetrated by the Serbs radicalised many Bosniaks and Kosovars into a
militant Islam they had little sympathy and interest for before.
Sympathising with the Serbs is making a pact with the devil. Not only are they lying by
claiming that they are the victims, but they are lying again when they try to manipulate
Jews and Israelis into siding with them. I have no sympathy for the radical Kosovar and
Bosniak muslims, but the mere thought of sympathising with the very people who committed
the worst atrocities ever committed in Europe since WWII makes me positively sick. Don’t
let them feed you lies and manipulate you into believing their narrative. It is as false,
fictional and misleading a shameful rewriting of history as is the Palestinians’
successful (so far) attempt at rewriting their version of their history.
I would encourage you to delve into this subject more deeply. Diversify your sources.
Regarding the Israel-Arab countries conflict, would you rely on Palestinian sources to
find objective data and opinions? You know the answer to that one. Serb sources are as
unreliable as the Palestinian ones.
go here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre
Other than that, keep up the great work.
Comment by Ted Belman — February 18, 2008 @ 6:55 pm
Choices, choices. Lessee…
Serbs = Christians for 2,000 years who believe in LIFE and the G-d given right to defend LIFE.
Kosovars = Muslims belong to an INSANE DEATH CULT known by its lies, violence, mayhem, murder of innocents and desire for world domination.
Big choice, Ted. The one who sent you the email is a deceived fool or a Muslim. Probably the latter, although there are many deceived fools around.
Wikipedia is known to be a liberal haunt. Don’t believe everything you read there.
Comment by Teshuvah — February 18, 2008 @ 7:32 pm
Ah, yes! The Balkan Wars. I remember them well! I remember how the Greeks, Bulgarians, Romanians and everyone else except the Russians betrayed the Serbians, and let the Germans and their allies return to the Balkans as victors. I also remember looking at the Jerusalem Post every day, hoping to see the tiniest shred of even interest in (much less sympathy for) what was going on there.
I’m a Slovenian, but I was rooting for the Serbs. The Jews were rooting for nobody but themselves. Now it’s their turn to have the world community gang up on them. Why should I care about them? Their supposed “concern” about the Serbs now is too little, too late.
Comment by BlandOatmeal — February 19, 2008 @ 4:26 am
Shalom oat: glad to know where your loyalties are: and that you are Slovenian come to me as no big surprise, but I do think you have a large degree of Chutzpa(audacity)in your ascertains that the Jews were rooting for nobody but themselves. first of all in light of our History in Europe ( worlds largest Jewish Graveyard) Why should we? Civil wars have always in any event clouded rights and wrongs as ea. side will claim God and rigtt is on their side and History adds little in helping an outsider to determine who to support. Since you say you are Slovenian I would say you least of all have any moral or Historical right in criticizing any Jew!!
History of the Jews in Slovenia
The small Jewish community of Slovenia (Slovenian: Judovska skupnost Slovenije) is estimated at 400 to 600 members[citation needed], with most living in the capital, Ljubljana. The Jewish community was devastated by the Shoah, and has never fully recovered. Until 2003, Ljubljana was the only European capital city without a Jewish place of worship.
History of the community
Ancient communit
The Jewish community of Slovenia pre-dates the 6th century Slavic migration to the Slovenian Lands. The first Jews arrived in Slovenia in Roman times, with archaeological evidence of Jews found in Maribor and Škocjan. In Škocjan, an engraved menorah dating from the 5th century AD was found in a graveyard.
In the 12th century, Jews arrived in the Slovenian Lands fleeing poverty in Italy and central Europe. Even though they were forced to live in ghettos, many Jews prospered. Relations between Jews and Slovenes were generally peaceful. In Maribor, Jews were successful bankers, winegrowers and millers. Several “Jewish Courts” (judovsko sodiš?e) existed in Styria, though not in Carniola or Carinthia, settling disputes between Jews and Christians. Israel Isserlein, who authored several essays on medieval Jewish life in Slovenia, was the most important rabbi at the time, having lived in Maribor. In 1397, Jewish ghettos in Radgona and Ptuj were set ablaze by a secret society called Ungenannte Judenhauer.(The name, translated from German, means “Anonymous Jew-beaters”)
The first synagogue in Ljubljana is mentioned in 1213. Issued with a Privilegium, Jews were able to settle an area of Ljubljana located on the left bank of the Ljubljanica River. The streets Židovska ulica and Židovska steza, which now occupy the area, are still reminiscent of that period. The wealth of the Jews bred resentment among the rulers and nobility of the Slovenian Lands, with many refusing to repay Jewish money-lenders. Individual regions began expelling their Jews already in the 16th century, with the last Jews expelled by 1718.
The modern era
In 1709 Charles VI, Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire (and ruler of the Slovenian Lands), issued a decree allowing Jews to return to the Slovenian Lands. Nevertheless, Jews in that time settled almost exlusively in the commercial city of Trieste and, to a much smaller extent, in the town of Gorica, which are now both part of Italy. The decree was overturned in 1817 by Francis I, and Jews were granted full civil and political right only with the Austro-Hungarian constitution of 1867. Nevertheless, the Slovenian Lands remained virtually without a consistent Jewsih population, with the exception of Gorizia, Trieste, the region of Prekmurje and some smaller towns in the western part of the County of Gorizia and Gradisca (Gradisca, Cervignano), which were inhabited mostly by a Friulian-speaking population. According to the census of 1910, only 146 Jews lived in the territory of modern Slovenia, excluding the Prekmurje region.
Rampant anti-Semitism was among the causes why few Jews decided to settle in the area, mantaining the overall Jewish population at a very low level. In the 1920s, After the formation of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (Yugoslavia), the local Jewish community merged with the Jewish community of Zagreb, Croatia.
According to the 1931 census, there were about 900 Jews in the Drava Banovina, mostly concentrated in Prekmurje, which used to be part of the Kingdom of Hungary until 1919. This was the reason why in the mid 1930s Murska Sobota became the seat of the Jewish Community of Slovenia. During that period, the Jewish population was reinvigorated by many immigrants fleeing from neighouring Austria and Nazi Germany to a more tollerant Kingdom of Yugoslavia. Nevertheless, the anti-Jewish legislation, adopted by Milan Stojadinovi?’s pro-German regime and the anti-semitic discourse of Anton Korošec’s Slovenian People’s Party, made Slovenia a less desirable destination.
The number of Jews prior to the Axis invasion of Yugoslavia in April 1941 is estimated to around 2,500.
The Holocaust
The Jewish community, very small even before World War II and the Shoah, was further reduced by the Nazis occupation between 1941 and 1945.
Post-war community
Under Communism in Yugoslavia, the Jewish community in Socialist Slovenia numbered fewer than 100 members. In 1953, the synagogue of Murska Sobota, the only remaining after the Shoah, was demolished by the local Communist authorities. Many Jews were expelled from Yugoslavia as “Germans” and most of Jewish property was confiscated. The Judovska Ob?ina v Ljubljani (Jewish Community of Ljubljana) was officially reformed following World War II; its first president was Artur Kon, followed by Mladen Aleksander Švarc in 1957. In 1969, it numbered only 84 members and its membership was declining due to emigration and age. Berta Bojetu, Miriam Steiner (Vojak z zlatimi gumbi) and Zlate Medic-Voka? (Marpurgi) were Jewish authors who wrote in Slovene.
Today
The Jewish community today is estimated at 400-600 members, although there are only 130 members of the Jewish Community of Slovenia. The community is mixed Ashkenazi and Sephardi descent. In 1999, the first ever Chief Rabbi for Slovenia was appointed after 1941. The present chief rabbi for Slovenia, Ariel Haddad, resides in Trieste and is a member of the Lubavitcher Hassidic school. The current president
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Comment by yamit82 — February 19, 2008 @ 5:29 am
BlandOatmeal: Your comment ascribes a power and influence to the Jewish people/Israel that they don’t have. The opinions, knowledge and interest in what happens in the Balkans varies from person to person and Israel, as a democratic country, does not impose thought control on its population as is done in some Muslim countries.
I am sure that if you go back to the newspapers of the day that you would find a broad cross section of opinions on the ethnic cleansing that was carried out by Muslims in Kosovo (as a result of intolerance and an inability to live in peace with other religions, people and cultures) and the many atrocities that were part of the war at the time.
I am not sure what you are suggesting by holding all “Jews” responsible for the outcome (the self-declaration of independence by Muslims in Kosovo) and for not collectively speaking out, but it looks a lot like the accusations that some make about the exaggerated wealth and power of the Jewish people that always precedes some kind of collective punishment based on this stereotype (as if any one people can agree on anything en masse).
Kosovo independence is a dangerous precedent and now people (such as myself) are waking up. It will impact how other groups such as the French in Quebec conduct their own plans to declare statehood. It also affects the Palestinian situation and many other people and places that are on the brink of separation. It has enormous implications. I now understand the people on this forum who have been protesting in very loud and clear language about the history of this situation and the importance of a balanced understanding of the past and present events in that part of the world.
Comment by Gary — February 19, 2008 @ 8:47 am
Ted,
That letter was a masterful stroke of propaganda — artificially putting Serbs on “the Palestinian side”.
But all the facts say just the opposite and there are more concrete similarities between the Albanians and Palestinians, than with anything Serb-related — both the Palestinians and Kosovo Albanians are Muslim, the supposed ethnic identities of “Palestinian”, “Kosovar” and “Bosniak” are artificial political creations designed to fool the public, Palestinians and Kosovars are interlopers who are trying to violate the sovereignty of recognized countries by claiming land that is not their own, both were WWII allies of the Nazis to kill Serbs and Jews. The Kosovo Albanians ARE Serbia’s Palestinians, and sooner or later, this will become all too apparent to Israel.
As for Yamit, every time we get on this subject I allow myself to get dragged into defending Serbia during WWII due to you omitting inconvenient facts.
The Serb Regent of Yugoslavia had an open offer from Germany to allow Yugoslavia as a pass-through to Greece — all Serbia had to do was hand over their Jews and and allow the Nazis to pass. The Regent Paul, backed into a corner, signed it and the Serbian people rose up against the agreement at great cost to themselves. Belgrade was bombed by the German Luftwaffe for weeks in Operation Punishment The Serbs resisted as hard as they could, but eventually a handful of fascists Serbs who had never been elected to anything were used by the Germans. That WWII resistance is why Serbs are where they are today — the grandson of one of those Luftwaffe pilots was one of those who helped design the the NATO plan for the 1999 NATO Bombing of Yugoslavia. If in all this research, you haven’t figured out that in the break-up of Yugoslavia, all of those ethnic groups — the Slovenes, the Croats, the Bosnian Muslims (the WWII Mufti of Jerusalem’s favorites), the Albanians — who once supported Nazi Germany came out on top, and the one ethnic group who resisted Nazi Germany — the Serbs– are the one people getting screwed. Which is why, Leon Kojen (yes, he is Jewish) was the Serbian negotiator for Kosovo until last year.
Open your eyes — dislike Serbs if you like because they aren’t perfect and they don’t have to be your “best friends”– but the same groups who allied with Nazi Germany during WWII are back and that is the reason that anti-Semitism is up all over Europe. Know who your enemies are, before you decide who your friends are. There are no “gray areas” in war — and make no mistake, we are at war for our lives and our souls.
BB
Comment by Bokababe — February 19, 2008 @ 3:06 pm
There is an immutable biblical principle of what you sow, you reap and that multiplied. Those in countries desiring the division of the land in other countries are subject to G-d’s judgment to divide their own land. Unfortunately most of the world has no fear of G-d. He does however hold people and nations responsible for their decisions, even if those decisions are made by evil leaders.
Comment by Teshuvah — February 19, 2008 @ 4:21 pm
Comment by yamit82 — February 19, 2008 @ 5:52 pm
Bill
You presented your arguments and Enigmax took you to task. I thought that he made valid points. Whether you think he misunderstood you or not is for your defense. The same way you take others to task he took you to task and with the same skill. That doesn’t mean when you do it, you are right or in this instance when he did it, he was right. But he has every right to attempt to hoist you on your own petard and he did so.
Comment by Ted Belman — February 19, 2008 @ 8:34 pm
Ted,
On the issue of the Serbs and the Muslims, you have become as fanatical as Enigmax and others who will not countenance any statement, even one of a fact that does not accord 100% with their pro-Serb view, the way their views are expressed, that is perceived as something less then 100% support for their views or which questions whether diaspora Jews and Israel do owe a special and higher duty to the Serbs stemming from both being victims of the Nazis then do anyone else and if so why?
I stand by my comments, I stand by what I said of Enigmax’s debating me on points I did not make and I can only conclude from your comments that you have become as much the irrational zealot as Enigmax on this topic.
Comment by Bill Narvey — February 20, 2008 @ 7:58 am
Yamit
Re your post above, I think no 41
The issue at stake is that judaism could not defend the Jews against the Nazis, and secondly on my contention that Fascism is a mosern phenomenon which is intimately connected with the death agony of the capitalist system
So you write;
You have indeed helped to make my point.Obviously I have both great respect and greatly support bot Jews and their religion of Judaism, and the two go closely together.
But I look at the question objectively because it was an objective phenomenon in every respect.
The jews and their religion were unable to meet and to destroy the Nazis
That is actually connected with your own confusion on what Fascism is. I insist that Fascism is a modern phenomenon, which grows directly out of capitalism in mortal crisis.
Not only jews could not deal with this, but also reformist social democracy and stalinism. They were proved to be politically bankrupt and led the great defeats at the hands of Fascism.
judaism is a religion and a philosophy of living with many fine qualities, very ancient, but it is not revolutionaruy socialism. Only ther policies of Leon Trotsky if followed could have led to the defeat of Fascism.
That is why Ray who lumps Trotskyism, Stalinism, Social Democracy etc all together and labels the lot as “Leftism” is so pernicious. it prevents any understanding of history.
All this is relevant to an understanding of the pictures above.
Unless we can have agreement on Fascism as a modern phenomenon growing out of the imperialist capitalist system we cannot argue.
Comment by Felix Quigley — February 20, 2008 @ 9:26 am
Bill you seem to be one of those who cannot take criticism or disapproval by anyone especially Ted. Your pique is all the more ringing due to the fact that you are largely wrong or choose the wrong sides in your arguments, that of course is my opinion and I stand on it. that being said without either going into the History of the Serb and Balkans conflicts I suggest a simple formula by which most of us here on Pundit might agree and that is:THE ENEMY OF MY ENEMY IS MY FRIEND AND OR THE ENEMY OF MY FRIEND IS MY ENEMY AS WELL!!!! This puts us on the side of Serbia, Not because I agree with Serbia or think they are the aggrieved party but because I view Muslim Stat in Kosovo as another Mortal enemy of the Jews!!!
Comment by yamit82 — February 20, 2008 @ 9:51 am
Bill
It is not enough for you to argue “it ain’t necessarily so” you must present facts to support a different conclusion. And such facts must be enough to turn Nathan’s whole thesis on its head and not just poke a hole in it.
So are you saying he is wrong. That’s the only question. Yes or no.
If the answer is “yes” then make your case, one that is more compelling than his.
While his case is not without blemish because nothing is absolute or black or white, but we must take sides none the less. I side with him.
In a presidential election we may see things we like about either contestant but in the end we must decide. Same here.
Comment by Ted Belman — February 20, 2008 @ 10:18 am
Yamit,
According to reports, a great many, if not most of the Muslims of the Kosovo area are radicalized and as such stand firmly against Israel. If Kosovo is recognized as a full fledged voting member of the U.N., they will doubtless join the O.I.C. against Israel.
Credible reports have also surfaced that some of the radical Jihadist terrorist acts in the world have been committed by Albanian Muslims.
Kosovo becoming an independent state however, other then lending an anti-Israel voice at the U.N. and in the court of public opinion, will not in my view increase the number of Muslims in the region of Kosovo, leaving their land to join in Jihad against the West or Israel. That is already happening and will continue to happen whether Kosovo becomes a state or not.
That Europeans are threatened from Jihadist Muslims in Kosovo and knowing the region is becoming increasingly radicalized, it boggles the mind why the EU would for the most part support Kosovo becoming an independent state, even if they are convinced it was the Serbs who were the villains in the Balkan wars of the 1990’s. Since it is now the increasingly radicalized Muslims of Kosovo that pose a real threat to the EU, one would have thought that the EU would stand by the Serbs to prevent that from happening.
As for the nations, such as Greece and Turkey that have come out against the Muslims of Kosovo having their own independent state, that has nothing to do with their believing that the Muslims were the villains in the Balkan wars of the 1990’s and that it is immoral to support the Muslims of Kosovo in their quest.
Rather they are fearful of it establishing not only a precedent, but a motivation for ethnic communities within their nations, to fight for their own national self determination, demand their own break away state and then see that the rest of the EU and the world, siding with these ethnic minorities.
So in a nutshell, I do not disagree with you or with Enigmax to the extent he might make that same point. Nor did I necessarily disagree with what Enigmax was saying.
My disagreement had only to do with the fact that Enigmax was disingenuously seeking to score debating points with me by making arguments against points I did not make.
My disagreement with Enigmax and Ted is as simple as that.
Comment by Bill Narvey — February 20, 2008 @ 10:38 am
“Secretary General of the Organisation of The Islamic Conference, Prof. Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu says that the organization is rejoicing that Kosovo separatists have declared independence views the new state as an asset to Islam.”
http://www.serbianna.com/news/2008/01430.shtml
Comment by Jo.S — February 20, 2008 @ 10:54 am
Mr. Narvey, you ascribed and attributed to Nathan Pearlstein’s introduction to the main article a plethora of points he did not actually make at all.
I read enimax’s reply to you and I can see that he honestly and in good faith took you to task for doing precisely just that to Nathan’s introductory remarks.
It’s a little like the pot calling the kettle black for you to accuse enigmax of being an “irrational zealot”; of being “venal”, “dishonest”, “disingenuous” and engaging in “pontification” and “sarcasm”, now isn’t it Bill?
Comment by InfidelWarrior — February 20, 2008 @ 11:17 am
Last Month in Croatia :
First: Neo-nazi threats to Serbs and Jews in Croatia
15.1.2008.Today on the 15th of January 2008 in the late afternoon hours, church community in Split has received a letter full of national hatred and with neo-nazi threats in which it is claimed that Serbs and Jews in Croatia will and sholud be slaughtered and butchered.In this appalling letter fascism and ustashi; Ante Pavelic and «holy» concentration camps of Jasenovac and Stara Gradiska are praised; it is also full of awful menaces such as «Serbs to be butchered», «Juden raus» and some such.
Besides, it is said in this petrifying note that Serbs in Croatia should be exterminated; and death threats are even send to the president of Croatia Stjepan Mesic.
The police has been informed about this case and the investigation is ongoing.
———————————————————————————————————-
Then: The Orthodox Cathedral in Split attacked again
Just a couple of days after the letter with neo-nazi threats addressed to the Orthodox church community in Split, another violent attack occured this morning, on the 18th of January 2008, when it has been discovered that the doors and walls of the manse are full of neo-nazi and ustashi grafitti, such as: «Serbs to be butchered!» together with ustashi simbol of capital letter U with a sign of cross above it.
These disturbing events, which lately occur very frequently on the territory of the Dalmatian Diocese augur badly for the ominous time of the Second World War when a lot of people lost their lives only because of their nationality or faith.
However, it is of great concern, if there are such people, who so furiously attack Church, knowing that its mission is to preach Gospel and the values of evangelic love, which it does in the spirit od truth and peace.
If these vandals remain anonymous and unpunished, we are afraid that the whole situation might become more complicated and provoke even more sufferings. Believers of the Serbian Orthodox Church are constantly praying to God to put an end to this present agony; and that our Lord may soften the hearts of those vandals and preclude their hate towards the Serbian Orthodox Christians, as well as towards the Jews - the nation from which Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Most Holy Theotokos and all Holy Apostles originated.
Everyone who blasphems God and His sanctuaries is deprived of His blessings in this world as well as in the world that is to come. As for the matters of this world, Orthodox church community in Split, as well as, the Diocese appeal to state institutions in Croatia to protect their citizens – Orthodox Serbs, and citizens of other nationalities, so they might all live in peace and mutal understanding
Comment by Bokababe — February 20, 2008 @ 11:47 am
I’ve produced a video plugging this very important thread at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2DLa_XM7yQ
The fact that there’s a 10 minute limit on Youtube videos and that I was containing my anger and disgust, means it is not quite what I wanted to produce. However, I think it gets the message out particularly when combined with the links in the description column which I advise viewers to read.
Feel free to embed it in blogs far and wide, if you feel it will help.
Comment by Nigel — February 20, 2008 @ 12:09 pm
Unholy Alliance: The CIA & KLA
Central to the manufacturing of the war against Yugoslavia was the role of the Kosovo Liberation Army, a gang of fascist terrorists that collaborated with the imperialist nations. But the KLA-imperialist connection is much deeper: the imperialist armies and intelligence agencies funded, trained, armed, advised, and even commanded the KLA, transforming it into a significant military force. The nature of the KLA is still of great importance because it reveals much about the nature of the imperialist powers and because the KLA remains a major force in Kosovo and does not have and never did have any intention of disbanding or relinquishing power.
Perhaps confusion about the Kosovo Liberation Army originates with the organization’s deceptive name. The army is not from Kosovo.
According to The New York Times, the original terrorists were joined by “foreign mercenaries” who “speak German better than they do Albanian” and put on German army uniforms after quitting jobs in Europe, primarily Germany and Switzerland, to fly to Kosovo in planes full of recruits.
The Washington Post added that all of the KLA’s funding comes from abroad, primarily the United States, and that the US KLA support group has raised over $4 million, helped greatly by its US public relations firm, Ruder Finn, which has a long history as a propagandist for CIA dirty wars.
Liberation was not the KLA’s goal; the leadership made no secret of its desire for ethnic purification, finishing what the Nazi invasion began during World War II.
And finally, the title of Army seems a bit of a self-glorifying exaggeration for a group that assassinated civilians, ran away when another army came to fight in favor of letting its NATO air force handle the war, and only returned when the Yugoslav army had left.
The KLA’s official beginning came in 1996, when the group proudly announced responsibility for a massacre of refugees. But the real roots of the KLA, and the war in Kosovo, are the macroeconomic policies and institutions of imperialism. An article in Polyconomics, run by a former Wall Street Journal editor, found in a report that “ordinary people turned into ethnic monsters only after all their options for a normal economic life were destroyed. “Ethnic cleansing” arrived only after “shock therapy” had done its work.” Canadian author Michel Chussodovsky explained in greater detail:
“The break-up of the Yugoslav federation bears a direct relationship to the program of macro-economic restructuring imposed on the Belgrade government by its external creditors. This program, adopted in several stages since 1980, contributed to triggering the collapse of the national economy, leading to the disintegration of the industrial sector and the piecemeal dismantling of the welfare state. Secessionist tendencies, feeding on social and ethnic divisions, gained impetus precisely during a period of brutal impoverishment of the Yugoslav population.”
It would be absurd to credit the KLA with any positive political leanings; KLA leader Jakup Krasniqi conceded, “I do not think we have an ideology. We do not have time for such things.” Nevertheless, both the leadership and the rank and file have an agenda that they sought to promote through war and to which they remain committed. The ultimate goal was to create an ethnically pure state where all other ethnicities would be driven out or killed, to finish the effort that began a half-century before through the collaboration of the Nazis and the KLA soldiers’ “fathers and grandfathers [who] fought with fascist Italy against the Serbs during World War II.” (NYT) An article in Foreign Affairs described the current movement:
“[It is] led by sons and grandsons of the rightist Albanian fighters either the heirs of those who fought in the World War II fascist militias and the Skanderbeg volunteer SS division raised by the Nazis, or the descendents of the rightist Albanian kacak rebels who rose up against the Serbs 80 years ago.
The decision by the KLA commanders to dress their police in black fatigues and order their fighters to salute with a clenched fist to the forehead has led many to worry about these fascist antecedents. Following such criticism, the salute has been changed to the traditional open-palm salute common in the U.S. Army.”
It should be noted that the US worried not that the KLA was a fascist organization, but that it would become evident that it was a fascist organization. With the clothing and salute abandoned, the KLA no longer appeared fascist on the outside; it is, however, still very much a fascist force on the inside.
Another cause for concern in the imperialist network was the connection between the KLA and criminal syndicates in Albania, Turkey and the EU, particularly with respect to the KLA’s heavy involvement in the heroin trade.</a>
However, this raised alarm primarily in Europe, where the issue was widely publicized, and did not disturb the CIA, which has long encouraged the drug trade as a source of revenue for its dirty wars.
Hashim Thaci, the head of the KLA, is a favorite of Madeleine Albright, James Rubin, and the rest of the imperialist establishment.
It is easy to see why: he murdered rival leaders in the KLA and Albanian nationalist movements and killed, arrested, or purged anyone who appeared hostile, according to The New York Times. As an Albanian nationalist aligned with Ibrahim Rugova noted, “cadavers have never been an obstacle to Thaci’s career.”
Very similar to many other past and present agents of imperialism, he is a ruthless military leader who made the KLA powerful by “threaten[ing] to kill villagers and burn their homes if they did not join the KLA,” according to the US State Department, which encouraged Americans to send him money.
To accomplish their goals, Thaci and the KLA began with assassinations and bombings that were intended to increase repression by Belgrade. “Any armed action we undertook would bring retaliation against civilians,” Thaci explained. “We knew we were endangering a great number of civilian lives.” But, as Dug Gorani, a non-KLA Kosovo Albanian negotiator said, “The more civilians were killed, the chances of international intervention became bigger, and the KLA of course realized that. There was this foreign diplomat who once told me, ‘Look, unless you pass the quota of five thousand deaths you’ll never have anybody permanently present in Kosovo from foreign diplomacy.’”
When attempts to create real carnage failed, the US ambassador announced a massacre in the village of Racak that served as the pretext for the war. Later, reports in two of France’s largest newspapers and video from Associated Press TV journalists found major holes in the story, leading to the conclusion that the KLA faked the massacre by redressing and accumulating its own dead.
Working closely with the KLA throughout this entire period were the imperialist powers, notably the United States. Immediately before the war began, Robert Gelbard, the senior US envoy to the Balkans, called the KLA a terrorist organization.
The State Department naturally labeled the KLA a terrorist organization, too, but then suddenly changed its mind so that people could send money to the group. It was still a terrorist organization, only now it was a US-supported terrorist organization.
A long list of agencies from the US and Europe aided the KLA. Jane’s Defense Weekly, reporting “special forces involvement confirmed,” said that units from Britain, France, the US, and other NATO countries were working undercover in Kosovo. The London Telegraph reported that the KLA was working with the US paramilitary mercenary company, MPRI, and that the British special forces unit, SAS, ran KLA training camps in Albania, from which KLA soldiers entered Kosovo.
The French press agency, AFP, reported that three French army officers died while commanding the KLA. PBS “Newshour” reported that US veterans were training KLA soldiers. The Sunday Times wrote that the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe gave the KLA equipment to communicate with NATO. The paper also interviewed multiple sources working for the CIA who admitted to training KLA soldiers and “giving covert assistance to the KLA.”
Most important of all in supporting the KLA was probably the collaborative effort of the CIA and the German Bundes Nachrichten Dienst, which together supplied funding, German uniforms, East German weapons, other equipment, and training to the KLA. The entire imperialist network was thus at war with Yugoslavia long before the official fighting began.
It has been shown, using exclusively pro-US sources, that the imperialist countries played a central role in creating, training, and arming the KLA, a band of proudly fascist terrorists.
The more interesting and significantly more important question of why imperialism allied itself with the fascist terrorists and concocted the war against Yugoslavia is a subject for another essay, but an uncharacteristically insightful explanation was provided by President Clinton:
“If we’re going to have a strong economic relationship that includes our ability to sell around the world, Europe has got to be a key …. That’s what this Kosovo thing is all about.”
Comment by JoshR — February 20, 2008 @ 12:39 pm
Nigel I checked out your video. Good work. Could you set up a Power Point presentation of these pictures and some comments.
Enigmax and Nathan are working on an article which gives the background to the conflict starting with the Muslim provocations.
I am going to ask them to write an article which illustrates the commonalities between that conflict between Serbs and Muslims and the one between the Jews and the Arabs.
The parallels are astounding. They include, the propagation of hate among the Muslims, the fabrication of “atrocities by the Muslims, the complicity of the western media and leftist organizations, the help by the US and the EU, the terrorism, the involvement of Saudi Arabia and Iran, the complicity of the UN, the attempt to create another Muslim State even if it is terrorist, the violation of sovereignty of Serbs by taking their land of of Jews by denying the Palestine Mandate which held the land on trust for the Jews.
Comment by Ted Belman — February 20, 2008 @ 12:56 pm
Ted & All,
Daniel Greenfield on IsraeleNews did a really good article on the subject today: Kosovo and Islam`s Balkanization of the World It’s a classic on the subject.
BB
Comment by Bokababe — February 20, 2008 @ 1:28 pm
And the comparisons have already begun between Kosovo & Palestine. “Palestinians should follow Kosovo example: negotiator”
Comment by Bokababe — February 20, 2008 @ 1:31 pm
Thanks BB
I reposted Daniels article.
Comment by Ted Belman — February 20, 2008 @ 2:37 pm
Infidel Warrior and all pro-Serb fanatical extremists who have found a home on Israpundit,
Infidel Warrior, you are dead wrong to say:
At least you managed to notice that the points I did raise had nothing to do with Nathan Pearlstein’s introduction. That was because I did not raise those points and facts to take issue with him or the article. I simply raised some additional facts that I thought were of some relevance and worth noting.
The only point I did raise to question Nathan Pearlstein’s view, was on the very narrow point of just one of his statements, which was:
I assumed Nathan was very deliberate in his using reference to the word patriotism, especially when it comes to his calling on diaspora Jews and Israelis to speak out in favor of the Serbs. I questioned the basis for that statement as regards the use of the word patriotism. That was it.
Notwithstanding that, you zealous pro-Serb contingent of commenters on Israpundit, including it appears yourself, are not capable of countenancing anyone daring to disagree with you, in even the slightest way on any of your views which you claim your perfect logic brings you to after accepting as absolute truth, that the Serbs were the innocents and the Muslims the villains in the Balkan wars of the 1990’s.
Nor it appears, will pro-Serb fanatics tolerate anyone mentioning a fact that does not seem to fit into the way they want to see things.
The reaction I have received to my single question as to the basis for Nathan Pearlstein saying this was an issue of patriotism for diaspora Jews and Israelis, is the same kind of angry irrational reaction I received last year, when I dared to ask some questions or take issue with the logic of pro-Serb zealots that flowed from their facts.
Last year, I dared to ask some question or challenge some views, always premised on my accepting the position of these pro-Serb fanatics, that it was the Serbs who were the innocents and the Muslims the villains.
The reaction I got from these pro-Serb extremists was blind, irrational raging diatribes and accusations premised first on accusing me of rejecting their conclusion that the Serbs were innocent in spite of my clearly saying otherwise, badly mis-stating what I did say or attributing to me implications that were utter nonsense and then their proceeding to launch into disingenuous and dishonest argumentative tirades as well as accusing me of supporting Oliver Kamm, Tom Lantos, and Joe Lieberman on the issue of the Serb-Muslim 1990’s wars.
In fact, I hardly knew what these people were saying on the issue, beyond knowing that these pro-Serb fanatical extremists were enraged by them. I guess since pro-Serb fanatics revile these aforementioned people, accusing me of being in league with them was their ultimate insult.
Now again, I come up against pro-Serb fanatical extremists, whose fanaticism deprives them of all logic and reason and leaves them only with hate towards anyone whose views do not precisely correspond with their’s or who dares to ask a question or raise other facts that are or may be relevant to the discussion, but which may not fit into the way they want things to look.
To all you pro-Serb fanatical extremists who have found a home on Israpundit, as far as I can see, you are a disgrace to the whole idea of civil, reasoned and honest discussion and debate with anyone who might disagree, even slightly with the way you think or express yourselves or who might mention some point or fact you have not thought of or observed and which does not fit within your perception of how things look or should look.
You only appear to have the capacity for civility when it comes to discussing and debating amongst yourselves as you applaud your brother fanatics for agreeing with you or in your trying to outdo one another in the way you seek to express views that you are all in agreement with.
I know what you pro-Serb fanatical extremists think of me.
I just did not want to leave any room for doubt in your minds as to exactly what I think of you.
Comment by Bill Narvey — February 20, 2008 @ 3:02 pm
Thanks Ted!
BB
Comment by Bokababe — February 20, 2008 @ 3:07 pm
felix: T
Felix the Jews are still around and going strong on the world stage . Where are the Nazis today? It is a given that if the Question of Israel were to come up for a vote today it would be overwhelmingly be rejected. Largely due to the holocaust Israel got those few needed votes to have resolution passed. This is what I call God directed history. Even an ex Catholic can surely see something out of the ordinary taking place before our eyes.I should not exist according to your realism nor should any Jew. we defy your realism past theory , present theory and future! Your belief and trust is in man and his Brain but as no two philosophers have ever agreed one with another you must surely see the fault on relying only on the Brain and good will of Man? In the Purim story I tried not so successfully to point out that antisemitism and state fascism have ancient roots .. BEEN THERE DONE THAT!! There is nothing new under Heaven, The Hebrew Year is 5768, There is nothing today that is happening to the Jew that we have not experienced before during our long history. History defines winners and losers by who is the last man standing. It will always be the Jew!! Even if we are greatly depleted!!
Comment by yamit82 — February 20, 2008 @ 3:29 pm
Bill,
It really surprises me to hear this from you, because I meant to tell you that I agreed with your earlier statement about “finding it hard to locate Serbs to stand with”.
Serb governments not “completely innocent” in the civil wars that consumed Yugoslavia, any more than the Israeli government is “completely innocent” in every altercation with Palestinians. That does not make it a 50/50 in either case, nor does it make all Serbs or all Israelis all “guilty” of anything. Fighting wars for your survival is never clean & perfect, and both our peoples are struggling with this.
The reason why some Serb activists have “found a home here” as you put it, is that we see not only the parallels of both struggles, but the direct implication of one struggle on another — and some of us saw it years ago already in the making. Politics is a chess game planning many moves ahead, not just checkers with an action & reaction. Some people see the checkmate with a few opening moves and some don’t.
It is no coincidence that only a few days after Kosovo Independence you get articles like this: “Palestinians should follow Kosovo example: negotiator” This is the beginning, Bill, not the end. There is no way that the West would have spent so much time & money on this, breaking every international law if this were just about “Serbia & Kosovo”. This is a chess move to take out Israel, and if you can’t see it then I am sorry. But Ted & many others here, can see it.
BB
Comment by Bokababe — February 20, 2008 @ 3:29 pm
Bill: Stop using terms like radicalized Islam etc. That is the mental trap you can’t seem to escape!
Among major world powers, both Russia and China are opposed to an independent Kosovo. Even within Europe there are nations that oppose this independence — Spain — and others where many are uneasy. It would have been politically possible for the American government to have thought a bit more about the implications, the consequences, of having another Muslim state — the product of centuries of Ottoman rule — within Europe, and to have thought a bit more about the historical treatment of the Serbs under that same Ottoman rule, and their understandable bitterness.
There is an independent Albania. Those Albanians who might wish to be in a state that politically embodies their desires could move. The notion that when Muslim populations exist, they must never be asked to endure minority status, and that only the non-Muslim populations are to be asked to do so, is wrong.
There are problems with mere head-counting. One are the tricks one can play with the region whose heads are being counted. If you rip Kosovo out of Serbia, then you will indeed have an area, “Kosovo,” where the Albanians constitute most of the population. Is that the end of the matter? I can find, and so can you, all kinds of places, now part of larger countries, where this or that minority constitute, in a particular area or city, the majority — even if they are the minority elsewhere. So what?
Surely there were other things to consider. What has happened to Serbian monasteries and churches in places now under full Albanian control — that is, those Albanians who are Muslim? Is there a tradition of treating non-Muslims, in this case Serbs, well or ill?
In alerting people to the attacks on Serbs, to the destruction of ancient monasteries, on the infiltration into the area of Arabs with a brand of Islam quite different from the relaxed, syncretistic, version — not exactly full-bodied Islam in practice, because that local practice was affected by the centuries of proximity to non-Muslims, and to the effect of Communism, one is not endorsing any massacres by some Serbs. One can distance oneself — most Serbs do, unfeignedly — from Milosevich and those atrocities that were committed by some Serb forces. And one can also keep in mind both the exaggerations of those atrocities, and the minimizing or even ignoring not only of the atrocities committed by the Muslims, as well as the entire history of the area, the centuries of Muslim rule, the devshirme, and the deep fears evoked when Izetbegovic wrote that he intended to create a Muslim state and impose the Shari’a. Had the Western world shown the slightest intelligent sympathy or understanding of what that set off in the imagination of many Serbs, there might never have been such a reaction, and someone like Milosevic might never have obtained power.
Why wasn’t there? Why didn’t those in the West study what Izetbegovic said? Why didn’t they read what Serb historians, and writers, including Ivo Andric (in his doctoral dissertation, recently-reprinted, “The Development of Spiritual Life in Bosnia under the Influence of Turkish Rule”) were aware of, and that had never been forgotten? When Clinton ordered the bombing of the Serbs, had he heard, ever, about the devshirme? Did he know that Izetbegovic had written about imposing the shari’a? No, of course not. But had he, and had others, they might have reassured the Serbs long before, and helped to make them less panicky, less prone to give power to someone like Milosevic. The West entirely mishandled Serbia.
And right now, despite the dribs and drabs that begin to come out about the exaggerations on which criticism and bombing of Serbians was based, despite the new evidence, or the evidence no longer hidden, of past Muslim atrocities, the Western world still seems ready to overlook what is now happening. And what is now happening are attacks on Serbian villagers, and the destruction of Serbian churches, in Kosovo. Is one supposed to permanently blame Serbia, and never take its side, because of what Milosevic did? Is one to overlook the role of Bosnia as a place of training for those who could tomorrow be conducting Jihad anywhere in the world?
There is no reason not to take Serbia’s side now. There is every reason — of principle and of Infidel self-interest — to take it.
Perhaps the rule should be, all over the Western and larger Infidel world, this: whatever makes the Umma happy, or the O.I.C. happy, is to be opposed for that very reason. That’s a rule of thumb. What, after all, is Man, if not Homo pollex?
Comment by yamit82 — February 20, 2008 @ 3:36 pm
Mr. Narvey,
I’ve seen some emotional outbursts on the pages of various discussion forums in my time but your hysterical attack on everyone here who disagrees with your views really takes the proverbial cake.You really need to take a chill-out pill, Bill.
Contrary to what you claim, I am not a “fanatical pro-Serb extremist”. I am someone who cares for exposing the irrefutable facts presented here proving Islamofascist genocide actually occurred in the former Yugoslavia.
You claim that
Nathan Pearlstein’s use of the word “patriotism” was not in that context at all and that was clearly explained to you by enigmax.But you choose not to acceept that.That’s your prerogative.
Bill,how about providing some factual hard evidence and documentation in support of your contrary views and opinions regarding the points made by people whom you disagree with instead of just name-calling, ad hominem labelling and insults?
Comment by InfidelWarrior — February 20, 2008 @ 3:46 pm
Unholy Alliance: The CIA & KLA
Central to the manufacturing of the war against Yugoslavia was the role of the Kosovo Liberation Army, a gang of fascist terrorists that collaborated with the imperialist nations. But the KLA-imperialist connection is much deeper: the imperialist armies and intelligence agencies funded, trained, armed, advised, and even commanded the KLA, transforming it into a significant military force. The nature of the KLA is still of great importance because it reveals much about the nature of the imperialist powers and because the KLA remains a major force in Kosovo and does not have and never did have any intention of disbanding or relinquishing power.
Perhaps confusion about the Kosovo Liberation Army originates with the organization’s deceptive name. The army is not from Kosovo.
According to The New York Times, the original terrorists were joined by “foreign mercenaries” who “speak German better than they do Albanian” and put on German army uniforms after quitting jobs in Europe, primarily Germany and Switzerland, to fly to Kosovo in planes full of recruits.
The Washington Post added that all of the KLA’s funding comes from abroad, primarily the United States, and that the US KLA support group has raised over $4 million, helped greatly by its US public relations firm, Ruder Finn, which has a long history as a propagandist for CIA dirty wars.
Liberation was not the KLA’s goal; the leadership made no secret of its desire for ethnic purification, finishing what the Nazi invasion began during World War II.
And finally, the title of Army seems a bit of a self-glorifying exaggeration for a group that assassinated civilians, ran away when another army came to fight in favor of letting its NATO air force handle the war, and only returned when the Yugoslav army had left.
The KLA’s official beginning came in 1996, when the group proudly announced responsibility for a massacre of refugees. But the real roots of the KLA, and the war in Kosovo, are the macroeconomic policies and institutions of imperialism. An article in Polyconomics, run by a former Wall Street Journal editor, found in a report that “ordinary people turned into ethnic monsters only after all their options for a normal economic life were destroyed. “Ethnic cleansing” arrived only after “shock therapy” had done its work.” Canadian author Michel Chussodovsky explained in greater detail:
“The break-up of the Yugoslav federation bears a direct relationship to the program of macro-economic restructuring imposed on the Belgrade government by its external creditors. This program, adopted in several stages since 1980, contributed to triggering the collapse of the national economy, leading to the disintegration of the industrial sector and the piecemeal dismantling of the welfare state. Secessionist tendencies, feeding on social and ethnic divisions, gained impetus precisely during a period of brutal impoverishment of the Yugoslav population.”
It would be absurd to credit the KLA with any positive political leanings; KLA leader Jakup Krasniqi conceded, “I do not think we have an ideology. We do not have time for such things.” Nevertheless, both the leadership and the rank and file have an agenda that they sought to promote through war and to which they remain committed. The ultimate goal was to create an ethnically pure state where all other ethnicities would be driven out or killed, to finish the effort that began a half-century before through the collaboration of the Nazis and the KLA soldiers’ “fathers and grandfathers [who] fought with fascist Italy against the Serbs during World War II.” (NYT) An article in Foreign Affairs described the current movement:
“[It is] led by sons and grandsons of the rightist Albanian fighters either the heirs of those who fought in the World War II fascist militias and the Skanderbeg volunteer SS division raised by the Nazis, or the descendents of the rightist Albanian kacak rebels who rose up against the Serbs 80 years ago.
The decision by the KLA commanders to dress their police in black fatigues and order their fighters to salute with a clenched fist to the forehead has led many to worry about these fascist antecedents. Following such criticism, the salute has been changed to the traditional open-palm salute common in the U.S. Army.”
It should be noted that the US worried not that the KLA was a fascist organization, but that it would become evident that it was a fascist organization. With the clothing and salute abandoned, the KLA no longer appeared fascist on the outside; it is, however, still very much a fascist force on the inside.
Another cause for concern in the imperialist network was the connection between the KLA and criminal syndicates in Albania, Turkey and the EU, particularly with respect to the KLA’s heavy involvement in the heroin trade.</a>
However, this raised alarm primarily in Europe, where the issue was widely publicized, and did not disturb the CIA, which has long encouraged the drug trade as a source of revenue for its dirty wars.
Hashim Thaci, the head of the KLA, is a favorite of Madeleine Albright, James Rubin, and the rest of the imperialist establishment.
It is easy to see why: he murdered rival leaders in the KLA and Albanian nationalist movements and killed, arrested, or purged anyone who appeared hostile, according to The New York Times. As an Albanian nationalist aligned with Ibrahim Rugova noted, “cadavers have never been an obstacle to Thaci’s career.”
Very similar to many other past and present agents of imperialism, he is a ruthless military leader who made the KLA powerful by “threaten[ing] to kill villagers and burn their homes if they did not join the KLA,” according to the US State Department, which encouraged Americans to send him money.
To accomplish their goals, Thaci and the KLA began with assassinations and bombings that were intended to increase repression by Belgrade. “Any armed action we undertook would bring retaliation against civilians,” Thaci explained. “We knew we were endangering a great number of civilian lives.” But, as Dug Gorani, a non-KLA Kosovo Albanian negotiator said, “The more civilians were killed, the chances of international intervention became bigger, and the KLA of course realized that. There was this foreign diplomat who once told me, ‘Look, unless you pass the quota of five thousand deaths you’ll never have anybody permanently present in Kosovo from foreign diplomacy.’”
When attempts to create real carnage failed, the US ambassador announced a massacre in the village of Racak that served as the pretext for the war. Later, reports in two of France’s largest newspapers and video from Associated Press TV journalists found major holes in the story, leading to the conclusion that the KLA faked the massacre by redressing and accumulating its own dead.
Working closely with the KLA throughout this entire period were the imperialist powers, notably the United States. Immediately before the war began, Robert Gelbard, the senior US envoy to the Balkans, called the KLA a terrorist organization.
The State Department naturally labeled the KLA a terrorist organization, too, but then suddenly changed its mind so that people could send money to the group. It was still a terrorist organization, only now it was a US-supported terrorist organization.
A long list of agencies from the US and Europe aided the KLA. Jane’s Defense Weekly, reporting “special forces involvement confirmed,” said that units from Britain, France, the US, and other NATO countries were working undercover in Kosovo. The London Telegraph reported that the KLA was working with the US paramilitary mercenary company, MPRI, and that the British special forces unit, SAS, ran KLA training camps in Albania, from which KLA soldiers entered Kosovo.
The French press agency, AFP, reported that three French army officers died while commanding the KLA. PBS “Newshour” reported that US veterans were training KLA soldiers. The Sunday Times wrote that the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe gave the KLA equipment to communicate with NATO. The paper also interviewed multiple sources working for the CIA who admitted to training KLA soldiers and “giving covert assistance to the KLA.”
Most important of all in supporting the KLA was probably the collaborative effort of the CIA and the German Bundes Nachrichten Dienst, which together supplied funding, German uniforms, East German weapons, other equipment, and training to the KLA. The entire imperialist network was thus at war with Yugoslavia long before the official fighting began.
It has been shown, using exclusively pro-US sources, that the imperialist countries played a central role in creating, training, and arming the KLA, a band of proudly fascist terrorists.
The more interesting and significantly more important question of why imperialism allied itself with the fascist terrorists and concocted the war against Yugoslavia is a subject for another essay, but an uncharacteristically insightful explanation was provided by President Clinton:
“If we’re going to have a strong economic relationship that includes our ability to sell around the world, Europe has got to be a key …That’s what this Kosovo thing is all about.”
Comment by JoshR — February 20, 2008 @ 4:26 pm
Bakababe,
Contrary to what you thought, I do see some parallels, between the Israel-Palestinian conflict/war and Serbia and the Muslims of Kosovo. I have previously in other posts in other contexts, made the same point myself.
I generally agree with your take on things in your comment #69.
There are a number of significant differences between the history leading up to and surrounding the Israel-Palestinian conflict/war and the Serb/Muslim-Kosovo conflict, but I will leave those differences for another post.
One parallel in particular that is as troubling to Israel as it is to Serbia, is the grave concern that the big Western powers have the ability to dictate solutions to both that is not nearly as much in their interests, as those solutions are in the interests of the Western powers.
What is worth noting however is that while there is prevailing support amongst Western nations for recognizing an independent state of Kosovo, there are some nations, such as Greece and Turkey who are against such recognition. Their reasons, like the reasons the Russians advance have nothing to do with recognizing any parallel between Israel and Serbia.
Further, whether one believes the Serbs are the innocents or the villains in the Balkan wars of the 1990’s, as I earlier pointed out, that was then and this is now.
Now and over the last 5 - 10 years, it has become increasingly clear that the Muslims of the Kosovo region and not just the KLA have become more radicalized. As such, they have engaged in Jihadist terrorist activities in and outside their area which have been directed against the West. They thus pose a real threat to the West.
Add to that, it is clear from reports that an independent state of Kosovo will be anything but democratic, but will be more likely then not, trampling or denying human rights, especially those of non-Muslims. The destruction by the Muslims of the area of 100’s of Serbian churches is something that should not have gone unnoticed by America and the EU, but it apparently has.
As I mentioned earlier, given what has transpired over just the recent last number of years, even if the Muslims were the innocents and the Serbs the villains in the Balkan war of the 1990’s, the Muslims in Kosovo are no longer the innocents.
So why does the West persist in supporting the Muslims of Kosovo to realize their self determination in their own break away state from Serbia against Serbian protests? Why does the West persist in pushing Israel towards an independent Palestinian state solution, even though almost every effort to that end is being frustrated by the Palestinians?
The answer most give has to do with Western appeasement of the wishes of the Arab oil powers that have no love of Jews and Israel and thus to protect their own interests, the West courts Muslim favor by pushing Israel towards what many have characterized as the peace of the grave. Some offer the same reason for why the West pushes for an independent state of Kosovo, knowing that they are rewarding a society that has engaged in various acts that should be of great concern to the West and a society that bears the West no good will.
Incidentally, it was reported about a year or so ago that Pres. Sharon did make a statement the nature of which I don’t recall, that did come out in favor of the Serbs, but he was quickly muzzled by America.
The point I earlier made that I could not see Israel coming out against an independent state of Kosovo, if only because it did not want to take a position against America in that regard, still seems to be a fair conclusion from what we all are witnessing.
Comment by Bill Narvey — February 20, 2008 @ 4:44 pm
Due to timing, we talked a lot about Kosovo here. But it seems like a better idea to continue this discussion on the Kosovo article that Ted published here
As I said on the other post, I know that it sounds crazy but I do believe that the Nazis are back, but they have morphed into ME Jihadists and EU Socialists. If that’s the case then this isn’t just about “appeasing the Arab world”, it’s bigger than that.
Comment by Bokababe — February 20, 2008 @ 5:04 pm
Infidel Warrior,
In calling for me to support my contrary views, you still are ignoring my point with Enigmax which was not to argue the merits of his points, but that he made those points against things I did not say or imply, but which he nonetheless attributed to me.
If you want to debate some specific statement I made, please let me know what it is, what your position is in that regard and I will provide you with an answer that is responsive to your point.
Comment by Bill Narvey — February 20, 2008 @ 5:09 pm
Yamit, I saved yours for last because your comment was the longest.
First off, I know the phrase radical Islam rankles you, but as I have told you before, I use it only as a convenient shorthand label. It is more complex then that I know and I may even agree with all that you have in mind, but then again I am not sure of all you have in mind in that regard.
Secondly, the points you make as regards the Serbs and the Albanians of Kosovo lead to your concluding point:
I would disagree with you to this extent.
The West need not consider whether it should take Serbia’s side or not.
The West should be taking its own side. The West should be asking itself, why should it support an independent Muslim state of Kosovo, when the Muslims there will not have a democratic and pro-Western state, but rather a state that is anti-West and where a number of its citizens have in past and will continue to join Jihadists in terrorist attacks either directly or indirectly on Westerners and Western interests?
To put it more simply, why is the West supporting and rewarding a society that acts towards it like an enemy rather then a friend?
The answers lie I am quite certain, not in morality and justice, but in how the West defines its self interest and how it sees its interests can best be served.
There are as we both have noted, some cracks forming in the American and EU support for an independent Kosovo. We will have to wait and see whether those cracks are smoothed over or are widened into a gap too wide to bridge.
Comment by Bill Narvey — February 20, 2008 @ 5:33 pm
March for the Serbs!
- White House protest, February 24, 1:00 PM
- Toronto February 23
- Vancouver February 24
- Phoenix: February 23, 5:30pm, Wesley Bolin Plaza, details
- KosovoIsSerbia.org
- Petition to Senate: Keep Serbia United! Sign
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/petition/905791187
Comment by Jo.S — February 20, 2008 @ 6:48 pm
http://www.serbianna.com/news/2008/01406.shtml“The Islamic umma (nation) wishes the people of Kosovo and its government success in their new struggle to build a strong and prosperous country,” the Islamic bloc said in a statement issued from its headquarters in the Saudi city of Jeddah.”
The US and the Brits have recognised Kosova. But in the UK the majority were against the Balkan war with a clear majority supporting the Serbs, their WW II allies. The lies/propaganda used to sell that war is coming unstuck at the seems, similar questions related to Iraq are being demanded about the war against the Serbs. The Brit’s want to know why they are being used to fight Christians in the Balkans, whilst Muslim terrorists were being trained and armed to kill those same Christian Serbs? Lots of related names are coming up, same guys who lied (dodgy dossier) regarding Iraq. More Americans than ever openly questioning Jewish elites and loyalties. Neo Conservatism is Jew-centric, these guys are responsible for both wars. That isn’t opinion, that’s fact. things are starting to get bumpy and heads are getting buried in the sand. We need to do the right and honourable thing and be seen to be doing it, We need conservative voices, strong voices, honest voices - where the hell are they?
Precipice to WW III: http://www.serbianna.com/news/2008/01444.shtmlChina’s U.N. Ambassador Wang Guangya said Monday that Beijing was “gravely concerned” over Kosovo’s declaration of independence, saying it “opposes unilateral action and objects to imposed solutions by pressure.”
Israel is more vulnerable today than she ever has been in 60 years, more Americans than ever are lashing out at US support. This is NOT because of the Palestinians so called suffering, it’s because of their own and the contempt shown to them by government. You can’t fool all of the people all of the time, all I’m hearing is “wars for Israel” and “Neo Con destabilizing of Western interest” This is not sideline stuff anymore. We need to get out there, standing by the Armenians, not lobbying against them “in our own interests” that is not in our interests. We need to stand with the Serbs, they stood by us for heavens sake and now we betray them? Are we a people or not? We have to pick a side, fight with them because when the tide turns, and it’s turning, if we decide then we’re on side, the nations against Islam will see us as no more than the other problamatic untrustworthy semites. The ones who start wars, don’t want to fight them.
I am for fighting, I am with the Serbs. I am for Israel, no more land, no more surrender to terror. This weakkneed bullshit has to stop right here or we are finished, and we’ll deserve it!
Oh, and the massacre that never was, but hey it’s on wikipedia - So is Jenin! Grow up, smell the coffee. It’s called propaganda. They found 2000 bodies (not 8000) this was after the fighting, most of the bodies were fighters/soldiers. It is called war! they suppressed reports of massacres of the Serbians, the rapes, the beheadings, the Serbs burned alive. It’s coming out, all over Europe they are challenging the “official version” so I suggest those who put their name to this terrible injustice, back track and do it real fast.
Comment by Jo.S — February 20, 2008 @ 7:35 pm
The West as you call it is not a monolithic entity and should never be used in this context as such. For years the EU stood by and did nothing with regard to the fighting in the Balkans. It was the US who Pushed them into any unified action and then it was peripheral in nature with America Taking the lead in all areas. Here the Brave(sic) Europeans who couldn’t fight their way out of a diaper signed on really against their National wills, because Nato was at stake without that mission Nato would have closed up shop.
You are a biggy along with Ted and others on International Law! well in another world all the NATO countries and their leaders should have been tried for war crimes . They attacked with no provocation to themselves a sovereign nation, a legal member of the UN and in opposition to at least half the world bodies constituent member states. Even in this it was almost an all American show as the Europeans mainly played fig leaf for American aggression. In this Clinton and America are essentially if not in fact War criminals under the very laws and norms they accused Serbia of violating. Here was a classic case of might makes right.
That A. Sharon recognized this potential for its application in Israels conflict with the Palis was to his credit. He may have been shut up by the exigencies of our relationship with America but that does not lessen the potential in our conflict for similar American and Nato reaction in the future. It will never happen though as Either our leaders will cave under pressure or if we stand fast against America they will back down.
Sunday’s unilateral declaration of independence from Serbia by Kosovo is likely to have serious consequences, not only in the Balkans, but around the world.
Serbia called the declaration illegal and Russia denounced it. The United States, however, was among the first to recognize Kosovo as an independent nation, complicating a growing breach with Russia, China and some EU members, who are vehemently opposed to letting Kosovo break away from Serbia.
Minimally, this event threatens to touch off a new conflict in the Balkans. Riots have already broken out in Belgrade. According to our source in Belgrade, “Serbia is about to go up in flames” as thousands of ethnic Albanians, Muslims who represent 90% of Kosovo’s two million people, have stated their claim on the new state. According to our source, a systematic ethnic cleansing of Kosovo’s remaining Christian inhabitants has been going on for several years and will now likely escalate.
Since we have been supporting ‘democracy’ in Kosovo, and have ignored the strong Albanian Islamic influence in political affairs there, we have opened the gates to a new Islamic state, complete with terrorist training camps on the ground and a global network through which to funnel their graduates.
This begins a trail that leads to (but does not end in) New York City, where the ‘Albanian Mafia’ has taken over much of the drug and organized crime trade. The combination of the legitimization of their terrorist activities in Kosovo, their links to the US, and the fall of Serbia (partly self-inflicted) may spell a new era of unrest and confusion that will mean danger for US interests everywhere.
To illustrate the ripple effect that has already begun to appear, Yasser Abed Rabbo, a senior aide to Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas, said today, “Kosovo is not better than us. We deserve independence even before Kosovo, and we ask for the backing of the United States and the European Union for our independence.” He supported the position that Palestinians should unilaterally declare their own independence.
Kosovo’s move has opened a Pandora’s Box that is likely to release forces that will spin out of control very rapidly. Separatist movements in many parts of the world can take heart from Kosovo’s move and sow the seeds of chaos in a world that is already reeling from the effects of Islamic terror.
Comment by yamit82 — February 20, 2008 @ 7:40 pm
What a strange world. Jo.S is calling for a new world order based on honesty and fighting for what is right. He is also suggesting the idea that Israel and other western nations be “a light unto other nations”. How strange. Oddly enough, it is because they try to follow those principles that I am a diehard Canadian Conservative.
Comment by Jonathan — February 20, 2008 @ 7:54 pm
Bokobabe (75): Socialism isn’t limited to just ME Jihadists and EU Socialists. Name a country in the west that does not have Socialists (aka globalists) at the helm, even if they pretend to be Democracies. The US, UK and Germany approved the Kosovo cessation. You are like who you side with. They sided with Muslims against Christians just like they side with Muslims against Jews, therefore they are Nazis as you said.
Comment by Teshuvah — February 20, 2008 @ 7:59 pm
jo .s
The ans, jo boy is that 3 years ago your guy Bush deposed them they are long gone you dope!! So all the Neo cons responsible for the war were Jew centric neo cons? NAME THEM!!!( you antisemitic bastard)
Comment by yamit82 — February 20, 2008 @ 8:03 pm
Hey, Yamit try READING and COMPREHENDING what is written :Neo Conservatism is Jew-centric, (”centric” google straus, ya think the opposition doesn’t. read the goddamn net/ news once in a while) “these guys are responsible for both wars.” Rumpy and Cheney are NOT Jewish, neither is Clinton (the Balkans) “N’ Conservatives IS Jew-centric” this being the underlay of current accusations?? Do ya see, and I AM A JEW, you ass hole. A Jew for ONE STATE, not suicide. A Jew for decency and truth, not propaganda. A Jew for making a stand, not bending over and taking it from the Arabs. I don’t want to to business with them, negotiate with them because I know that they will never keep their word. Condi Rice (another NeoCon) can stick Annapolis and going back to Europe, I am pro Serb, not the quisling Bosnian Muslims who my Grandfather was fighting IN PALESTINE where the mufti WHO WAS AN ANTI SEMITIC BASTARD imported them. Bosnian Muslims are Turks, left over from the Ottoman empire. But wait, Erdogen is Israel’s allie?? Is he, Yamit? I seem to recall his “let the mosques be our barracks” schpiel.
Comment by Jo.S — February 20, 2008 @ 8:39 pm
Teshuvah,
All I am saying is that the Nazis were German “National Socialists”, they have morphed into “International Socialists” with the same Islamic allies as they had during WWII.
BB
Comment by Bokababe — February 20, 2008 @ 10:50 pm
Albanian Islamofascist terrorist group, the KLA (”UCK” in Albanian) who are backed by the US and EU…cut off Kosovo Serbs’ heads while smiling for the cameras!
See the brutally graphic photos here
The article in English is here
KLA Islamofascist terrorist group massacres Serbs in Gracko,Kosovo.Full story with graphic photos.
click here
Videos of Bosnian and Arab Islamofascists
mutilating and beheading Serbs in Bosnia.
Check out the Arab Mujahadeen guy on the right(3rd row down) holding the camera with the psychotic grin on his face.
WARNING: Brutally graphic content follows!!
click here
Srebrenica slaughter of Serbs: Bosnian Islamist-Jihadist beheading atrocity videos and accompanying articles.
Warning: very graphic
Click here.
“Istina” (Truth)
(Serbian with English subtitles)
Video produced by the Serbian Radical Party detailing crimes against Serbs in Bosnia, Croatia, and Kosovo.
WARNING: This video contains graphic scenes of violence and torture. Discretion is strongly advised..
click here
Comment by JoshR — February 21, 2008 @ 1:30 am
Jo.S ; Tnaks for your comments, I would like to clear a few things you said up before I ans. you in more depth!
1- I do read net news and main st as well!
2- without google, centric relates to middle or center Jew centric would then correspondingly mean Jews are at the center or core add neo and according to you Jews are at the center, core of N, cons: You did not preface this statement by saying so and so say or that is popular conception by anyone? therefor as you stated this was and as Far as I can make out still is your personal opinion.
3- Ask any leading Neo Con Jewish or otherwise and all will tell you that Bush only partially implemented their policies. Sort of like a woman being half pregnant.
4- without going into my personal opinion of Neo Cons, there are Jews and Gentiles among leaders considered N. CON, just like there are Jews at the center of N.Con opposition. Why should I or anyone else be concerned or care what or which ethnic individual or individuals are at center or core of political philosophy called Neo Conservatism? Liberal Humanism? or any other Ism?
5- the singling out of Jews as leaders of Neo Cons is at its base a form of antisemitism and this is so if you are Jewish or not. The worst anti semites have always been Jews themselves!
6- It is my understanding the such decisions of war and peace are prerogatives of the President alone.
Remember HS TRUMAN< the buck stops here?</strong
I asked you to name Jewish neo cons and you give me non Jewish neo cons fine but where are the Jews? Stereotyping is also a form of antisemitism! Clinton who went to war against the Serbs cannot be considered to have been under the influence of Neo Cons the reverse case can be made!
You say that today Israel is more vulnerable than at anytime in past 60 years? I don’t think you are up on Israeli History if you can make a statement like that , certainly in 1947 when 5 Arab armies attacked, certainly the threat before we attacked in 67 was far mare immediate and dangerous, or the war in 73 when we were a hairs width of being overrun.
Even with all the anti Israel Jabbering around the World they are still coming here in spite of all and investing Billions in our economy. Intel Just announced they will build a second plant in Jerusalem costing over a billion dollars. In short our economy in spite of all our enemies is currently booming.
I support anyone who first supports me and or I deem in our Jewish and Israeli national interest. You say you are a Jew for decency and truth, Glad to hear that but it is so general it needs defining as one mans truth is another’s propaganda and lies. Decency is a cultural norm which will differ from culture to culture, country.If we were to deny having relations with every country who treated Jews or others abominably, we would maybe be left with Micronesia! Turkey and Israel have good relations and they buy much from our Mil ind. , what Turks did to Kurds, Armenians and others is a concern but not a primary one otherwise we would have no trading partners anywhere in the world including America!
If you are really a Jew then your kung ho statements would have a more sincere ring to them if you were here among us than in some safe domain in the Diaspora. If your concern is so great for our well being than your place is here and you can put your spoken wishes into a more positive context!
Comment by yamit82 — February 21, 2008 @ 6:15 am
Bokababe (#85): I agree entirely. They have been flying under false colours and are just starting to reveal their true nature.
I read your sentence which began with “All I am saying”. That reminded me of the song “All I am saying is give peace a chance,” a propaganda piece to deceive people into think peace and appeasement really work when it doesn’t.
Cheers
Comment by Teshuvah — February 21, 2008 @ 6:26 am
Yamit, 99% of signiatures on the PNAC documents which many concnerned Americans (and others) are pushing in our faces are signed by American Jews. Take a look, you know the papers i’m referring to. Iraq never was a war in US interests, it was ill thought out probably because the military and intel were sidelined. Ignored because they weren’t onside. They predicted mayhem, why Bush Snr stopped at Baghdad in 91. When something goes very wrong, people look for others to take responsibility. No one wants to take the heat.
I do not see the world through a prism “what is good for the Jews” I see it through the litmus of, what is good for my neighbours. I don’t wonder too much if they’re Jewish, no country can survive group politics and keeps it’s cohesion. It’s cold out there, on the outside looking in.
I tend to contribute quickly, I sure could be more clear and I will take that on board.
You ask me if I am “a real Jew” or round abouts, I am as you say, in disapora, in my opinion, it is here the mistakes have been made for which Israel suffers.
I don’t write critics off as anti semitic because they dont’ much like groups such as AIPAC, I don’t much like the direction they take either. Or when Abe Foxman said, to be anti American is to be anti semitic. America is not Jewish, but many Jews are proud Americans, that’s what he failed to respect, there is no exact symmatry between Israel and the US, he thought others wouldn’t notice. They notice when liberties are taken. All those folk smeared as anti semite because they came out against the 203 Iraq invasion, good people like Gen Zinni. They have long memories, they never did more than speak for their own countries interests, that didn’t make them anti semites, it made them patriots. Pity the fool who calls that anti semitism, then stand back and wait because there will be a reaction.
Tough choices are ahead, enemies have been made out of friends, whilst enemies have near enough been the keys to the kingdom. I didn’t mean to sound bellicose. Boker Tov.
Comment by Jo.S — February 21, 2008 @ 8:01 am
Yamit
You are very vocal on this thread and more power to you in that regard. But I am involved in building a Trotskyist website and developing a revolutionary Trotskyist cadre leadership which places on its banner the unity of Serb and Jew.
I am not so vocal here but understand that this thread began on our Trotskyist website.
We work in a United Front with Jews and Serbs but there is no question about our organizational and theoretical independence.
As I said before there is no basis for our arguing about anything really if you do not accept that Fascism is a modern phenomenon, which is of our time, and which is interconnected with a capitalist system which is in mortal crisis.
Leon Trotsky spent much of the last 15 years of his life studying this phenomenon, especially in Italy and in Germany. he is the only authority on the subject that I trust.
There was of course repression and state repression in the past but Fascism is a very precise term applied to a very precise historical phenomenon.
This is related to the article at the top, and the visual evidence of Fascism. Without a proper definition of the term it is impossible to fight it successfully.
Comment by Felix Quigley — February 21, 2008 @ 8:02 am
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Hello to all.
I just don’t know how to say this, so I’ll begin with introduction.
I am Serb from Serbia, living in Serbia. I’ve been reading some other forum where ink to this site was posted , got curious, read a few posts and than I have been astonished.
Being read all posts here. allow me to say something I feel I am obliged to say.
THANK YOU!
In these days when we are all demonized, I feel hope when I read your posts - hope that someone somewhere is willing to hear other version than one on the CNN.
I’m not here to take stand or to try to persuade any of you that you should take Serbs side,not because I have doubt about that , but for the reason I believe that everyone is entitled to it’s own opinion.
I’m here to thank you for pure debating about this misery that got upon us. Like David in front of Goliath, we are standing against, NATO, EU, muslim countries. And they all say to us that it is for our good to forget Kosovo.
Just let me try to picture this in this way:
Imagine that tomorrow, next month, next year - Muslims, NATO, US come to you and say to you:
“Jerusalem is muslim’s town, all temples will be destroyed, we will have soldiers urinate on your Wailing Wall”.
“but” they would say, ” it is for your good, you must be part of new order, you must get rid of your history, you must forget who you are and who your ancestors were. After all, it’s your fault, we have right to take Jerusalem from you and we will do it”
“Our fault? What is our fault?”
“Well, you are JEWS! Isn’t it enough?”
This is fictional, of course, I hope that it will never happen.
But, Kosovo is our Jerusalem. It is our Holly Ground. Holly Land.
And now it is taken from us.
Just because we are Serbs. We are guilty for being Serbs. Not muslims.
Alone.
I really thought that we are alone, that no one knows about us, no one cares.
Tonight, after I’ve read your posts, I feel a little bit safer - If we disappear in years that are to come, at least, memory of us and our holly land will continue to exist.
Thank you for your thoughts.
Aleksandar
Comment by Aleksandar — February 22, 2008 @ 7:22 pm
Aleksandar: Thank you for your post. What the globalists and Muslims plan for your country, they also plan for the rest of the world. If people do not stand for you now and for Israel when you call out to G-d, then G-d will not hear their cries when they are in a similar position and they will be. Surely the Fourth Beast of Daniel is ravaging the earth.
You may feel alone and by looking at the media think you are alone, but be not moved by what you see for THE LORD hears the cries of the righteous, therefore you are not alone. Be comforted, He is with you.
Isa 26:3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.
4 Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength:
Ps 41:11 By this I know that thou favourest me, because mine enemy doth not triumph over me.
12 And as for me, thou upholdest me in mine integrity, and settest me before thy face for ever.
13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
Dwell in Psalm 37 and Psalm 91.
Also see this link:
Israpundit » Blog Archive » Bush Adminstration Unites with Al Qaeda in Kosovo
Teshuvah, C.Z.
Comment by Teshuvah — February 22, 2008 @ 7:45 pm
G-d be with you, Aleksandar, and the Serbian people.
Ted Belman - we have to do more than pray for these people. ?What can we do - Can we link up and get some organisation going? I know several influential hasbara oporatives, you must know even more. Can you get a letter readied and sent out to the lists, to get get our people to work on this, bombard the media with our letters/emails for starters. Any ideas?
Comment by Jo.S — February 22, 2008 @ 7:52 pm
Teshuvah , thank you a lot for your kind words.
I know what you say, and it makes me even sadder.
If it only was about us, I would be happy - If the world would become heaven on earth if Serbs vanish, I would be first to take us to oblivium.
Alas!
I know that we are just pawns in bigger game, just a test in preparations to conquer the whole world.
However, it still hurts.
It hurts when you think that yours and mine people suffered most in holocaust (Jews and Slavs), and yet, one see that they’re not after us, but after our souls, our collective memory and roots.
This is from play our poet and bishop wrote in XIX century - regarding fight with muslims.
My people sleep a deep and lifeless sleep;
no parent’s hand to wipe away my tears.
Above my head the heaven is shut tight;
it does not hear my cries or my prayers.
The world has now become a hell for me,
people have turned into hellish spirits.
O my dark day! O my black destiny!
O my wretched Serbian nation snuffed out!
I have outlived many of your troubles,
yet I must fight against the worst of all!
(Actually, it’s from the play “Mountain wreath” by Petar Petrovic Njegos)
Thank you again, good people, you gave me some comfort.
I will never forget your kind words.
Aleksandar
Comment by Aleksandar — February 22, 2008 @ 8:14 pm
To Jo.S and other good people
thank you Jo.
Even your intention to help us is enough - I know that the Lord sees in your heart (not just yours, but in all of us), and that your wish is something beautiful and worth.
I’m not asking for help - I’ve come here to thank you for thinking of us, and now, when I see that you care, that you feel our pain - how can any one help more, than to share your sadness with you. Your pure feelings are the biggest help.
thank you again, thanks to all of you
Aleksandar
Comment by Aleksandar — February 22, 2008 @ 8:24 pm
Dear Aleksander,
I and many, many others on this Jewish-Israel site feel great empathy and sympathy for your plight and suffering.
Do not be discouraged, disheartened or feel sad, Aleksander. Be strong in your resistance to the forces of evil and fight for your cultural and spiritual birthright of Kosovo: your spiritual heartland and the cradle of Serbian civilization; your Jerusalem!
Read the beautiful, uplifting words of Teshuvah in comment #93 above, and know that the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is with you - if you obey Him and all of His Commandments in the Torah, pray continually and truly believe in Him, He will hear your cry for help in your hour of need!
Comment by InfidelWarrior — February 22, 2008 @ 9:00 pm
Aleksandar, our poeple are in touch all over the world - it’s called the Jewish telegraph:-) Already, I have just seen your post reproduced, the woman who sent it has about two thousand names on her list, this will go to another with a list and another
ad infinitum around the globe. I would like to say it was me who sent it to her, but it wasn’t - I didn’t have time. There are many advocates for Israel all over the world, your fight is our fight. Keep in touch with this site.
G-d bless you.
Comment by Jo.S — February 22, 2008 @ 9:24 pm
No one has forgotten you, not us & not God, Aleksander.
It is not coincidence that you are Job to those who truly understand his trials, because they endured them also — and continue to endure them.
It was not unnoticed that while a handful of people rioted yesterday, hundreds of thousands of Serbs ended the rally in Belgrade by singing Boze Pravda (God of Justice) and by going to church to pray.
It is not coincidence that you quote Vladika Rade, who was brother to my grandmother’s grandmother — and you found me here.
Protests in Support of Serbia are springing up all over the world among those of good conscience.
This is not the end, Aleksandar, this is only the beginning of people waking up to the great injustice which has been done. It is not easy to be an instrument of God’s revelation, but it is a great honor to be chosen for such a role. Pray and wear it like a mantle of honor and you will not feel its weight, only its Glory to Him who made us all.
I will pray for you, Aleks, and I will march for you and we will not ever forget you!
BB
Know that you are in our prayers, Aleks!
Comment by Bokababe — February 22, 2008 @ 9:56 pm
Watch this Jewish Task Force video on YouTube!!
It is entitled: New U.S. President Will Be Anti-Serb, So We Must Fight Back!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYxLJTpEquY
Comment by JoshR — February 25, 2008 @ 7:14 pm
Dear Ted,
the pro-Islamofascist/pro-Nazi liberal-leftist antisemitic assholes on YouTube have REMOVED the JTF video:
New U.S. President Will Be Anti-Serb, So We Must Fight Back!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYxLJTpEquY
Ted, please consider doing a post on Israpundit exposing this blatant Joesph Goebbels and Wikepedia style Nazi/Islamofascist censorship of the truth!!
Thanks a million,Ted.
warmest regards,
Joshua Rosenberg.
Comment by JoshR — February 26, 2008 @ 7:03 pm
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[...] The real Srebrenica Genocide [...]
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