The Jewish Left wants the US to pressure Israel
By Ted Belman
Following up on my article Liberal Jews support Obama in part because they blame the Jews too in which I pointed out that “progressive Jews” were naturally allies of Obama, I came upon this Prospect Magazine article by Gershom Gorenberg entitled A Liberal Jewish Lobby
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The power of the “Israel Lobby” in the US is hard to measure exactly. But its hawkish positions do conflict with the views, and interests, of most American Jews. So why isn’t there a more dovish lobby to counter it? One is, finally, about to be unveiled.
More on that is reported in Aim of ‘J-Street Project’ is to counteract AIPAC lobbying on Capitol Hill.
For a long time now the Jewish Left have been trying to break the “stranglehold” AIPAC has on the US Congress and Senate. And so have Carter, Mearsheimer and Walt.
The problem as Gershom Gorenberg sees it,
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Lobbyists can only bend foreign relations so far. America’s basic interests constrain its policy towards the middle east, yet those interests are neither self-evident nor consistent with one another. The problem was stated over 40 years ago by McGeorge Bundy, who was President Johnson’s national security adviser until 1966. When the six-day war broke out in June 1967, Bundy was called back to the White House. A month later, he wrote a nine-page “framework of policy” for US relations with the middle east.
The Bundy doctrine’s bottom line is that US interests contradict each other: the US is committed to Israel’s survival, but also to good relations with pro-western Arab states that would like America to tilt against Israel. The war showed that US influence is limited; Washington could not even “dissuade some of our best friends among the Arabs from joining in the gang-up” against Israel. Even when Washington disagrees with Israeli policy, Bundy says, it should provide enough arms for Israel to defend itself. For if Israel faced defeat, the US “would confront the… painful and unattractive choices” of whether to send its own troops into battle.
Forty years on, much of Bundy’s description remains valid. It is easier, even cheaper, for America to keep Israel strong than to defend it directly. But Washington must also accommodate Arab allies. The Bundy doctrine implies that getting Arabs and Israelis to agree a peace deal would resolve the contradictions in US policy—and would be the best guarantee of Israeli security. The question then becomes one of how much the US should lean towards providing for Israel’s immediate security needs, and how much it should be pushing Israel towards a peace agreement as a strategic solution.
The Jewish left favours pushing Israel harder in the interests of the US. They argue though it is in the interests of Israel.
AIPAC is not the slightest bit hawkish. It merely supports the policies of the Government of Israel and never goes against it. It is a convenient scapegoat for the Left. Otherwise the Jewish Left would have to convince the US to go against Israel.
[After sending this article out , I was told by a Jewish leader that I have it wrong. AIPAC is left leaning and often resists policies of a right-wing Israel Government. Even so they are accused of being linked to neocons and Likudniks.]
The Jewish Left know that it doesn’t have the democratic power to get Israel to support its policies so it looks to the US to exert its “influence”.
As far back as 2005 N.Y. Jewish leaders lobbied Rice on Gaza border deal
Following the meeting, the forum also sent her a policy paper in which it urged the U.S. to take “aggressive” action on three issues.
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“The three steps that should be implemented in tandem, rather than in sequence, are as follows: Unambiguous and effective efforts by the PA to control terror and prevent attacks on Israelis; an Israeli freeze on extending existing settlements, including roads and other associated infrastructure, and removal of unauthorized settlement outposts; and efforts to help grow the Palestinian economy so the Palestinian Authority can provide jobs and basic services for Palestinians. This effort would help strengthen the PA’s position among the various Palestinian factions, including Hamas.”
Sound familiar?
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Abraham Foxman, director of the Anti-Defamation League, said it was not uncommon for Jewish organizations to lobby the administration to exert pressure on Israel. Foxman himself opposes such activity, but said the IPF, Americans for Peace Now and sometimes the Reform Movement all engage in it.
Just prior to Annapolis, they offered Rice Constructive ideas for the November Conference
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The “guide” suggests that the administration be ready with its own bridging proposals for the substance of a November Declaration: “the Bush administration cannot remain on the sidelines for long.” Their “illustrative” proposals for a successful statement make sense and are based on the Ayalon-Nusseibah plan with a little Geneva Initiative thrown in. One novel piece of framing that the IPF guide proposes is what they call a ‘facilitating agreement’ that would also be produced for November and would sit along side the substantive declaration. This facilitating agreement seems to essentially be a new way to reintroduce Roadmap phase I issues, such as security, settlement freeze, outpost removal, closure and prisoner release. Indeed, the former officials do not mention the Roadmap - not even once - in their guide paper. I think they are right. One of the more useful outcomes in November would be to finally bury the farce known as the Roadmap.
More recently Haaretz Editor Asked US Secretary of State to “Rape” Israel
Obama and all his advisers (McPeak, Power, Brzezinski, and so on) believe that Mearsheimer and Walt are correct in believing that, but for the power of the Israel Lobby, the US would be free to tilt more in favour of the Arabs. They see that in the interests of the US and so does the Jewish Left.
When Obama says, as he did in Cleveland,
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“I think there is a strain within the pro-Israel community that says unless you adopt a unwavering pro-Likud approach to Israel that you’re anti-Israel and that can’t be the measure of our friendship with Israel.”,
he is saying he is siding with the Jewish Left who favour the Geneva Initiative put forward by the Jewish Left.
Who the fuck are these people to state how most American Jews feel? They DO NOT SPEAK FOR ME!
Comment by Laura — March 28, 2008 @ 5:57 pm
If only this were true. The mainstream pro-Israel organizations are hardly hawkish. They basically support whatever position a center-left government in Israel takes. So almost all Jewish organizations are proponents of the two-state solution, know nothing of the religious motivation and historical record of jihadist Islam and have no clue as to why only overwhelming Israeli military superiority will maintain relative calm between Israel and its enemies.
Even the supposedly hawkish, pro-Likud “neocons” falsely believe that the answer to what ails the Arabs is a lack of freedom, education and opportunity. Meanwhile liberal Jews have learned nothing from the failure of Oslo, believing dialogue, “painful sacrifices” and displays of Jewish/Israeli decency can bring about better relations between Israel and the Arab-Muslims in the West Bank and Gaza.
Both the American Jewish left and right are wrong. The Palestinians don’t want economic opportunity and responsible government if it means they have to give up their jihad (and accept the reality of Israel as a Jewish state) to get it. Their goal is to spread Islam until the whole world submits to sharia law. Israel simply cannot exist in the Islamic worldview. There is nothing Jews can do to change this. Peace agreements are worthless. Military superiority is the only way to keep Israel secure.
The “root cause” of the conflict is what Muslims believe as a result of the Koran, Hadith and Sira. Everything else is meaningless commentary.
Comment by 4infidels — March 29, 2008 @ 2:47 am
Clearly the lefty Jews saw a need: someone to lobby the world to put pressure on Israel. I guess they felt their help was needed by the State Department, United Nations, European Union, OIC, Arab League, mainline churches, University professors, the New York Times, CNN, most of the Democratic Party, the Israeli media and Israeli left, self-hating Jews throughout the world, many feminist, human rights and gay rights groups, anti-Globalization groups and everyone else with a camera, microphone, keyboard and an uniformed opinion. Add in the many anti-Semites and you get the feeling that somehow their point of view was already getting heard.
However, they can offer something that most other groups can’t. They can lobby US politicians to put pressure on Israel by claiming their organization is made up of pro-Israel Jews who are only concerned with the best interests of Israel. Of course, they will support their view just as anti-Zionists around the world do (except with more impact because they are supposedly pro-Israel Jews…by claiming that there are many Israelis who feel as they do and pointing out editorials in Haaretz that back their positions.
Worst of all, these self-serving showoffs–who care more about their “progressive” credentials as peace-advocates than they do about Jewish survival–have chosen to do this at a time when Israel is isolated and surrounded by dangerous and increasingly bellicose enemies.
Posing as a friend while doing the work of the enemy. Sound a little like treason, doesn’t it???
Comment by 4infidels — March 29, 2008 @ 3:13 am
Laura+4infidels and sundry others..
I BRING YOU BAD NEWS
The vast majority of North American Jews still regard themselves as liberals. Yes , liberals that hated word. Despite years of attempts, the far right super-nationalists have not succeeded in high-jacking Jewish institutions. Most Jews are very strongly pro-Israel and support Israeli causes.In times of crises Jews will do everything possible to aid Israel, financially, morally and in any other fashion.
However that does not mean that other than for a miniscule minority , an attitude of Israel Uber Alles is in effect. Kill tham all, nuke them to bits is not what I hear from most Jews.
And Laura, as you must know by now, I like you very much but really who gives a flying fuck what you feel?
Comment by h peskin — March 29, 2008 @ 11:16 am
It is a simple matter. The left supports the left and the right supports the right. The GoI is in the middle.
The left and the right both try and move it in their direction. Nothing wrong with that.
The only question is whether the left or the right are better for Israel or for the Jews. This is what we are debating.
Comment by Ted Belman — March 29, 2008 @ 11:31 am
email
And, I saw on one of the shows this morning that Condie” is on the short
list for vice-President.. G-d help us! On one side a Muslim and the other an
anti-Semite..! And, the liberal left here in LA will pay to put them in! I
truly can’t stand it!
Comment by Ted Belman — March 29, 2008 @ 11:38 am
Ted, as a self appointed recruiter for the position of the President of the U. S., where were you when the last successful candidate applied for the position?
You seemed to have dropped the ball then.
G.W. Bush’s C.V.
Personal traits.
An ex alcoholic, an ex drug addict.
Was regarded as a lose cannon for the first 25 years of his life.
Has one conviction for driving under the influence.
Was detained for possesion of an illegal substance.
Work experience
His only attempt at an independant business endeavor. A oil equipment company established by himsef ended in abject failure, yes bankruptcy.
Was a partner in a major league baseball team, largely administered by others.
Political experience: Undistinguished Governor of the state of Texas. Noted for approving the most death sentences in U. S. history.
Skills and talents;
Abysmal oral language skills, poor knowledge of othe nations and cultures. Has hardly travelled.
AND WE SEE THE RESULT- AND YOU ARE WORRIED ABOUT OBAMA.
Comment by h peskin — March 29, 2008 @ 12:02 pm
My point Mr. Peskin is that neither the Jewish right nor the Jewish left (nor the center) has useful answers because no side is willing to learn about Islam and understand the implications of what Muslims actually believe as it relates to the Arab-Israeli conflict.
The Jewish organizations like AIPAC and ADL reflect this moderate-liberal pro-Israel prospective. I believe they do more good than harm, but their effectiveness is limited by the fantasies and politics of their leaders and constituencies. The the new Jewish groups, hoping to provide a counterweight to AIPAC and ADL, are much farther to the left and basically are indistinguishable in their views from James Baker (yes I know he’s a Republican, it’s his Middle Eastern view I am talking about), Walt-Mersheimer, Samantha Power and Jimmy Carter.
In the end, the Arab-Israeli conflict doesn’t have a solution. It is a situation that can be managed by superior Israeli military strength which discourages its enemies from attacking it. Right now, Israel is hesitant to go after the terrorists and too eager to give away land to those who have no intention of honoring any agreements that they sign.
The Arabs see weakness in Israeli restraint and negotiations. Thus, they feel more assured that their victory over the Jews is near.
Comment by 4infidels — March 29, 2008 @ 12:09 pm
peskin I don’t give a flying fuck how you feel either. And I won’t apologize for wanting to kill my enemies. And I will say once again, these leftist Jewish appeasement minded organizations DO NOT SPEAK FOR ME AND MANY OTHERS!
Comment by Laura — March 29, 2008 @ 12:48 pm
Excellent, Ted. The problem, in a nut shell. And a formulation of a contradictory proposition as impossible to resolve as an irresistible force meeting an immovable object. Or so it at first appears.
The policies as cast by Bundy only appear contradictory. It can be framed that way as an insightful and profound dilemma. But there’s nothing here to convince me of this apparently agonizing quandary. America is not caught up in a situation that requires a choice between options that are or seem equally unfavorable or mutually exclusive or Middle East peace would have been achieved in 1967.
Bush has only two hands. He can walk hand-in-hand one time with Abdullah at Crawford or hand-in-hand with Israel [ I say "Israel" for want of a better name.] at another time, but with only two hands he still cannot bring American Policy to walk hand-in-hand with both at the same time to resolve The American Dilemma for American interests are at risk.
With American economic interests at risk — and, let’s be honest, it is only economic interests that count when speaking about a nation’s “vital” interests — Bush has no choice but to walk with Abdullah so Israel had better be planning to walk alone, and the sooner, the better. In fact, it my earnest desire that Israel bestow the greatest of benefits to America for all it has done to support Israel, and will receive in return America’s overwhelming gratitude, if it announces,”Thank you, America, but Israel can now go it alone.”.
My position is it is time for Israel to stand and finally secure it’s independence on it’s own terms. It need not fear Arab nations, indeed, the last thing the Arab nations want is a war with Israel. As for Islam, that’s a problem for the West to resolve.
So Bush as no choice with whom to walk–and if one has no choice, one does not face a dilemma. Q.E.D.
Martin Kessler
mdk4130@aol.com
Comment by mdk4130 — March 29, 2008 @ 1:46 pm
Thank you Martin Kessler for a very thoughtful, well written piece. But to think of Israeli independance in a pure sense is expecting the unattainable, as it is for most Nations in the world.
Let me cite you one small example. Israel at the present time is undergoing a very serious drought. Water shortages in the middle east is a chronic problem. With an expected influx of of additional people on the west bank, this problem can only get worse, in the next few decades. Water of course is essential for sustaining life. Much more important than oil or any other commodity.
Israel and Turkey have signed a long term contract (20 years) whereby Turkey will be supplying water products to Israel. This will by no means solve the problem but will at the very least reduce the shortage.
Naturally Turkey benefits monetarily by this arrangement. However keep in mind that the present Turkish Government is strongly Islamicist.Israel must always keep adjusting its policies to ensure that Turkey is not unduly offended by its actions. Turkey is essential to Israel. During the second Intifada Turkey temporarily recalled its Ambassador to protest the high Palestinian death rate.
There are numerous other examples where Israel has established a dependancy trade relationship with Moslem nations involving essential commodities.
Ask yourself the question, If America the superpower has discovered to its dismay that it cannot go it alone, how can Israel?
Comment by h peskin — March 29, 2008 @ 6:59 pm
Laura #9
I bring a peace proposal. Now that we have exchanged fucks, why don’t we just kiss and make up.
Comment by h peskin — March 29, 2008 @ 7:20 pm
I just received a phone call from a very important Jewish leader who advised me I wasn’t correct in saying that AIPAC always supports the GoI. I had been wondering about that myself.
He said they are a left wing organization that has its own agenda. They have never supported the settlements even when the GoI did as an example.
So now we have two lobby groups, one on the left and one to be, on the far left.
Comment by Ted Belman — March 29, 2008 @ 8:23 pm
Ted , when you are on the far, far, right even someone in the center seems to be on the left. Are you following me?
Comment by h peskin — March 29, 2008 @ 9:11 pm
Thank you, Mr. Peskin for taking the time to point out why Israel cannot “stand alone” contrary to my argument that it is time for Israel to serve its own interests, not the interests of other Nations.
With all respect, I do not know what you mean by “independence in a pure sense.” Are not all Nations independent, yet nevertheless are we not all of us connected by a “cash nexus” in which trade and exchange is always based not upon altruistic motivations but mutual comparative advantage and fundamental economic interests? So the point I was making was the relationship of Israel’s friendship with America is highly undependable. The reason I say this is what drives American interests is American economic policy, not Israel’s survival. In fact, on a list of American priorities, I do not expect to see Israel’s survival near the top; if it were at the top and universally well understood, then I will recant.
I am sure Israel is grateful for the military aid–which Israel pays for–as it does for Turkish water– by returning the economic annual support in the form of military purchases. There is nothing free about American aid–or Turkish water.
Now, in regard to the Turkish water, we know Turkey is said to be secular but within the Islamic fold. If Turkey were so adamant about the egregiously vile treatment inflicted on the Palestinians by Israel, as some claim, Turkey could have chosen to be “independent in the pure sense,” yet you observe, when it comes to “money,” Turkey — and many other Moslem nations — will “make a deal” with Israel notwithstanding the recall of Ambassadors or any other form of expressing displeasure. It seems Economic interests overrides “Independence in the pure sense.”
My point, then, is Israel must become independent of any entangling alliances because it is a mature state, because it is powerful and ought to be fearless, and, if nothing else, it is past time! It is already becoming a desirable player in the world economy. However, Israel may come to discover the longer it looks westward for support, with a presumption of assurance, support for survival may not be forthcoming, and, sad to say, even from American Jews who are basically not Jewish, “in the pure sense.” It is also time we recognize that in many ways American foreign policy depends on Israel’s formidable military power much more that what is commonly stated. No relationship, by definition, is one way and Israel needs to capitalize on that inverse relationship and turn it to its advantage–for survival, not security, is Israel’s only primary interest.
Comment by mdk4130 — March 29, 2008 @ 9:57 pm
HP takes comfort that he is with the majority. We take comfort that we are in the right.
Comment by Ted Belman — March 29, 2008 @ 10:04 pm
Hello Ted,
This is my turn to rant & rave,with both barrels loaded & primed.
First these attacks on Aipac,which once we get past the shallow & superficial slogans,are baseless & not true.If we delve into history we can equally ask whether Lincoln was overly influenced by Afro-American needs when the Union gov’t made war on the Confedrate states? (& lost hundreds of thousands of soldiers freeing the slaves).Was Woodrow Wilson Overly concerned with British interests when he sent American troops to fight & die for the greater glory of the British Empire in it’s colonial war with Germany? WW2 probably would not have occurred if the outcome of WW1 had been different,was all of this the product of the secret British Lobby? Maybe it was a matter of French or even Soviet connivance,that is what Ford & Lindbergh claimed!Was there an underground Korean
organization twisting Harry Truman’s arm to send Americans to South Korea in 1950,how about the Chinese Nationalists
who retreated to Taiwan in 1949,was America tricked into helping them?For what it is worth,what about Arab oil money? Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia once commented that he had bought a lot of friends in the State Dep’t over a period of time;friends he could count on to help in Saudi Arabia’s war against the Jews.The universities are awash with Arab loot,as are many of the professors;pompous sophists who will lie for anyone if the price is right.We must not forget that former oil executive (Chevron?),Condoleezza Rice who now takes care of business for F the Jews James Baker who in turn works for Saudi Arabia.Good old secretary Rice,she leaves no stone unturned in kicking Israel around,which makes Baker happy because it makes his client Saudi Arabia happy!Lest we forget,there is the Peanut Man,Jimmy Carter,Who is a partially owned mouthpiece for the Arab oil sheiks.Carter has collected millions of dollars from the Arabs for services rendered in their war against Israel.So if someone claims that Israel has great influence over Washington,so do other close allies who America has helped in the past.
Incidentally,Americans have died fighting for Afro/Americans,for Britain,France,Russia,Kuwait,Iraq,China,Korea & others.To the best of my knowledge,no American soldier has ever died fighting for Israel!
As for Barack Osama,I think he will go down in defeat in November,defeated by his own double talk!By identifying totally with Afro/America he has succeeded in turning off almost everyone else, many Clinton supporters,being as big a bunch of doctrinaire jerks as their opposite numbers in the Obama camp,will not give their vote to Obama who they will be embittered toward.Hispanic votes will go to McCain because he is a war hero & Hispanic men tend to be macho & identify with patriotism & heroism;also they are social & economic rivals to black Americans & will feel that Obama’s black exclusivity will come at their expense.Another group are lower income white working class voters who tend to be more patriotic & who are offended by Obama’s left wing, anti American talk(we have to also count in many poor whites who would not vote for a black candidate regardless of what he said or did!For these reasons,along with others,I believe the Republicans will win big in the Presidential elections.
Now for the Jewish liberals,they are not liberals they are Bolsheviks lite;they also are not Jews,they are leftists with a Jewish background somewhere in their past.They are no more Jewish than the Hellenized/Romanized Jews in ancient Israel who felt contempt for Judaism(may I throw in the Reform German Jews from 100 years ago?).These left wing “Jews” are no more Jews than Julius & Ethel Rosenberg were.The Rosenbergs were hard core,card carrying Stalinist for many years,not just fellow travelers.They dutifully worked for the sociopathic monster through the years of purges which saw many Jews convicted & murdered in the show trials;they could not have cared less about the Jews who were killed,as long as Soviet purposes were advanced.
Today’s American Jewish leftists idealize people like the Rosenbergs,Che Guevara,Castro,the Hollywood Ten.They all are in the liberal Jews pantheon of heros(especially the Hollywood branch of the left cult.It seems that the further Jews climb in Gentile society,the more they take on the anti Semitism & political baggage of western elites they long to be associated with.In the modern secular west,where their grandparents escaped to from Europe,These secular Jews wanted to get away from Czars,Pogroms,Cossacks, & perhaps most all they wanted to escape from the Rabbis.In America they could chose,they could climb without being unduly resticted.What to do?They certainly did not want to become Christian(most of them ,anyway)& they did not want to live under the thumb of the Rabbis as Jews.These people had a problem,they wouldn’t be Jews or Christians,but everyone had to belong somewhere!With the advent of the Industrial Revolution & the v formulation of leftist philosophies,they found a 3rd way,they would become Humanists,they would become International social engineers.If the Christians worshipped the God of Christianity,& the Jews worshipped the God of Israel,these Jew hating Jews would worship the God of the proletariat,they would pray at the altar of Marx & Lenin.At this point it must be said that a great majority of leftist American Jews never went all the way to becoming hard core Communists,they stayed as fellow travelers of various shades of pink.These leftist cooked up their own hodge/podge theology in lieu of Judaism,in effect they became pagans,nature worshippers.Today they flit around to all of the rallys;Global warming,rock concerts for endangered cockroaches in Guatemala,the dispossessed natives of the Amazon jungle,poor abused Arabs in Gaza.They are sooo… good!They are for goodwill & peace & prosperity for everyone everywhere,except of course Jews & Israel for whom they can’t find a good word.
The Communists have gone & the cause of the worker is pass’e,so the left has found new victims to speak up for.The 3rd World peoples,& the Arabs in particular,are all the rage.Some observers have stated,with much merit,that the problem with many of these leftist American Jews is not political,it is psychiatric,they have a sickness of the mind & the soul,an inability to cope with reality.
The last point I would like to make is that much of the pain felt in Israel is self inflicted,they have a situation that in many ways resembles the situation we have here,with some notable differences.Much of the social & political structure is corrupt & inept,set up that way many years back by the Ashkenazi Labor Zionist elite who were interested in controlling society for their own benefit.As in all Socialist societies,corruption is a way of life (Israel may have right wing governments from time to time)but the national institutions were set up to be run by the left of center elite,in perpituity).It has reached a point where the system is being threatened by inept & thieving political hacks who are ,because of the way the government operates,largely unaccountable to the public.Bribes,graft,nepotism,philandering,cronyism & many other forms of corruption are commonplace.Some of Israel most powerful political figures are being investigated for possible criminal behavior.The courts are stacked with left wing judges,the police are,to some degree,politically motivated in their actions.Orthodox Zionists are in many cases discriminated against while the Arabs are appeased.It is little wonder that many Israeli Jews try to immigrate to other lands in order to get away from the inequities they see in Israel.AS in America,Israel also has it’s Jew hating leftists,they are known as the Tel Aviv crowd;fashionable post Zionist dandies who can find nothing worthwhile pertaining to the Jews & Israel,hearts bleeding for the poor,mistreated Arabs.
What especially galls me is not the behavior of the Arabs,I expect nothing better from them;it’s the people who are supposed to be on our side who cause my anger.Israel has a very strong case to present in rebuttal to Arab lies;there are many people around the world who would rally to Israel’s cause if the facts were presented to them in a forceful & objective way.Instead Israel seems to produce only bumbling/fumbling political time servers & coupon clippers,mealy mouthed mediocrities who can’t seem to do anything other than roll around in the dirt & apologise for anything & everything the Arabs throw at them.It seems that Bibi Netanyahu is the only one who can speak up without sounding as though he had marbles in his mouth & a cork up his rear end.Has Israel no one but tongue tied fools to act as spokesperson for the gov’t?
Well Ted, now that I have made my Spiel,I can leave the computer,take out the garbage,walk the dog & listen attentively to the constant harping of my wife
till we speak again,good night & stay well!
SID WEINER– retired
Comment by retired — March 29, 2008 @ 10:19 pm
I agree that Israel should consider going it alone or perhaps looking eastward for a new strategic alliance with perhaps Russia? Russia has more energy to export than the arabs. Would the Euros bee more keen on listening to their hegemonists in Saudi Arabia or their natural gas suppliers in Moscow. Russia is resurgent. Israel has many new immigrants from Russia, Russia’s allies, the Serb, are not fans of muslims or Kosovars ( I hope Israel has not recognized that Nato creation). Think of the implications of an Israeli-Russian military/economic alliance.
Comment by psybinaut — March 29, 2008 @ 11:14 pm
4infidels is right on.
I hear and agree with Laura as well.
Islam is the problem.
Israel is but one front - albeit a very important and emotional front - in the worldwide jihad.
There will never ever be peace between authentic, Muhammaden, pious Muslims and non-Muslims.
Peaceful Muslims are considered ‘hypocrites’ by their pious brethren and are, thus, regarded as infidels.
The farcical and evil charade of peace with Palestinian, Nazi savages must come to an end.
Only total and unequivocal victory by Israel over the Palestinians will suffice - Israel needs to annex Judea and Samaria and pacify Gaza.
Obviously, Israel is in dire need of leadership that has the will to act in Israel’s defense.
I also believe that Israel should make it known that she has the potential to negotiate arms deals with China and Russia.
It would be a blessing for Israel to wean off of U.S. loan guarantees and compete with the U.S. in the technology sector where now she is limited by a de facto ‘restrictive covenant.’
Comment by sanderzack — March 30, 2008 @ 2:32 am
Re Martin Kessler:
You wrote:
Thank you, Mr. Peskin for taking the time to point out why Israel cannot “stand alone” contrary to my argument that it is time for Israel to serve its own interests, not the interests of other Nations.
______________________________________
Now you are speaking in code. What exactly do you mean Israel ought to serve its own interests, not the interests of other Nations?
I hope that this does not come as a revelation to you, but Israel is not like other nations. Israel’s internal and external affairs effects the economic well being of almost every nation on this Globe.
Example: Yom kippur War 1973- Israel defeated its opponents. Saudi Arabia and other oil producers imposed an oil embargo on the west. Net result: The world ecomomy was shaken to its core. Inflation went through the roof and everyone suffered. Now this was at a time when the price of oil was at $ 6.00 a barrel.
Imagine a similar scenario today with oil at close to $100. a barrel.
Mr. Kessler, I can go on and on to show how Israel’s freedom is constrained by virtue of its numerous economic ties, diplomatic entanglements etc. etc. but why beat a dead horse. It is obvious to all those whose minds are not clouded by phantasies of glory and delusions of grandeur.
Perhaps Herzl was not all that wrong when he suggested Uganda as a site for a Jewish homeland. Personally, I’d vote for Paradise Island, Bahamas.
Comment by h peskin — March 30, 2008 @ 9:40 am
H Peskin:
you wrote “Perhaps Herzl was not all that wrong when he suggested Uganda as a site for a Jewish homeland. Personally, I’d vote for Paradise Island, Bahamas.”
What evidence do you have that the British would not have continued their same policy of elevating Jewhaters and future nazis had Israel been in Africa? And what evidence do you have that the State Department would not have taken over this same policy of supporting Jewhaters?
Even in 1920, there were plenty of powerful Arabs that welcomed the Zionists–but the British ensured that they did not win out. This is how ‘divide and conquer’ works, and this is why Jews have been told for 2000 years that we need to pick up and move. Very sad for a Jew to support this ‘oh, if we’d only picked up and moved!’ ideology. We have no control over the Jewhaters that are supported by countries far more powerful than Israel, nor do we have control over the media they use to whitewash these Jewhaters.
Had Israel been in Africa, left unfettered, black Africans would have converted to Judaism in droves (Judaism is infinitely less repressive than than the Islam of which many of them partake now). Israel probably would have expanded in an entirely peaceful manner to cover much of Africa. And the more powerful countries could never have this. I don’t believe anything would have turned out any differently. All the same lies told about ‘land stolen from palestinians’ would now be peddled as ‘land stolen from black Africans’. Instead of Arafat and Abbas, an African Jewhater would have been elevated into the exact same role.
Enough with the self blame. There are enough Jewhaters (I say this b/c the anti-Israel ’stance’ always boils down to ordinary old Jewhatred) that blame us already–why help them?
Comment by jrob — March 30, 2008 @ 4:33 pm
jrob
When I mentioned Uganda or Paradise Island as a site for the Jewish Homeland, I meant it half in jest. However Uganda certainly was considered. I don’t believe that any of the early Zionist leaders anticipated the tenacity and persistence of the Arab resistance to the establishment of a Jewish State.
One of the only exceptions was Zev Jabotinsky who wrote the following, his words turned out to be highly prophetic. I quote verbatim
The vast areas of the U.S. never contained more than one or two million Indians. The inhabitants fought the white settlers not out of fear that they might be expropriated, but simply because there has never been an indigenous inhabitant anywhere or at any time who has ever accepted the settlement of others in his country. Any native people — its all the same whether they are civilized or savage — views their country as their national home, of which they will always be the complete masters. They will not voluntarily allow, not only a new master, but even a new partner. And so it is for the Arabs. Compromisers in our midst attempt to convince us that the Arabs are some kind of fools who can be tricked by a softened formulation of our goals, or a tribe of money grubbers who will abandon their birth right to Palestine for cultural and economic gains. I flatly reject this assessment of the Palestinian Arabs. Culturally they are 500 years behind us, spiritually they do not have our endurance or our strength of will, but this exhausts all of the internal differences. We can talk as much as we want about our good intentions; but they understand as well as we what is not good for them. They look upon Palestine with the same instinctive love and true fervor that any Aztec looked upon his Mexico or any Sioux looked at his America.
Comment by h peskin — March 30, 2008 @ 6:52 pm
HP:
Here’s where Jabotinsky was wrong: the palestinian nationalism was a fraud. It was a fraud when the Husseinis and Nashashibis were selling their land to the Zionists, and killing other Arabs that wanted to do likewise, which enabled them to buy up more Arab land for pennies on the dollar and sell it too to the Jews. *Anti-Zionist* Benny Morris documents this. How can this ‘instinctive love and true fervor’ exist when the Arab leaders (appointed by the British) are gladly selling their land to the Jews?
It was also a fraud when the Arabs were willing to give the British military base rights in the region in exchange for helping the Arabs kill the Jews, as detailed in the ‘British Record on Partition’.
It’s further revealed as a fraud when one examines the fact that the Jews did not come to eradicate anyone, the palestinian population has grown tremendously because of the Jews, and many Arabs moved to the region to partake of the economy brought by the Jews.
In short, this ‘Arab resistance’ is a fraud. Which would be corroborated by the fact that working class Palestinians never formed any resistance. It was the Arab League elites that created the PLO, which oppresses working class Palestinians. And it is the US (and our Arabist State Department) that has facilitated this by propping up the PLO.
Furthermore, if we suppose that Hajj Amin Al Husseini’s slaughter of Jews during WWII was perfectly excusable–for the were looking to become part of the future Jewish state and to ’steal’ palestinian land, then why exactly was he also slaughtering so many Serbs?
Comment by jrob — March 30, 2008 @ 9:44 pm
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