Obama is in bed with the Iraq Study Group.
By Ted Belman
A number of people have written to me to tell me Brzezinski, either is not on Obama’s foreign policy team or is just one member of it. Ever since Brzezinski introduced Obama last summer, Brzezinski has remained in the background for fear of alienating Obama’s Jewish support. It makes little difference because all the others on the team are generally in agreement with his policies.
Now Lee Hamilton has officially joined the team. And as you know Hamilton and Brzezinski are joined at the hip. They both were on the Iraq Study Group and they both signed a letter among others, calling themselves “realists”, pre-Annapolis, in which they urged Bush to do a number of things to make Annapolis a success.
I would be remiss if I did not mention a third “realist”, namely James Baker, who was co-chair of the ISG. It was Baker who sold Lebanon out to Syria to get its support for the Iraq invasion first time around.
In Jim Baker Makes Things Worse in the Middle East — He’s an Old Hand at Creating Chaos & Befriending Oppression we learn,
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He won over another Baathist dictatorship, Syria, to the anti-Iraqi operation by allowing it to occupy Lebanon in its entirety, including the last Christian bastions. In other words, the United States authorized one Arab country [Syria] to subjugate another [Lebanon] in order to prevent a third [Iraq] from absorbing a fourth [Kuwait]. It might well be, obviously, that Baker wanted to create –through a Syrian protectorate over Lebanon– a precedent applicable to Kuwait, as long as Saddam Hussein renounced formal annexation [of Kuwait]. Up to 9 January 1991, the American secretary of state was negotiating with the Iraqi minister of foreign affairs, Tariq Aziz, in the hope of finding a compromise [allowing Iraq to keep on occupying Kuwait without formal annexation].
Bush Sr following Baker’s advice, pressured Shamir by the withholding of funds to get Israel to attend the Madrid Conference and to put Jerusalem on the table. Now that’s “realism”. We can expect the same this time around if the ISG has anything to say about it.
The unsolicited Brzezinski-Hamilton Report
The surprising recommendation that will probably make the most news is that Washington should participate in starting a “genuine dialogue” with the fundamentalist Hamas group, although the proposal stops short of calling for Hamas to be invited to the November conference. While commending Bush for planning to invite Syria, they say that the invitation should not be symbolic but “genuine engagement.” The letter argues that if Syria or Hamas are ostracized, “prospects that they will play a spoiler role increase dramatically… By the same token, a comprehensive cease-fire or prisoner exchange is not possible without Hamas’ cooperation.”
Perhaps the most significant recommendation concerns what the U.S. should do if Israeli and Palestinian leaders fail to reach a pre-conference understanding on the endgame contours of a permanent peace agreement on the Israeli-Palestinian dispute: the authors say that the so-called Quartet (a mediation group including the U.S., Russia, EU and UN) should lay down an endgame outline for them. They say that such an outline would be based on based on UN Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, the Clinton parameters of 2000, the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative and Bush’s 2003 Roadmap, and should include the following points:
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–Two states, based on the lines of June 4, 1967, with minor, reciprocal, and agreed-upon modifications as expressed in a 1:1 land swap.
–Jerusalem as home to two capitals, with Jewish neighborhoods falling under Israeli sovereignty and Arab neighborhoods under Palestinian sovereignty.
–Special arrangements for the Old City, providing each side control of its respective holy places and unimpeded access by each community to them.
–A solution to the refugee problem that is consistent with the two-state solution, addresses the Palestinian refugees’ deep sense of injustice as well as provides them with meaningful financial compensation and resettlement assistance.
–Security mechanisms that address Israeli concerns while respecting Palestinian sovereignty.
Another significant recommendation: rather than having the U.S. mediate the Israeli-Palestinian negotiations, as during the Clinton administration, “credible and sustained permanent-status negotiations” should proceed “under international supervision” with a timetable for their completion. According to the authors, that will enable the peace process to proceed to the next step, negotiations on the “”normal, peaceful relations between Israel and all Arab states” outlined in the Arab peace initiative.
The letter repeats calls for reciprocal confidence-building measures by Israelis and Palestinians contained in the Road Map. But, echoing recent Arab urgings, the authors say that “of utmost importance, if the conference is to have any credibility, it must coincide with a freeze in Israeli settlement expansion.” Their letter argues that “it is impossible to conduct a serious discussion on ending the occupation while settlement construction proceeds apace.”
This is what Obama’s team, with or without Brzezinski, will attempt to achieve. This is what the liberal/left Jews want and why they have formed a new lobby group.
And this is what I and most Jews don’t want.
Ted writes:
The letter repeats calls for reciprocal confidence-building measures by Israelis and Palestinians contained in the Road Map. But, echoing recent Arab urgings, the authors say that “of utmost importance, if the conference is to have any credibility, it must coincide with a freeze in Israeli settlement expansion.” Their letter argues that “it is impossible to conduct a serious discussion on ending the occupation while settlement construction proceeds apace.”
This is what Obama’s team, with or without Brzezinski, will attempt to achieve. This is what the liberal/left Jews want and why they have formed a new lobby group.
And this is what I and most Jews don’t want.
_____________________________________________
My comment: There is little doubt that this is what you don’t want. But there is a lot of doubt that you speak for most Jews.
Every poll taken taken recently of Jewish opinion both in Israel and abroad has indicated a fairly strong desire to give up most of the territories for peace by a majority of those questioned. There might be some differences about the question of Jerusalem and other issues, but there is a consensus that negotiations must continue despite numerous roadblocks and difficulties.Continuing with expanding settlements violates both the spirit and basis for these negotiations. Of course you are free to voice your dissent, but not at the expense of distorting the truth.
Peace = Muslims stop violence and incitement against Christians and Jews.
If peace happens, why a need for Jews or Christians to leave the other’s land?
If Muslims refuse to tolerate Jews living in their nation, is that “peace?”
What kind of “peace” is it when Israel allows its Muslims to build more homes, but Muslims won’t allow Jews to do the same?
This is the “peace” of dhimitude, of second-class citizenship.
This is not “peace,” this is domination, submission, AKA “Islam.”
Any Jew who fails to recognize these basic truths needs to read the Koran, to take what Muslim leaders say literally, and needs to read the history of Muslim relations with non-Muslims.
The attitude expressed by “h peskin” suggests a need for rudimentary background reading.
Please start with the Koran.
Read Bat YeOr’s books and/or Spender’s books – any one of them will do.
After accepting that the Koran really requires Muslims to convert, enslave or kill all Infidels, and after reading that history shows that Muslims really and truly do convert, enslave and kill infidels, then revisit the instant issue.
The issue at hand is for Jews to accept the fact that Islam is an implacable enemy, which offers no compromise, no “we can work it out.”
Please educate yourself, before betting your children’s future on the concept that all the Muslims what is a little respect, a little land to call their own, and of course, not having to listen to church bells or to see Jews anywhere in their lands.
Marc
We complain bitterly about Hamas-as well as we should considering their intransigence and continuing violence.
But we forget that Israel originally funded, supported and sponsored this movement in the totally wrong-headed belief that they would be a peaceful alternative to the P.L.O.
We complain bitterly about Iran- as well as we should considering their intransigence, and threatening posture and hateful rhetoric directed at Israel.
But once again we forget that Israel cooperated with America in 1986 (Iran-contra scandal) to ship heavy weapons to Iran in its war with Iraq-at a time when Iran was clearly being defeated.This move kept the Iranian Mullahs from being toppled.
In my opinion, again and again, Israel is proving to be its own worst enemy.
HP you are wrong again . Read the third comment in this post
http://www.israpundit.com/2008/?p=670#more-670
Might we finally put to rest the erroneous Eidelberg characterization of Zbig as a Marxist and some sort of peacenik.
One of Zbig’s closest associate was that other Marxist, Paul Wolfowitz.
During the Iranian crises Zbig called for an attack on Iran, and requested full support for the Shah. He was overruled by the more dovish members of the Carter cabinet.
While serving as a National Security Advisor, he proved to be one of the most Hawkish individual to hold this position. He was by far a lot tougher than Kissinger, who was no pussy-cat himsef.
Zbig was a former member of the Trilateral Commission, as conservative a group as you can get.
During the Camp David negotiations he proved to be sensitive to the security concerns of Israel.
Please Ted, spare us from Mavens like Eidelberg.
Marc
I don’t need to read the Koran to learn about commandments that counsel bloody violence and aggressive acts against the enemy. I can open up almost any page in the old testament and read almost the same. What makes us more compassionate people is the fact that we are by and large less observant and take this whole business not too seriously.I can assure you however we have our nut cases too. They are also not prepared to compromise.
HP said:
Actually, HP, this is very much in doubt:
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2002/06/08/1320881.php?show_comments=1
If you have evidence to the contrary, then please provide it. *If* Israel ever did anything beneficial for hamas, it is only because the Western and Arab elites have only provided two groups for them to negotiate with, both of which are sworn to Israel’s destruction. Of course, this works out nicely for you, for you can blame Israel for any course of action. ‘Oh! those extremists won’t negotiate!’ ‘Oh, those silly Jews are the ones that originally funded, supported and sponsored this movement!’.
Peskin, it’s quite interesting that your ideology is 100% identical to people like Ray McGovern, Vince Cannistraro and similar anti-Israelites.
All three candidates are probably in bed so to speak with the principles of the Iraq Study Group. The alternative to that study would almost require an American administration to take a pro Israeli position. I almost discount results of polls of American Jews the majority to which few have a clue as to what is happening here and over 90% of them have never been here. I doubt the Peskins and his fellow anti Israel Travelers have ever been or even have a desire to come here. In a previous post I gave definition equating anti Zionism with anti antisemitism:
According to this definition Peskin seems to fit the criteria!
It is to my mind irrelevant whether Israel in the past did this or that. Just like one could make a case of some Americans who helped Hitler. In the end America did fight Hitler and defeated Him and Europe has been at peace for over 60 yers now. Thus the formula is set in stone first defeat totally your enemy then create a policy of peace, under doable conditions (OURS). I don’t see why this is so difficult for some to understand.
The question seems to be who are the monkeys? The Peskins or we nut cases? Compromise is for those who do not have right nor power on their side not for those who have both Right and Power. It is ridiculous for for Israel to even think about compromise when we have the power ( but lack the will it seems) to impose our own solutions. Re: Violence in the Torah, yes very bloody but thats Judaism so I would advise anyone not comfortable with it to look for another religion like Buddhism although those Monks can be very violent at times.
Here is a blog that was sent to me that was right on the money.
This blogger can really write. He sent me the following email.
Ted, thanks for your kind words about the pieces referring to Zbig and Obama. Your post on the subject of Zbig had some very interesting –albeit terrifying– material. Obama is simply the greatest faker in the current US presidential campaign. His danger is compounded by his excellent talent for demagoguery.
So, in order to bring him down, in order to sober up some of his manic followers [unfairly described as "hysterical" since many are male], it is necessary to vitiate and refute his own cynically self-crafted [or "advisor"-crafted] image as untainted by the old Washington crowd, as new, fresh, young, innocent, etc. It is important, I believe, to list as many of Obama’s “advisors” as possible. Let the maniacs and groupies know that Zbig, Kurtzer, and a whole gang of old Washington zombies are behind Obama, who is a kind of fresh, young, innocent mask on the hideous face of Zbig. Obama is something like Dorian Gray in appearance whereas Zbig is his hideous portrait, the real Obama.
It should also be explicitly stated that Obama means wars and recklessness in foreign policy and the assault on civilization, because of his ties to Zbig. As someone whom you quoted said, by comparison to an Obama administration, Bush’s time will l look like a golden age of peace. Bush compared to Zbig is like Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm compared to Charles Manson. Obama’s fakery has to stressed over and over.
I must say that your references on Zbig are chilling but I felt more or less that way as soon as I learned of the Obama-Zbig connection.
On. a lighter note, we could meet when you come to Israel. You have my email. Drop me an email message.
Best Wishes & Shalom,
Peskin your statement#1is debunked by the facts. You never back up your opinions with facts thus rendering them just your opionion . You use sophistry instead of factually based debate pls try harder in the future.
Detailed poll results show intense opposition to government, US positions
By IMRA November 15, 2007
A poll carried out within the last month shows strong opposition to the positions that Secretary Condoleeza Rice and President Shimon Peres have repeatedly claimed are held by Israel’s Jews. It turns out that the Jews of Israel do not want the IDF to withdraw from most of Judea and Samaria, do not believe the Palestinian Authority is responsible or capable of stopping terror against Israel, do believe that Hamas is likely to topple Mahmoud Abbas in the West Bank. Israeli Jews overwhelming oppose dividing Jerusalem and recoil at the idea of transferring sovereignty over the Temple Mount.
The telephone poll of a representative sample of 1,012 adult Israeli Jews was carried out by Maagar Mohot Survey Institute (headed by Professor Yitzchak Katz) on 18-26 October 2007.
Survey error +/- 4.5 percentage points. The poll was commissioned by the Israel Policy Center for Promoting Parliamentary Democracy and Jewish Values in Israeli Public Life. The Jerusalem-based center is headed by Prof. Yitzhak Klein, who also advises the Knesset Law Committee.
Text of questions and results as translated by IMRA:
Prime Minister Ehud Olmert is carrying out negotiations with the head of the PA, Abu Mazen, on an agreement that he claims will advance an arrangement with the Palestinians, within the framework of which the IDF will withdraw from Judea and Samaria, Jewish communities will be evacuated from there, part of Jerusalem will be transferred to the Palestinians and a Palestinian state will be established in those areas.
1. In your opinion, is Abu Mazen and his government able or unable today to prevent terror attacks and the firing of rockets against Israel from the areas of Judea and Samaria?
Unable 77% Maybe 10% Able 12% Other replies 1%
2. Should Israel withdraw form the territories of Judea and Samaria and Jerusalem, what do you think the chances are that Hamas takes over these areas?
No chance 5% Very low chance 7%
Middle chance 21%
High chance 27% Very high 38%
Other replies 2%
3. In your opinion, what are the chances that rockets will be fired at Israeli cities should the IDF withdraw from areas in Judea and Samaria or Jerusalem?
No chance 5% Very low 13%
Middle 25%
High 23% Very high 32%
Other replies 2%
4. There are those who maintain that within 3 to 5 years Israel will have a system to defend about rockets that will prevent the Israeli heartland from being hit. Do you think that in the future it may be possible to rely on such a system to provide sufficient protection?
No 32% Maybe 36% Yes 28% Other replies 4%
5. In light of the current situation of the PA, do you support or oppose Israel committing to transfer sovereignty over the Temple Mount to the Palestinians?
Oppose 78% Maybe 9% Support 11% Other replies 2%
6. In light of the current situation of the PA, do you support or oppose that Israel should commit to transfer parts of Jerusalem to Palestinian control??
Oppose 69% Maybe 11% Support 17% Other replies 3%
7. In light of the current situation of the PA, do you support or oppose that Israel should commit to remove the IDF from most of Judea and Samaria, and transfer it to Palestinian control?
Oppose 61% Maybe 15% Support 22% Other replies 2%
8. In light of the experience with the disengagement, do you support or oppose that Israel should commit to a mass evacuation of Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria?
Oppose 65% Maybe 13% Support 19% Other replies 3%
9.In light of past experience, do you believe that the evacuation of communities and withdrawal of the IDF from territories strengthens or weakens Israel security and international standing?
Weakens 59% Strengthens 33% Other replies 8%
10. Do you support or oppose the proposal according to which the State of Israel will offer reasonable compensation to Palestinians in Judea and Samaria in order that they agree to emigrate to other countries?
Support 54% Oppose 38% Other replies 8%
11. Do you agree or disagree with the claim that today, in retrospect, the drive to achieve peace with the Palestinians has done damage to the State of Israel?
Agree 52% Disagree 40% Other replies 8%
12. Do you agree or disagree with the claim that in light of the experience of the past Israel should deal with the Palestinians with a tougher approach and not seek simple ways to solve the Israel-Arab conflict?
Agree 65% Disagree 28% Other replies 7%
13. What do you think is closer to the truth?
36% The main purpose of Ehud Olmert’s drive for an agreement with Abu Mazen is his concern for Israel’s national interests.
53% The main purpose of Ehud Olmert’s drive for an agreement with Abu Mazen is his concern for his personal and political future 11% Other replies
14. What do you think is closer to the truth 34% The main purpose of the Kadima Party’s drive for an agreement with Abu Mazen is concern for Israel’s national interests.
55% The main purpose of the Kadima Party’s drive for an agreement with Abu Mazen is the desire to insure the continuation of the coalition and remaining in power.
11% Other replies
15. Today there are four criminal investigations underway against prime minister Ehud Olmert. The prime minister announced that he does not intend to temporarily remove himself because of thee investigations. Should the Knesset act now to (temporarily) remove or to expel Olmert from his position?
Yes 55% No 40% Other replies 5%
16. What do you think is closer to the truth?
39% The main reason that minister Avigdor Lieberman favors dividing Jerusalem is his concern for the national interests of Israel 45% The main reason that minister Avigdor Lieberman favors dividing Jerusalem is his desire to keep his seat in the Olmert Government 16% Other replies 16%
17. in light of the remarks of Minister Avigdor Lieberman favoring the division of Jerusalem do you see him today as more trustworthy or less than in the past?
Less trustworthy 46% No change 32% More 13% Other replies 9%
18. Minister Eli Yishai, chairman of the Shas Party, said a number of weeks ago that Shas will not give its hand to the division of Jerusalem. In light of this declaration, do you think that Shas should leave the Olmert Government if an agreement is signed with Abu Mazen that includes the division of Jerusalem?
Should not 29% Should 60% Other replies 11%
19. What do you think is closer to the truth?
29% The main motive of Shas in its decisions on policy is the national interest of Israel 65% The main motive of Shas in its decisions on policy is the desire to retain the positions and budgets that they have within the framework of the Olmert Government 06% Other replies
20. Minister of Education Yuli Tamir decided recently to include in the history books used in Israeli schools information according to which some Israeli Arabs see the War of Independence of Israel as “Nakba”, namely a national disaster for the Palestinian People. Do you support or oppose Minister Tamir’s decision?
Support 32% Oppose 63% Other replies 5%
21. The JNF was founded by the Zionist movement in order to purchase land in Israel and to settle Jews in it. Recently the Supreme Court ruled that the JNF cannot designate its land exclusively for Jewish settlement, and in light of this the Knesset approved, in a preliminary reading, a law that permits designating the land of the JNF exclusively to Jews. Do you support or oppose this proposed law?
Support 63% Oppose 31% Other replies 6%
22. Last year a number of organizations and prominent leaders of the Israeli-Arab population published position papers, within which they rejected the nature of Israel as the state of the Jewish People. In light of this position, do you agree or disagree with the assertion that Israeli Arabs should not be citizens of the State and it would be better if they took another citizenship?
Agree 42% Disagree 46% Other replies 12%
Background question:
Religiosity: Secular 51% Traditional 24% National-religious 10% Ultra Orthodox 12% Other replies 3%
Yamit:
I have’nt a clue from where you are getting your numbers.
Anyone with half a brain realizes that the present situation is not sustainable. The Israeli public has again and again through polls, elections and public forums expressed the view that a two state solution is the only game in town. O.K. Yamit and your fellow rejectionists, climb in bed with Hamas and Iran and keep shouting No. Enjoy the company.
It never ceases to amaze me how similar extremists are, at both end of the spectrum.
Ok, if you were the head honcho of Israel, what would you propose as a viable solution? One that is grounded in reality.
Yamit: Addendum to my previous post.
Who or what is IMRA?
I tried googling this name and I got nothing regarding your poll results.
HP
Utter ignorance and nonsense.It is not a matter of comparing written texts that are very old. Rather it is a matter of how each religion dealt with the violent passages. In Judaism, they have been relegated to the past having to do with a specific time and place. They are no longer applicable either practically or religiously. The same can’t be said for Islam.
To equate compassion with loss of religiosity is indefensible, arrogant and self serving.
HP
You were the one to bring up “numbers” in support of your argument. When challenged you turned to pragmatism.
Yamit: a further investigation uncovered a group calling itself IMRA. Independant, review and analysis Association. Further digging disclosed that it is far, far from being independent. Its orientation is strongly on the Right. I would grant you that the Israeli public is skeptical that the talks would succeed , which is a far cry from saying it ought never have been undertaken or should be suspended.
Israelis are also unhappy with American pressure, but where were these people when all those massive American grants, loans, guarantees and outright gifts were made? Did they honestly believe that there were no obligations attached to these benefits? Did they actually think that there is such a thing as a free lunch?
Please! Everyone who wants to know about Islam’s design on Israel, the U.S., and the rest of the world, read the Koran. Is it any wonder that Muslim’s will not debate the spiritual nature (or the lack of) of the Koran. There is no question what Arafat stood for which was the destruction of Israel and it’s Jewish population. If anyone has questions about Arafat and his minions, read Netanyahu’s Fighting Terrorism (the 2001 edition). Learn form the Koran and learn from history, so we will not repeat it.
cybersquid
Peskin IMRA http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=38754
The numbers and polls are all over the place and if your primary sources are not anti Israel and antisemitic MSM .They won’t usually publish the truth about Israel as they have an agenda that is contra to anything positive about Israel or goes against what they want you to know. The truthful information is easily accessible for anyone with a curiosity and a willingness to find out and search. What you project here are personal opinions to which most have no basis in fact although many do share your opinions and world view but that does not make them true.
One of the essential canards of warfare is you do not leave an enemy in your rear,in your midstor left strong enough so he can fight you another day. I don’t give a shit about being politically correct and wish to say again NO ARABS NO TERRORISM!!! this is truth and everything else is commentary! How is not a subject that this blog will allow due to space. I know how and I know Arabs, I live with them speak some Arabic and have fought and killed them.. What more of a humane condition is there to be rid of our mortal enemy by helping and encouraging them to leave then to have to kill them later on or be killed as the case may be but |Peace there will not and cannot be. I disagree with Teds statement:
Most Jews in Israel would agree with my position here if they had a leadership that would seek to implement them. The so called left is so discredited here that all that is needed is leadership to put Israel on the right course. Secular Israel is a dieing Relic like communism, socialism and all the other false ideologies and Gods that the Jews always seem to gravitate to.
In the end all of those transitory beliefs get replaced with other transitory beliefs while Judaism, real Torah based Judaism is the only Island of consistency that has been unmovable for the last 2 thousand years.
There is no other reason for Jews to be in Israel except for Torah belief and belief in God. There is no other purpose to have a Jewish State except Jewish redemption. I see no reason for Jews living in a Jewish state not to have her own Jewish law and culture. That means the application of Torah law to the extent possible rebuilding the Temple and reconstituting the Sanhedrin. Now in my book you are the extremist and the nut case and I just a proud ex American, Jew living his dream in the Land of Israel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQAM0I0rDjQ
Peskin an hour ago I sent a comment that never showed up here and that was after spending almost an hour attempting to reply to you. I included a ling to IMRA to help you out. So you found it all by yourself? The word independent I would imagine means that they have no formal political affiliations or funding. Now I sent you results a an extensive poll by one of Israels most reputable poller and IMRA only translated (which is what they do), and published in English the results. Since that poll there have been similar polls and all are consistent and all have similar results including a nice majority in favor of transferring the Camel Jockies out of our country. Ten years ago this would have been challenged and even prosecuted. IMRA may have a political point of view that for Israel center right Like Ted Belman but I would not consider either of them on the political right as neither are ideological. Now I am on the ideological right always have been and If you like I am able to make an ideological case for what I believe in. I am able to give you chapter and verse from both a secular or religious point of view. You may give opinion but you can’t support the opinion as the position you take is unsupported by facts historical and current.
You can’t debate a believing Christian fundamentalist who will not accept Rabbinical or Talmudic arguments unless you quote his and our scripture to prove your point. You are similar and since you seem to be an apostate self hating Jew and anti Zionist no argument not based on sources that you hold Holy will move you off your position thats Ok you are not important but your arguments do stimulate debate with others and thats good. I just wish you could present your positions with more than inane sophistry though.
here is a nice clip just for you enjoy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQAM0I0rDjQ
yamit 82 – I completely agree with you about Peskin. Don’t waste your time responding to him as it is obvious he doesn’t have a clue about what he is talking about.
As for your information. Thank you for educating us on the facts! Job well done! Don’t waste energy on petty pesky.
It’s people like yamit 82 who express an education that petty pesky needs!
Yamit, Ted and others:
With respect to my comments regarding the similarities between the Koran and Old Testament in the area of violence and cruel punishment, I seemed to have touched a highly sensitive and raw nerve.The fact that Islam flowed from Judaism, that so much of the practises of the two faiths mirror each other is very much a taboo topic for the very observant on both sides.
For crossing this forbidden line, I am being found guilty of the crime of apostosy which is serious indeed.
For a wikipedia definition of Apostosy see below:
Many religious groups and even some states punish apostates. Apostates may be shunned by the members of their former religious group[1] or worse. This may be the official policy of the religious group or may happen spontaneously, due in some sense to psycho-social factors as well. Historically as well as currently, the offense can be punishable by death. The Catholic Church may in certain circumstances respond to apostasy by excommunicating the apostate, while the traditional holy writings of both Judaism (Deuteronomy 13:6-10) and Islam (al-Bukhari, Diyat, bab 6) demand the death penalty for apostates.
May I repeat a quote from my late Mother often repeated in her Galician shtetle.
” For telling the truth , you are often beaten and you are not even allowed to cry.”
Peskin I have no problem with the truth show me the truth not opinion.Deuteronomy 13:6-10) and Islam (al-Bukhari, Diyat, bab 6) demand the death penalty for apostates. True if you were living in a jewish state governed by Torah Law and a Jewish court that had the authority and power to convict and sentence. Since most Jews today fall into the apostate category I doubt whether this law could be applied. I for one would not be opposed to it in certain circumstances.Lol Good for you now you are making arguments backed up by primary sources. keep it up and we can have serious debate. You jumped on a word I used and ignored your primary positions. Changing the subject is a good ploy though but it won’t work here. We don’t have hit squads yet ready to eliminate all Jewish Apostates, so its not a relevant point of argument. I could have used a number of alternative terms to describe you all pretty harsh, and I believe all true!
Peskin compare yourself to Yosef Mendelevitch
“And Joseph Came out of the Pit”
[The post below was written by Yosef Mendelevitch, and translated by Moshe Kempinski. I thought this was just too beautiful to pass up. Hope you enjoy it.]
When I was 11 years old the Soviet police came looking for “gold” in our house in Latvia. Even though they did not find anything they took my father in for interrogation. On the day of the trial I prayed “Please, free my father”.
That was my first prayer. Faith burst forth in a time of distress in spite of my being so distant from Jewish learning. After he was released my father suffered a heart attack and my mother passed away. Essentially we remained as orphans. My disappointment with communism changed me at the age of 14 into a Zionist. I became excited and impassioned with every mention of Israel. When I was studying engineering in the University, I established, along with some of my friends, an underground cell. We wrote printed and distributed Zionist material. We arrived at the synagogues to try to persuade other young people to embrace the ideals of Zionism and I slowly began to truly understand that Israel was my home and would be my place of refuge.
I also understood that if I was to become an engineer I would not be given permission to make aliyah [immigration to Israel] so I stopped my studies and I immediately was drafted into the army. I decided to present myself as being insane in order to get an army deferment. The Army officer asked me:
“Why did you stop studying in the Institute?”
“I felt enslaved, I had to study … to work … all obligations … I wanted to be free.”
The officer sent me for tests in the Hospital for the Insane. After a week it was decided that I was not stable and they released me. I thereupon returned to my activities and I gave in a request to be allowed to make aliyah to Israel. I was given a rejection slip and was immediately fired from my job. It was then that I learned about a group from Leningrad who were planning an escape to Israel and I decided to join them. Its leader was Mark Dymshitz, a combat pilot who planned on commandeering a plane. We planned to take over a plane at the airport at the Russian border and fly it to Sweden. I packed a knitted kippa, my Tanach, and studied a little about the Jewish festivals, just in case I was arrested for a long time.
Everything seemed to be going well but at our rendezvous spot we realized they had caught on to us. We decided to march on towards the plane anyway, when suddenly we heard a shot and Mark was on the ground laying in his own blood … in front of his wife and daughters. The dream had disintegrated into splinters.
I accepted it all in silence. A police detective approached me later in the jail and said, “Yosef, what happened to you? You are a Soviet like me. Act nicely and we will help you.” Instead of reaching out to that lifeline that they had offered me, I set out to show that in fact I was not like him, a Soviet … that I was a Jew. I felt that in the heavens loftier demands were being placed upon me. It was then I decided to begin to observe the Shabbat. I demanded the jailer give me a mop and water in order to wash the filthy floor. I washed my t-shirt and wore it in honor of Shabbat. I had been saving some bread for this day and I covered my head with some handkerchief as a kippa.
The investigator became angry with me, “This is not a cultured way to behave.”
“This is Jewish culture,” I answered.
The investigators and the prosecutor concluded that I was just a fanatic. Yet I proved to them something else … that I was a free man, even in the prison cell. All this because of the commandments I was observing. I did not consider those commandments an extra burden but rather they became my tools of salvation. If I observe them then I will remain who I am. If I stop then I will fall. As I turned more to G-d I immediately began to see His helping hand appear in every instance of my life.
It was then that they found me praying Shabbat prayers in the dressing rooms rather than working. They threw me into solitary confinement. I was proud that I was being punished for the sake of the Shabbat. After a month I was tried and sentenced to another three years in a more strict prison.
After 11 years in prison I broke. I had lost any joy in life. I had obtained some torah study books and my jailers found them and had confiscated them. I decided to begin a hunger strike until they would be returned. Suddenly, with that decision, I was refilled with joy. I felt like Moses who fasted 40 days before receiving the Torah. The fast taught me to look inward and be cleaved unto the Holy One, Blessed Be He.
After 56 days of the hunger fast the warden said, “Here are your books just stop the hunger strike.”
I sensed that because of my struggle my release was imminent. After a month I was transferred to the central KGB prison in Moscow. After two weeks I was informed that I was being expelled from the Soviet union because “I had damaged my character as a Soviet citizen.”
I burst out with a “Baruch hashem.”
“Why are you so happy we are expelling you from your motherland.”
“You are expelling me into my motherland.”
I felt like Joseph being taken out of the pit. They let me shower, gave me a haircut, and gave me presentable clothes. They gave me a ticket and escorted me to the airport in order that I could fly home, to Israel.
:
“And Joseph Came out of the Pit”
[The post below was written by Yosef Mendelevitch, and translated by Moshe Kempinski. I thought this was just too beautiful to pass up. Hope you enjoy it.]
When I was 11 years old the Soviet police came looking for “gold” in our house in Latvia. Even though they did not find anything they took my father in for interrogation. On the day of the trial I prayed “Please, free my father”.
That was my first prayer. Faith burst forth in a time of distress in spite of my being so distant from Jewish learning. After he was released my father suffered a heart attack and my mother passed away. Essentially we remained as orphans. My disappointment with communism changed me at the age of 14 into a Zionist. I became excited and impassioned with every mention of Israel. When I was studying engineering in the University, I established, along with some of my friends, an underground cell. We wrote printed and distributed Zionist material. We arrived at the synagogues to try to persuade other young people to embrace the ideals of Zionism and I slowly began to truly understand that Israel was my home and would be my place of refuge.
I also understood that if I was to become an engineer I would not be given permission to make aliyah [immigration to Israel] so I stopped my studies and I immediately was drafted into the army. I decided to present myself as being insane in order to get an army deferment. The Army officer asked me:
“Why did you stop studying in the Institute?”
“I felt enslaved, I had to study … to work … all obligations … I wanted to be free.”
The officer sent me for tests in the Hospital for the Insane. After a week it was decided that I was not stable and they released me. I thereupon returned to my activities and I gave in a request to be allowed to make aliyah to Israel. I was given a rejection slip and was immediately fired from my job. It was then that I learned about a group from Leningrad who were planning an escape to Israel and I decided to join them. Its leader was Mark Dymshitz, a combat pilot who planned on commandeering a plane. We planned to take over a plane at the airport at the Russian border and fly it to Sweden. I packed a knitted kippa, my Tanach, and studied a little about the Jewish festivals, just in case I was arrested for a long time.
Everything seemed to be going well but at our rendezvous spot we realized they had caught on to us. We decided to march on towards the plane anyway, when suddenly we heard a shot and Mark was on the ground laying in his own blood … in front of his wife and daughters. The dream had disintegrated into splinters.
I accepted it all in silence. A police detective approached me later in the jail and said, “Yosef, what happened to you? You are a Soviet like me. Act nicely and we will help you.” Instead of reaching out to that lifeline that they had offered me, I set out to show that in fact I was not like him, a Soviet … that I was a Jew. I felt that in the heavens loftier demands were being placed upon me. It was then I decided to begin to observe the Shabbat. I demanded the jailer give me a mop and water in order to wash the filthy floor. I washed my t-shirt and wore it in honor of Shabbat. I had been saving some bread for this day and I covered my head with some handkerchief as a kippa.
The investigator became angry with me, “This is not a cultured way to behave.”
“This is Jewish culture,” I answered.
The investigators and the prosecutor concluded that I was just a fanatic. Yet I proved to them something else … that I was a free man, even in the prison cell. All this because of the commandments I was observing. I did not consider those commandments an extra burden but rather they became my tools of salvation. If I observe them then I will remain who I am. If I stop then I will fall. As I turned more to G-d I immediately began to see His helping hand appear in every instance of my life.
It was then that they found me praying Shabbat prayers in the dressing rooms rather than working. They threw me into solitary confinement. I was proud that I was being punished for the sake of the Shabbat. After a month I was tried and sentenced to another three years in a more strict prison.
After 11 years in prison I broke. I had lost any joy in life. I had obtained some torah study books and my jailers found them and had confiscated them. I decided to begin a hunger strike until they would be returned. Suddenly, with that decision, I was refilled with joy. I felt like Moses who fasted 40 days before receiving the Torah. The fast taught me to look inward and be cleaved unto the Holy One, Blessed Be He.
After 56 days of the hunger fast the warden said, “Here are your books just stop the hunger strike.”
I sensed that because of my struggle my release was imminent. After a month I was transferred to the central KGB prison in Moscow. After two weeks I was informed that I was being expelled from the Soviet union because “I had damaged my character as a Soviet citizen.”
I burst out with a “Baruch hashem.”
“Why are you so happy we are expelling you from your motherland.”
“You are expelling me into my motherland.”
I felt like Joseph being taken out of the pit. They let me shower, gave me a haircut, and gave me presentable clothes. They gave me a ticket and escorted me to the airport in order that I could fly home, to Israel.
Yamit:
Thank you for this. It is indeed an inspiring testament. But coming fron a self professed non observant Jew?…………….. How come?
Yamit,makes you tick?
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