“Annapolis” is all about ending the occupation.
By Ted Belman
It is standard practice for athletes and magicians to fake us out. They distract our attention to mislead us as to their intentions. Politicians do too.
It used to be Israel’s policy to put facts on the ground to strengthen Israel’s hold on Judea and Samaria and to make time work against Palestinians. That was when we considered such lands “disputed territories”, when we sought to get agreement on “defensible borders” and believed that Jerusalem would be Israel’s undivided capital forever. No longer.
As a result of this activity, the US declared war on the settlements. The Mitchell Report in May ‘01, recommending a “settlement freeze”, was the first salvo. The Roadmap was the second. While Israel agonized over its acceptance it finally did so subject to fourteen reservations. These reservations served no purpose other than to put Israelis at ease about its acceptance. They were never heard from again. You might say the Israelis were faked out. Even so it is interesting to note that the reservations did not take issue with the settlement freeze or the requirement that Palestine be “viable” or that it be “contiguous. This was covered in my article Making a Silk Purse out of a Sow’s Ear.
Thus Israel was committed to same for the first time. Thereafter Israel began demonizing settlers and restricting building in the settlements subject to some posturing about infill. Israel also began turning a blind eye to illegal building by the Arabs. In effect it was now allowing Arabs to put facts on the ground even though no one was to take any steps that would prejudice the negotiations.
Sharon, who accepted the Roadmap and talked of painful concessions, bulldozed the Gaza Disengagement. Shortly thereafter his new party in coalition with Labour announce their Convergence Plan to much opposition so they backed off publicly. But remained committed to ending the occupation.
One of the big complaints of the Disengagement was that it was unilateral. I took issue with such criticism because no commitment he would have gotten would have been enforceable. Regardless the Kadima/Labour Coalition was determined to negotiate a withdrawal from the Westbank. This is what it wants to do. This governs all. So while we are focussed on the negotiations of core issues, wondering if Israel will avoid the Saudi Plan, Israel is using negotiations as a cover for disengagement sometimes known as “goodwill gestures”. Once again Israelis are faked out.
I wrote about this in “Annapolis” is a separation process, not a peace process and in Why must Israel create a “horizon of hope”?
My central point was that the Declaration of Principles in essence is an agreement for withdrawal and disengagement. It allows Israel to remain in the Westbank for security reasons until the US trained Palestinian Army can do the job. In the meantime Israel will not be sitting idle. It will begin to encourage settlers to leave, will stop financing anything on the east side of the new border, will give greater license to the Arabs including in Jerusalem. With each passing months Israel will be disengaging or ending the occupation. It doesn’t matter when an agreement on Jerusalem will be negotiated. It doesn’t matter if terror stops.
The more Israel withdraws, the more certain there will be a Palestinian state. Israel’s primary concern is to have borders agreed upon. If borders are agreed upon, Israel can end the occupation by returning to them. It won’t matter whether Jerusalem has been solved. But the more Israel disengages, the more tenuous its hold on Jerusalem will become.
But what about Hamas? While everyone is “outraged” that Brzezinski visited Syria and that Carter is visiting Hamas, I am sure they are a back channel and will be reporting back to Bush and Rice. America plans to wean Syria away from Iran. This will undermine Hezbollah and Hamas. So I expect that starting next year we will hear more and more about the Syrian tract. Israel is quite prepared to vacate the Golan in exchange for peace with Syria and Lebanon.
Can America do it? Yes, ultimately. Especially when Israel wants the same thing.
If you don’t believe me watch this State Department Video on The US-Palestinian Partnership
I believe this creeping disengagement, even without a declaration of principles being agreed to, will continue. The GoI will not put all this to the electorate until it is sure of winning. The more Israelis get used to it the less resistance there will be to the deal being worked out. But just to be sure, Kadima and Labour are in serious negotiations for a power sharing agreement between them so they can run on one ticket in the next election.
While it is okay for athletes and magicians to deceive, it is definitely not okay for the Israeli Government to deceive its citizens.
Giving Syria the Golan will do many things, none of them good for the Jews or for Israel. And one thing it will absolutely not do is create peace between Israel and Syria or Lebanon. And by the way, the goal is not peace, the goal is security for Israel and the Jews. Peace is only a by product of security. For example, the US is at war, has no peace with the Islamist, and does anyone in their right mind, outside of foolish people like Obama and Hillary and the left wing Dems, think that if we withdraw from fighting the Islamists in Iraq that we will no longer be at war? That we will have peace?? Please. Peaxe is only a by product of complete military victory and without that complete victory, there will never be security or peace
Comment by geigergag — April 13, 2008 @ 10:18 am
My point is that the GoI wants to end the occupation even if there is more terror. It feels that international legitimacy is worth it.
Comment by Ted Belman — April 13, 2008 @ 11:09 am
That neither Israel nor the United States government is asking what will happen upon the inevitable breakdown of any unilateral withdrawal is the single most important signpost in determining the goals of this process. At bottom this approach is designed to disadvantage the Jews enough to garner “acceptance” internationally. It is so ill-conceived as to make a mockery of human intelligence.
Comment by jerry — April 13, 2008 @ 11:46 am
Exactly, but American, Israeli and other western leaders just won’t get this through their thick skulls.
Comment by Laura — April 13, 2008 @ 11:54 am
Ted what you have outlined above almost proves my contention that this is primarily an Olmert,Labor and left wing effort to return to pre 67 borders with some minor modifications. Some combination of Clinton solution and the Saudi plan. I have maintained that there was no amount of pressure a Lame duck unpopular President who may want what Olmert is offering but was in no position to impose or exert pressure where it was not welcome.
There are though a few counter scenarios which must be considered first before we can throw in the towel.
It is very difficult to mobilize mass opposition to negotiations that are held in secret with few privy to what is being discussed and negotiated. Only when some concrete official or accredited announcement is made on details can opposition be effective. People need reasons and believable information for that to happen. Olmert and mazzen as well as Bush will try to delay such public debate till last min to avoid debate, opposition, and confrontation. Olmert does not have the political support in or out of Government to pull such a Gambit off.He will wait what for him to be the most precipitous moment and announce new elections and run on the agreement as a national referendum. There is also a lot of talk here of a joint Ticket of Kadima and Labour. Barak has been maneuvered into a position by Bush and olmert where he cannot fulfill his rise to popularity using position of DM to project him to top of Political Ladder as Olmert and Bush have not allowed him to make any political Hay using IDF successes to get there. Since there has not been any real IDF successes his popularity is in a slow measured decline. Labor has given up any realistic belief in itself as a main Party with a possibility of forming next government coalition. present leadership will be content to keep their jobs in next government, if they hold true to form they will all blame Barak and seek to dump him for younger leadership. The Labor veterans want to be in Goverment no matter what ;the younger back benchers
want out of coalition and distance from Olmert. They know the avenue to next tier in their political, personal ambitions is to replace current Labor leadership with new and younger faces otherwise by next elections Labor might be a non entity. Amir Peretz will leave Labor costing it at least 3-5 seats.
Ted which Israel are you talking about? The Golan has been annexed and can’t be given up without first amending or abrogating the Law.. There is no majority for such a giveaway in or out of the Knesset!! There is stronger support for Keeping the Golan than there is for Jerusalem as I know of no one in Israel that does not enjoy and love the Golan. Nobody here either believes or trusts Syria and war is preferable option.
I won”t for the time being go into civil disobedience, civil war. etc. Potential as well as the potential of IDF disintegration if Olmert has his way, as a coward, with 2 draft dodging sons one living I think in LA another in Paris and a Gay daughter, a wife who was a founding member in Peace Now. Olmert is a very dangerou Animal almost approaching Rabins traitorous Oslo Accords.I am afraid if left to his own devices he could even surpass Rabin and we all know how that ended, so there are many options and scenarios out there and nothing in the ME is deterministic.
Here is a clip for the one who should have been the next President:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sN9cqtJTvF4
Comment by yamit82 — April 13, 2008 @ 4:38 pm
Let’s end the illegal occupation of Islamic Palestine forever. We just simply transfer Palestinian refugees to Saudi Arabia where they can dance around their little black box and kiss their little black stone and throw stones at their devil - the God of Israel.
After we remove Palestine, Hamas, Hizbollah and the Iranian regime, hopefully, Israel can have peace. But the U.N. must recognize Israel’s right to pray on the Temple Mount and build the Third Temple.
As for any Israeli enemy within Israeli government who hands over any section of the Temple Mount to Muslims, they will be fired immediately.
Until the Third Jewish Temple on the Temple Mount is accepted by the world community - there won’t be peace for anyone. If the U.N. charter is about tolerance and Muslims want peace, let the Islamic Waqf give the Temple Mount to the Israelis. NOT!
This is where all negotiations end and where war begins and ends.
At least we have the promises of Revelation 19 and 20 where the devil and his armies are wiped out.
Comment by sunstartmf33 — April 13, 2008 @ 6:36 pm
King David, one of my best friends says, “Sorry, no negotiations with the Philistines!”
It’s like Goliath telling David, “Put down your slingshot!”
But the God of Israel has a surprise for the Goliaths who rise up against King David’s Nation!
Poor smucks!
I’m just glad that the God of Israel has a bigger bulldozer!
Comment by sunstartmf33 — April 13, 2008 @ 6:39 pm
Jimmy Carter says he likely will meet with Hamas
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080413/pl_nm/palestinians_hamas_carter_dc&printer=1;_ylt=Atk.C38PE5r08URs.2sDIqgb.3QA
Comment by sunstartmf33 — April 13, 2008 @ 7:18 pm
Hmmm. Before Jimmy Carter makes that visit, let’s send the headless body of Daniel Pearl to Jimmy or better yet, dig up all the Jewish bodies murdered by Hamas and send them to Carter’s mansion. Before he starts singing, “KUM-BAY-YAH” with Hamas and having a weiner roast, perhaps this potato head Jimmy Carter should pimp out Olmert’s gay daughter to negotiate with Hamas.
Each chair should have a dildo they can all sit on, which vibrates so they can all experience the same feelings together.
Jimmy Carter should bring O.J. Simpson as his aide!
Let’s throw a shrimp on the O.J. barbeque!
What does Jimmy want to say to Hamas? “Just wait until our lord and savior Obama gets elected, and then move in for the kill against those APARTHEID not peace Jews!”
I can just imagine what Nancy Pelosi and Carter say to terrorists: “Don’t worry - we’ll pay you well! Just keep on killing Jews! You have our support all the way! We hate Israel and the U.S. just as much as you do and once we dethrone that evil Bush administration, then we’ll work together as one big happy family!”
Oh, I can tell exactly what Jimmy Carter would say to Hamas - that potato head! He was the second worst U.S. President in history next to Bill Clinton there ever was. I’m thinking that the U.S. is allowing him to go over there so perhaps a terrorist will either shoot him or cut off his head.
Perhaps they can chop off Jimmy Carter’s head and put it next to the shrine of John The Baptist in Syria so the next time Nancy Pelosi goes to Syria to negotiate peace with terrorists, she can smile at the head of Jimmy Carter instead!
Comment by sunstartmf33 — April 13, 2008 @ 7:26 pm
Comment by elvis — April 13, 2008 @ 7:40 pm
Yamit82
“and a Gay daughter”
Would you say
“and a straight” daughter??
Can you clarify why please you said that. Also to Ted that is number 2 on this thread, other is sunstart if I am not wrong.
WHAT IS YOUR POSITION TED ON ATTACKS ON GAYS?
Comment by Felix Quigley — April 14, 2008 @ 8:35 am
Yamit82
I do not mean this as a major addition to the debate. I am doing some writing on my own site http://www.4international.wordpress.com and I am seeking some clarification on various positions taken by Jewish advocates like yourself.
The interesting part above for me was:
I agree when you suggest Israeli Jews will fight. Ted Belman is fatalistic which comes from his not having any perspective to win this battle. This throws him into support for a branch of US Imperialism, McCain, one branch as opposed to another which may be say Obama.
But I focus on the phrase above you use re “civil disobedience” etc.
My question to you is what would be the point. Now you will accept Olmert and co have the power of the state in their hands do you not?
Do you agree that it is necessary at some point to wrest that power of the state away from Olmert, and I do not mean Olmert as an individual, but from Olmert as the representative of a class, or a particular wing of a class, which is the Israeli ruling class.
Your position may be likened to the position of anarchists, who proceed with civil disobedience etc in the hopes that something will come out of the chaos.
So Yamit are you an anarchist disguised as an expert at quoting, or if not how do you face up to the state machine, which Olmert has at this point of time in his hands.
Are you going to allow the state machine to remain in his hands. If not, how to take it away from him. He is using this state machinery to betray…no?
You refered to the assasination of Rabin. That proves my point. You can execute the leader but the state and the state machine remains intact. In fact such acts of individual terorism, Russian Narodnik style, can land Israelis in a worse position, because of course the assasination can be used by the state machine, which includes of course the Media, to their own ends, very rapidly. In fact they can even fake assasinations, or massacres, as in Srebrenica, as in Racak, as in Markale Bombings, to further THEIR own interests.
So without clearing up these issues, especially the issue of your position towards the state, your contribution above remains at level of “confusing”.
Comment by Felix Quigley — April 14, 2008 @ 9:35 am
Finally
I have placed 3 articles on 4international which pose the question How can Israel be saved?
I have posed the question rather than try to answer it. The last of these 3 deals with the translation by MEMRI of the sayings of one Zaki who is the new PA ambassador to Lebanon.
Go to
http://4international.wordpress.com/2008/04/14/how-can-israel-be-saved-3/#more-241
Comment by Felix Quigley — April 14, 2008 @ 10:37 am
My intention in this article was to draw attention to the real agenda of disengagement. I did not take a stand.
But as I was writing it I was wondering what we could do to overcome what is taking place. I intended to have conversations with a number of people as to whether they agreed with me and what their thoughts were about turning it around.
I agree with Felix that we are up against a mighty machine that doesn’t have support of the people. I said as much in my article. Nothing will change without a total overhaul. So far it has been beyond our grasp. More on this later.
Comment by Ted Belman — April 14, 2008 @ 11:19 am
As for my position on Gays, I am absolutely against discrimination of any kind. I totally reject the religious point of view.
Comment by Ted Belman — April 14, 2008 @ 11:22 am
Felix what’s your problem about Gays? I forgot to mention that Olmert did his IDF stint as a reporter for IDF weekly, he was not a real soldier and stayed safe and mostly out of harms way. I mentioned his 2 draft dodging sons who have left Israel and I mentioned His wife a founding member of Peace Now? I mentioned his Lesbian daughter. Scientific refutation of biblical accounts often stems from misreading; sages insisted that historic events are given in Torah only for the sake of interpretation. Parting of the Reed Sea, for example, is a simple and credible account of crossing the marshes: foot Hebrews could do it, but the Egyptian chariots stuck in the mud.
Some commandments do not square with idealistic morality. Torah is firstly practical.
The Bible regulates evil rather than impractically bans it. Extreme regulation of marriage practically excludes polygamy. Prophet Samuel condemned monarchy in the strongest terms before it was established, but then the Bible proceeds to thoroughly regulate it. Torah mandates uniquely mild terms of slavery. Today, civilized people, we could opt for more strict moral interpretation, and altogether ban polygamy, monarchy, and slavery. We should not, however, loosen the moral prohibitions such as on sexual deviations.
Torah was given to wild people and is necessarily harsh. While the predominant threat is caret, banishment from offended community, Torah frequently prescribes death sentence for moral and ritual offenses. That attitude is reasonable: deviants threaten moral integrity of society no less than murderers threaten its physical existence. Severity of capital punishment is mitigated by practical difficulty of sentencing the offenders. Sexual deviations merit death, but who would copulate with animals in the presence of two witnesses? Torah effectively demands that sexual deviations be limited to private life. So long as the deviants do not flaunt their habits, society refrains from punishing them. Copulation with same-sex partners or beasts is practically not punishable if it is strictly private; deviants have to assure that no one witnesses them. Torah does not impose punishment for public manifestations of homosexuality such as affectionate looks and gestures - only the copulation is criminal and punishable if witnessed by others. Even in a religious Jewish state, homosexuals would be physically safe.
Societies restrict non-violent sexual manifestations such as sex in public, sale of pornographic magazines, and striptease clubs; magazines are covered, and clubs are zoned. homosexuality should be formally hidden in public.
No I would not have included her based on sexual preference but would have included her when she picketed the DM, Mofaz at his home and called him a war criminal and murderer. What my personal feeling re: Gays or straights, is my personal opinion and should have no relationship to any other aspect of my criticism of Israel Olmert or anything else unless I specifically do so. I mentioned his Gay daughter because 95% of all Israelis think that Homosexuality is an abomination from a biblical point of view and societal dysfunctional behavior at best. Have you noticed that we don’t need Homo witch hunts today the gay community have become a quasi new religion and have an in my face militant social, religious, and ideological movement. It is the gays themselves that bring focus upon themselves and forces indifferent fence sitters like me to take a stand . Well I have and am against. Homos are akin to cycle cell anemia in that an abnormal condition morphs or becomes catalytical in making the abnormal appear normal. I also have little love for Europe and most Europeans, especially the Swiss! I do not Like communism in any form, I have little love or respect for Christianity, But love many Christians. I don’t like Jews very much but will be prepared to defend and die for them. I look at our current condition somewhat philosophically in that we have been in many worse situations in our long and colorful history and good leaders were always the exception almost never the rule. We have always survived in spite of our individual and collective defects. I believe we will survive Olmert and company as well. History teaches that there is never a direct causal line between cause and effect and the eventual end point or destination will take many detours getting to any given desired or undesired end point . Since I am not a Prophet or Son of a Prophet I can’t predict how difficult will be our historical Journey but I would never count the Jew out of any scenario.
I am not opposed to violence or civil war and can even come to terms with a situation were civil strife is not only positive but even desirable and inevitable
Jews are natural anarchists, we don’t like being controlled and manipulated. I know of no Jew who doesn’t think he is smarter than everybody else and who believes he is right and the rest of the world wrong. It’s part of our ethnic and cultural DNA. These cultural traits have been our ultimate strengths as well as weaknesses. No non Jew will ever understand Jews unless they have some insight in our inbred dichotomy of goals and purpose.
Yes Felix I do support up to a point anarchy over corrupt order, I do support anarchy over abridgment of individual rights. I do not like governments, a lot of restrictive laws. Intrusions by the state in my personal and in many cases collective prerogatives and privacy. I have faith in most human beings that given the opportunity and the proper information and incentives that 9 times out of ten will make the best choices for themselves.
Jews never had a significant triumph throughout our entire history. Military victories amounted to survival, such as when Egyptian chariots drown in Red Sea, Maccabees defied Antiochus’ attempt to eliminate Judaism, or in the 1967. Jews survived miraculously while other nations perished. Jewish nation lacks riches; in our time, Muslims, not us got oil. Jews subsisted in poverty on the barren hills of Judea, in Rome where Martial and Juvenal made fun of our beggars, and in the Eastern European ghettos. God doesn’t need another arrogant victorious tribe like Romans or vainly rich bastards like the oil Arabs. Jews were promised neither power nor riches, but the status of priestly nation. Jewish wars, therefore, fall into three types: physical survival (with Egypt in 1446 B.C.E. and 1973 C.E.), spiritual survival at the risk to physical existence (Maccabees, bar Kochba – both in response to restrictions imposed on Judaism), and the final messianic war. When Jews turn from the path of Judaism, they are exterminated: corrupt and sectarianism Jews in 70, assimilated Alexandrian Jews in 117, Jews who forgot human dignity and the will to fight – in the twentieth century. Reform “Judaism” spiritually annihilates scores of assimilated Jews. Time and again, the nation is purified and turned back on the track. That’s about all the Jews were promised.
It is my belief that Judaism can be summed up in two rules: love God and do not harm your neighbors; the rest is interpretation. The Torah is practical; it doesn’t attempt to change human mentality. It would be wrong to do otherwise. Mentality is a trait just like hands or legs; it is a product of evolution, proved efficient by trial and error.
Who could find fault with the commandments? They are as sensible today as three thousand years ago. In practical terms, the commandments create a perfectly balanced liberal society whose members respect each other and tolerate enemies, value life and rush to help when needed, and don’t trespass the boundaries of morality. A legal system so perfectly thought-out is not a product of nomads or cavemen
Comment by yamit82 — April 14, 2008 @ 6:32 pm
It is not a matter of looking at a few scenarios before throwing in the towel (Yamit)
Then thinking of chaos with no strategy whatsoever.
It is more a matter of making an assessment of what is happening in the world as a whole, and what is happening specifically to the Jewish Homeland. In this taking into account the dangers to Israel and to Jews. To work out who are the enemies of the Jews. To work out a correct stategy in a concrete manner. A strategy can entail also holding the fort, defence at a particular point, as well as attack.
First thing to understand is that there are a coalition of enemies ranged against Israel some outside some inside.
Second is to consciously draw lessons from destruction of Yugoslavia and keep that in mind. On that never forget the enemies are very powerful, Yugoslavia was wiped off the map in our recent living memory, and in this do not minimise the power of the Media, and the way the Media works with demands of Imperialism at every particular stage of the crissi of Imperialism, so that today with turning of the screw and collapse of credit means that we may see concentration camps in America not for Muslims (that is the cover) but for American oppositionists.
Influence of Soviet Russia Stalinists of 60s has created a Jew hating entity inside Israel, and one which takes side of enemy, the enemy being the Arabs of the Arab League, under cover of the “oppressed Arab Palestinians”. Also influence of social democracy (Labourism) in this.
Role of US Imperialism in world today along with German, British Imperialisms etc.
Role of Judaism. A noble religion with good customs and traditions. But a religion, not a revolutionary theory of the modern times, to meet and defeat these enemies. Example NRP inability to deal with Sharon’s exit from Gaza. They huffed and puffed but could bdo nothing. Jews in Israel know all this. They are far more sophisticated than Yamit and the sunstart bloke makes believe…they expect no miracles. They are hard headed and totally political, in tune with the modern world, are reading Olmert and co and the polls show this. This is a truly strong, revolutionary and nationalist people.
Crisis of leadership…Expressed in Yamit892 above. I ask him specifcally how to deal with the fact that enemy (Olmert) has got THE STATE POWER IN HIS HANDS and he does not focus on this. Cannot. It is an issue only to be answered by my tradition which is the tradition of revolutionary socialism carried on only by Leon Trotsky in conflict tio the death with Stalinism.
HOW TO TAKE THE POWER OF THE STATE OUT OF THE HANDS OF THE TREACHEROUS ISRAELI RULING CLASS OF OLMERT.
What do you guys propose! How to go forward concretely?
What to replace Olmert with? With whom and what leaders? On what political programme.
Such as
1. impending threat of Iran bomb
2. Interference of US in Jewish affairs
3. Bankruptcy of US Jewish organizations…not the American Jews though…a different thing entirely
4. talks with the enemy beiong led by the nose by Rice and Bush into a trap
5. the Fifth Column of Jews and of Hostile Arabs inside Israel
as Israel is at war6.
6. defence of Israel from hamas shelling
7. defence of Northern Israel from Hizbullah
8. danger from Egypt and Saudis due to their heavy arming by US Imperialism
9. The Iraq War of the US NeoCons supported by US Jewish leaders, but not the Israelis, has created open land path of Iran to borders of Israel
10. On outside and inside the role of the modern fascist Fake “Left”.
11. Is a theocracy the answer
12. or a nation where antisemitism in any form is outlawed (to give Jews the freedom of expression they need)
First and foremost there must be a discussion on these issues. Not an academic discussion but on issue of state power in Israel.
Whoever has got control of state in Israel is in a commanding position. eg first thing to do is solve issue of Fifth Column in Israel. Position of Arabs. Either they fight in Israeli Army and have no vote to Knessset or they are not loyal. Only Jews have vote to Knesset. Israel is a refuge and must be only place on earth where Jews have TOTAL CONTROL AND POWER. Position of Jewish traitors like Hass…must leave the country asap.
Israel must have a govt in control of state power which uses that state power to prepare for inevitable war.
Using that state power organize a new diplomatic service.
Ted, You agree with this? You dont agree? Please say. If you do take steps to get a discussion underway.
Comment by Felix Quigley — April 15, 2008 @ 6:38 am
Ted you write
That is correct. The mighty machine is the actual state itself. This is the Israeli state in which control is in the hands of the Israeli ruling capitalist class. This is the class which took the power into its hands in 1948.
A pivotal moment was the luring into a trap of the Revisionists led by Jabotinsky and the Atalena Affair which was part of that, in which the troops of that class led by Ben Gurion fired on the Revisionists as they swam to the shore. The same political tendency used the issue of Dir Yassin to plant a massacre on the Revisionists which they did not commit, a total fabrication, and in any case their troops were present at Dir Yassin as well.
Having taken power into their hands they have never let it go.
Somebody once quipped on this issue, if a class bothers to take the power then very seldom do they surrender it without a struggle.
Why are these things, with their Marxist undertones, so difficult for Jews like you Ted to grasp. You see, it is not accidental that you used the word “machine” while I used “state”.
Why is it so difficult for you to read up on the vital studies ont he state made by the great Marxists, of whom Stalin was not one.
Same reason I suppose that Yamit82 is prejudiced against gays. Prejudice is a horrible thing.
I find Yamit82’s references to Jewish history, some may be real some myth, interesting and it is vital to Jewish nationalist consciousness. BUT IT DOES NOT EQUIP ONE TO DEAL WITH FASCISM AND IMPERIALISM.
Ted in the above you refer to this situation where Olmert rules by means of his “machine”, and without the support of the majority of Jews.
Yet Jews find it very hard to stop him.
You say more on this later. I hope so.That is the discussion which has to urgently take place.
I am promoting and mirroring this discussion all the time on 4international.
Comment by Felix Quigley — April 15, 2008 @ 9:26 am
I believe that the power of the state has got to be wrested away from the present Government. While I support Olmert, and the Government, in any action it takes to defend Israel, yet the danger they pose for Israel is acute.
This was shown in this latest from IsraelNationalNews:
The first action which a new government must take is to clear out the Fifth Column from Israel. Israel is a country at war and no country at war can possibly fight with a Fifth Column in its midst.
It is extremely spirit sapping to Israelis to have to put up with this.
Livni says that this proves that Israel is a democracy, she means that Israel allows Tibi to call Israel an apartheid state, but it does not prove this at all. It proves that under Livni Israel has no respect for itself.
Tibi is there, as is Hass and Levy and the whole Haaretz organization, because it and they are protected by the present Israeli state machine.
The immediate step is that this Fifth Column, whether Arab or Jews like Hass, must be expelled, that is sent to another country. In the case of Tibi it could be Egypt, in the case of Hass perhaps some European country. But to have such snakes inside Israel, while Israel is IN a war, that has to stop.
Comment by Felix Quigley — April 15, 2008 @ 10:46 am
TED WROTE TO FELIX: “I agree with Felix that we are up against a mighty machine that doesn’t have support of the people. I said as much in my article. Nothing will change without a total overhaul. So far it has been beyond our grasp. More on this later.”
Response:
The Remnant of Israel
Ro 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! a I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, b from the tribe of Benjamin. c
Ro 11:2 God did not reject his people, d whom he foreknew. e Don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel:
Ro 11:3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me” 67 ? f
Ro 11:4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 68 g
Ro 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant h chosen by grace. i
Ro 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; j if it were, grace would no longer be grace. 69
Ro 11:7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, k but the elect did. The others were hardened, l
Comment by sunstartmf33 — April 15, 2008 @ 11:02 am
PM’s daughter protests Gaza killings
Dana Olmert takes part in left-wing demonstration outside army chief’s house; protesters call Halutz ‘murderer,’ declare ‘intifada shall prevail.’ Meanwhile, human rights groups send letter to PM, defense minister, calling on them to stop war crimes in territories
Avi Cohen
Published: 06.10.06, 21:07 / Israel News
Some 200 left-wing activists marched outside the house of IDF Chief of Staff Dan Halutz at the Tzahala neighborhood in Tel Aviv Saturday evening, to protest the killing of civilians in Gaza on Friday.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3261125,00.html
Yamit 82 - this is just the beginning of Olmert’s gay daughter!
As MAYOR OF JERUSALEM, Olmert gave approval of a gay parade because of his own daughter’s request! This is another reason why Olmert is a Manasseh and not a King David!
Comment by sunstartmf33 — April 15, 2008 @ 11:23 am
Felix,
I like your website!
Comment by sunstartmf33 — April 15, 2008 @ 11:27 am
Felix
You keep slamming me.
The worse thing is you mischaracterize my position most times. I understand what I have to understand.
Also you have taken to slamming me personally on your site. I have declined to “cry foul” because I saw no purpose in it. I just stayed away from your site.
I was particularly irked by your misrepresenting of my position on Serbia. As you know Israpundit spent a great of time learning about Serbia and came to embrace your position as to who was at fault. Yet you slammed me for not taking your stand on Leiberman and Lantos.
I will not engage with you when you misrepresent me and slam me. I welcome any criticism of my positions here without ad hominen attacks. On the other hand I do not intend to take issue with your positions because I prefer to spend my time on mine.
If the two coincide, great.
Comment by Ted Belman — April 16, 2008 @ 3:09 am
Ted
Let me unslam you then!
Personally like you I do not want any more videos made of Jewish people carrying their few belongings walking along lonely streets escorted by Fascists. I am Irish, I have joined the Jewish cause.
This is a political discussion and I have in this discussion the right to attack other political positions. I am not attacking people on a personal basis. I do not think I have ever done that. I am attacking the politics, not the person. The`person may be a generous, kind and wonderful being. But it is their political positions towards the issues concerning the present that I am interested in.
Almost all of the above that you write I am at odds with:
Especially this:
“I understand what I have to understand.”
There you are making a very big mistake. This is not a personal thing involving you as an individual.
The reality is outside of us. It is this reality which has to be understood. The saying, I understand what I have to understand is subjective.
The reality is what Francisco Gil White writes, the Jewish people are walking towards a Holocaust.
That is the meaning of Yugoslavia. It is not in the slightest a matter of you “embracing your position as to who was at fault”.
Essentially what does it matter who was at fault. It was never a matter of finding out who were the “good guys”!!!What matters is that the Fascists of Croatia, the Islamists of Bosnia and the gangsters of the KLA, ASSISTED BY LIEBERMAN, MCCAIN AND THE US GOVERNMENT won.
And they really did win.
What matters is that if you apply that lesson to Israel then the fate of the Jews is sealed, unless the lessons can be learned and brought into the struggle to save Israel.
I do not take umbrage at attacks on my own political position. The only thing I cannot have time for, because time is short, is when political discussion is evaded.
Ted, I really thought you were a bigger man than this. Either open up the discussion, meet the many points I make above, or else find yourself a hole somewhere and crawl in and hide.
Comment by Felix Quigley — April 16, 2008 @ 6:38 am
I knew when I was saying “I understand what I have to understand.” I would be called on it and rightly so. I was just too much in a hurry to be more explicit.
I have never had a problem with my positions being challenged. I am not going to take the time to review the things said about me and Israpundit on your site that I took offense to.
It is true that I don’t see things as dire as you and Francisco do. I do not think a premeditated holocaust is around the corner at least not so far as the US government is concerned or even the elites. I know this frustrates and irks the two of you that I haven’t gone far enough in educating my readers to the danger. It is also fair to chastise me for that from your perspective. But keep in mind that you can’t expect me to warn Jews about an impending holocaust if I haven’t come to that conclusion. At best you should keep trying to convince me.
Whether you are right or whether its just a matter of the world and the GoI wanting Israel to undo the “occupation” we must work toward preventing another retreat. That’s where my6 efforts are focussed.
Comment by Ted Belman — April 16, 2008 @ 7:35 am
Ted
Leon Trotsky wrote in a letter to American friends following the Crystal Night in Germany (writing on 22 December, 1938)
Writing then Trotsky did not know about Death Camps, about the Wannsee Conference, about poison gas etc. But he was right. Why and how was he right? How did he get it so right?
The only reason…because he had made a deep study of capitalism in crisis, and a deep study of the modern phenomenon of Fascism.
That is why we are all so interested in Yugoslavia today. Why we follow the antisemitism of Islam so closely.
With Olmert and Livni leading, with US prompting Israel into a trap, Jews can be walking again into a Holocaust.
It does not have to be like before.
Hence read this article which I published just yesterday
http://4international.wordpress.com/2008/04/15/how-can-israel-be-saved4/
In this case only the Israeli state machine, Mossad and the IDF, as well as the decision made by Livni and Olmert to act, and also the decision of the US Government to collaborate (it seems from ther evidence to me anyhow), which saved millions of Jews from horrible death.
But it only takes one such action by the Antisemites to be successful.
The US Imperialists may not be out to destroy Israel. But they may lead Israel there.
For example with a Palestine state on the border, and with Iran armed with Nuclear, even with just the threat, how many young professionals would live in Israel in those conditions?
It would be the destruction of Israel anyway.
The main point I make about Yugoslavia is that the Serbs were defeated by a combination of Imperialism with various types of Fascism and Gangsters.
No use in moaning (for Serbs) about it afterwards. They were defeated. The real question for Jews to ask, they must ask!, is why?
In that light, who cares whether you Ted Belman supported the Serbs! Nobody!
Ask instead why were they defeated and you do some good…for the Jews also.
Comment by Felix Quigley — April 16, 2008 @ 8:30 am
SUNSTAR SPEAKS TO CATHOLIC POPE BENEDICT ARNOLD II
Dear Pope Benedict Traitor II,
The Holy Bible, New International Version. Jer 6:13.
Jer 6:13 “From the least to the greatest, all v are greedy for gain; w prophets and priests alike, all practice deceit. x
Jer 6:14 They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. ‘Peace, peace,’ they say, when there is no peace. y
Today, we are inviting Hamas, Hizbollah, & the Iranian President to Vatican City and allow them to build a mosque right in the middle of Vatican City to establish an everlasting peace and tolerance. From now on, the Pope will bow with the Islamic Waqf in Vatican City and prostrate himself to Allah as god. As surely the Jewish People are not allowed by the Islamic Waqf to pray on the Temple Mount; carry a Bible on the Temple Mount; or build a Third Jewish Temple on the Temple Mount; so will the Vatican not be allowed to pray in Vatican City; not be allowed to carry a Bible in Vatican City; or sit on a throne in Vatican City, as it is against Islamic law to prostrate to other gods outside of Allah.
Well, WHY NOT? Your idea of peace is to hand Jerusalem and the Land of Israel over to the terrorist Palestinian state; to Hamas; to Hizbollah; to Iran!
I would say to the Catholic POOP:
The LAND OF ISRAEL BELONGS TO THE GOD OF ISRAEL and to nobody else. The God of Israel has defined Israel’s borders recorded in the Torah. The Land of Israel DOES NOT BELONG TO THE VATICAN!
As surely the Vatican would not build a mosque at Vatican City Headquarters, why should the Pope and the Nations demand that Israel share their Holy City, Jerusalem, with Islamic terrorists?
And what does CATHOLICISM have to do with Christianity or the PEACE OF JESUS CHRIST? Absolutely NOTHING! Catholicism is not Christianity nor does Catholicism follow the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The rituals, rules, and regulations, which the DICTATOR POPE enforces upon his own church is OPPRESSION!
How can the POPE SPEAK OF FREEDOM when he himself is a slave? He is NOT the Holy Father – only the God of Israel is the Holy Father! The Vatican has blasphemed the God of Israel by preaching religious pluralism – which led historically to the destruction of Israel and has NOT FREED the world.
I would say to the Catholic Church: Get rid of all Church buildings and hand them over to Muslims and then talk of peace! PEACE! PEACE! THEY SAY! WHEN THERE IS NO PEACE! Unholy ‘father’ Jesus said, “Don’t call anyone on earth ‘FATHER’ for we have one father and he is in Heaven,’ yet you have the arrogance to allow yourself to sit in God’s Seat. You are NOT the Prince Of Peace – that title belongs to the God of Israel alone!
Therefore, let the world shun the Catholic Pope.
To the CATHOLIC POPE I SAY: LEAVE GOD’S PEOPLE ISRAEL ALONE! Go back home in your poop mobile!
Comment by sunstartmf33 — April 16, 2008 @ 10:35 am
[...] http://www.israpundit.com/2008/?p=733#comments [...]
Pingback by HOW ISRAEL CAN BE SAVED…5 (FINAL PART) « 4international — April 16, 2008 @ 10:46 am
Sunstartmf33 writes: And what does CATHOLICISM have to do with Christianity or the PEACE OF JESUS CHRIST? Absolutely NOTHING! Catholicism is not Christianity nor does Catholicism follow the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The rituals, rules, and regulations, which the DICTATOR POPE enforces upon his own church is OPPRESSION!
Yes, Catholics are not Christians - according to Evangelicals.
And to many Orthodox Jews, members of reform congregations are not practising authentic Judaism
And for Sunnis, Shiites are heretical and phoney Moslems.
And most Protestants have little use for the polygamous Mormons, or those weird Jehovah witnesses.
And the Roman Catholics just can’t stomach those of the Eastern orthodox faith.
And The beat goes on, and you know what? The real demon, and the real Satan is all those organized religions that are claiming that they have the monopoly on truth and virtue and everyone else be dammed.
To a visiting Martian , viewing all these competing interests and machinations, the only conclusion to be arrived at is, this is the stuff of absolute farce.
I say, A plague on all your houses.
Comment by h peskin — April 18, 2008 @ 9:43 pm
Addendum To my last post.
Have a sneaking suspicion that if G-d should by some chance arrive on earth, and see what is going on here in the religious realm, He would more likely become an atheist.
Just a thought .
Comment by h peskin — April 18, 2008 @ 9:51 pm