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A Solution devoutly to be wished
Comments
1
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Boris E.
said:
Although intelligent and well laid out, the premise of your argument that there is an attainable (acceptable to Israel) solution based on a Sharon-Bush plan (real or imaginary) also represents its weakness. From the perspective of most of the world (inclusive of Eurabia), the reversal of the “error” of Israel’s existence is seen as a valid solution as well. As painful as this may be to consider, just surviving as a sovereign Jewish state, while navigating through the existential challenges in the ongoing war with Islamic fascism, until history turns the corner, at which point oil (and Israel) diminishes in significance and China looms as the next global challenge, may be the best we can realistically hope for.
Posted by: Boris E. on December 13, 2004 01:52 PM
2
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Akiva
said:
These 'people' blow up border stations used by only their people, they slip in children with bombs, they murder U.S. diplomats there only to help them, they slaughter children, paint their hands in the blood of their victims and dance with the body parts.
You can't give them what they want because they want every inch, every town, every street, every house, every farm, they want Tel Aviv, Haifa, Safed, and Jerusalem. They're not hiding it, they're saying it clearly every single time they speak. They never accept part if it takes any compromise (though they'll take what is given for free and not do their part even when promised).
The situation does indeed require a reappraisal. Wake up, constant defense, taking the blows, compromising and backing down has yet to achieve any success. Better a live pariah than a dead accepted member of nations.
"the occupation is a drain on Israel economically and emotionally" Better to lock the doors and cower in fear every time you go to the market? Dodge the Katuysha's from the north, the mortors from the south, and the suicide bombers next door. Doesn't work my friend.
Tehillim 121 - 1. Shir LaMaalot. I will lift up my eyes to the mountains. From where does my help come? My help comes from the Lord, who made heaven and earth! He will not let your foot be moved; he who watches you will not slumber! Behold, he who watches Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep! The Lord is your keeper; the Lord is your shade upon your right hand! The sun shall not strike you by day, nor the moon by night! The Lord shall preserve you from all evil; he shall preserve your soul! The Lord shall preserve your going out and your coming in from this time forth, and for evermore!
Posted by: Akiva on December 13, 2004 02:07 PM
3
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Joseph Alexander Norland
said:
While admitting the problematic situation, Ted paints an optimistic picture, where "There will be no Palestinian state unless and until this war on terror succeeds".
What are the facts to substantiate this claim?
The US, as I have shown numerous times, is far from appreciating its one ally and soul-mate in democracy. Even Wolfowitz and Feith -- yes, the very Douglas Feith of "Mandate for Israel" fame -- have turned their backs on Israel and are forcing her into submission. Far from "you're either with us or with the terrorists", Bush is rewarding the murderers of his officials with US$20 million. Some war on terror, that is.
But Ted's main quest for an alternative is more than valid. And in fact, there are several solutions. Benjamin Netanyahu, before he capitulated, authored "Durable Peace" in which he presented the autonomy solution (which I favour, by the way). Benny Alon's plan, which Ted mentions, is another solution. But for these to be discussed, certain conditions must be met:
1. The people of Israel, their leaders and Israel's supporters must accept with brain and heart alike, that Israel's claim to the Land of Israel is the valid one, and based on international law. That is what Feith's work, "A mandate for Israel" is all about.
2. Israel must accept that she will have no peace if another Arab terrorist state is created next door, on the Land of Israel. This possibility must be rejected vociferously and absolutely.
3. Israel must do what LGF, ZOA, AFSI, GIA and even IsraPundit are doing: engage in a vigorous, relentless PR campaign. Paramount among Israel's arguments should be this: she is fighting the anti-terror war for all of us, and should she fail, we are next. It is not I who invented "after Saturday comes Sunday" - it was the terrorists in Yesha who made that clear, just as their teacher Adolf made his plan clear in Mein Kampf.
These are the minimal requirements, and even these are not easy to fulfill. But you gotta start somewhere!
And by the way, the statement, "Without hesitation Sharon agreed to the Roadmap suggesting he was one of the architects of it" is factually incorrect. Israel registered its 14 objections, but forgot to remind the world of these objections at every turn.
I fear for Israel's fate. The fire in her belly seems to have disappeared, and that is no way to survive in a neighbourhood such as the Middle East - and with no oil to boot.
Posted by: Joseph Alexander Norland on December 13, 2004 03:32 PM
4
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Ted
said:
To Joseph
Thanks for your thoughtful comments. It was not Sharon that demanded the 14 reservations. I believe that they were imposed by his cabinet and he would have gone along without them. In any event the US only said they would take them into consideration and the Roadmap thus was approved.
Israel isn't get much additional land out of this deal or for that matter more secure borders. The main quid pro quo is the end of terror and peace agreements with all its neighbours. Without that there shouldn't be a deal.
Posted by: Ted on December 13, 2004 03:48 PM
5
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Ted
said:
Joseph even the autonomy you speak of doesn't solve anything and the Arabs won't accept it. So why is that an attainable solution?
Posted by: Ted on December 13, 2004 03:51 PM
6
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benjamin
said:
A very brave and well thought out post, Ted. Barring a few reservations, I agree with you completely.
Posted by: benjamin on December 13, 2004 04:26 PM
7
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Tamar
said:
Ted notes that....."It was not Sharon that demanded the 14 reservations. I believe that they were imposed by his cabinet and he would have gone along without them. In any event the US only said they would take them into consideration and the Roadmap thus was approved."
Those "reservations" were compiled to sell the Aqaba Summit (along with the release of over 1,000 bloodthirsty terrorists from our prisons) to the Israeli peasantry.
THE SITUATION
CHEMI SHALEV June 5th 2003
AQABA, Jordan — In the end, President Bush could not have hoped for more. He got Ariel Sharon and Mahmoud Abbas to say as much as either man could permit himself to say. Sharon gave his strongest-ever endorsement of Palestinian statehood and pledged to start immediately dismantling illegal settlement outposts. Abbas issued his bluntest denunciation yet of Palestinian violence and pledged an end to what he called the "armed intifada."
Sharon was preparing even before he left Aqaba for the political trouble he is expected to face as removal of settlement outposts begins. Protests are expected mainly from settlers themselves, but not from their patrons in the Cabinet, who have shown no inclination to leave the coalition despite Sharon's sudden turn toward moderation.
American observers were struck by the extent of Sharon's concessions here, particularly his acknowledgement of "the importance of territorial contiguity in the West Bank for a viable Palestinian state." Contiguity, the Americans said, carries an implicit pledge to dismantle existing settlements, something Sharon has resisted offering up to now.
http://www.forward.com/issues/2003/03.06.06/news2.html
Eighteen months on.....and we can clearly see the folly (or treachery!) of the "Road Map"
For your photo collection....icks!
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2003/641/home12.jpg
Posted by: Tamar on December 13, 2004 05:50 PM
8
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BobW
said:
Solutions cannot evolve from the "Right" because the divisions are not those that mirror the old Jacobian political clubs.
Run some litmus tests. It's workable to internationalize Jerusalem. This has support from secular Israel. Abrogate the Gaza withdrawal plans. This has support from Jewish Israel.
There is indeed a permanent solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict. It does, however, yield another conflict; a secular Israel seeks to obliterate a Jewish Israel. This must be accepted as to what's going on.
The Jews of Israel were betray by segments of the Jewish diaspora.
Note that a Jewish Israel has strong - and substantial - support from the "Christian Right" here in the States. The Arabs are hated here. Once the pipeline from Khzakistan to Turkey is operational, watch the Arabs revert to scorpions and sandflies. However, for us, we are still at square one; California on the eastern med or a Jewish Israel?
Kol tuv,
BobW
Posted by: BobW on December 14, 2004 05:36 AM
A Solution devoutly to be wished
By Ted Belman
I am a pragmatist and not an ideologue. As such I want what is good and attainable for Israel.
I find fault with the Right in Israel because they offer no attainable solution that would enable Israel to keep all of Judea, Sumaria and Gaza but argue for the status quo none the less. They argue that
While all these arguments are valid they don’t constitute a solution. As we know, not all “solutions” are solutions. Just look at the Oslo Accords. So, not any solution will do.Nevertheless for the Right to be credible it must
They have failed to do either.
While a few plans have been put forward such as the Benny Elon Plan or transfer no one would bet money on any of them getting Israel’s acceptance let alone the world’s.
The only way for time to be in Israel’s favour is if something unforeseen happens that make it so. But that would require Israel to cross its fingers and hope for luck or a miracle.
I start with the premise that Israel needs a solution. Why so? Very simple, the occupation is a drain on Israel economically and emotionally. It saps Israel’s energy that would be better spent in productive work. It has lead to increased anti-Semitism worldwide. It has led to calls for boycotts and disinvestments. It prevents Israel from having normal relations with the EU. Israel has become a pariah state. Israel desperately needs peace but not peace at any price. That would not be solution.
Sharon and Bush have cooked up such a solution.
Due to 9/11/01 Bush undertook to defeat the terrorists and those that support them. This required a reappraisal of how the US should deal with the Arabs generally and the Palestinians specifically. Then in January of 2002, Palestinians were caught red handed with the discovery of the Karine “A” ship loaded with armaments and Arafat lied to Bush about his involvement. Bush decided not to deal with him again and stuck to his word. A few months later the Palestinians perpetrated a number of horrendous suicide bombings in Israel. Israel had to develop a plan, not just to protect itself but also to find a solution.
During the rest of the year, the Israelis travelled often to the US to work out a mutual plan. The details of that plan have been emerging ever since.
The plan was designed to not only win the war on terror with all that implied for the regimes that support terror but to also find a permanent solution to the Arab Israeli conflict.
Pursuant to this plan, the US invaded Iraq in the spring of 2003 and then released the Roadmap. Without hesitation Sharon agreed to the Roadmap suggesting he was one of the architects of it. Sharon had agreed therefore with a settlement freeze, the removal of “illegal” outposts and the creation of a Palestinian state. In return, Bush had to deliver on two promises namely getting all Arab countries to make real peace with Israel and forcing the Palestinians to give up on terror and incitement. All this was reflected in the Roadmap.
When Bush was planning his bold moves on the ME, he needed to protect his flank. He needed to get Israel’s agreement on the broad outlines of a settlement so that his end game would be clearer. For Sharon, he needed to know his concessions would bring peace.
The Roadmap proved to be a rocky road and went nowhere after the initially ceremonies in Aqaba in June of 2003. Although the Roadmap was not proceeded with it was constantly reaffirmed as the way to go. The Arabs have done nothing to meet their obligations and Israel has yet to abandon any settlements. Yet much is happening. to further it.
Sharon is building the fence along demographic lines. The US is micro-managing the location of the fence because they both accept that it will be, by and large, the final border. A few issues have yet to be ironed out such as the fate of Ariel and Jerusalem. I believe that ultimately Jerusalem will be divided so that Israel will not have to give citizenship to the 300,000 Arabs that live there. This is why Sharon is allowing them to vote in the upcoming Palestinian elections.
He also is fighting tenaciously to bring about his Disengagement Plan. In this regard, Bush did his part by making demographics the centrepiece of the new partition plan and ruling out the “right of return”.
Bush is also proceeding to get the Arab world to come to terms with Israel. Syria has been told to get out of Lebanon. Lebanon will be assisted to take back its country and disarm Hezbollah. Easier said then done. We see how much havoc the terrorists can wreak in Iraq and Israel. Lebanon will be no easier. Especially because Hezbollah is Iran’s proxy and Iran will do everything it can to keep the US busy in Iraq and Lebanon.
Syria and Israel are now negotiating a settlement where Israel keeps part of the Golan. Egypt is presently showing signs of becoming part of the solution and not the problem. Even Iraq has also made moves in the direction of normal relations with Israel. So has Libya and Pakistan.
To make this plan work it is necessary for the terrorists to be destroyed in Iraq, Lebanon and Yesha. This will take great resolve on the part of Sharon and Bush. I predict that the terrorists won’t go silently into the night but will put up stiff resistance. But Sharon and Bush will do whatever it takes to destroy them.
There will be no Palestinian state unless and until this war on terror succeeds.
Posted by Ted Belman at December 13, 2004 11:23 AM