1. Tiburon said:

So much for that, eh? Who'da guessed!~

2. BobW said:

Subject: Advanced Level Military Engineering At Israel's Ministry of Defense

Such a rapid pace of military engineering thought approximates a Blitzkrieg maneuver.

If only the MOD asked to borrow a couple of my books on the Great Wall of China, the brass would have learned of the tunneling weakness. Still, better late than never.

Also related to the Great Wall of China; ever since the Chinese invented gunpowder, a mortar can be used to kill and maim Israelis. There are some people in the diaspora who can explain this to the MOD. There are some Israelis who can, also.

There are political methods to confront the matter. The Government of Israel is not providing for the safety of its people. The Generals, disregarding my joking, are aware of this.

Kol tuv,

BobW

3. Larry Reisler said:

I agree that fences are not impregnable, but but I totally disagree with the gist of these statements. Though it should not be viewed as a panacea, the fact is that many Israeli lives have been saved by this fence and that it increases the investment in time and resources that the terrorists have to make in order to attack. That saves lives on our side, and makes terrorism much less rewarding on their side.

What is inexcusable is the tactical error made by the commanders in Gaza. If they knew a tunneling operation was going on, they needed to move that base. Having large immobile bases is a definite drawback. (ironically, Sharon made the same argument with regards to the Bar Lev line on the canal border in 1973 according to his autobiography).

4. TheLoneCabbage said:

Fences/Locks are for honest people.

The purpose of a lock is NOT to stop a theif, it is to make the target more difficult and encourage the theif to go onto a softer target.

These arabs are itching to die as suicide bombers, they are highly motivated. And it's not like their going to find another target. One of the greatest failures of the Israeli intelegence structure was not turnning the PLO and Hamas and all the other little terrorist, more, against eachother.

At best it will slow them down. Force them through limited areas of vulnerability. If we are smart we will create and allow those areas of weakness so we "know" where the next terrorists will be comming though, and we cant wait for them there.

Then again the next great Israeli invention may be an ultrsound device that causes tunnels to colapse.

5. Tiburon said:

TheLoneCabbage: - Yes, or like those wonderful little robotic vacuum cleaners for sale at Price Club/Costco and invented by Israelis (Raphael?)...we could perhaps send little 'hunters' a la "Minority Report" to do the job. And yes, for the interim, the 'Fence' forces, generally, a 'direction of attack' - and much secures certain extremely vulnerable (poorly defensible) 'green line' communities from random attacks.

But both you and Larry Reisler are falling into the 'common wisdom' language: - "Their side", and "Our side"... This certainly reinforces one of the worst fears of the Fence opponents, that the Fence route is a prelude to the ACTUAL border, without negotiation or even one indication of change in the rejectionist stance of the palis, from any quarter.

This then, constitutes 'retreat under fire' if it ends this way, at the militarily indefensible '48 lines, 9 miles to the sea, etc etc. Add to this the very real possibility that leftist/laborite elements in the government might propel a withdrawal of IDF support for Jews beyond the Fence, and we have a recipe for more death and destruction, 'on all sides'.

Look, one doesn't have to assume a 'maximalist' position to refuse to employ the language of retreat and appeasement. The Fence, fine...it's an interim strategy - but what actually remains on the table is ALL of Yesha - and that in absence of a 'sea-change' in pali politics, we may still arrive at the place where we say - "That's IT. We're Finishing this circus. By majority Will this Land is Ours" Let's not presuppose the outcomes, through terminology. I think all Jews/Israelis can do this, regardless of their position on the political spectrum (and would, were we not edging towards 'civil war')

In the end, as Elrond says in LOTR: - 'You will UNITE, or you will Die!'

6. Eye Doc said:

I guess I don't understand the IDF's negativity. If the fence in Gaza works, despite the obvious fact that you can tunnel under it, than why such negativity about the West Bank fence?

7. Tiburon said:

Eye Doc: - "...the fence in Gaza works,..." (!) 5000 mortar rounds and rockets, both in and out of the Gush, since the start of the Oslo War. If this is "work(ing)" I'd hate to see something that's broke... :-( (and keep in mind the Fence is in rifle range of the Ben Gurion flypaths...right?)

It's got it's uses, Eye Doc (though as I said long ago, just WHO got the untendered contracts for this $1 M/km. work, on the Israeli side?? [we know who got 'em on the pali side...he's in the news! - FOLLOW THE MONEY!], just askin'), but if it is allowed to become the border, we're screwed. I for one will take a boat from Pireaus.