1. Tiburon said:

(quote from article)
"When Knesset Speaker Reuven Rivlin declared that what governs Israel is not the rule of law but a “gang that makes the law,” he was alluding primarily to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Supreme Court President Aharon Barak, the high priest of a self-perpetuating oligarchy denounced as such by eminent Israelis across the political spectrum. Democracy indeed!"

by Bork, also, for that matter...: -

Judge Bork on High Court
Judge Robert Bork is one of the greatest legal minds in the United States. Here is what he says about Israel’s Supreme Court:
October 6, 2003
Robert Bork is a distinguished jurist who was nominated to the Supreme Court by Ronald Reagan in 1987. He has also served as Solicitor General and has been a Distinguished Professor at Yale University. He is now a Senior Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and he has written a book on judicial activism called, Coercing Virtue: The Worldwide Rule of Judges.
He recently appeared on The 700 Club to talk with Pat Robertson about the issue.
Robert Bork:

"Israel must have the most activist, and from my point of view, the worst court in the Western world. They have developed an intrusive, pervasive constitutional law without really having a Constitution. Now that's hard to do, but they've managed it and they have managed to get themselves in a position where they, in effect, control the membership of their own court. They've done a variety of things -- there's so many, I list a lot of them in the book, but there's too many to list here." (from Israpundit archives)

2. benjamin said:

I accept Professor Eidelberg's challenge. Anytime he wants to debate (via email, unless he wants to come to Israel for the privelege) I'm ready.

As for the orange stars, my professor - a daughter of Holocaust survivors who still bear the numbers tatooed on their arms - had it right: "l'kol davar yesh gvul" there is a limit to everything. This is a dispicable vulgarization of the Shoah and an insult to its survivors. Every single Israeli I've spoken to about it, right, left, religious and secular has been appalled by it. When are you people going to figure out that you do not represent the majority of Israelis or the Jewish people, but only the ravings of a fanatical minority?

3. Tamar said:

You have been warned!

Last Update: 23/12/2004 22:12
State Prosecution warns Chabad rabbis on recent comments
By Yuval Yoaz, Haaretz Correspondent

The State Prosecution on Thursday warned Chabad Rabbis Yekutiel Rapp and Dov Ber Halevy Wolpe that their recent statements may be bordering on criminal, cautioning them to avoid opening a criminal investigation.

IDF Maj. Gen.: Those who wear orange Star of David are Holocaust deniers

Gaza settlers to cease distributing orange Star of David to protest pullout after fierce criticism of campaign from the public.

Not a refusal to serve - a rupture
By Israel Harel

"Answer us, O Lord, answer us," hundreds of thousands of Jews pleaded yesterday on the fast of the Tenth of Tevet, "For we are in the midst of a great calamity."

4. Tamar said:

"I accept Professor Eidelberg's challenge. Anytime he wants to debate (via email, unless he wants to come to Israel for the privelege) I'm ready."

Benny.....Eidelberg's email is a NETVISION account.....sound's a bit Israeli doesn't it??

5. Tiburon said:

Umm, Benjamin? Professor Paul Eidelberg is actually just up the road from you, a little north... - Jerusalem? Where he's been living since he made Aliya well more than 20 years ago, giving up his US Air Force Officer pension on principal, and his US Passport, and from where, at various points in time, he's taught in Bar Ilan, given numberless seminars and lectures, met personally to give consultation with most of the Prime Ministers of Israel, written quite a number of books, and over 900 articles and position papers, and started a Foundation and a political party - all while sustaining a major presence in journals such as "Nativ", the Ariel Center for Policy Research (ACPR)[www.acpr.org.il] and a decade plus tenure for a weekly column in America's largest circulation weekly (1 million readers), the Jewish Press, and of course maintained his associations with Professors for a Strong Israel. Professor Rene Louis Beres considers him the world's leading political-scientific authority in Constitutional issues, bar none. Just by the way.

I've visited and browsed your blog sites, Benjamin. You write well, and can certainly 'turn a phrase' with the best of them - and I find your ideas...well, somewhat 'provocative' - It's pretty obvious you're highly educated and you exhibit discipline and precision in your argumentation.

Your links: -

www.antichomsky.blogspot.com

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15381

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15170

But, when you said: - "I accept Professor Eidelberg's challenge. Anytime he wants to debate (via email, unless he wants to come to Israel for the privelege) I'm ready.", I'm called to mind of that line in Ben Hur when they're betting on the race: - "Bravely spoken!" ;-)

I can't speak of whether the Professor's interest will be piqued, of course. Why don't you ask him directly?

Otherwise, Benjamin - I obviously cannot 'prove you wrong' regards "Every single Israeli I've spoken to about it, right, left, religious and secular has been appalled by it", but I surely CAN ask you to please legitimize, with source poll data or other means, your constant refrain, both here in comments and on your sites, that "(we) do not represent the majority of Israelis or the Jewish people, but only the ravings of a fanatical minority". Especially the "fanatical minority" part.

No rush.

6. benjamin said:

I don't know how good your Hebrew is, but the poll cited in this article indicates that 56% of the country supports the disengagement and 76% believe that it is forbidden for Israel soldiers to refuse orders to evacuate settlemnts. Thus, a clear majority rejects Eidelberg's psychotic belief that Ariel Sharon has betrayed them with his plan and an overwhelming majority reject his treasonous plans for resisting it.

http://news.nana.co.il/Article/?ArticleID=111727&sid=16

Of course, this is only one poll, I'll be happy to find more if you like, but they will all be along the same lines.

As I said: fanatical minority.

As for Eidelberg, give me his email address and I'll get in touch with him. Or feel free to give him mine: benjaminkerstein@hotmail.com

7. benjamin said:

Incidentally, thanks for the compliments. (I mean that seriously, please don't think I'm being sarcastic.)

8. Tiburon said:

Hi Benjamin. Well, the compliments were sincere, as far as they go...so, you're welcome! :-)

Now I'm not going to challenge the poll bias - for as you say, they're all 'generally' in this vein, and if 'slanted' poll to poll, won't move the numbers by more than 5 or 10 percent. But this is the whole point now, isn't it, Benjamin!?

I mean, do you ever stand back from your own positions and try to take a dispassionate overview, and gain a little perspective (as L-rd, we ALL need to do, from time to time)?
I mean, look at the numbers, Benjamin! 56% "for disengagement". So this means, roughly speaking, 46% "Against Disengagement", right? And this, to you, constitutes "a clear majority"? On an Existential Issue of THE COUNTRY'S BORDERS (!!), for keeryst's sake??

To paraphrase W. Churchill, "Some "fanatical", Some "minority"!"!

I mean this is what you are bringing to defend your position, Benjamin??? And don't start w/protesting that this remaining 46% umbrellas 'undecideds' and 'did not answers' - because sure as shootin' it also includes Israeli Arabs and non-Jews, right? On an Existential Question of the Forever Borders of the Jewish State!!!

You've just been 'hoisted on your own petard' and you are busy telling me how good the view is up there.

But let's review a little further here. By you, roughly half the people you meet in Israel are "fanatical", and in need of the 'tender mercies' of egalitarian democracy's machinations (and as IF the whole progress of this Expulsion Plan was REMOTELY conforming to even the watered-down and amoral norms of world 'democracy'...), and further, that 24% of the people you meet on the street are WILLING TO RISK BREAKDOWN OF THE PRIMARY BOND BETWEEN STATE AND MILITARY to see this travesty resisted, and they are all but 'benighted fools and knaves', or as you say: - "Treasonous".

It's positions like this, Benjamin - that led me to characterize your ideas as "dangerous" on other threads. If you are unable to stand back and recognize that what you are arguing for is a brutal Tyranny of the Majority (and barely that, even if so [when talking about Jewish Opinion, in THE JEWISH STATE!], at that); and that this is specifically what makes 'democracy the worst of all systems, except all the others', then I'm at a loss to how to find any common ground with you - though I accept you love and care for Israel and the Jewish People (in your...'way')

Add to this, that these poll numbers - as I've stipulated, roughly correct - are based on the opinions of a population systematically deprived of alternate (Jewish Nationalist) viewpoints in the Israeli Mass Media, for all intents and purposes since the Establishment of the State (setting aside the halcyon days of Begin's Likud, /sarcasm), and one gets a clear picture of the UNBELIEVABLE arrogance, tyrannical amorality/immorality, and yes, 'hubris' of the oligarchical 'gang of law' that is the GOI.

These "Israelis" shame Justice, and Jewish Ethics and Law, to the core.

As for my liberal use of 'caps lock', I like it, Benjamin. Deal with it.

The Professor, his free newsletter mailings, and contact info can be found on the Foundation Site. http://foundation1.org/wpblog-fdn/index.php

I'd really recommend though, that you take time to peruse the articles and position papers there (we've only managed to put up a fraction of his codex thus far), and here in Israpundit Archives, Benjamin - before 'leaping into the breach', whether publically or in private correspondence with him. He's pretty tolerant of all Jews, and a True Lover of Truth (and education!), but his time is precious - give him that much respect. You doubtless devour print and ideas as quick and quicker than many of us here, so it won't take you forever to do so.

He certainly changed my worldview when I first discovered him, 'lo these many years ago.

And as to 'public debate' - It's our hope that eventually, with G-d's Help through the Spring, we can successfully entreat the Professor to appear for live commentary debate with the serious and knowledgable, a couple of times a week, on the growing Foundation Site. We will see. Otherwise, why not go up to Jerusalem for one of his 'salon seminars', which he holds regularly?

All the best to you, Benjamin. I'm glad we're finding it possible to talk, whatever the outcome. I DON'T see you as part of the "fanatic majority" or "tyrannical oligarchy" - just a little 'misguided'. You know: - "Don't Crush That Dwarf, Hand Me The Pliers!" ;-)

9. Tiburon said:

Ooops! That should be "44%", right? Math never my 'strong point'. Gotta work on that, before old age sets in! :-D

10. benjamin said:

First,

"Don't Crush That Dwarf, Hand Me The Pliers!"

Explain please.

Second,

I think you prove my point. 56% in any democracy, let alone a contentious one like Israel is a clear majority. I would remind you that George Bush won the last election with slightly over 51%, and no one on this site (to my knowledge) has questioned the legitimacy or decisiveness of that victory. Furthermore, in a country as factional as Israel is, 56% on any issue is quite rare, which is why Sharon is moving forward with his plan, he knows he has popular momentum on his side.

You also ignore the much more important second figure: 76% against refusal to evacuate settlements. That is, an overwhelming (and even rarer) majority rejects the radical demands made on them by the likes of Eidelberg and his ilk.

It seems to me that you regard as legitimate only the facts that give succor to your ideology and ignore the rest. I doubt whether any percentage, however immense, could sway your convictions.

As for the tyranny of the majority, I would like to know why you regard the tyranny of a small minority, especially when it demands that the disenfranchised majority give their blood and treasure for its cause, as somehow preferable.

Incidentally, I have sent an email to Professor Eidelberg accepting his challenge. I await his response.

11. Tiburon said:

Benjamin. I'm going to repost this up top, and let some other folk contribute - I'm frankly running out of ideas here.

1) "in a country as factional as Israel" - Israel is "factional" simply because of a comically low electoral threshold and the "party system" of non-representative elected, giving single issue parties, i.e. a party of casino owners. Remotely focused national will and choice, consistent policy, is impossible with this system. The actual political lines are far more stark, and would be clearly seen so in a normal democracy with a sane threshold (and direct representation in the Knesset, and a non-plural ["plural", read: 'recipe for corruption'] Executive).

2) "It seems to me that you regard as legitimate only the facts that give succor to your ideology and ignore the rest." Ditto, you.

3) "I doubt whether any percentage, however immense, could sway your convictions" Two-thirds, or 66% of Jews alone, voting in a referendum (albeit obscene from a Jewish Law standpoint - the Land is NOT NEGOTIABLE, nor "ours" to 'give away'), would go a long way to shutting me up.

4) "he (Arik) knows he has popular momentum on his side." Oooo! Kreskin he is, now! BS.

5) "you regard the tyranny of a small minority" Again with the "small minority" thing, Benjamin. Do you need a new prescription for glasses? 44% PERCENT! And that's without even glancing at the source of your polling data for fair balance and science! "Do you favour disengagement from Gaza and Peace OR supporting Gush Katif and an endless reign of terror on the streets of Tel Aviv? Yes or No." Gimme a break.

6) "Incidentally, I have sent an email to Professor Eidelberg accepting his challenge. I await his response" And I'm sure we'll hear all about it.

"Don't Crush That Dwarf.." is from the Firesign Theatre, an album and play... I could explain, but then I'd have to kill you.

12. Tiburon said:

On second thought, never mind (reposting). Don't know how exactly anyway, and I gotta run. Hopefully there will be others to pitch in here.

Take care, Benjamin - We'll talk again, I'm sure.

13. benjamin said:

Again, you really should write more clearly, I have to read your stuff several times to put all the disperate threads together. Like many here, you throw as much as you can against the wall and see what will stick without much thought as to coherence or relevance to the issue.

From what I can gather, however, I have two prolems with your response. First, you assume, wrongfully in my view, that the entirety of the 44% you mention, along with not supporting disengagement, which is not the same as opposing it passionately, embrace the same palsied outlook as Eidelberg and yourself, i.e. believing Sharon is a dictator, that Israel is not a real democracy, etc. Second, you again ignore the most telling number, well over your coveted 66% (which of course cannot include those Israelis unfortunate enough to have "Arab" on their teodat z'ut - so much for democracy) which indicates that only 24% would even contemplate the measures advocated by Eidelberg and, apparently, yourself.

As for your suggestions that Israel completely change its system of government to suit your ends (apparently to something resembling America, since American politics are, of course, noted for their lack of devisiveness and corruption) I can only say that your point of view only underlines something I have long believed, that the radical right in Israel, as much as the radical left (and I do not deny that they have similar tendencies) is a totalitarian vanguard determined to decide Israel's future regardless of the will of its population. And, I would note, more than a bit obessed with its apocalyptic delusions of imminent destruction, which, historically speaking, has proven a highly dangerous combination, responsible for some of the most horrendous atrocities of the last century. In the course of saving humanity, a radical vanguard has an extraordinary capacity for killing people and immolating themselves. I don't see much difference here, in your desire to save Israel you carry the potential to destroy it and yourselves. I hope I may play some small role in preventing that eventuality, or at least in preventing you from dragging us down to annihilation with you.

And I am not ignoring facts, I understand that there is a large community of Israelis (and 24% is no small number in a democracy) who oppose disengagement for a variety of reasons, some I can understand and some I consider psychotic, and I can certainly sympathize with the pain of people who are going to lose their homes which they built out of fervent conviction and at the behest of the Israeli government. Obviously, generous compensation is in order. None of this, however, gives them the right to impose their views on the rest of their countrymen.

As for God's views on real estate one way or the other, I believe Jewish tradition is fairly clear that it is not healthy for man to believe he knows the thoughts of God. At any rate, we are not arguing theology here.

As for Eidelberg, I hope he will not conveniently forsake his democratic convictions and refuse to stoop to debating a poor student.

Incidentally, I find it amusing, or perhaps amusingly tragic, that the radical right has now adopted lock, stock, and barrel the talking points of the radical left. Sharon has suddenly become a criminal and Israel a tyranny in your eyes as well. Birds of a feather, I suppose.

14. Tiburon said:

right. Benjy? Do you now, or have you in the past, work(ed) for or receive(d) funds, salary, grant, stipend, scholarship or subsidy from any group funded by or associated with the Council of Foreign Relations (CFR)? Just curious.

Think we'll be 'taking a break now', Benjy.

15. benjamin said:

Yes, I'm a card carrying member. You've pegged me exactly.

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