1. BobW said:

Ivan Pavlov dealt with dogs. We are dealing with Arab barbarians and yevsektzvia.

"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference bwtween a dog and a man." Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens) Pudd'nhead Wilson's calendar.

Israel's Labor Socialists seek to obtain "legitimacy".

It won't happen.

Kol tuv,
BobW

2. elder_of_ziyon said:

Sorry, but helping out the victims of a disaster should not be a political move, but a humanitarian move.

It doesn't really matter whether it helps relations. It is the right thing to do. It is a kiddush Hashem that Israel offers to help her enemies (the Iranian earthquake was exactly one year ago and Iran's refusal for Israeli help made the news.)

And sometimes it actually does help - Israel's relatively warm relations with Turkey are partially as a result of Israel's saving lives in the Turkish earthquake.

But the reason Israel should help is because it can.

Israel can only keep the moral high ground by always acting morally, and damn world opinion.

3. Tamar said:

Welcome Elder_of_Ziyon,

Your comments are absolutely correct, and very much welcomed here at I'Pundit!

Peace.

Tamar

4. Joseph Alexander Norland said:

I disagree absolutely with Comment #2 (and, by extension, with #3 too).

First, we are not living in a universe where "doing the right thing" prevents your neighbour from cutting your throat. Israelis should know that. Doing what's right is appropriate under appropriate circumstances, where it should be lauded. When your neighbours accept your charity, and then proceed to delegitimize you to your detriment, the rules of Gentleman's Conduct expire.

Second, at any given point, one's resources can only be dedicated to a limited number of projects (unless you are George Soros, and one like that is enough). Are there no needy in Israel? Is MDA fully equipped to help all Israelis so that it can afford to send funds to Asians? Do the pioneers of Yesha have all the necessary resources to protect their home and hearth? Does IDF have all the equipment it needs? Do Israeli children have all the books, clothing and meals they can use? If the answer to any one of these is "no", then what is the justification for squandering resources elsewhere?

Third, if Israel is ever struck by a natural disaster, would any Asian nation rush to her help? I doubt it, and any one who has a different view is welcome to corroborate it.

In closing, I state the obvious: this world is not meant for weak-kneed bleeding-hearts, and Israel should know that more than any other nation. I'm sure Sherman and Patton would agree with me, and that is all that counts.

5. elder_of_ziyon said:

As to your first point, I wouldn't characterize Sri Lanka and India nor the other countries hit by this tragedy as mortal enemies of Israel. It is way different from Israel offering to help direct enemies.

Your second point would mean that no country should ever aid any other country, friend or foe, because no country ever has adequate resources for 100% of her citizens to be absolutely secure and happy.

The third point is irrelevant - doing the right thing by definition should not be predicated on whether it would be reciprocated.

Finally, I refer you to http://www.sudantribune.com/article.php3?id_article=7038, where a measily $20,000 that Israel gave to alleviate starvation in Darfur was enthusiastically received. The impact of the victims in a tragedy seeing their "sworn enemies" helping them selflessly is not only a very big kiddush Hashem but also great PR for Israel.

If you want to discount the humanitarian aspect of it, I would still submit that Israel's relations with countries such as India and Sri Lanka can only be helped by this relatively small investment. (I have not seen Israel offering help to any other countries hit by the tsunami yet, such as Thailand.) The UN voting record is not the only barometer of Israel's relationships with the international community. Diplomatic and economic relations occur on many levels - this is Israel giving away the razors, later I have no doubt she will charge for the blades.

A tertiary benefit is that friends of Israel, as few as they are, strengthen their own support when they see Israel do things like this.

Again, though, these are besides the point. No one is saying that Israel should put 10% of its government budget into disaster aid. But as I said, the main reason Israel should help is not for the tangible benefits that may or may not result, but because Israelis and Jews worldwide cannot stand idly by while others suffer. Israel's moral strength stems directly from the value she places on all human life.

This is in no way analogous to Israel's disgraceful bending over backwards to minimize Palestinian terror casualties at the expense of Jewish lives, as you seem to be arguing.

6. Tamar said:

Both India and Sri Lanka (The only country to accept Israel's offer of assitance) are clients of ours....they buy loads of products from us, and are popular (and gracious) destinations for Israeli tourists.

7. Tamar said:

The $10,000 or so that Israel will give (in bandages and drugs) to Sri Lanka surely does not equal what we charge them for one day of training their troops (as we have for 20 years) nor pay for the propellor on even one of the SAAR patrol boats that we sell them.

Both Sri Lanka and India are important business and defence partners with the Jewish State.

8. elder_of_ziyon said:

Thanks for the info, Tamar. I didn't know that Israel had any relationship with Sri Lanka at all.

I feel silly for not mentioning a very practical reason for Israel to send rescue teams - there are still hundreds of Israelis not yet accounted for in the areas hit.

9. BobW said:

Shalom Elder of Ziyon,

If benevolence was involved in Israel's assistance, I'd keep silent. The overall theme and history of Israel's public foreign humanitarian affairs suggests otherwise.

Katamonim, Jerusalem is but one impoverished area of Jerusalem. There are many others throughout Israel.

I must challenge the point that "friends of Israel" strengthen support when they see Israel provide emergency relief. Over the years I've witnessed the exact opposite. This view distills down to Israel attempts public relations successes with US provided funds because money is fungable.

Kol tuv,
BobW

10. elder_of_ziyon said:

Shalom BobW,

I am not arguing that Israel shouldn't also do far, far more for her own poor. Things in recent years have been terrible and the amount of poverty in Israel is staggering. And I cannot speak for or against whatever political machinations go on behind the scenes in the government when deciding on providing aid - everything else in Israel is politicized, I'm sure that disaster relief is as well.

My 'friends of Israel' point is more a gut feeling - there are many liberal Jews who are still staunchly pro-Israel if very wrong in their idea of how Israel could be secure, and I would guess that evangelical Christians "kvell" when they see that Israel is helping people indifferent at best to Israel. In all the news articles I've seen about Israel's aid during times of disaster I never discerned the slightest bit of skepticism or negative spin. If it exists, I would guess it is only the rabid anti-semites anyway.

I cannot imagine that Israel's offer to aid Iran in last year's earthquake, and Iran's refusal, was anything but a major PR win. And while money is fungible, actual volunteers on the ground doing the work is not - it is worth far more and the goodwill it brings is certainly worth it.

Kol tuv!

11. Tamar said:

Israel to try out F-16s against Su-30s
India-Israel defence ties are likely to receive a boost with the third joint working group meeting held today in Tel Aviv. Defence Secretary Ajai Vikram Singh led the eight-member Indian side.

Israel is understood to be keen on pitting its F-16 fighters against the IAF’s Su-30s in a joint exercise next year. Its other proposals include a marketing tie-up for Hindustan Aeronautics-made MiG-21UM trainer jets, the sale of new generation Heron UAVs and joint development of the Barak-II ship defence missile.

South Block — which is traditionally silent on defence issues involving Israel — said the JWG, which met Israeli Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz and Defence Ministry Director General Amos Yaron today, was on a routine visit. Sources said the strategic aspects of discussions, including the proposed air exercises, would underscore the meeting at least from Israel’s side, while India would review the list of proposals from the defence industry.

Tel Aviv’s proposals include Israel’s upgradation of IAF Cheetah helicopters using avionics used in the indigenous ALH Dhruv helicopter. HAL already has a tie-up with IAI to market the helicopters to other countries, including Chile and Malaysia, which have expressed interest.

Israel has also offered to upgrade the Indian Navy’s Tu-142 maritime patrol planes in a tripartite agreement with Russia, though the latter has stalled the process. Ongoing trials of Israeli equipment for the IAF include Lahat anti-tank missiles for the indigenous Arjun battle tank, Crystal Maze laser-guided bombs and Pop-Eye beyond visual range missiles.

Israeli arms manufacturer Soltam has also announced its intention to enter into a joint venture with an Indian firm in Bangalore to manufacture military binoculars.

Defence deals with Israel this year included India signing up to buy Phalcon AWACs systems from Israeli Aircraft Industries (IAI).

Israel and India recently held a dialogue on anti-terrorism, considered by Tel Aviv to be the cornerstone of future relations, in a year marked by a flurry of high-profile visits.

India, Israel hold defence meet
India and Israel have held the third Joint Working Group meeting on defence cooperation.

An eight-member Indian delegation led by Defence Secretary Ajay Vikram Singh is in Israel to review the defence ties between the two countries and to work out new areas of cooperation, defence sources said.

The sources brushed aside any impact on the relationship between the two countries following the change of government in New Delhi. "We haven't felt anything of the sort yet. Our relationship is based on mutual concerns and has sound foundations," one source said.

The two countries have recently stepped up engagement in various fields, with defence cooperation talks having taken place in quick succession to foreign ministry consultations and the JWG meeting on counter-terrorism.

A delegation from the Indian Ordnance Board is also said to have visited Israel last week.

Israel has emerged as India's second largest supplier of defence equipment after Russia.

Lankan Defence Minister in Israel to shop for arms

JERUSALEM, July 15 (PTI)

Sri Lankan Defence Minister Tilak Marapana and Naval Chief are on a visit to Israel to bolster an estimated $20 million arms purchase for the country's navy.

Marapana and Navy Commander Vice-Admiral Daya Sandagiriare are visiting the country to buy new weapons control systems for the Dabur naval patrol boats, Sri Lanka bought several years ago from Israel and the deal is said to be worth at least 20 million dollars, media reported today.

On their high-profile visit, originally classified as top secret, that began last week, the Defence Minister and the Navy Chief are accompanied by an entourage of Sri Lankan military and civilian officials. The Lankan Defence Minister is also likely to meet his counterpart in Israel, ‘Ha'aretz’ daily reported today.

The visit has come at a time when tensions have been rising between the Sri Lankan navy and the LTTE following the sinking of the second tiger merchant vessel in the disputed waters. The Tiger rebels have been accused of trying to smuggle in weapons, despite a ceasefire that is in place since February last year.

During their tour, the Sri Lankan entourage will visit Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI), which specialises in developing military and commercial aerospace technology and Israel Military Industries installations, the Rafael Armament Development Authority, as well as Elbit and El-Op, manufacturers specializing in electronic and electro-optic defence systems.

The visit has sparked angry reactions in Sri Lanka from pro-rebel Tamil politicians who have accused the government of tying to beef up the military, while talking peace. The Sri Lankan government on Sunday moved to play down Marapana's previously unannounced visit to the Jewish state saying the visit had been planned more than six months in advance and had nothing to do with the “developments” at home.

The Israel visit was reportedly preceded by a trip to Lankan capital Colombo by a high-level Israeli delegation led by Maj Gen Yossi Ben-Hanan, head of the Defence Ministry's Foreign Defence and Assistance and Defence Export Division, about two weeks back.

Arms dealers Zvi Yosef and Moshe Stav, who have been deeply involved in the weapons deals between Sri Lanka and Israel, were also a part of the Israeli delegation, Ha‘aretz reported.

12. Tony said:

Thank you elder_of_ziyon and Tamar for your thoughtful comments in response. JAN's frustration is both palpable and understandable.

It seems whenever there's a disaster in the world Israeli support is offered - from dog teams to medical teams to medicines to airlifts. It also seems that this charitable support has little (or no?) impact on the international demonisation of Israel. The unfairness of it can hurt.

Nevertheless, as a Jew, I feel proud to see the principles of tikkun olam as more than words. Is there any recognition (payback?) for this? Should there be? Just because it seems unfair, is insufficient reason for Israel (and Jews worldwide) to cease helping. Maybe the mitzva of tzedakah drives Israel more than we know.

Thank you Israel for responding so positively.

13. elder_of_ziyon said:

Well said, Tony.

14. Joseph Alexander Norland said:

The discussion above is diverging from the major point. To the extent that aid is sent as part of the PR budget, then the only question is whether the dollar was wisely spent, and I don't wish to discuss this point since I have zero knowledge in the area.

Similarly, if rescue teams are sent to search for Israeli citizens, I have no quarrel with that either.

What get's my dander standing on edge is charity-based talk, charity towards those who systematically join in the demonization of Israel. If you think that "the meek shall inherit the earth" then know that in this world the meek don't even inherit a burial place, let alone the earth. Indeed, the charitable talk in response to my post worries me that Israel has completely lost the will to fight and win. That is what pathetic EUrabia is going through, and why she is doomed.

Don't say I saw the tsunami coming and I failed to sound the alarm!

15. Callieisjooglue said:

I think it makes sense to help those in need, this spreads good will and also is the right thing to do.
It makes sense on a number of levels and is Tikkum Olem!

16. BobW said:

Shalom Elder of Ziyon and all thread participants,

As an introductory comment, Israel's aid to Iran was not a PR win.

I join Joseph in mentioning the blend of 2 or more specific matters of state (raison d'etat) do not clarify but rather cloud the issue.

It is wrong to use one's own perspective to determine the perspective of 2d and 3rd parties. There has indeed been skepticism and extensive "negative spin" over the years re Israel's diplomatic maneuvers. These 2d and 3rd parties look at the overall picture and not the or a specific instance. Israel giving humanitarian aid to the current tidal wave governments is viewed by America's evangelical Christians as diverting United States economic aid from the initial mission being viable nation-state status for Israel.

Over the years I've been close to members of the "700 Club". It was Pat Robertson of the 700 Club who provided extensive financial support for the "South Lebanese Army" an Israeli ally. One word re "negative spin" - especially heard in America's South was "betrayal".

Actually, workers on the ground, eg medics, medical doctors, aviators, are viewed not too differently than money being fungable. In non-diplomatic terms, these workers are a commodity. I hear them compared to workers showing up at Cuba's annual sugar cane harvest.

Again, the publicity is negative toward the State of Israel in regards to major segments of observers of the scene. To date, Israel's PR from a global perspective is in the negative column, along with North Korea's.

My comments here are, in substance, "O.B.E." - overcome by events. Soon, I anticipate the 2 large US appropriations (economic and military)to Israel to be cut. Besides stopping Israeli diplomatic maneuvers such as global humanitarian aid projects, I anticipate that Zahal veterans will not have the financial means to take winter holidays in South Thailand and environs. Of course, the hotel crowd from Israel obviously have revenue sources. If from the US, there is another pending tidal wave. The US is closing down the social security program and the debt service will require a reduced standard of living in the US. I expect this to occur in Israel also. I close by mentioning this is a positive aspect of the situation; it presumes Israel does not become an East Pakistan or Kingdom of the Two Sicilies, only found in history books.

Kol tuv,
BobW