1. felix quigley said:

I take as a sample your last sentence:

'Israel even more so. The Torah defines the People of Israel (Am Yisroel) and the Land of Israel (Eretz Yisroel) and the connection between them and G-d. The People of Israel have a collective responsibility and a mission and a birthright (Israel). Whether or not you believe in G-d, the fact remains that this is the essence of Judaism. This essence has survived for over three thousand years and should continue to survive.'

I have thought that Judaism is both a religion and a culture of exile, and it held the nation together in a remarkable way. Religion merges into a national struggle of liberation.

I am an atheist. I am not a catholic, not a Jew, no religion whatsoever. I am a dialectical materialist. I see thought as developing out of matter and the main defining quality of matter is its continual motion or change, from one moment to the next. but note, I am opposed to relativism, I believe it is possible for thought to arrive at objective truth.

I think your ideas need to be explored a bit more. Getting to this objective truth is the problem.

For example, when it comes right down to examining concrete historical fact you tend to skim over what I consider vital issues. One of these is the actual record of socialist thought since Marx on and why Marx, Lenin, Rosa Luxemburg were all so anti-Semitic. On this issue all of these socialists were extremely right wing.

Many of the early pioneers in Israel such as Ben Gurion were infected by this thinking. I dealt with this in my introductory articles on my webside IrelandSupportsIsrael, they may be inadequate but I have not seen much else explaining this.

The Hunting Season, their attack on the Revisionists etc, this was not the action of progressives, but of out and out reactionaries. More what you would expect from a South American dictator.

The labels have got everybody confused.

So today those young and not so young pioneers who take on the Sharon government, what does a label of right wing mean in this case? I think it is better to forget these labels and find out just what people are saying and doing.

They as Jews want to live in Gaza, they have a right to live in Gaza, in Ireland, in Iceland or anywhere else on this earth.

I think that some things are constant and that is the constant here. It brings us right back to Holocaust times. Jews could not live in Germany, but then not in England (Bevin), not in Ireland (De Valera), not in US (those ships being turned back)

As an atheist approaching Judaism this is the essence of the religion for me - Jews must be able to live anywhere they like in this Universe.

Because we are human beings living in the real world the general always becomes particular, and concrete. The truth here is that the GOI has ejected a man from parliament because of the colour of his hat.

Israel is in great danger because it has sleep walked into a situation of dictatorship. A government is ordering up the police, so many to a home, so many to each occupant of a home.

The Arab fundamentalist enemies are gearing up and all hell will break loose once these Jews have been forced out. They can bearly restrain themselves now.

In countries in Europe where I live there is not a cheep out of the (capitalist) media about this dictatorial preparation.

To cap it all this is a government which is now opposed by a MAJORITY of Jewish Israelis.

Meanwhile the neo-Left who once did not just want to hang Sharon, they wanted to hang draw and quarter him to boot, this neo-Left are urging on this Gaza operation and seem to be totally silent on the truth of what is going on.

And this is the problem, Ted, we do not have a leadership in place which can uncover the reality in front of the millions who are confused.

You see Ted I am not religious. I am examining reality to try to find the truth of this living experience. Is there another way??? I would submit to you that we have to reach for the very highest learning possible and the very best scientific techniques which will see us through this period. To see reality.

2. Ted Belman said:

Felix

I thought your comments required a direct response. Do read Jewish Statesmanship. Eidelberg postulates that Marxism lead to Oslo. He describes Maxism as a belief that economics can solve everything. i.e. change the economic system to aleviate class structure and conflict will be alleviated. (I am sure I don't do his thoughts justice.) That's why Peres believed in a new ME in which everyone will trade and live happily ever after. It also affected the founding of Israel and its relation with the Arabs.This thinking still dominates the peace process. The Western World including the US is tripping over itself to provide more and more aid to the "Palestinians". It will be to no avail because Marx was wrong. There is a cultural and religious divide here that can't be bridged

As for Judaism being a religion I must point out that this word is too limiting. The Torah created a people, "the chosen people" to be a light unto the nations. What this means is that Jews have been chosen to serve G-d in a special way . Jews have many onerous duties as a result. But they have no extra benefits other then Israel. The Torah has created a unique bonding among Jews and it has created a nation out of them. All Jews are part of this nation regardless if hey are atheists or even convert to another religion. So it is much more than a religion.

Marx et al all grew up in an extremely anti-semitic environment so it is not surprising they are anti-semetic. Jews like Marx and Luxemburg join the accusers so as not to be identified with the accused.

3. felix quigley said:

The thing that I am afraid of is this. Every time that Israel is entering onto hard times that we begin to call for a return to the basic religion.

I must point out to all and sundry that no matter what type of governance Israel would establish, Torah inspired or whatever, I would still and always support Israel as the Homeland for the Jews.

Also why am I as an Irishman, an atheistic and no Jew, am getting stuck into this. I think it is because after the events of Wannsee I have come to the conclusion that the Jewish Homeland is an issue not only for the Jews but for all of humanity.

It is because anti-Semitism is a world-wide phenomenon I cannot opt out.

As I said in order to win out at the end of all of this it is my opinion that we need the highest level of thinking.

Now here immediately is the greatest level of misunderstanding between us.

The Jewish experience and the Jewish sacred books, I do not dismiss these at all. But I would approach these not from the standpoint of a religious person, but from the standpoint of a scientist or an historian. I actually hold Jewish learning and culture in great respect because it held this wonderful nation together over so many years. And moreover no other race has been so persecuted. So this learning is precious.

Ted, you must understand what I am saying. It is very difficult and cannot be done in a short space.

In my articles that I mentioned I took the case of Trotsky meeting with Herzl way back at the Berne Zionist conference. It was very instructive but basically it struck me that the brash young Trotsky just had not studied the Zionist experience. He was dismissing Herzl and the longing for the Return to Zion and he did not seem to understand that this was a living experience among masses of Jewish people in Russia. He was a "Marxist" but it was a dogma, he had not actually done the research. This small episode very much sums up that whole Bolshevik experience.

But then I did not stop there. In that particular article I tried to show how Trotsky seemed to change as the years went on and he grew older. He was basically a journalist and as a journalist he DID pay attention to the living reality around him through the 30s.

Then I claimed that Trotsky was very close to being a Zionist before he was murdered.

That to me was quite a surprise. But it was a piece of research done by Peter Myers, an Australian I think, that nobody, hardly, knew about.

Basically then I concluded those 10 longish articles with the conviction that Zionism must not turn its back on ANY of human experience. We face such an extensive and brutal enemy (many enemies) that we have to take the very highest learning that mankind has achieved in every field of endeavour. Nothing should be closed to us. This also is why people like me are drawn to this issue, because there is something very universal in this whole Jewish experience.

And so far this is the thing that has impressed me most by my contact with Jews, people like Bob, they have been very open to debate and discussion.

I think it comes from understanding what a deep struggle we are in, with no easy answers.

Returning to your points above. It would help to avoid labels like Marxism. Also left and right. The key to Peres is really found in understanding Israeli history. Bob has mentioned the Atalena Affair and that really is the key to Peres. I think Begin really was too soft to these traitors but that can be argued over!

In many ways this experience which we had under the Blosheviks and later Stalin was the end of knowledge. But it was still an experience we have to understand.

I did quite a bit on this in my articles. The Trotsky experience is just one small part.

But that has never really been done. And it is true that that is where this Israeli leadership has come from. The Israeli government could never do it. How could it? It had emerged out of that deadly and death-like struggles with Jabotinsky and Stern. But it is exactly that which we face in Sharon.

My own thoughts about Israel and religion etc, what I hope for.

I do hope that all Israeli children can be taught this fantastic and wonderful history. But I hope it is taught by scholars in schools and not by religious people.

I do want to see in Israel a complete separation between state and religion. This is NOT the case in Ireland and certainly not in England.

The other issues you mentioned are not religious but political. They begin with the understanding of reality, which is the determination of Arabs to wipe out the Jews as a nation.

So it was THAT leadership, Ben Gurion et al, who had airy-fairy ideas about Jews being nice to Arabs.For goodness sake it was staring them in the face, Hajj Amin El Husseini, but they COULD NOT draw the conclusions. That was a political matter, not religious.

So today. Gaza should not be surrendered and anybody working to destroy Israel, well adequate measures should be taken against treason. It must be a Jewish state, ruled by Jews, because the Holocaust has taught do not trust any other nation, and so on.

These are all political matters. That is where I will end.