1. Robert Hand said:

Shalom, Omri! I have to disagree, my friend. Avi Bieber is a hero in my book. In my book, of course, the present regime of Comrade Sharon is no longer either stable or the government Israelis voted for. The essence of democracy has apparently been sucked out of this government, in an effort to prevent the proper prosecution of Comrade Sharon and his hoodlum sons. A shame and a travesty! G-d help the true Jews of Yisrael, and G-d bless Avi Bieber!

2. BobW said:

Sholom Omri,

To label Israel a "very stable" government documents that you've missed the issue. In weeks, Israel will become a bifurcated nation like the former East Pakistan - West Pakistan. To call GOI an elected government attaches legitimacy to DPM Peres showing up in a high government position. Something is being glossed over.

Gaza demolishions are indeed a form of ethnic cleansing. Note the IDF absence in destroying mortar and rocket launch sites. The chart clearly deliniates the Jews from the barbarians.

How you calibrate morality is not what Judaism teaches.

It is the international pressure that must be addressed and defeated; not the residents of Yesha - and Gaza is only step one.

Col David Menachem has a minor problem to resolve re the soldier refusing orders. The popular literature says the hearing will be a sham, ie a pro forma event.

The legitimacy of GOI is being challenged. A government loses its legitimacy when it does not defend its citizens or its territory. The Mayor of Sderot is no "settler" - nor those Sderot citizens who were murdered or maimed. Gaza is the manifestation of a much broader issue.

I agree with you that the referenced soldier will be tried and thrown in prison.

As you frame the situation, Ferdinand and Isabella's Edict of Expulsion of 1492 ce was not an ethnic expulsion. We hold to different views.

Israel's government is not as stable as you believe.

Her rulers judge for gifts.
Her priests give rulings for a fee.
And her prophets divine for pay.
MICAH 3:11

Kol tuv,
BobW

3. ShyGuy said:

That verse in Michah is prophetic!

;)

4. Omri Ceren said:

Rob: Well, the Sharon administration is self-evidently stable... barring the latest attempt by the Likud rebels, which not even Bibi will openly support this time, the democratic machinery of Israel has brought to and maintained in power the Sharon government. Until that machinery brings him out of power, he is the civilian government and - at a minumum - the army has an obligation to enforce it. And let's not talk about true Jews and untrue Jews - certainly whatever morality BobW is talking about doesn't condone that.

Bob: the Gaza disengagement might be _a form_ of ethnic cleansing, but it's not what international law talks about when it condemns ethnic cleansing. And it's not what most people mean when they talk about ethnic cleansing (I also don't remember the Jews of Spain being compensated in 1492 - quite the opposite, their land was ceased _by Spain_, not turned over to the Moors or something: different situation for both good and bad reasons). Also, it doesn't address the fundamental point - to insure that Jews are seperated from the majority of Arabs between the Jordan and the Med in order to deprive the international community of yet another pretext for forcing Israel to the negotiating table. It would be nice to defeat all international pressure, but that's just not realistic.

5. BobW said:

Shalom Omri,

The Sharon administration is in place by subterfuge. Israel's judiciary is compared with those from autocratic states. Was it Golani or Gavati declaring Gaza not an area for their deployment ?

Correct, my morality on Jews never calibrates levels (This is not self-serving. I'd wind up in the lowest tier under any measurement.) Life superordinates all land - whether Gaza, Jerusalem or the secular sections of TLV. The protection of life is why I mentioned Sderot. If leaving Gaza solved problems, my support would be reflected here. Gaza is just step one to disestablish Israel.After all, GOI is vacating Gaza and Sderot is still under seige.

I personally do not believe "international law" exists.

The 1492 compensation was their lives. Columbus' crew was heavy with Morannos.

It IS realistic to defeat the pressures against Israel. Other nations have done it with similiar circumstances to Israel's.

Jews will NOT be seperated from the Arabs after August. Soon, green line Israel will be more than 51% Arab.

The relinquishment of Yesha will generate the loss of Gamla. The barbarians do not want a 2 state solution. They want to murder Jews. They are not hiding their plans.

Kol tuv,

BobW

6. Omri Ceren said:

Shalom Bob,
When you say the Sharon administration was put in place by subterfuge, do you imagine that either (a) someone other than Sharon had a chance in the Likud primaries or (b) that a more right-leaning administration would have been elected in the general?

I'm not much of a fan of international law - it rewards those who break it, which is a fundamental violation of what a legal regime is supposed to acomplish. But whether international law exists or not, it doesn't stop the people who think it does from hitting Israel over the head with it (remember the resources that it took to fight the ICJ complaint about the defensive fence?). Now, I think that Israel should fight these bullies tooth and nail - but that doesn't mean that it should be looking for those fights. Israel shouldn't withdraw from Gaza because it will fully seperate 6 million Jews from the Arabs in Gaza - but because (a) it will do that somewhat and (b) deprive the international community of the pretext of demanding negotiations over Gaza. Also, it's inevitable anyway because international pressure will eventually force Israel into negotiations - no nation has ever been able to resist the kind of storm breweing for Israel to withdraw.

I'm skeptical about the demographics that say Green Line Israel is about to be 51% Arab - just a couple weeks ago, people all over the right side of the pro-Israel blogosphere were trumpeting pretty good numbers that show that not even Green Line Israel plus Judea and Samaria would be 51% Arab.

7. BobW said:

Shalom Omri,

In reply; no, probably no one other than Ariel Sharon had a change in the Lulud primaries.

You've made my point re international law and the necessary responses eg IJC confrontations. The "PR" aspects of statesmanship and warfare are now major components of the world scene. Israel never fielded a state of the art apparatus to address this. Thus, for example, "refugee" camps continue to be part of the local scenery.

Israel can leave Gaza and there will still be unrenlenting pressure against Israel until Israel is disestablished. Recall Taba. Witness the retreat from S. Lebanon. Note that Israel participated in a border demarcation conference re Shaaba Farms. No Israeli cooperation nor any Israeli concession has yielded benefit to Israel.

International pressure need not overcome Israel. There are too many success stories from other situations. I'm thinking of the Irish Republic and Singapore. After all, Israel is not in a fight against the world's Morher Teresas and Albert Schweitzers. The Arabs are hated in the States. The PLO has murdered many USG officers and agents. The oil companies are not held in high esteem.

Green line Israel wil become over 51% Arab for 2 reasons:
1. Some of us anticipate a large influx of Arabs into Israel after Gaza. I do not believe the "right of return" for the Arabs is nullified. I hope to be proven wrong. (Also watch for a pending campaign for nuclear disarmament.)

2. Many of us do not count the Simon Peres and Shulamit Aloni blocs as constituting "Jewish" within the various demographic segments. We're not using Halacha definitions but rather the socio-political definition of "Jewish". Peres converted ages ago. He once wanted Israel to affiliate with the Arab League. Therefor, if preparing a tally of the Jewish population in Green line Israel, it is obvious the Jewish aspects will be eclipsed by those seeking a California on the eastern Med.

Kol tuv,
Bob