1. BobW said:

Just read the above linked article - but not the intro and others at the article's sidebar. His hypothesis is acceptable enough re the US-Israel relationship. Also acceptable but needing more material, is Gil-White's theme that the greater Islamic terrorism can or will destabilize Great Powers such as Russia and China. These 2 countries, when thresholds are met, can destroy hostile populations. Both countries have strong historical records on this.

Again, accepting his hypothesis, it is still unsettling that we must review 2 distinct eras-the Cold War and now, the currently called "War On Terror".

I'm aware that when Khomeini came to power Arafat and his deputies publically visited with the import from France. The former Israel Mission in Teheran was given to the PLO and the PLO flew their flag on the building.

I'm not sure if Francisco Gil-White is a Sabra Israeli, Ruskie oleg or not. Thus, I'm giving him literary language allowances at his footnote reference [13] in the text that the hostages were "treated well". My recollection was that they were not.

Back to destabilizing the Great Powers via fueling the Muslim barbarians; after the disestablishment of the USSR, the Caspian oil fields were open to the West. Too much is missing to delve into his theme. It's been over 20 years since Muslims in China could join the Communist Party of China. It's possible not having read the other material is clouding my view.

These flimsey notes here constituting a comment must place me on record that Gil-White is obliged later on to say whether his hypothesis argues that Congress - especially the US Senate - joins the Executive Branch since the Carter Administration in seeking to dissolve Israel.

Kol tuv,
BobW

2. Al Gordon said:

It is truly amazing when an "intellectual" reduces a real-world situation to a sophmoric debate and makes a case as absurd as this one.

This type of sophistry is like most computer simulations -- worthless, because they fail to measure and account for the thousands of variables that impact system bahaviour but are beyond the scope of the model. Similarly, most of what impacts the US/Iraq situation is beyond the scope of this thesis.

Our creator (whomever that may be) gave us intuition as a sanity check on what our intellects come up with. It desperately needs to be applied in this case.

Al

3. lignaeus said:

I guess he means somewhat like Japan. We should collect all the pessimistic intellectuals and dump them into Siberia where their pessimism could at last find some justification. I'll take the can-do American optimism any day of the week, it has a self-generating success gene built into it.

4. Ted Belman said:

This thesis may be fanciful but it also has additional things to recommend it.
1. Didn't the US create and support al Qaeda as a tool to defeat the USSR in Afghanistan?
2. Does not the US constantly give the "Palestinians" a pass and permit them to continue with incitement and violence.
3. Is not the US forcing a Palestinian State on Israel?
4. Did the US ambassidor not give the green light to Hussein to attack Kuwait?
5. Why has the US not supported the democratic forces in Iran?
6. Why would the US turn Iraq over to Iran if they thought it would imperil them?
7. Did not the US save Arafat in Beirut and negotiated for the PLO remnant to escape to Tunisia.
8. Is the US pushing democracy in the ME to further destablize it.
9. Why is the US selling enormous arms to Egypt who has no enemy.
10.

The list could go on and on. No doubt there are arguments to be made contrary to this thesis also.

5. Charles Martel said:

There is a guy that used to post on LGF under the handle "Camel Prophet". He was occasionally over the top in his postings and prescriptions but very well-read and prescient about many of the developments in the ME. In the early days of the Iraq War, he began to suggest that Bush was going to create a Shiite "corridor" running from Iran through Iraq and across to Hezbollah. I am not sure whether he believed this was simply an inevitable consequence of the Iraq War or if Bush was pursuing it as strategy but if the latter, the disturbing question is: why?

6. felix quigley said:

As far as I am concerned most of the comments above are quite shameful with the exception of one or two, Ted being a definite exception.

I extract just this tiny piece from Gil White:

"As defended in the General Introduction to this series of articles, the broad effect of Bush J'r.'s invasion-plus-withdrawal of Iraq will be to foster the growth of Islamist terrorism in Asia.[1a] More narrowly, two specific effects of Bush Jr.'s war on Iraq will be:

1) to destroy Iraq as a state, turning it instead into a messy collection of militias and Islamist terrorist groups that prey on innocent people and for which no state will publicly take responsibility; and

2) upon US withdrawal, to make Iraq a de facto province of Iran.

This is happening at the same time that Iran is renewing loud calls for the destruction of the Jewish state".

And which part of the above, esteemed pundits of Israpundit, do you dispute.

Note also that Gil White makes no claim whatsoever without it flowing from the evidence which by the way he does not pluck from the air but backs it up (the evidence that is, ie facts) with sources so copious I am filled with envy at this research technique.

Since when has the Jewish struggle of which I am part been able to tear itself away from such evidence.

I have repeatedly said on this site that it is necessary for the Jewish movement to learn the sharp lessons driven home by the role of the US and EU in Yugoslavia and in the Balkans. Especially the Media so pertinent to the Jewish struggle.

I once referred to the dirty tricks carried out by the EU and US in the Yugoslavian conflict and BobW replied he was not aware of what dirty tricks I was talking about.!!!

To find out what the US was up to there one only has to turn to the copious research conducted by www.tenc.net where one might look up the role played by the US regime in the so-called Racak massacre as just one of hundreds of examples. I could go on at length here but the research is there. Again all sourced to high heavens!

Al, you write:

"It is truly amazing when an "intellectual" reduces a real-world situation to a sophmoric debate and makes a case as absurd as this one.

This type of sophistry is like most computer simulations -- worthless, because they fail to measure and account for the thousands of variables that impact system bahaviour but are beyond the scope of the model. Similarly, most of what impacts the US/Iraq situation is beyond the scope of this thesis.

Our creator (whomever that may be) gave us intuition as a sanity check on what our intellects come up with. It desperately needs to be applied in this case."

Oh really Al! I notice that you dismiss Francisco with a generalisation but do not address one single (sourced) fact he raises. I have seen this kind of thing in bloggers before but Israpundit is really not a blog like that, it is a life and death struggle.

7. felix quigley said:

I notice that the first article on the site www.hirhome.com (which I have just learned about here with this posting by Ted) and of which Gil White is editor is an analysis of the so-called Deir Yassin massacre and sitting alongside it is an article on how NATO framed the Serbs in the Freezer Truck Hoax. You like to comment AL.

I think the juxtaposition of the two is about right. We ignore the lessons of Yugoslavia at our peril.

Yet basically that is what has been done by the Jewish movement. I do not think that those who commented here are unaware of that connection either. They would have looked up the address given above. So the question could be asked why ignore what went on in Yugoslavia and which Gil White makes pretty central and relevant to Israel.

On display in Yugoslavia there are 3 things in particular, the role of the US, the role of the EU and the role of the media. I could add also the role of the neoleft which has now taken on the role of support for neofascism. You see the connection. The very issues the Jewish struggle for a Homeland faces.

Al a sophmoric debate...and an absurd case!!!

8. kuhnkat said:

I will only address Ted Belman's list:

1) no, the US supported the ISI in Pakistan. Most of what flowed from there comes from our NOT exerting detailed hands on direction for how the ISI accomplished the job.

2)the liberals, which includes the US major media, most of the Democrat party and a small portion of the Republican party certainly does. All the people propagandized by these people also. A large chunk of the US, some of which actually makes it into power do not, and have helped keep these animals from garnering too much support.

3) apparently so over the objections of a number of peope in office.

4) still waiting on a reliable source for this. Until proven, NO.

5) HAHAHAHA. You think they would exist under the Ayatollah without external support?? (and who else in the world would provide that support)

6)you are getting ahead of yourself. I haven't heard it announced ANYWHERE that the US has turned Iraq over to Iran. I do admit that it sounds like something the liberals would do in a second and is probably working on.

7)yes, that stretches back to when the Democrats controlled the Judicial, Executive, and Congressional Branches. Thank G-D we have some of it back now.

8) no, it is pushing Democracy in the ME to destabilise Islam which is at odds with any kind of PEOPLE government.

9) can one say BRIBES?? Yes, I think it is bad policy also. Of course, when the policy was intitiated it was thought necessary as Egypt would have to defend itself against more militant Arabs outraged by their sellout to the West.

10)... yes we can play this game indefinitely, what is the point??

We can extract points of information and create numerous scenarios seemingly supported by them. We need to start from NOW, without forgetting what has verifiably happened, and attempt to obtain the resolution WE WANT. Playing Conspiracy Theory will simply get us labelled as Nut Cases and hurt our own cause. Let's deal with a reality that is provable and needs to be worked in.

9. Jerusalem Posts said:

To Charles Martel,

I remember Camel Prophet, and he did talk about the Shiite corridor going from Iran, through Iraq, to Syria and then to Jerusalem... it was a logical conclusion to Bush's actions and those of his father (and grandfather).

10. BobW said:

Shalom Felix,

Admittedly I forgot the context of the matter you referenced above. Can you provide examples? I'm aware US policy was to ensure Moscow had no ally within the Balkans. Can't recall any specifics of what I said or did not say. It should assist all and most definitely me if you'd elaborate.

I do know after the disestablishment of IFOR and SFOR, the US reported it accidentally attacked the Embassy of PR China in Belgrade. This was May, 1999. In April, 2001, a US Navy electronic intelligence aircraft was confronted near Hainan Province, PRC. Was this event considered the dirty trick I'm not familiar with?

Kol tuv,
BobW

11. Ted Belman said:

Kuhnkat

I am just asking questions or proposing facts which seem to support the thesis. They don't make it so nor do they commit me to embrace it.

What is undeniable the US and the EU mollycoddle the Palestinians at Israel's expense. Why? Increasingly I worry that it is to undo Israel. Why would an ally undermine its own ally. The only answer is that the "ally" is not an ally.

12. felix quigley said:

Bob. greetings to you

I have raised the issue of Yugoslavia as described above many times on Israpundit. I began reading Israpundit at about exactly the same time I began reading Emperors New Clothes (www.tenc.net). That was just as Israpundit was launched. My first posting was on Yugoslavia. Francisco Gil White had many articles on that site and of a very high quality. As I said I am envious and will remain envious of the research methods of those guys. The groundwork for that METHOD was laid by Jared Israel.

Readers should understand the method of their research and why I am motivated by what they say. Basically they never did start out with a "position" to prove. Rather they started out with a serious and thorough investigation of a subject. As far as is humanly possible to cover all the facts. having done that they allowed conclusions to EMERGE.

For one thing this means that nothing is written without it being backed up by sourced data. This is important, the reader can then check on the sources him or herself.

On the issue of dirty tricks, that exchange, I do recall it but naturally I do not keep track. That is not the issue. I can approach the problem in another way.

Anybody who keys in www.tenc.net will immediately be met with material on Israel and with material on Yugoslavia. The juxtaposition is important. The same I notice hits you on Franciscos new site.

For example who in this world is not aware of THAT photo. So I will mention THAT photo.

Jared Israel explains in one piece

" In August 1992, millions of people were shocked to see photographs of a supposed Bosnian Serb death camp.

You may recall those pictures. Taken by the British news station, ITN, they focused on Fikret Alic, the emaciated-looking man on the left. The mass media broadcast these pictures as supposed proof that Alic and the other Muslim men in the pictures were imprisoned behind barbed wire in a Serbian death camp.

The pictures were broadcast worldwide. Twenty minutes after they were shown on US Television, President George Bush Sr. held a press conference to announce harsh new US measures against the Serbs.

But the death camp story was a lie. The ITN crew had filmed from inside a fenced-in storage area. By shooting through the fence (composed of chicken wire with strands of barbed wire on top) ITN created footage that gave the impression that the Bosnian men were imprisoned. With a little editing, this footage was turned into pictures that gave the impression of a death camp.

By fortunate coincidence, a Serbian TV crew accompanied ITN that day, filming the same things that ITN filmed and sometimes filming the ITN crew. Using footage shot by the Serbs, 'Judgment!' proves that the people in the famous ITN pictures were refugees. Curious to see a film crew (not to mention one that had set up shop inside a tumble-down storage area) the refugees wandered over, leaned on the scraggly fence, chatted and joked with the ITN reporters. 'Judgment!' shows, step by step, how ITN took this innocent footage and edited it to create the phony death camp pictures.

The "death camp" pictures were used to demonize the Serbian people as "new Nazis" and justify devastating economic sanctions and NATO military intervention, including bombing the civilian population, in Yugoslavia."

This ITN team went out to Yugoslavia in order to FIND by hokk or by crook a concentration death camp. The papers in England at the time were filled with Serb fascists this and Serb fascists that. Reference re Jenin. Reference re France2 controversy. The role of the Media. The role also of the neoleft. Leading this were writers on those papers we have grown to know so well, the Guardian, the Independent and the Granny of all liars, the old BBC itself.

There is of course the material in www.tenc.net on Srebrenica but the material I am looking at now is on the Racak "Massacre". There is so much documentation on tenc it is actually quite difficult to focus on one but lets take this:

"http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/Johnstone/racakhoax.htm

The Serb side said this and the piece follows on with comments from le Monde reporter

"It announced that the police had "encircled the village of Racak with the aim of arresting the members of a terrorist group who killed a policeman" the previous Sunday. At 3 p.m., a first bulletin announced fifteen Albanians killed in fighting. The next day, Saturday, it welcomed the success of the operation which, it said, had resulted in the death of dozens of UCK "terrorists" and the capture of a large stock of weapons.

The attempt to arrest an Albanian presumed to have murdered a Serb policemen turned into a massacre. At 5:30 p.m., the police evacuated the site under the sporadic fire of a handful of UCK fighters who continued to hold out thanks to the steep and rough terrain. In no time, the first of the Albanians who had got away come back down into the village, those who had managed to hide came out in the open and three KVM vehicles drove into the village. One hour after the police left, night fell. The next morning, the press and the KVM came to see the damage caused by the fighting.

It was at this moment that, guided by the armed UCK fighters who had recaptured the village, they discovered the ditch where a score of bodies were piled up, almost exclusively men. At midday, the chief of the KVM in person, the American diplomat William Walker, arrived on the spot and declared his indignation at the atrocities committed by "the Serb police forces and the Yugoslav army". The condemnation was total, irrevocable.

And yet questions remain. How could the Serb police have gathered a group of men and led them calmly toward the execution site while they were constantly under fire from UCK fighters? How could the ditch located on the edge of Racak have escaped notice by local inhabitants familiar with the surroundings who were present before nightfall? Or by the observers who were present for over two hours in this tiny village? Why so few cartridges around the corpses, so little blood in the hollow road where twenty three people are supposed to have been shot at close range with several bullets in the head? Rather, weren't the bodies of the Albanians killed in combat by the Serb police gathered into the ditch to create a horror scene which was sure to have an appalling effect on public opinion? Don't the violence and rapidity of Belgrade's reaction, which gave the chief of the KVM forty-eight hours to leave Yugoslavia, show that the Yugoslavs are sure of what they are saying?

Only an international inquiry above all suspicion will make it possible to clarify these obscure points. Finnish and Belurussian legal doctors were expected to arrive in Pristina on Wednesday to attend the autopsies being carried out by Yugoslav doctors. The problem is that the Belgrade authorities have never been cooperative in this matter. Why? Whatever the conclusions of the investigators, the Racak massacre shows that the hope of soon reaching a settlement of the Kosovo crisis seems quite illusory.

-- Christophe Chatelot for Le Monde"

I have not got it in front of me but also covered in tenc is that investgation, and one of the teams of doctors, Finnish I think, went into detail of the strange trajectory of the bullets in the bodies of the Albanian terrorists. Their trajectory was strange in that tehy seemed to travel in a way that suggested these men were lying facing the Serb army. It was a battle. They were not executed. All the reports of executions were boloney.

The next thing to emphasise is that CIA man Walker (4 years top notch CIA in El Salvador) was at hand the next morning with media on tow. At lunchtime Europeans sat down to their soup with the pictures of those bodies in the gorge.

What happened. To me no doubt having studied the Muhammad el Dura France 2 affair. Those dead UCK terrorists were gathered in the night, had their throats slashed, placed along that gorge, ready for Walker and the media in the morning, and ready for the public as they sat down to lunch.

Why is this not accepted? Why not publicised? The Finnish report of the bullet trajectories is the clincher.

But...people will read what they want to read. Not everybody sets out with the determination to find the truth.

Bob, you will have noticed that Al above has dismissed Francisco with that magisterial hand off. Would you not know he uses a generalisation to do this.

I have been in a battle for months on 2 Irish blogs. I have eventually decided to cease in order to employ my time more fruitfully. The more facts I was unearthing to push my thesis that the Palestinian state was a step to the destruction of Israel the more contempt these idiots would show me. That is why Bill has got a point.

But you Bob seem to have almost no knowledge of this subject yet nobody can say you are short of words on everything under the sun.

You write above

"I do know after the disestablishment of IFOR and SFOR, the US reported it accidentally attacked the Embassy of PR China in Belgrade. This was May, 1999. In April, 2001, a US Navy electronic intelligence aircraft was confronted near Hainan Province, PRC. Was this event considered the dirty trick I'm not familiar with?"

I know nothing of whether the bombing was an accident or not. That to me is a brushoff of what I am saying about Yugoslavia and what it means for Israel.

I am talking about material that Tenc has been able to verify.

There is no disputing the Finnish doctor report that the trajectory of bullets in those bodies shows that they fell in battle against the Serb army. They were not executed or massacred. Similarly with the picture. There is no doubt that there was no concentration camp there. These are LIES, big lies.

The thing hard to grasp is why in the Jewish movement there should be resistance to learning about these events. Hainan province, what has that to do with what we are discussing?

You say the US policy was to ensure Moscow had no ally in the Balkans. Why was that US policy, that is the question and from your own lips you really assert the validity of Gil Whites assertions.

We are talking about a world power, the EU and the US. This democracy stuff is pure bullshit.

I am saying to you and others that the UCK terrorists in that Racak gorge did not act alone. They acted with CIA and EU intelligence to set up the Serbs. They picked up bodies, sliced the throats of those bodies, laid them for the cameras in that gorge, and through the TV cameras next morning for an all too gullible public.

What a world we live in Bob! Read Francisco Gil White very carefully indeed. In these articles above he says that a new genocide of Jews in Israel is very close. Think of that activity in that gorge. A genocide, very imminent. Anything is possible.

That America could arrange for such a genocide at the same time as it pleads from high heaven that it is the Jews friend...Think of the gorge!

13. BobW said:

Shalom Felix,

You're getting me into debt with the long comment to respond to me.

There's a real good chance that we're using different definitions for the same words. I'm accepting your examples as correct. What you're probably calling "dirty tricks" I've been discounting since I left basic politics. Illustrative: A "news report" on BBC I do not accept as news. I accept it as opinion molding. Thus, you might designate someting a "dirty trick" where I've already discounted it.

"sourced data" is not too different than non-sourced data. If someone is dealing in stealth and deception, rest assured "sourced data" has flaws - if one knows what to look for.

How in the world can an "international inquiry" do anything better than a local constabulary?

Yes, I noticed Al dismissed Francisco's article. This is as legitimate as accepting the article. I'm confident Francisco will evaluate ALL the comments and address those areas where he does not convince readers. Nothing fraudlent going on........

It was a question....where I introduced Hainan Province. It's tie-in was re the attack in a city within the former Yugoslavia; Belgrade. The relation of Hainan Island to Belgrade approximates PR China developing a port at Gwadar, Pakistan. The port is being build for liquid cargos. The liquid is petroleum.

I admit to having little knowledge on the subject. You've got my full support on this. I was a US-NATO contractor in the former Yugoslavia theater of operations for a year and still cannot figure out how Marshall Tito kept that place together. Maybe he relied on his WWII deputy, Moshe Pijade. Pijade was Jewish.

Kol tuv, all the best...

Bob

14. Francisco Gil-White said:

Shalom, everbody.

Naturally, I sympathize with Felix Quigley's approach. His basic point is this: check the documentation. Unless we check the sources behind claims, we can be lied to with impunity. This is what the New York Times does. It never provides a single footnote for anything, and its supposed "field" reporting relies on one "unnamed source" after another. Nobody can check their claims. I pick on the NYT because it is so important but the same is true across the board in the Western mass media.

Felix is right about my methods. They were developed by Jared Israel, from whom I learned them. We are not opinion editors. We are researchers. We investigate a hypothesis until we have exhaustive data that will make our conclusions very probably correct, and whenever we have to change our minds, we do. For example, before we started researching the Arab-Israeli conflict, we both naively supported the PLO against Israel, because without having done any research we were simply exposed to the propaganda. But the accusations about Jenin were so similar to the accusations against the Serbs in Racak (which Felix mentions, above), that it perked our ears and we looked into it. The more we pulled that string, the more the entire rug became undone, and we found we were looking at a propaganda attack against Israel identical in its structure to that mobilized against the Serbs.

Can it be a coincidence that the Serbs are the people who most valiantly defended their Jewish compatriots in WWII? To read about the brave Serbs, take a look at Jared Israel's reasons for feeling an obligation, as a Jew, to defend them:

http://emperors-clothes.com/editors.html#jared

I would like to support Felix's points with documentation:

About the Racak hoax, the article below is a thorough refutation that contains links to much of the other material we have produced concerning this matter, and it also has the advantage that it directly compares the accusations about Jenin with the accusations about Racak, so the reader can educate him or herself in the common patterns that Felix alludes to:

http://www.hirhome.com/yugo/ranta.htm

About the infamous photograph that was used to accuse the Serbs of running concentration camps in Bosnia, you may take a look at it here:

http://www.hirhome.com/yugo/time.htm

To read a thorough refutation of the lies about Bosnia, read:

http://www.hirhome.com/yugo/ihralija1.htm

About the bombing of the Chinese Embassy in Yugoslavia, Jared Israel produced an analysis that makes it very difficult to conclude that this was not a deliberate NATO attack:

http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/jared/Lies.html

http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/jared/arroganc.htm

Happy reading!

Francisco Gil-White

15. felix quigley said:

Bob

Good to get your return views.

No, sources are the most vital thing we have on the internet. I spent some time recently fighting the corner on a couple of the main Irish blogs. It was a waste of time in retrospect. This is hte nature of the web, every idiot can make statements with no sources to back it up. That is a real problem. It is also how lies are spread, ref the Muhammad el Dura France 2 isssue, the Jenin "massacre" experience etc.

No I disagree there, sources are vital and there is such a thing also as objective truth. ie I oppose the view one mans opinion is as good as the other.

I do not want to let up on this.

Let me address a few issues.

The nature of this strange medium that somebody has invented for us, the web, is that we are no longer sitting over hot whiskies, watching the Atlantic washing in over Galway Bay, and musing on the strange history that brought our Irish and Jewish brothers together to live in wonderful and exciting America.

So the much talked about body language is certainly out. We look for clues only in words, words used, words chosen to ignore.

I address Kuhnkat. Let me pose how I saw this issue of the ITN teams fraud and decent which with our powerful media was on a world scale. To break down the situation in very basic form it went something like this, without worrying about grammar:

America poised to enter war with Europeans against the Serbs.
ITN sends out top journalistic team. Teams scours Bosnia looking for Concentration Camp.
Hey guys, what's there. Lots of guys in a field.
An old farmhouse, some chicken wire, a few yards of barbed at top. All just some metres long. Encircles nothing. Farmers will use anything I know in the Irish countryside from experience.
ITN sticks camera through wire or more accurately just this side of this few yards of wire. Guys wander over. One is a bit skinny. Pictures of “concentration camp”, noon day news in Britain, rest is history.
Within ghours US is in the War.

Yes this is all a conspiracy according to you Kuhnkat.
If so, if that is how you see our exposure of same, please turn your powerful analytical powers to the Muhammad el Dura France 2 issue.

To both Bob and Kuhnkat the thing that worried me greatly and continues to is that my dear friends the Jews stood aside during the US and EU war on Yugoslavia. They should and must have a problem in their minds about that. The Kurds did too. They too should have. I am totally on the side of all three, the Serbs, Kurds and Jews.

On my side it is like this in relation to US. An accident will happen once…I am sceptical, it may be an accident it may not.

Am “accident” happens over and over again. No longer an accident. Now a pattern.

Conspiracy theory be damned. Man, let the facts come out. Your answers to Ted are not exploring facts. They are government propaganda. I think we on the Jewish side as certain forces gather for a new genocide...I think we can do better. Please apply this to the likes of Rice in her shenanigans around Israel and the Middle East.

Bob, Francisco Gil White will of course argue his points and side in a way that I cannot match. But Francisco also can be silenced and sidelines.

Why do you back up the US government. Why! I certainly do not back up the Irish government.

16. felix quigley said:

Bob

A very bad mistake I made at the end. Re backing up the US government. That was definitely not addressed to you. No I was referring to the way Kuhnkat answered Teds 10 points.

Let me just take one point at random. He writes

"no, it (ie US Governemnt)is pushing Democracy in the ME to destabilise Islam which is at odds with any kind of PEOPLE government."

On Irish sites I spent time answering people in detail. The more I tried this tactic the more they seemed to despise me. They refused to answer a point, sometimes veered off at a tangent, or else just ignored it.

Now Francisco made a great deal of very detailed points.

Please let me take just one. He points out that if the US withdraw next year then Iran takes over.

He also points out how the main man of Bush there, one Khalizad, at one time called for the US to withdraw next year, and in a few days pointed out that if the US withdraws it will be Sharia, which as we all know is not "democracy".

As I said if this happens once, OK, you hold fire maybe, but if it happens time and time again, then a pattern, a method, a way of working the International system emerges before our very eyes.

Is the US actually promoting Islamic fundamentalism of a certain type in the world today? That is the question, hard to believe, that we are posing.

One other thing I would like to deal with here. The neoleft in the whole world today is on the side of Islamofascism. There is a phony anti-Americanism and the neoleft hides behind that. ie the modern left is mainly in the fascist camp.

We are not `part of that, we are the enemies of that. Please do not EVER confuse the issue on that.

I have not seen Francisco express it but I personally believe this. The US and EU are world powers, they have a world perspective, it is a kind of Empire all right.

Now there are a billion odd Muslims in the world. I believe that the US and EU see Islamists and Islamofascism as a way in which they can discipline this mass and keep control of the resources necessary for their system. It is around this area and around this aspect of things that I am in very strong disagreement with the way Bill Levinson projects his theory or ideas on the use of Language. Bill for one thing does not state where he stands on this aspect of the affair which is the key aspect. Otherwise he will have to start an inventory of names as well for the American and EU supporters of Islamofascism.

Also this Empire has deftly through infiltration or whatever placed the Left right slap bang in the camp of the Islamofascists.

Remember that in 1933 the Stalinist Left became the creatures of the Nazis as did the Social Democrats. These were huge organisations with millions of members organised in huge Labour unions. Their faulty policies (after Hitler our turn and other such drivel) allowed the Nazis take power through elections without a shot being fired. To my mind the position of the neoleft is the most vital of all questions.

As Francisco says somewhere this is NOT about oil at all. Of course the US and EU want to buy the damned stuff. Rather it is about preserving the system of "free" enterprise, of capitalist power, of Imperial US and EU power above all.

Yugoslavia was in the way. Not at all Milosevic who was a dopey kind of social democrat with stalinist training under Tito, but Yugoslavia. It was in a pivotal geographical position moving into the areas of Russia, India and China and all their satellites.

Note also I believe the era of Jewish usefulness to the US is over for good. Looking at the world from this world perspective Israel, and Jews in Israel, are very very vulnerable.

Francisco talked about imminent genocide, the latest genocide of the Jews. I posed the question could the US bring it about, at the same time that it gets all frothy about deploring such depravity.

Back to Racak. To collect dead people, to surgically cut their throats, to place at dead of night in photographic positions ready for morning snaps and OUR noonday lunch. If that is possible ANYTHING is possible.

17. BobW said:

Shalom Felix,

HEADNOTE: Re # 16; I always give the writer much leeway. These new-fangled telegraph keys will never take the place of meeting in person. I've frequently asked that Joseph and Ted get us a large log cabin in the Canadian Rockies, appropriately appointed and furnished, so we can dicuss this subject with what we call our own reference material. Both Joseph and Ted have sent me numerous emails on how we can obtain a large log cabin in the Canadian Rockies. I just haven't read their emails yet.

If you can obtain the WRITTEN sources for the Tonken Gulf Resolution or Mukden Incident (18 Sep 31) or why Pershing stopped efforts to capture Pancho Villa, you immortalize the phrase "the luck of the Irish". You can collect some quality material on the US Marine Corps in South America and the Caribbean prior to WWII. You'll run into difficulty if you try this with United Fruit Company.

Some of us do not rely on sources. Reliance on judgment can serve better than research.

What you described about war "with Europeans against the Serbs" is standard practice. It's basic - on charts and in manuals.

There is NO "Jewish" side because the Jews are not a single historical unit. If you substitute the word "Christian" for "Jewish" (or "Jew") you can see this much clearer.

Felix, what is the "neoleft"? What is the "modern left"? How can I confuse material I do not understand? Using calibrations allowing for legitimacy only injects political destabilization. For an immediate acid test, try this with America's abortion fights.

What you designate "billion odd Muslims" are really a parallel to what Soren Kirkegaard called "nominal Christians". The barbarians, in general (understanding that I should not generalize) do not inhabit Indonesia or Bangladesh. They are in the Middle East awash in petrodollars.

I clearly understand Bill Levinson's ideas and examples. I can bet my protoplasm where he stands - and win the bet. He has commented on "American and EU supporters of Islamofascism.". I haven't volunteered to help him because I know less than nothing about these telegraph keys.

I've got a hunch, circa 1933, there were shots fired - but not documented and reflected in written secondary sources - . I'm also sure other methods of homicide were used. It's just not part of the available record.

My disagreement relates to my belief that oil is indeed a major subject re the Middle East. The world does not operate under "free enterprise.

"Every modern Western nation is now a democratic socialist mercantile state with a managed economy and managed trade. Corporations around the world are instruments of the government when it comes to export policy."

DWAYNE ANDRES, Chairman, Archer Daniels Midland, 8 Sep 1995.

Agree, Jewish usefulness to the US is over.

Racak was no different than Havana Harbor and "Remember the Maine", 1898. From Cuba there was a tie-in to Manila and shortly, China.

Kol tuv,
BobW

FOOTNOTE: Felix and all: from now on, will be signing off with "BobW" in lieu of the more informal "Bob". I noted another "Bob" is now participating here and do not want him to be the accidental target of all the slings and arrows I generate. /s/ BobW

18. Ted Belman said:

"Corporations around the world are instruments of the government when it comes to export policy."

I thought it was the other way around.

19. kuhnkat said:

Ted,

in that case I understand what you are saying a lot better.

Yes there are a LOT of people, especially in power who have no particular allegiance or connection to Israel. The fact that the UN is almost unanimous doesn't help either.

In the US we see that both "ends" of the spectrum are definitely against JEWS. Whether it is Fascist skinheads or ultraleftie socialists they want no part of JEWS.

I don't even pretend to know the reasons why except that a lot of people get propagandised and BUY IT. Then there are the Muslims who believe they are descended from Abraham and blame the Jews ancestor for stealing their birthright from them. (get over it Muslims, you are MORONS without your brother screwing you!!!)

So, you are faced with several countries that control a HUGE amount of the worlds revenue through their oil sales. A large amount of this is put into Mosques preaching Wahabbism around the world to train foot soldiers.

What is probably MORE dangerous is that the UN and other world organisations, and most of our "allies", and many in the US are pretty much past the old style morality bugaboo. They believe in no god and have replaced morality with self love. The HUMAN god. This leaves them with few morals, decency, or cares except MONEY.

Now after the Oil for Food scandal it should be pretty obvious that this immoral care about selling anything for a few bucks is frighteningly wide spread. Since the Arab World is still fairly well steeped in Islamofascism they are using their money to BUY the people they need to destroy Israel.

What cares most of these dirt bags for a little country that can't provide them with any real gains in their own life and could really HURT their career if they try to stand up to the MONEY MEN.

So, yes, we have an internal as well as external fight in the US to help save Israel. My hope is that the Bush Admin is pushing concessions by Israel to allow him time to further his war on Islamofascism, and time to divorce the US from dependency on Oil from countries that back these animals. This time buying is as much for himself and his administration as they are under attack as much for its support of Israel as for the attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq.

Of course, I could be wrong.

PS: I tend to think that you can't really separate gubmints and large Corps. anymore. They are symbiotic. The Corps provide the money that makes the politician electable. The politicians pass the laws that ease the corps. movement in the different political spheres (countries-states...) and run interference with the constituencies. The UN is just another gubmint. Look at either party and you typically see people leaving office being welcomed into Corps. and vice versa.

20. Felix quigley said:

Well BobW the Canadians Rockies are inhabited by the Irish anyway, well maybe a few others, so it will do just fine, and you are dead right about the internet. The big problem I find is that on these blog discussions now so prevalent people say what they like and they are not even identifiable.

Francisco Gil Whiter and Jared Israel to me were kind of unusual.They deliberately as I said did not start out with a "position", but with research. I like that. I do believe that since we are human and since things also are in continual change (a little dialectics there) we can not ever know fully, but all the same we can reach conclusions, or within that ever changing reality we can reach absolute truths. That is what we are grasping towards in relation to this latest manifestation of human political power, the US eliter and the EU elite.

I would like to summarise my views:

1. The issue of the Palestinian movement is that it is a fascist movement which has the aim of organising on behalf of Islamism another (the latest) genocide of Jews in the Middle East. In 1948-9 when the Arabs invaded Israel the Arab assault on the state of Israel was led by the Nazi fascist and wanted war criminal, Hajj Amin el Husseini. The stated aim of this invasion was genocide of the Jews, to carry on the unfinished Nazi “Final Solution”.
2. The 1967 Occupation of Judea and Samaria (the West Bank) was the result of another Arab genocidal war, this time launched by Nasser. There are those who claim that Israel started this war. This claim is very misguided. Against that there are NO historians, respected, who argue this. Further it is not consistent with the explanation of 1948-9
3. One of the big dangers to the world is Islamofascism. There are a billion or so very poor Muslims in the world and Islamofascism is the method of striking terror into their souls. For example a woman for an extramarital affair can be buried up to the neck in clay with only her head showing, then zealots will hurl stones, (The exact size of these stones to ensure a slow death is laid down in Sharia. Just one example)
4. The Left in Ireland and everywhere globally tends to be in support of this form of fascism, which is called Islamofascism. Such is their support for the Islamofascist Palestinian movement.
5. It is the American ruling elite who are promoting Islamofascism in the world. This US ruling elite support the emerging Islamofascist Palestinian state. They force the Israelis to allow arms through the Rafah crossing. They force Israel to abandon Gaza, to split Israel in two by joining Gaza to the West Bank, they force Israel to stand by at Rafah and watch Al Qaeda terrorists march in and so on. This is the American ruling elite and I emphasise not the ordinary decent American man or woman, many of whom support Israel as a tiny country and are not aware of what their rulers are doing with their power. I think that Israel will definitely go under unless the American ordinary man and woman can be aware of what is happening and come to the aid of Israel and stop their ruling elite somehow or other.

To sum this up I see Iraq as the test case. I judge America not by what it says it is doing but by what it does. The American elite do not really care about the loss of loved ones in the Iraq war against Islamofascists. Much of this Iraq issue began with the installing of the Shah in power in 1953. He was a right wing reactionary despot. The rightful Iranian revolution against this despot was betrayed by Khomeini and the Islamofascists moved in. Khomeini was the creature of the US in that sense, the PLO is the US elites baby in the Middle East (In Lebanon the US intervened to allow the PLO and Arafat remnants safe passage to Tunis, and later with Oslo the US elite installed Arafat with his own nascent state back in Israel. And when America pulls out its troops in 2006, ie that is now, immediate, as it will, then what it will leave in place is CERTAINLY an( Iranian controlled) Islamofascist state.

I can see that many will agree with much above. The no 5 is the difficult one. For many Americans this is very hard to stomach. But remember Francisco says that in order to save Israel the ordinary good American person has to stop this elite in its tracks. A lot is really at stake.