1. Felix Quigley said:

Bill, Greetings

The Palestinian movement is a fascist movement, originated by a nazi Fascist hajj Amin el Husseini, and Israel is in a war against fascism. That is the bedrock from which we operate whatever tactics we choose to put forward. Of course in the above I disagree with nothing and the sooner the better.

I am uncertain however in much of what you write because you often seem to omit the MAIN player in all of this, which is the American elite, or ruling class, ie Bush and co. It is they who are the prop for the PLO. As Francisco Gil White said, the PLO is their baby- (see www.hirhome.com). The US rescued the PLO from Lebanon, brought them to Israel with OSLO, and now are setting them up with a powerful and rich state.

2. Bill Narvey said:

Bill, given the current geopolitical attitudes, your call for Israel to expel Palestinians from Gaza, Judea and Samaria and implicitly for Israel to declare sovereignty over those areas, is not realistic no matter how strong the case can be made for such a solution.

There are some fundamental flaws in an Israeli policy of expulsion as you have advocated in that no mid East Muslim nation, whether bordering on Israel or not would be willing to accept the expelled Palestinians and neither would any Western nation, for there is no desire in the West or Mid East to do anything that would support Israel at virtually any expense to the Palestinians.

Secondly, for Israel to engage in such policy of expulsion, it could only do so by an act of all out war against the Palestinians and herd them to the borders with Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt. Those nations, would prevent Palestinians from crossing over their borders and suddenly Israel would have a Darfur situation on their hands.

The difference is that the Darfur tragedy has not resulted in meaningful action following condemnation of the north Sudanese Muslim government that is responsible for the Darfur tragedy. If Israel found itself in that situation of its own making, rest assured action would not only follow such tragedy, it almost certainly would be taken against Israel at the first hint that it was contemplating such expulsion policy.

For Israel to even openly toy with such notion, not only would incur the wrath of the West and all surrounding Mid East Muslim nations, such kind of talk could spark a 5th Arab vs. Israel war and one which America may be less inclined to help out Israel.

So long as there is double standard geopolitics when it comes to Israel and all things being equal to todays current geopolitical situation, your expulsion solution will never be a realistic option or even an option to be hinted at by Israel. That will be so, even if the reality is that such solution is the right and only solution to resolve the Israel-Palestinian/Arab war.

3. Ed D said:

I agree with Bill and at the same time, I disagree. I believe that no other country would allow the Pals into their country, if for no other reason, they are the thorn in Israel's side. I do and have advocated many times in my comments, that Israel force the evacuation of Gaza by transporting the Pals to the West Bank where Israel could have more control. There would be no more rockets into Israel, no more smuggling of arms and terrorists into Israel through the Egyptian gate, no more concern about the opening of a sea port and airport for the Pals. This is doable and even though there world be in an international uproar, it would be a done deal. An important 1st step would be to drive the Pals back about 12 kilometers southward so that their missiles could not reach Israel proper.

In reference to the Indian wars, The Americans invaded their land, polluted their hunting grounds, provided alchohol in exchange for their furs and cheated them out of everything they held sacred. Think about it, it sound like these Indians are called Israelis.

4. Bill Levinson said:

Ed, you are generally right about our treatment of Native Americans. The natives were not, however, the "noble savages" that many people say they are. While the colonists and later Americans did the things you describe, the natives were the aggressors in some cases (e.g. the Wyoming Valley Massacre).

As for no other Arab state being willing to take the Palestinians, that is too bad. The vermin should be driven into the Mediterranean (as they once planned to drive the Israelis) if that is what it takes to get them to desist from their violence and terrorism.

5. Ted Belman said:

My comment was meant for another article. sorry.

6. felix quigley said:

I am drawn in considering tactics to the comments made by Francisco Gil White and how they differ from the approach above. I think the method differs greatly and something must give.

I think we are all agreed that the Palestinian movement was set up by the Nazi fascist Hajj Amin el Husseini and it is indeed fascist. See the constitutions of both Fatah and Hamas.

Let us look briefly not at the whole work but at the method of Francisco:

"...( Notice in the map above that Saudi Arabia is a mortal enemy of Israel which, like Iraq, is prevented by having a border with Israel only by diminutive Jordan. Saudi Arabia is also “ultimately...the largest beneficiary of U.S. weapons sales in the entire world [and] one of the most heavily armed countries in the world.”[1ab] )

Simultaneously, under US pressure, the ‘Israeli government’ has allowed the PLO -- an organization descended from the WWII Final Solution against the Jews, and chartered to finish it[1b] -- to become the sovereign in Gaza, with the Gaza-Egypt border no longer even patrolled by Israeli troops.[1c] Egypt is a country that in fact borders Israel in the south and which, in the past, has mobilized wars against Israel with the loudly stated objective of exterminating the Israeli Jews.[1d] One can hardly say that the Lebanese and the Syrians are friendly -- and here too, Iran plays a role, through its support of the Lebanese Hezbollah terrorists who are also patronized by Syria.[1e] So one hardly needs to be a military strategist to see that the Israeli Jews are being squeezed from all sides with their backs against the Mediterranean sea. If a military strategist were needed, however, we could turn to the Pentagon, because the Pentagon authored a study in 1967 that concluded Israel could not survive without the West Bank and Gaza.[1f] (By the way, the US would like for the West Bank also to be completely in PLO hands.) So, taken together, the effects of US policy are to prepare the ground for the next great genocide of the Jewish people, which is to take place in Israel in the near future -- perhaps the very near future. "
(http://www.hirhome.com/iraniraq/plo-iran.htm)

I note that in his eyes the Palestinians are merely the fascist tool in the hands of the Arab states, especially Saudi Arabia and Egypt, and above all in the hands of the Bush government.

This is an urgent matter.

The question to pose is this. Is the leading elements of the American elite organising conscously another genocide of the Jews?

If you deny this why do you deny it?

If you accept it what are the implications for the political line of Israpundit?

My own position is that the PLO is the baby of the American elite, which rules through Bush its president, through its Congress and through its State Department. The method of Bill which ignores this fact may have serious consequences no matter how "militant" he sounds.

I notice that all the contributors above either do not agree or sidestepped this issue of centrality of US role.

7. Bill Narvey said:

Felix, in speaking of the centrality of America to the Middle East and the Israel-Palestinian issues specifically, you make two linked statements.

The first I am addressing is “....the PLO is the baby of the American elite, which rules through Bush its president, through its Congress and through its State Department.

This is in part only a fair comment, if you consider your comment an analogy that Palestinians are an infant nation in the process of becoming an adult state and until then, requires a nursemaid. The Palestinians are funded, supported and encouraged along their way by many more than just the U.S. that plays a nursemaid role. The EU contributes substantially. It skews the reality to suggest that the Palestinians are ruled by the U.S.

The U.S. is however ruled by its own needs and in desperation to gain allies, seeks to accommodate EU views born more of anti-Americanism, contrariness and self interest than logic.

The assistance given the Palestinians without strings attached, ignoring Palestinian failings and continuing to pressure Israel to make concessions to people who use those concessions to advance their own destroy Israel agenda as opposed to fulfilling the West’s goals for Palestinians of building their own state, is bereft of logic.

You further state, “taken together, the effects of US policy are to prepare the ground for the next great genocide of the Jewish people, which is to take place in Israel in the near future -- perhaps the very near future. "

If you imply a deliberateness on the part of the U.S. in preparing the ground for a genocide that you see is nearly upon Israel, that is completely beyond the pale.

That said, the concessions forced upon Israel by the U.S. and world community with their concurrently ignoring the Palestinian failings that work at cross purposes to the peace that the Americans and the quartet are pushing with their roadmap, is resulting in Israel weakening.

There is good reason to fear that if things keep going downhill the way they have, that Israel will be compromised to its extreme prejudice. If that occurs, the potential for the Palestinians and the Arab world to become emboldened enough to think that Israel is weak enough that it would not be able to sustain a new genocidal attack that you envision is in the cards, would be brought that much closer to reality.

8. kuhnkat said:

The only real reason the Israelis should have for NOT expelling the so-called Palestinians is the problems it would cause them in their relations with the leading world nations (unfortunately even the US). There is a cut-off where the attacks are so bad that World Opinion becomes the lesser influence. I think the threshold is near.

I am completely in favor of permanently exiling people who continue to become MORE homicidal with every generation. I would also include the regimes and organisations who knowingly contribute money, goods, and personnel support.

9. Innocent Criminal said:

WOW, truly impressive. do you guys live with no moral judgment? you want to kick the Pal out of their OWN country? and IT IS THEIR OWN COUNTRY as much if not more than yours. what freaks.

10. t said:

To innocent you are really ignorant! There never ever ever was an Arabic nation known as Palestine!!!!!!!!! And if it was America under seige????????

11. Felix Quigley said:

Hi Bill. thanks for that detailed answer. The first point I would answer is that as far as the EU and the European ruling classes is concerned they are the clear enemy, the Holocaust having sprung from their being. I emphasise the US elite because many Jews do have huge illusions there, more than in the EU but also and more importantly the US elite are the MAIN force, the main force in todays world in what is really an Empire.

I am drawn more and more with each hour to the material I am reading on www.hirhome.com and written by Francisco Gil White, material which has also been sent into my e-mail tray and which I do hope you are all reading urgently.

Joseph will know I did some historical articles on my other site and they have sttod me in good stead. I was clear that Judaism was rather more than a religion, I said that and that it moved into the realm of political philosophy.

The material by Francisco that I am reading goes much further than I was able to. It is providing for me the key to the question I was continually asking, how did antisemitism become so deeply ingrained as the Christian faith took off. This url may take you in http://www.hirhome.com/israel/cruxintro.pdf

Francisco is pointing out that in that Meditteranean culture the Jewish tradition was not static as I had assumed. It was a truly revolutionary philosophy to which the masses of the oppressed under the Roman yoke were joining in great numbers. It posed a huge danger to the Roman ascenency.

This is terribly important for me. The Jewish tradition with it emphasis on freedom and ideas was the main enemy of the Romans. The genocide of the Jews in the early centuries was very thorough and very complete.

I feel then that it was not for nothing, to skip many centuries, that the Nazis again nailed the Jews as their main enemy.

Of course Hitler was acting out of prejudice and he had little historical ability, he was an ignoramus. But that is how it works. To paraphrase Marx very loosely history works through such people as that and they do not have to be conscous of the forces that are working through their personalities and being.

This is where things get really difficult for us. Francisco is adamant that a new genocide may be very close.

So everything we write here is not casual material.

In a previous article that Ted carried and that Kuhnkat lambasted Francisco was sure that in deciding the intentions of political figures like Bush or Clinton it is a very good idea indeed to look at the results. It seems this is rarely done.

So, if the results show that the US elite is continually intervening in the world and is continually (no matter what they say they are doing, ie the democracy bullshit) leaving behind Islamofascist governments then BEWARE.

This is where the recent Iran election results begin to hit home.

Is all of this conscous! Or could there be such a conscous element at the centre of US elite affairs!

I am sure of this. I have went a bit further on this point than Francisco. We tend to see only the Jewish struggle. I think we have to see also all of the world stage and included in this is the Billion or so Muslim poor.

Could it be possible that the US elite has this very much in mind and sees Islamofascism as a key weapon or method to keep those billion odd human beings under the yoke.

In that situation once again the Jews stand in the way. Actually phsically through the existence of Israel. Also morally and politically as well as theoretically in that the old Jewish tradition of fairness, speaking your mind, free speech is still there. And finally as a scapegoat to keep the minds of the poor occupied in the most backward and reactionary direction.

Note people like Bush do not have to be fully aware or conscous of the role he or she plays. He may be but that is not the point.

So Bill back to what you write. Our task is not either to support the US elite or to condemn it in a crude anti-Americanism as does the neoleft but to understand. This central remark of yours:

"The U.S. is however ruled by its own needs and in desperation to gain allies, seeks to accommodate EU views born more of anti-Americanism, contrariness and self interest than logic. "

No that is just not factually true. It loses perspective and lacks balance though the view is very common among American Jews. The US was the leader in the rescue of the PLO from Beirut in Lebanon and again was the leader in their rescue from Tunis in the OSLO Accords. And now the US is the leader in setting up their state.

Note that it may suit the US elite for people to think that it is all due to pressure from say Blair (with wife in tow, don't forget her!)

As Francisco said the results do count.

And eventually the penny does drop.

The key to all of this is the ordinary American person. To grasp it they have to become political in a new way. And so we are back to the Roman genocide and the Jews being the centre of a new revolutionary conscousness.

Deep stuff I know, but it IS deep.

12. kuhnkat said:

Innocent Criminal is obviously a student of history.

Innocent criminal, maybe you can tell me the names of a couple of heads of Palestinian State. You know, during the period when the area wasn't run by Jews, Romans, Turks, Ottomans... Maybe you can show us a picture of the Palestinian countries flag. (not the one recently made based on the Jordanian flag, you know the original one they used before the Israelis took THEIR country??) Hmm, how about writing some Palestinian language or dialect. How about telling us about the Palestinians unique beliefs, holidays, dress, literature, history, marriage ceremonies, music...?? Maybe a copy of the Palestinian gubmints histerical laws, or constitution, articles of confederation, declaration of sovereighnty, treaties with other countries, mentions in historical writings...

Come on, there's GOT TO BE SOMETHING UNIQUELY PALESTINIAN YOU CAN TELL ME ABOUT THAT PREDATES 1948!!!!!!!

13. Bill Levinson said:

Innocent Criminal wrote, "WOW, truly impressive. do you guys live with no moral judgment? you want to kick the Pal out of their OWN country? and IT IS THEIR OWN COUNTRY as much if not more than yours. what freaks."

Let's pretend for the sake of argument that this was true-- pretend that the terroristic attacks were coming from Syria, a recognized nation, as opposed to the occupied territories. It would STILL be reasonable and necessary for Israel to expel the Syrians from Syria, or even kill them to the last individual if that is what it took to get them to stop murdering Israeli civilians on a weekly if not more frequent basis.

If a country of a billion people (the ratio of Arabs to Israelis) bordered on the United States, its leaders preached a "religious duty" to kill Americans, and it sent terrorists across the border to perpetrate the equivalent of a 9/11 attack every couple of months (since killing 60-70 Israelis is comparable to killing 3000 Americans given the relative population ratios), then I am quite sure that genocide of that entire nation would occur if that is what it took to get the violence to stop. (This is noting that the violence is not committed by rogue individuals but with the approval of the society in question, and with at least the tacit backing of its government.) After the second or third incident, let alone the 50th or 100th as is the case in Israel, the American people would demand the nuclear extermination of the perpetrating entity (at least if conventional weapons like daisy cutters, fuel-air munitions, and cluster bombs didn't persuade the perpetrators to stop).

If I were President in that situation, with responsibility for the use or nonuse of nuclear weapons-- well, put it this way: if you are the leader of that hypothetical "Palestine," you wouldn't want to make me choose between sacrificing a portion of my civilian population for the sake of "world opinion" and exterminating your entire society. If you forced that choice on me-- lose 50,000 or so Americans to an unremitting stream of terrorist incidents or kill several hundred million of your billion people and knock the rest back to the Stone Age, your entire society would cease to exist. I wouldn't enjoy doing it but it would be my RESPONSIBILITY to do it, and the decision to force me to make that choice would have been entirely your society's. I hope President Bush will make the same decision if an Islamofascist country (e.g. Iran) forces that choice on him, and I support Israel if it has to make that kind of choice.

14. kuhnkat said:

Bill Levinson wrote:

"After the second or third incident, let alone the 50th or 100th as is the case in Israel, the American people would demand the nuclear extermination of the perpetrating entity (at least if conventional weapons like daisy cutters, fuel-air munitions, and cluster bombs didn't persuade the perpetrators to stop)."

You mentioned 50th or 100th attack. That immediately struck me as just starting in what is being done to Israel by that filth that calls itself a religion. It also seemed to me to be more like the YEARLY numbers. I tried a few quick searches for the data on terrorist attacks on Israel and came up with the following sites. If any one has the data from 1920-current in one compilation I would love to see it!! I know Amin Al-Husseini started terrorist attacks by the '30's. He and others continued pretty much unstopped since.

This is the kind of data that needs to be pushed into peoples faces to get them to BEGIN to understand what the REAL situation in Israel is. Some people think it started with the 1st intifada if they even THINK!! This is brutal, inhuman activity that is continuing and needs to be splashed across all media. The holocaust was not publicised helping Hitler to continue without the American public and others protesting. We are seeing it again.

1967-2003

http://www.jiis.org.il/Terror_e.pdf#search='total%20number%20of%20terrorist%20attacks%20on%20Israel'

2003 & 2004

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1314646/posts

Since 2000

http://www.maozisrael.org/db/detail.asp?ID=192

Terrorist Attacks Info

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/isterrtoc.html

Military and terrorist deaths 1947-Current

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/casualty_table.html

15. kuhnkat said:

Felix,

I can't argue with your statements that the US elite IS doing the same things the Romans were doing. I would add that the US is infiltrated by Communists as all other western countries. For whatever reason the religion of Socialism takes people in and turns them into the worst kind of controlling idiots.

McCarthy was destroyed because he tried to bring this out. He was simply trying to pry the Communist AGENTS out of the Government, including the CIA, FBI, State Department... and he has been blamed for all the witch hunts that every one else DID accomplish.

The communists were with FDR before, during, and after WWII and colored his decisions about Russia and China creating our worst enemies until recently. FDR's Communist advisor went to State and then to founding the UN which has a Charter that would make an atheistic Communist proud. Our State Department can be blamed for a LOT of the US bad policy of appeasing Dictators around the world in the name of STABILITY. Whichever Commie came up with that idea earned his medals!!!

Now, when looking at the current VISIBLE elite like Kerry and wife, Clintoons, Soros, and many others, they also have ties to Communists. Whether it is really Communism, or an elite group behind the communists I haven't the vaguest idea. The end result is what we see and that is the people who should be our friends are continuously being sold out for STABILITY!! Look at the old MSM elite that are starting to retire or get themselves fired. Every one championed socialist, leftie programs straight down the line and every one of them BASHED THE US AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE!! They helped propagandise us into running away from a WON conflict in Vietnam and are trying the same game today.

Am I paranoid?? Hell yes!! If you aren't paranoid then you either KNOW what is actually happening or don't pay attention to the results. I have more questions than answers and will die (most likely in a motorcycle accident the way I drive) that way.

I gues what I am trying to say is that Bush is probably the furthest away from those influences than anyone since Reagan. The one thing we have to watch is his daddy who appeared to be in the same fold as the rest of the elite. I also wonder about Condaleeza with her background in Academia. Her history would appear to be antithetical to these influences, but, the areas she specialised in and the fact she went through the NSA to State, to selling out the Israelis makes me more than a little suspicious.

Based on my paranoia that the Commies in the US are driving a lot of our policy I would say that your suggestion of elite fits right in. The powers that be in Commie organisations are definitely elite. The fact that we have had people like Armand Hammer disclosed leads on to believe that the commies have extreme influence in the US through affiliates and plain BUYING POWER in every sense of the word.

Look at the anti-war movements, the ecoextremists, the PC police, the anti-religionists, the the ACLU against damn near everything, and many other groups. Amazingly enough you will find connections back to the Central Communist Party in the US. As I said before, I AM PARANOID AND I THINK I HAVE GOOD REASON TO BE!!!

The really ugly part is that until recently I didn't know how bad the lefty stuff was in Israel itself. A lack of vision on my part. Jews originated the idea of socialism, are generally better educated (went through the lefty propaganda machine in Universities), Israel has a large segment who immigrated from Russia and other areas who are not religious... It would appear that Israel is in EXACTLY the same condition the US is in RE the Elite.

Either they think they can keep on top of the violence, or, they are planning on doing the same thing the Rich Muslims did before the Israeli war for Independence, that is, they will bug out before the real shooting starts.

I don't know, maybe I am JUST paranoid and this is all some quirk in my twisted imagination. Y'all gotta decide for youselves. I certainly can't tell you what can be done other than to fight the lefties every step of the way anywhere you meet them.

This is why I am sooo mean to a lot of lefties. I don't see them as just people with differing ideas, I see them as either useful idiots or actual collaborators in destroying FREEDOM!!!(especially when they can't be bothered to investigate some of their own stupidity)

16. Michael said:

the land of israel was given to the jews by God ,under covenant, as an eternal posession, God spoke through the jewish prophets, saying he would bring the jews back from all the countries where he scattered them ,& that they will never be scattered again ,& that because of the ancient hatred of the arab people towards them , that he will destroy all of the arab nations, read ezekial 35 ,& obadiah ,Bush is revealed here in chapter i , the envoy to the nations God says in Ezekial 25:14 ,i will use my people israel to pour out my wroth on edom ,the arab nations . All these are end time prophecies ,leading up to the return of Messiah, Jesus,Yeshua . Also read the blessings on Israel ,Ezek 36 . the bible is accurate ,Always has been. It says no peace until the prince of peace returns, next time as the LION of Judah .Israel do as you must.???