1. Bill Narvey said:

Those western nations that back the U.S. Road Map for peace, the Geneva Accord or the Saudi plan for resolution of the Israel-Palestinian conflict and Israel finding real peace with its Arab neighbors, all have in common a pollyanna faith based mentality that in the end, Arabs/Palestinians can be trusted to keep their word when it comes to Israel.

I suppose that is as possible, just like some day we will wake up to see the sun rising in the West and we will stand in wonder and awe and say, "Well I'll be....I guess anything is possible afterall."

2. Chen said:

Bill Narvey said the leaders of the West have a "pollyanna faith based mentality." I don't believe that. If I thought for one moment that one leader was unaware of the Arab mentality I would be shocked. They all know and they don't care. All they are looking for is a band-aid which will appease the tyrannical rulers of the ME. Of course those tyrannical rules know the score as well. This is why their appetites can never be satiated. This is why the demands never cease. This is why they are never satisfied.

The bottom line is that Israel can be sacrificed even as a band-aid. Surely this is nothing new. It has been this way forever. What the world needs is a leader who calls a spade a spade. One who would much rather side with the good guys than throwing appetizers to the bad guys as a 'stop gap' solution.

I wrote the following on the "UN is making room for Israel" thread http://www.israpundit.com/archives/2005/10/un_is_making_ro.php#comments
"In many respects Israel is like a secret whore. Love to use her, love what she gives, yet hate to make her your friend." While that comment was a bit tasteless it is true. Thus far in history we see Israel as a true ally who gives the world more than her fair share. Yet through all of this the whore pariah status can not be shaken.

As far as I am concerned the reasons why this is true shake me right to the core.

3. Bill Narvey said:

Chen, you are hot today!

There are many reasons that have been noted before about why Western nations, including the U.S. are pushing Israel down a road that to you, me and others see as one that will eventually render moot the ugly question about Israel's right to exist, because Israel will cease to exist.

Contrary to your view however, I believe that the U.S., Canada and other nations do want a strong, vital, viable and intact Israel to survive.

The demands and pressure that nations, including the U.S. put on Israel however to concede time and again to Palestinian demands, while giving Palestinians a pass on all their lies and empty promises, actually works at cross purposes to what they want for Israel.

To explain how such nations can be so contradictory in their wants, words and deeds, I have merely suggested the possibility that they manage to act in such a contradictory manner and still keep a clear conscience by maintaining the delusions of their pollyanna faith based mentalities that Palestinians and Arabs will become trustworthy, honorable and honest vis a vis Israel at some point and that things will ultimately work out in the end.

In the interim, you and I both know that Israel has already been sorely compromised by choices it has made and actions it has taken, whether forced upon it or not and that if Sharon and Israel make more painful concessions, at whosever's instance, that will not auger well for Israel's long term prospects for survival.

4. Ed D said:

Hey guys, what you say will not happen. Israel and the Jews have gone through hell over the millinium, but it is still there while other nations have come and gone. Israel is an entity that is bigger and stronger than any individual attempt to destroy it, regrdless whether it is a beligerant foe or friendly demands. Because of exploration, scientific reserch and neccesity, oil will not be the guiding light 20 years from now.
When this happens, Arab oil will take a back seat and return to the 7th century. The free world will turn to Israel for the betterment of civilization.

5. Chen said:

Bill. I'm hot hah?

Ok, so here is something where you contradict yourself.
You wrote this first:

"There are many reasons that have been noted before about why Western nations, including the U.S. are pushing Israel down a road that to you, me and others see as one that will eventually render moot the ugly question about Israel's right to exist, because Israel will cease to exist."

Then this:
"Contrary to your view however, I believe that the U.S., Canada and other nations do want a strong, vital, viable and intact Israel to survive. "

How is that possible? They want us to survive yet they are doing the opposite? How is it possible that now Condi via George is starting on the settlement issue again. Here is a woman who knows the West Bank belongs to Israel and that the so-called settlements are not settlements. Actually she has echoed the same view point as the corrupt United Nations. This is not working for a strong vital, viable and intact Israel is it? We know this and so do they. But they don't give a darn.

In public now it is confirmed that if Hamas disarms they can run in Palestinian elections knowing full well they will never disarm. The sharade is about to start. Because in the end Hamas will run in those elections. You can read the words and know the outcome. And who will it hurt but more innocent Israelis. But hey, that is certainly not the concern of the Quartet is it? Just wait and see the next act to this sleazy play. To pacify the US and get Hamas as a central part of the new Palestinian government they will say they have disarmed and they will all keep their mouths shut to the contrary. In the end this new santized so-called democratic government may make the government of arafat look pretty clean. All under the nose of the US mind you.

Furthermore what checks and balances will there be for Israel in this little sham of lies? Can Israel even trust those reports? No way.

All this crap is about doing whatever possible to give the Palestinians a state with Hamas as their elected officials and AT ANY COST TO ISRAEL. Israel will pay.

ED D

you wrote:
"The free world will turn to Israel for the betterment of civilization."
They do turn to Israel for the betterment of civilization. They always have. Goodness, look what we already contribute. (Israel21c.org) Yet we are truly treated as the little dark secret; the whore of sorts to be used and abused.

Contributions to the world is not the problem however. The problem is about bankrupt morals by leaders who damn well should know better.

6. Chen said:

"Several hours ahead of her meeting with Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas on Wednesday, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said the United States delivered harsh messages to Israel over construction between Eastern Jerusalem and the West Bank town of Ma'aleh Adumim, which contravenes the Bush Administration policy in the Middle East."

Then the Bush policy in the ME is truly bankrupt. What makes this even more sickening is that this being post 9-11, War on terror. This is what history will write.

BTW: For those who like to keep State and the Oval office separate because of partisan politics, we see Condi spoke for the Bush administration in her statement.

I would like to also remind everyone that when Bush elevated Condi Rice to Secretary of State he did so praising her that their views were ideologically on the same plane.

7. Chen said:

forgot to add the following:

Speaking at the Senate Foreign Relations Committee Rice said that the U.S. is concerned about Israeli construction in the West Bank, and cuts back on economic aid to Israel due to its continued settlement activity.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/635762.html

There you are folks and this comes from an ally.

8. Ya'aqov Ben-Yehudah said:

B"H

Setting aside for the moment that I believe strongly that there should not be ANY concessions on the part of Israel, and that Arabs (and goyim in general, w/a few possible exceptions like Gallilean Druze) must vacant the Land,...

...I believe we have support for the notion that nothing is "safe," not with Ariel Sharon YSh"W in power, nor anyone else in the current limelight, for that matter, for sure.

Although Sharon YSh"W has denied that the "security fence" will not become a defacto border, it looks moe and more that he wants to move in that direction. Those people (including many Jews from English-speaking countries, BTW) living the "block" know as Gush Etzion (towns south of Jerusalem near Beth-Lehem like Efrat, Newe Daniel, Elazar, Bat-Ayin, Alon Shvuth, Kfar Etzion, etc.) have always belived that they are "safe" from being expelled. They have been told that as well often enough by the Israeli gov't. Recently, it was announced that Sharon's fence will not encompass all of Gush Etzion, but rather go through it. With only some exceptions, including the residents of Bat-Ayin, many of these Jews are what we consider to be "Mamlachtim," Jews concerned that shouldn't be any disagreement between the Torah and this [evil] gov't, thus often make compromises with Torah. Relief from their cognitive dissonance overpowers the absence of hallachic (Jewish legal) logic which their rabbis employ. These have become complacent. Their complacency will be their downfall [may God forbid], if they do not wake up, not only to reality, but to Torah, which for a Jew are one and the same.

Similar discrepencies in the fence's route exist in the Shomron (north from Beth-El through Shchem and Ganim). Sharon is now talking about strengthing the Golan and the Jordan Valley.

But, US Sec. of State Rice YSh"W has already been talking about the Jordan Valley as one such "concession."

What if the Syrian regime turns around over night, like some are predicting Asad YSh"W will do out of fear, comparing his potential future overtures to the US like those of Qadafi YSh"W.

Will Israel then be force to make a "friendship" gesture to the "new" Syria?

And what are the major Jewish organizations outside of Israel doing? They are certainly not helping,...not helping Jews that is. With the possible exception of the Zionist Organization of America [ZOA], they are helping the Yishma'elim (Arabs), unintentionally for the most part.

Nothing is "safe," not our Land, our lives, nor our neshamoth (souls), not until we Jews take responsibility for ourselves and stop relying upon and worrying about the goyim.

Let us rely only upon the Almighty, and be guided only by his Torah, has handed dowm to us by our Hachamim (Sages), and not distorted by so-called "liberal" Jewish leaders who distort the Torah, and interpret it according to how they feel, and then mix and match misinterpreted Hallachic sources after the fact, in order to support the dissemination of their lies to the numbed-out, self-hating, Jewish masses, (may they turn to the Almighty and his Torah and be guided).

Ya'aqov Ben-Yehudah

Shomron, Israel

9. Leonard said:

We all need to have a little more faith in Sharon, Olmert and the Israeli leadership.
The clock has moved on since 1948 and the so called Saudi Peace plan is a non-starter.
The Road Map was always contingent upon a Palestinian cessation of terror - something that they are incapable off due to some sort of sick blood-lust.

Bush has ruled out a time table for the creation of a Palestinian State and recognises that this probably won't happen during his Presidency that end in 2009, at the same time he has recognised tne new facts on the ground. Disengagement was carried out as an alternative to the Road Map.There is no need for Israel to make any further concessions.