1. BobW said:

There's no question that Mahathir Mohammed is a fascist. He is wrong to say that the 1.3 billion Muslims are "very strong".

Islamists as a force are only a function of petrodollars. When the unearned wealth is not present, they are involved in little more than subsistence living.

Mahathir Mohammed and his country, Malaysia, actively discriminate against non-Bomiputera Malaysians. A major population bloc experiencing this discrimination are Malaysia's overseas Chinese. This discrimination is recognized throughout Southeast Asia and bryond.

Malaysia is a new nation divided into 2 parts. The South China Sea separates peninsula Malaysia from Borneo Malaysia. Malaysia has had political troubles with both Indonesia and Singapore.

Soon it might be time to publically inquire if Malaysia should adhere to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. After all, we wouldn't want Borneo Malaysia to become another Bangladesh, a new country. Would we ??

Kol tuv,
BobW

2. raionz said:

While in no way accepting the discrimination of the chinese in Malaysia, under this 'fascist' dictator Malaysia has undergrown decades of peace and growth despite the many pitfalls that face a multi-racial nation.

And I would dare to say that in no way, is it comparable to how the israels are treating the palestineans and vice versa.

This doesnt change the fact that I think when he gave that speech he was almost senile. But his achievements must be recognized regardless when it comes to what he has contributed to malaysia.

3. felix quigley said:

Ah, there are tangents, and then there are Israeli haters like the above Raionz.

We are talking here about a simple observation. There have been genocides of the Jews in every century for 2000 years. So given that then is it not likely and even probable that there will be one in this century as well.

Islamofascists are the danger. But they do not act alone.

How does it come that the US elite, who claim to be the friend of Israel, in everything they do are supporting Iranian Islamofascism.

1. In breaking up Yugoslavia they supported the Islamofascist Izetbegovic

2. On leaving Iraq they will have placed a pro-Iranian Islamofascist regime in power

3. The US elite, not the ordinary American man or woman, have placed Israel in great danger by forcing through the Islamist Palestinian state.

The Islamofascists are not weak if they are assisted by the powerful US elite, as well as of course the Jew haters in Europe.

4. raionz said:

israel hater? is it me or are you unable to read comphrehensively the simple addition 'vice versa' ?

"israels are treating the palestineans and vice versa."

in the event that any language barriers prevented you from getting my simple idea, In other words, how the israelites and palestines and treating each other.

big words doesnt deliver a point any better than small ones. islamofascist. giggles.

5. Osnath said:

Mahathir said that ? ha ha ha,

(shaking head in disbelieve,)
Osnath.

6. Leonard said:

That swan song by Matahir was all the more shocking since he was credited for helping to create the economic miracle that Malaysia is renown for and for keeping the Islamist party at bay.Although I understand that the ethnic chinese have suffered great discrimination in that country, and there have been some significant human rights abuses.
What is really shocking is that Matahir was perceived as a moderate and modernizing force within the Islamic World, and if he thinks like that - then what hope is there for the others ?

7. Bill Narvey said:

Raionz, your simple idea of vice versa was, I am sure not lost on Felix Quigley and certainly not on me.

Your simple statement, "Israelis are treating the palestineans and vice versa", delivered without more, suggest to me that you are one who draws a moral equivilance between the actions of Israelis and Palestinians, each committed on the other, without weighing their respective actions on a moral scale by discerning the causes, purposes, degrees and relative proportionality of such actions between them bound up in the historical background and the much different cultural backgrounds that defines Israelis and Palestinians.

Raionz, am I correct that your simple statement, "Israelis are treating the palestineans and vice versa", is meant to simply convey your simple belief in the moral or immoral equivilance as the case may be when it comes to judging Israeli and Palestinian actions?

8. kuhnkat said:

raionz,

and how much did he sell out the future of the country to petrodollars??

what he stated in that speech, that you try to dismiss by calling him senile, is the same filth promoted by wahabbists worldwide. Looking at the way he passed on clamping down on the IslamoNAZIS in the country at every turn, and, in fact PROMOTING ISLAM, shows that he believed these same ideas for years.

Now, the question that has been put to you is, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT WHAT THE so-called PALESTINIANS HAVE DONE TO THE ISRAELIS IS EQUIVALENT TO WHAT THE ISRAELIS HAVE DONE TO THE so-called PALESTINIANS!!

I also wonder about what is so hard to accept about the discrimination against the Chinese, Christians and all other non-muslim groups in Malaysia??

9. Dan Barkye said:

People, let's talk about the possible new Shoah, not Raionz or Malaisia. They are imp but not as much. And if this is the issue, and I, and Felix (from your remark about a masacre every century for the last 2k yrs), and others, believe that Gill is right on the money, then let's do something about it, not just talk among us. This is preaching to the choir. Let's preach to the ones who matter.

I didn't read, yet, the article in full, but from the wealth of info that Gill and Loftus/TENC have and which I read constantly for the last two days w/o respite, I bet he has some pretty shocking things to relate.

That said, if Gill is right, I think that the US Empire's ruling elite plays w the world at will and w much skill, confidence, and power. They seem to be *absolutely* confident that they have it all in their hands. So far, everything turns out as they wanted, starting w Iran, thru Afganistan in all its phases, and now w Iraq, and Europe is proven impotent.

From this I want to draw a very imp conclusion: As they, the US Empire's ruling elite, seem to be so confident that they are, and will be, able to contain ANY future problem, and here I mean specifically the Islam Fundism, then at this stage of the matter, I would like to believe that Israel is not to be forsaken and betrayed by them. I am fully aware that this may be wishful thinking, but it seems to me that it's not.

In any case, danger *is* there for Isr and us, Jews, b/c we cannot rely on strangers to save us, and we better start doing something more drastically than commenting on this or that.

10. raionz said:

I believe that I am in no position to criticize/pass affirmative opinion on either Israel nor Palestine. Hence my reference to the israel/palestine struggle.

Some of you fear its the end of the world because mahathir is credited as a modernising and moderate force in the islamic world? Pray tell me with the exception of US allies like Saudi, which other Islamic nation have achieved anything close? And have no human rights issue as well.

By the way, suicide bombings are as bad as rocket strikes in my book. and any 'historical background' in this case is akin to the Native Indians in the United States suddenly starting a armed revolt saying this land is originally mine, so all you white people please remove yourself.

Petrodollars? Like I said, big words dont deliver a point anymore than small ones. How much of the future did he sell to petrodollars? What in the world are you talking about? Malaysia's gas and oil resources pale in comparison to its rubber/palm oil and semi-conductor industry.

And having lots of uppercase just puts into question your age. And 'so-called palestines' ? Like I said, I am not in the position to judge, but your statement points out your stand so Im inclined to disregard your argument. Logic is valued, not emotions.

For the matter, I happen to be one of the 'discriminated' groups of non-muslims in Malaysia being a Chinese.

11. Leonard said:

raionz - I can see that your one liner which can be construed as being neutral on the conflict has been misinterpretted - and any contribution to the debate made by yourself in broadening knowledge on Malaysia and Matahir is to be welcomed. Please also understand the sensitivity on the palestinian issue due to the pain and carnage inflicted as a consequence of the suicide bombings etc,

12. Dan Barkye said:

Raionz said, and I say:

R - I believe that I am in no position to criticize/pass affirmative opinion on either Israel nor Palestine. Hence my reference to the israel/palestine struggle.

I - So you are, and it's nice to see that you acknowledge it.

R - Some of you fear its the end of the world because mahathir is credited as a modernising and moderate force in the islamic world? Pray tell me with the exception of US allies like Saudi, which other Islamic nation have achieved anything close?

I - Apparently you're not acquainted w the Gulf Emirates achievements, which is not to diminish one bit what Malaisia did.

R - And have no human rights issue as well.

I - Really? So you're blind to the quota imposed on the minorities in almost every aspect of life, from house purchase to stock declaration and rules of holding, and to the racist affirmative action for the Bomiputera majority, in full detriment for the Chinese and others.

R - By the way, suicide bombings are as bad as rocket strikes in my book. and any 'historical background' in this case is akin to the Native Indians in the United States suddenly starting a armed revolt saying this land is originally mine, so all you white people please remove yourself.

I - So you're saying that "Might makes Right"? You say, by implication, that whoever is occupying a place in any given pt in time is the owner, notwithstanding that the previous owner was exiled, or driven and chased away from the place, all too often by violent means? *This* is a very imp pt, since the Jews claim an historical right for the land of Israel, one that had not been forgotten for all the 2k yrs of exile, to witness the daily prayers (not that I'm religious, it's only said to make the pt) "If I forget thee, Jerusalem, may my right be forsaken (meaning "right arm")!", so *no one* can claim that he didn't know that the Jews didn't forget and renounce their right for the land (it was always known to, and acknowledged by (read the Kur'an re this), every ruler and potentate in the known world), including the Arab and Muslim ones. I anxiously wait for your response re this pt.
From this accepted knowledge you can understand that when the Arabs came there, they knew what they were about to do, namely they knew that they are taking unlawful advantage of the situation and they will be *occupying* and inhabiting a land that is in the position to be reclaimed anytime in the future by its rightful owners.

R - And 'so-called palestines' ? Like I said, I am not in the position to judge, but your statement points out your stand so Im inclined to disregard your argument. Logic is valued, not emotions.

I - I suggest that you acquaint yourself w the Pal identity. For starters, pls know that appr 50 (fifty) % of them came to """Palestine""" during the last decade of the 19th cent and onward, specifically and purposefully to find work and a better living, due to the imminent econ development brought about by the **renewed** Jewish presence (an extremely imp aspect of the Zionist movement, the Renewal of the Jewish nation *and* presence in OUR land), exactly as is the situation w the Bedouins there, who for the most part came there from as far as Iraq for the same reasons and at the same time, and also, don't laugh at it, to steal, as is their wont to this very day [re Omer's plight (a locality in Israel), as the Bedouin tribe of Tarabin lives in its immediate vicinity, just across the fence].
Pls note also that (to my knowledge) the Zionist Movement came after the American rev in terms of chronology, so it can safely be marked as the *second* de-colonization and self-determination movement in the modern times.

R - For the matter, I happen to be one of the 'discriminated' groups of non-muslims in Malaysia being a Chinese.

I- And what are we supposed to deduce from this? That you're impartial? That you suffer the oppression patiently? Or that you personally are not affected by it? Fine, but I also deduce from it that you're oblivious to the persecution of the Chinese minority there, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

And finally, pls, allow me to ask you why is it that you're so interested in the Isr-Pal issue? Just curious, truly.

Dan

13. raionz said:

With currently one third of their current GDP based on oil, is it really fair to compare the two nations?

I was thinking more in line of Saddam and other more extreme issues when I mentioned human rights issues. There is always a give and take situation in my humble opinion. Sure there are other great nations where we chinese can compete equally etc etc. But this is where our forefathers came along and developed etc etc. So in return for the relatively peaceful and economically decent environment, we are willing to give in a bit.

And not to be offensive, I would like to think being one of the Chinese whoses rights are being eroded and snatched away, I would have a better perspective than you on the situation.

Like I said, I am not the best authority on the mideast conflict. But your point of
'notwithstanding that the previous owner was exiled, or driven and chased away from the place, all too often by violent means?'

This is exactly what happened to the native americans when the European settlers went westward. So are we to expect the same sentiment from the rest of the world when the native americans start a armed revolt?

Might is never right.

So you would like to put into dispute the palestine's identity because of time? Last time I checked Singapore and Malaysia havent passed the century mark. Just FYI.

I already made my stand about how I feel on the chinese 'persecution' above. At no point am I accepting the current status of the nation. Just that I believe if one wishes to stay in a nation, there should be a give and take. And the current government is moderately more progressive than Mahathir as to equal rights.. so..

As to your last question, Im rather persplexed as to how I became involved in this discussion as well. :P I think I clicked on this link from one of the news websites I frequent and saw a perception of malaysia that was slightly different from my book.. so.. =)

Have a good day all.

14. raionz said:

and blanket statements such as:

'There's no question that Mahathir Mohammed is a fascist.' always upsets me :P

It can be

'There's no question that McDonald is selling unhealthy hamburgers.' and I'll still be inclined to make a response. :P irrational I know. :P

15. Dan Barkye said:

Raionz said:

"This is exactly what happened to the native americans when the European settlers went westward. So are we to expect the same sentiment from the rest of the world when the native americans start a armed revolt?"

Well, Raionz, justice is not to be diluted or distorted, it's one justice for all or it should be. I won't speak on behalf of the Amerindians in N or S America, all I can do is to speak of my constant plight as a Jew that is an outcome of what I described.

But if you ask, then I'll answer: Any justified demand is a request for full attention, including the Amerindians case.

As for the Chinese case in Malaisia, then I'd say that you just make a walk between the drops (of rain, is the full expression), in giving and *hoping* to get in return. *I* wouldn't be satisfied w such a position, but I'm not into education, hehe.