1. Ptah said:

My take on Zionism: Jews+promised land+guns.

2. Jacob said:

I am Jewish anti-zionist and am not an anti-semite. I am active in my community, keep kosher, and am involved in both Jewish study and social action. However, you sir, have pushed me one step closer to anti-Semitism, because I am pretty close to hating you, and you are jewish. Your jingoistic fearmongering platitudes are enought to make a ten year old doubt your integrity. I am happy for you that things are black and white in your world and that you are lucky enough to have been born chosen. Stop your imperialism. End your racism. Quit being a tool of capitolist pigs.

3. Jerusalem Posts said:

Jacob, if you're Jewish and not an antisemite, then I'm the fairy on top of the Christmas tree!

Lee Caplan is doing fantastic work and helping Jews all over the world!

4. B-bop said:

Hi fairy.

5. Per said:

It would help a lot if Jews for once could straighten themselves up and admit that all the religious, ideological and political "definitions" of Zionism are mistaken and serve to conceal the reasons of the conflict.

A Zionist ia simply a surviver of an attempted murder. Nearly all of the Jews who fled to "Palestine" and eventually established Israel, did so because they were in immediate danger of being killed in their former European home countries (and after 1948 also Arab). That was one of the few properties they had in common.

The problem for the Jews today is that it is so painful to admit that they were regarded as second class people, and persecuted for religious as well as "racial" reasons, that they prefer to keep silent about this part of their history. Thus they leave it to their still active European and Arab enemies to continue the hunt.

The end of anti-Zionism in Europe will not come until many enough Europeans understand and accept that they themselves are the ones who are responsible for the Middle East conflict, and stop blaming the Jews. The Jews should help bringing this knowledge about.

6. Ted Belman said:

It seems to me that a "Jewish anti-Zionist" is an oxymoron. Zionism is inherant in Judaism.

"Stop your imperialism. End your racism. Quit being a tool of capitolist pigs." What's your problem. You sound like a Palestinian Jew or a Jewish Palestinian.

"jingoistic fearmongering platitudes " "hating" You sir are too far gone to save. You are a self hating Jew so you have split Jews into two groups so you can discriminate against the others thereby excluding yourself from the hateful part of being a Jew. You think of yourself as one of the "good Jews'.

All the keeping kosher will not cleans you of your sins. Jews should love the whole Jewish family. You obviously don't.

7. Bill Narvey said:

I agree with Lee Kaplan's observation that the phrase anti-Zionism employed by many, if not most anti-Israel advocates, seeks to make the distinction between that and anti-Semitism in order for the anti-Semite to avoid being accused of anti-Semitism.

Those that seek to make this illogical distinction have succeeded for a considerable time in getting a great many non-Jews and even some Jews to pretend to pretend to accept that such distinction exists, where none exists.

It serves any number of purposes of many to perpetuate this transparent charade.

For those like myself, who have no need to pretend because we have no need to be served in that regard, can almost always detect clear indicators in what we hear or read from these self professed anti-Zionists, to know when such words and opinions could only have come from an anti-Semitic mind and heart.

The odd time, however a self declared anti-Zionist does make their points without resorting to any words, phrases or notions that would be a tip off that reveals they are anti-Semitic and indeed, it sometimes reveals the opposite, that they really do have rational reasons for their views, even if we might disagree.

One should be cautious therefore to not immediately brand all self-declared anti-Zionists as anti-Semitic without first hearing or reading what they have to say, the language they employ, the facts they use to craft their position and generally how they express their views.

That said, I do think Jacob has a point in terms of saying that Lee’s analysis is borne of jingoism, which it is to some extent.

I think Jacob should sit down and relax, have some tea and reflect on what it is that he really is upset about. I’ll just bet he will realize that that it is not Lee’s conclusion, but his analysis that has him so worked up. On realizing Lee’s analysis is irrelevant to him, but his conclusion is, Jacob will settle down.

While I am on the subject of Lee’s analysis, I don’t find his reasoning compelling for a number of reasons.

First his imagined scenario of Hitler coining the expression Euro-Jews to engage in a semi-genocide so that what he was doing would not catch the attention of Americans and other non-European nations and of course Jews in America or other continents, just does not wash. Lee is not giving people back in the 30’s and 40’s nearly enough credit for intelligence.

Further, the allies knew full well what was about to happen and did nothing about it even in the 40’s as it was happening because Jews did not matter all that much and secondly for what was perceived as military reasons.

Lee claims that Jews too can be anti-Semites and singles out as an example who he claims were “plenty of Jews” that betrayed other Jews of lesser station in Germany. First of all, it was not necessarily plenty of Jews as he says.

Secondly, the Jews in Germany were perhaps the most assimilated Jews in Europe to the point that quite a number, whether it be the majority or significant minority, thought of themselves as good Germans and not as Jews. I think it far more probable that if some Jews looked down on Jews of lesser station, they like other successful Germans looked down at all less successful people. It was more a matter of effete snobbery and not necessarily anti-Semitism that led some more fortunate Jews to not help less fortunate Jews in Germany.

Lee goes on to conflate the actions of more successful Jews who sold out or at least did not help less successful Jews, with those Jews acting under duress from German authorities who became as Lee describes, “Jew-Catchers”. Again, the motives of Jew-Catchers in those circumstances would be more fairly described as they were trying to save themselves rather than anti-Semitic.

Lee also conflates and fails to correctly identify and explain the nature, significance, and the inter-relationships the ideas of political correctness, anti-Semitism which he describes as “the remnants of the political movements of the totalitarian world still cling to Jew hatred”, the intellectualization of anti-Semitism in college campuses and a misunderstanding on the part of the gentile world of Judaism and what Jews believe both in terms of their religion and in terms of their role in society.

Lee also fails to explain the how these various ideas leading to a global anti-Israel bias, if not hatred is motivated by the importance of a world oil based economy, the vulnerability of the EU and other Western nations if that stability is upset and the lengths those vulnerable nations will go to keep Arabs happy to ensure economic stability.

There are of course other factors which together with the foregoing factors that I have touched on that influence the West and other non-Muslim nations to be pro-Palestinian and pro-Arab and which led to the Zionism is Racism UN Resolution in 1975 which, which gave rise to anti-Semites calling themselves anti-Zionists. For a time that gave the Jew haters some semblance of cover to hid their true natures. It has worn so thin as to now be transparent, though as I indicated earlier, it serves the purposes of many to keep up the pretence that there is a difference between anti-Zionists and anti-Semites.

Well enough said on these matters.

As I indicated from the outset, while I find much wanting in Lee’s analysis, I do not disagree that in most, if not almost all cases, a self proclaimed anti-Zionist is an anti-Semite.

8. Leonard said:

Anti-zionism involves the denial of the Jewish people to a self-determination in a country they can call their own, and by singling out the Jews solely this can amount to antisemitism. It is possible for confused individuals with jewish roots to be antisemitic ie to despise their own peoples aspirations and Jacob above is proof that the self-hating Jew exists.

Historically, prior to the establishment of the modern State of Israel there was a genuine movement amongst Hasidic Jews who were anti-zionist on the grounds that they considered it blasphemous for the Jews to re-establish a State in Israel prior to the arrival of the Messiah. But the position today is very different. Most anti-zionist campaigns have resulted in the expulsion of Jews from their various countries - such as in Poland in 1968, or the 900,000 Jews who were expelled from Arab countries. The Iranian President who wants to wipe out Israel and inflict genocide on her Five million Jews calls himself an anti-zionist. The Infamous UN Zionism is Racism Resolution was proposed by Colonel Gaddaffi & seconded by the brutal African dictator Idi Amin who erected in Kampala a statue to his idol - Adolf Hitler.

Jacob is very confused - and should be proud that Israel is the only democracy in a region surrounded by feudal kingdoms, totalitarian dictatorship and theocracies. Soviet and Nazi antisemitic propaganda often portayed Jews as being Capitalists and Communists at the same time. Perhaps he should read up a little on the back ground of his people - that is if he is genuinely Jewish as he claims, and come back better informed.

9. Ted Belman said:

Leonard

"Jacob is confused" Come on he is nore than that . He is hate filled why are you making excuses for him?

Bill

Why are you Jacob's apologist. Mind boggling. Why would you want to defend a guy that talks like that. I prefer to think the worst of him. He goes way beyond being against nationalism. For his this is visceral.

10. Jerusalem Posts said:

This guy Jacob is about as Jewish as I am a Catholic. Far too often on blogs and messageboards have Jew-haters popped on, posing as a Jew and then said the same sort of things as Jacob.

This sentence should have given everyone a clue:

"I am happy for you that things are black and white in your world and that you are lucky enough to have been born chosen. Stop your imperialism. End your racism. Quit being a tool of capitolist pigs."

The mention of being born chosen is the same rhetoric as that used by David Duke, and other Xian antisemites, etc., referring to Jews as the chosen people.

11. Bill Narvey said:

Ted,

While I share Lee's view that the phrases anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism mean the same thing in most instances, for my own reasons I found Lee's analysis badly flawed.

One doesn't tell people to sit down, relax have some tea and focus on what is important and right because one is an apologist for or defending their angrily expressed view.

It would be mind boggling that you did not catch my drift, but then again you at times have been given to angry knee jerk reactions to some commentaries and I guess this is one of those times.

12. Ben Weinberg said:

Anti-zionism is NOT anti-semitism, although most anti zionists ARE also anti semite.
The term zionism as Lee correctly states was coined by the Jews to describe the belief that the jewish people should have their own country on the traditional biblical land ( with no defined borders, no type of government and no addressing of coexisting with arabs are predefined by it).
And the zioninst movement is of course the movement to implement that belief.
In the face of ever-evolving other interpretations and definitions offered by the less than free arab press, the above definition is really best adhered to.
So here's why you're wrong Lee:
There our folks which you and I may find illogical who believe in anarchy and international communism.... these folks don't neccessarily hate jews, but are our often anti nationalism (which zionism is a form of). If one believes in the political national destruction of Israel as part of global revolution against nationalism ( I know... dream on.. but still...), they could be anti-zionist, non-antisemitic jews or goys.
Cheers folks... stop being so serious :)

13. Colin Dale, London said:

The majority of Jews now living in Palestine are immigrants from the US or other parts of the Diaspora. They have given up good homes to voluntarily dispossess the indigenous people. No amount of 'intellectual' argument can obfuscate this fact. If the only valid claim is that there was a Jewish settlement east of the Mediterranean 5000 years ago, then the US must give back the whole of Florida to the Indians. The entire argument is based on religious rhetoric that falls flat at the most cursory examination. That is the considered view of this Jew.

14. Jerusalem Posts said:

Colin, I'm surprised at your ignorance of the actual facts.

Jews have had a continued presence in the middle east and in Israel for 3500 years. And, the majority of Jews living in Israel are not immigrants from the US. The area originally known as "Palestine" was first of all under the Ottoman Empire and then the British, who carved it out to create Jordan, Iraq, Syria, Israel, etc.

In 1948 when Israel was created, it became a homeland to those who escaped European persecution (yes, and the UK is famous for it's inherent antisemitism). There were also thousands of Jews who were living in Israel long before it became Israel.

However, in the 18th and 19th centuries, Jews started buying land (at hugely inflated prices, because they weren't Muslims) from the Arabs of the Ottoman Empire, and possess the title deeds to much of what is now Israel. They brought swampland, largely uninhabitable, as Mark Twain commented on his visit to Palestine in 1867:
"...[a] desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds-a silent mournful expanse....A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action....We never saw a human being on the whole route....There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of the worthless soil, had almost deserted the country."
When Jews moved into these areas, they drained the swampland and employed Arabs to help them do the job, the PAID these Arabs and because the Jews paid well, many more Arabs started moving into the vicinity and came from Iraq, Iran, Saudi, etc., where unemployment was exceptionally high.

The people who now call themselves "Palestinians" aren't indigenous to the area - how could they be? The only people who were "indigenous" are some of the Bedouin tribes who were nomads, and traversed the desert.

In 1947/48, 900,000 Arab Jews, who had suffered years of persecution, were expelled from places like Iraq, Syria, Trans-Jordan, Libya, etc. They went to Israel. It's on record that the Jews of Iraq had written records of their lives there which dated back to the time of Nebuchadnezzar.

The Muslim perscution and hatred of the Jews is nothing new - it's been ongoing since Mohammed invented Islam 1400 years ago.

When the state of Israel was created, it was the Arab leaders who told the Arabs to leave Israel, and some 450,000 did, others remained and their progeny still live in Israel. Those who were told to leave were promised that the land would be taken by the Arab armies during the war of May 1948, on the same day that Israel gained it's independence. ALL the surrounding Arab countries attacked simulltaneously, but Israel won. Thus, the Arabs who left because of the empty promises of their leaders, became refugees. They and other Arabs who joined them later, are still refugees, because the Arab world hasn't the humanity or compassion to absorb displaced or homeless Muslims, even if they are their brethren.

So there you have it.

The Jews are more indigenous to the middle east than the newly invented Palestinians.

15. Colin Dale, London said:

Unfortunately, no! We don't have it! You have just regurgitated standard Zionist propaganda that is taught in Israel schools. There have been Arab families living in Palestine for hundreds of years. There have been also Jews - but proportionately few. You omitted to mention the American immigrants - any reason? Do they have a better claim than the 'itinerant' Arab families whose familes farmed there for hundreds of years. It's true, of course, that the Palestinians left as exhorted by their leaders in 1948 and it's also true that when they returned their houses and lands had been expropriated by Jewish immigrants many of whom were Holocaust survivors. Is that the sum of your justification for the subsequent refusal to return those lands and properties? Had you have been a Palestinian in 1947-8 would you have welcomed the establishment of a Jewish state in your midst? What would you have done? What is it that the Palestinians actually did to justify the loss of the land they farmed to the new immigrants? Do you have an answer other than your previous reiteration of standard Israeli history? Every Israeli leader has 'off record' admitted that the Palestinians have a claim to the land including Ben Gurian, Dayan, Meier and Sharon. Only you apparently do not.

16. Ted Belman said:

Bill

I take no issue with your remarks about Lee's reasoning. I focus only on the remarks about Jacob.

Colin

The difference between you and Jerusalem Posts is that you as a Jew prefer to advocate the Arab cause whereas JP advocates the Jewish cause. Now you are not alone, Most leftists Jews are more comfortable fighting for the other in this case the Arabs and they believe that they are on a higher moral plane for doing so. For them doing so is the essence of what it is to be Jewish. At least it is for them. For the rest of US we would rather fight for ourselves first. "If I am not for myself, who am I?". We do this in the belief that we too have rights including the right to fight for them. There is more international legitamcy for Israel then for any country created before Israel's creation. You probably think the creation of Israel was an imperialist plot and should be undone. All other countries established their state by fighting for it. Might makes right. Why don't you allow Israel the same right. Does it make you uncomfortable.

17. Colin Dale, London said:

Ted

Yours was a most interesting reply not least because it eschews the facile propaganda that we receive incessantly from 'unbiased authorities' but rests on fact and truth. Having said that, ponder a moment on another fact i.e. that Israel was created in 1947-8 because it was politically expedient so to do in the light of the stateless survivors wandering around Europe, amonst other considerations too complex to enter into here.

Might makes right, maybe. Then please ask the Israelis to say so and not to claim a moral authority when they carry out assassinations. However, never forget that 'might makes right' is a two edged sword! Ask Israel not to come crying in years to come.

18. Bill Narvey said:

To Ted,

I know its about Jacob. I am guessing of course that you were distracted by the politeness of my comment regarding his worked up remarks and therefor missed my snideness.

To Colin Dale, London:

You describe yourself as a Jew. If you are, the manner in which you express your views makes me think that your only claim to being Jewish is that you were born a Jew, that you have been running from that fact ever since and found a comfortable home in left wing ideology and humanistic universalism.

You characterize all the history of the Jews and Israel as taught in Israeli schools as Zionist propaganda. I frankly doubt you have any personal knowledge to back that statement up.

Colin Dale, if you take a moment to reflect on your words, you will realize that such pretentious statements reveal far more about you than the truth of what you are saying.

I will not presume to give you a history lesson here.

I do suggest however that if you have any sincere interest in being able to speak more compellingly and with greater authority on the history of the Jews, Arabs, Israel and the Israel – Palestinian war, that you expand your study of history beyond anti-Israel/anti-Semitic historical sources, pro-Palestinian propaganda and media sound bites from pro-Palestinian/anti-Israel media sources.

19. Colin Dale, London said:

Unless you have a doctorate (PhD) in Modern Jewish History, Bill, which from your letters I very much doubt, then it will not be possible for you to give me a history lesson! Colin

20. Lee Kaplan said:

Some comments on the comments:

Colin Dale, do you have a PhD in Modern Jewish history? Apparently not even a high school diploma. At any rate, I can show you Arab PhDs in the Middle East who write that Jews use the blood of gentile children to make matzah. The fact is there has been a major Jewish presence in Israel for 5,000 years and a "Palestinian" nationality was concocted by the Egyptians and Arab League in 1964 and reafirmed in 1967 and 1970. The majority of Palestinian Arabs emigrated to the Holy Land in the 20's and 30's under the British just as Jews did--legally. Saying "a jewish settlement" (ever read the Bible, there was a huge Jewish kingdom there before the Diaspora and even after Diaspora). Finally, Palestine was the renaming of Israel by the Romans to insult the Jews, after the third Jewish revolt that wiped out entire legions. That "Jewish settlement" cost the mighty Roman Army a pyrrhic victory that history has well recorded. Colin uses sophistry to mask his anti-Semitism.

=
Jacob, if he is a Jew, fits the anarchist/socialist mindet I discussed in my article. The fact one reader questions he is a Jew is astute but probaly so. Jacob refers to my attitude of "chosenness" which contradicts what I explained in my article. To be the Chosen People the idea is not superiority but a need to endeavor to set an example. In fact, he supported my thesis. Jacob would be a Judenrat in Warsaw if he really was a Jew, which I doubt. And there were more than just a few Jews who aided the Nazis to save their own hides.

Bill Narvey:

Sorry, but you are flat wrong on all counts. In fact,it is the overly intellectual Jew who will find "both sides" even among those want to murder the Jewish people who will and are destroying Israel (albeit sometimes unintentionally). Bill neglects to mention that for thousands of years at Pesach Jews have always been required to end the Seder with "Next year in Jerusalem." That is Zionism my friend, the core to Judaism. The Jewish people are one--the Schema--and referred to as Israel. Israel is the center of Judaism just as the Vatican is the center for Catholicism in the world and the roots go back thousands. It was finally termed "Zionism" by Theodore Herzl and his movement. Separating "Zionism" from Judaism and the land was something Arab "intellectuals" did by the Big Lie method for reasons I explained in my article. Edward Said can take much credit for elevating this sophistry in the US college system from his new abode in hell. As for obscure sects like Neterui Karta who say they are "anti-Zionist," the reasoning that they are against Israel because the Messiah did not come yet is more an excuse by Hungarian rabbis who founded the movement and resented the possibility of losing control and power over their flocks if they went to Israel and were mixing with and under governmental authority of secular Jews. The current Neterui Karta are funded by the PLO, with Moshe Hirsh getting $50K a year and even their website, replete with historical lies, is funded by and managed by the PLO chammber of commerce. In other word, these are more of the anti-Semitic Jews I described in my article, despite their Hasidic attire and Bible study. As I said, there are Jewish anti-Semties, be it for
radical socialism, for self-gain or simply by ignorance. One Neo-Nazi in the US who attacked and attempted to murder Jews was founnd to be of Jewish ancestry after he died.

A film was made up about him. Many of the core Jewish activists in the ISM are homosexuals who despite persecution of gays by the PLO attack Israel also no doubt because of past personal experiences with straight Jews who adhered to biblical condemnations of such sexuality. The reasons for Jewish anti-Semitism are multifarious. And anti-Zionism, as I stated, is the politically correct way to voice it today. Even the Neo-Nazis now say they are "Anti-Zionist" rather than anti-Jewish.

These guys (goys) should reread my article...

21. Bill Narvey said:

Lee,

I have re-read your article as you invited and my comments in that regard. You now introduce more facts and circumstances to further support your analysis that leads you to your conclusion and more reasons for rejecting what I have to say.

First off, I did not challenge or disagree with all things you said in your original opinion. I reserve comment on your added arguments as I find it unnecessary to respond to you further.

Your reaction moves me to make these comments however.

I pointed out what I thought were some shortcomings in your analysis. You have taken pretty strong exception to my words.

Disagree with me as you will, but I stand by what I said.

What I am surprised by however is that you have devoted so much time and effort to justify your conclusion that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism, when that conclusion is virtually tantamount to stating the obvious requiring no explanation.

In terms of your stating the obvious:

I disagree only in degree since I said that some self declared anti-Zionists are not necessarily anti-Semites, however they would be few and far between.

While Muslims and Western anti-Semites will describe themselves as anti-Zionist, that distinction has worn thin and fair minded Westerners will not be fooled into believing there is such a distinction. Some however will pretend a distinction exists if it serves some other purpose, such as when a Western nation or politician seeks to curry favor with Arabs to protect their own well being or their elected position, because they are in one way or another beholden to Arabs or a Muslim constituency

It is also stating the obvious in saying that some self loathing Jews can be called Jew haters. They are however relatively small in number.

Left wing ideology is almost a religion in itself. Left wingers rail against everyone who has the power that they don’t and will condemn anything that evidences other’s power. Israel is more powerful than Palestinians. Left wingers ignore it is Israel vs. 550 million Arabs and instead root for their underdog, the Palestinians.

Some Jews have been so converted to left wing ideology, they are disconnected emotionally and intellectually from Judaism and the Jewish community at large.

Larger in number, but still a relatively small minority are those Jews who in emphasizing their own sense of universality to make themselves feel good about their own humanity, claim to feel Palestinian pain, but in so doing forget all about feeling the pain of their fellow Jews and Israelis.

These Jews are great at expressing their own self aggrandizing auto-pleasurable, but singularly dimensional views, while they are incapable of tying their own shoelaces.

Then there are some Jews who want to feel Palestinian pain as much as Israel’s pain and find some fair egalitarian solution for the Israel Palestinian war. The leaders of the American United Reform Synagogues speak in that vein, though interestingly they do not have the backing of nearly all their congregants.

For those majority of Jews who still see themselves as Jews, there are variations in their perceptions as to how Jews see themselves and Israel and what is necessary for Israel to ensure Israel’s well being, safety and security in a hostile world.

World Jewry can hardly be accused of being monolithic in their thinking, which seems to mark so much of Muslim thinking.

To conclude Lee, I would have thought that you would be far more happy that I agree with your conclusions to the extent I do, rather than be so obviously upset that I disagree on some of your thinking that leads you to your conclusions.

22. Leonard said:

Colin - like jerusalem Posts I too am astounded by your ignorance of the conflict. I note that you are only prepared to be given history lessons by those like you who have achieved a PhD in Modern Jewish History. Where did you gain your PhD in Palestinian propaganda ?

You state that "the majority of jews living in palestine are immigrants from the USA...
They have given up good homes to disposses the indigenous people". The actual facts are that fewer than twenty thousand Jews out of five & half million are from the USA". More than half the Jews living in Israel are descendants of the over 900,000 Jews who were expelled from Arab countries where they had resided for over two thousand years.
Most of the Ashkenazi Jews from Russian & Eastern Europe also fled pogroms and persecution in their former countries, and ofcourse you have the holocaust survivors.

Most of the Palestinians remain in what was the 1917 historic mandate of former Palestine
in Gaza,the West Bank & Jordan, and are no more refugees then you would be Colin if you were to move from London to Manchester.Over a million arabs live within pre-1967 Israel with full civic rights. It is also a fact that early Jewish settlement brought economic opportunities and development to the region that created employment opportunities and resulted in arab migration into the region from neighbouring countries.

The flight of some 600,000 arabs from their homes in 1948 took place within the context of a War in which athe Arab League rejected partition and ivaded with six arab armies determined to drive the Jews into the Sea. Jews were expelled from the Old City in Jerusalem, Gush Etzion and were massacred in Hebron. Jews as mentioned above were also expelled from over 20 arab countries and found shelter in Israel. A population exchange took place as has happened in conflicts all over the World such as in India/Pakistan, or
in Eastern Europe following the end of the Second World War. Had the arabs been victorious in 1948 - then the Jewish population would have been eliminated like in Europe.

Jewish links to Israel are far stronger than those presently occupying most regions of the World - and that includes North & South America, Australia,NZ, Russia - infact the arab empire expanded out of the Saudi Peninsular to stretch as far as Morrocco, Sudan & Persia. You should stop regurgitating mindless slogans and examine the facts.

23. Leonard said:

I would also like to reiterate the analysis of Lee Kaplan above when he says that Zionism is at the very core of Judaism. If you read the English translation of all the religious texts in most Jewish services and festivals you will recognize this longing for the Jews in Exile to return to their Ancient Homeland and rebuild the Temple on Zion
is expressed throughout.

24. Ted Belman said:

Colin

You are wrong again. The political seeds of the Jewish state were planted in 1917 by the Balfour Declaration being endorsed by the British Cabinet. This was 20 years before the commencement of the Holocaust and 30 years before the UN Partition Act of '47. The Balfour Declaration was also agreed to by the House of Saud. All the Arab countries were created in the wake of the fall of the Ottoman Empire at the end of WWI and so was Israel. What is your problem? Also the majority of the Israelis are indiginous to the area having been expelled from Arab countries.

If you want to be fair why not give the Jewish side also. Is there only one side. We have shown you that you are wrong in most of your facts. Will this change your mind. I doubt it. In fact Israel has the best legal title to the West Bank. You probably don't care about that either and out of ignorance reject the idea.

25. Bill Narvey said:

Colin,

The last refuge of an advocate for a cause who has been bested by his critics, is snarkiness.

I gave you sound advice. I suggest you take it. If you choose to again debate your position, you would then be armed with real facts or bullets if you will, instead of just shooting off blanks because you enjoy hearing the noise you make.

26. Jauhara al Kafirah said:

This is an intensely interesting thread! I hope, as a non Jewish Zionist, that I may be permitted to weigh in.
Israel is such a small country, that it boggles the mind why so many Arabs fight over it, when all around are vast quantities of Arab dominated lands! I see it like this: Imagine Tibet regaining its independence. The Tibetan Diaspora returns.Tibet's holy sites are reestablished, after all, it is a religious country, the Dalai Lama is a Tibetan. It would be like the Han saying, the Tibetans stole Han lands! Han properties...the Han born in Tibet should not be displaced from their homes...continue the analogy if you will. Or let's go back to the middle east and carve out of Syria, Turkey, Iraq and Iran, a Kurdish homeland. There is no denying that Kurds are a majority on the lands they live, right? Yet, Arab nations would never think of giving the Kurds autonomy, much less letting them establish a nation with identifiable borders and a capital....and the Kurds are overwhelmingly MUSLIM!

27. kuhnkat said:

Colin Dale,

As a typical Islamofascist appeaser and apologist you have given up the ideas of what makes a MORAL right.

It is so simple even someone without even a BA can understand it.

The Israelis are willing to live in peace with their neighbors. Their neighbos are willing to kill themselves to commit GENOCIDE on the Israelis.

Yup, that is pretty black and white and also true.

Now, when you can find some proof that the Israelis neighbors are willing to live peacefully with them, say, they stop suicide bombing which only targets innocent men, women, and children of all races who just happen to be in a particular location at a particular time, there may be something more to discuss. Until then Israelis have the MORAL and SECULAR authority to protect themselves from murdering slime.

Little things tell me I am right. For example, the lionization of Hitler in the so-called Palestinian society. The teaching of hate and death in their mosques. The fact that they vote for strong men, and women, who tell them they will destroy Israel and never make peace with them...

Since you claim to know history then you KNOW the Zionists were BUYING land and filth like this:

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mufti.php

organised Muslims to commit atrocities on these Zionists, and when that didn't slow the land purchases, threatened and actually killed locals SELLING the land. He and his Islamofascists brethren have continued their propaganda and violent fight agains the Israelis ever since with the support of MOST of the Arab and MUSLIM world.

Now, quit playing with that organ called a BRAIN AND USE IT FOR SOMETHING INSTEAD OF SPREADING PROPAGANDA!!!

28. mike said:

There should be some required reading before posting in this topic thread.
Here it is:
"The Oslo Syndrome" By Kenneth Levin

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1575254174/sr=1-1/qid=1137778241/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-1417900-5099220?%5Fencoding=UTF8

29. Dan Barkye said:

For the confused and deluded Colin et al, for all the bewildered pseudo-intelectuals and for all the fascist left.

You said:
"If the only valid claim is that there was a Jewish settlement east of the Mediterranean 5000 years ago, then the US must give back the whole of Florida to the Indians. The entire argument is based on religious rhetoric that falls flat at the most cursory examination. That is the considered view of this Jew."

Yes, you're damn right, the US should give back land to anyone who was the original owner and claims it. THIS is the argument that you are so afraid of, my dear deluded lady! THIS is the one! And add to the US all the other countries that sit on another's land and to which one day the bill will be forwarded by the rightful owner.

You are afraid to understand that by denying the Jews the right of claim for their ancestral land b/c they never renounced it and also b/c they always lived there, even if it was in small no's, you deny this very right for any other displaced people.

But I understand why you're doing it, I understand it perfectly.

You're afraid that one day the Scots, and the Welsh, and the Irish, who all have a liberation movement from under the Saxon yoke, will rise someday and claim their ancestral land.
You're afraid that Argentina will claim again, and will realize its claim, for the Malvinas Isles, for you can be sure that they didn't forget nor renounced those islands that are far closer to them than to the Grrrrrrrreat Britain.

You're afraid that New Caledonia will separate from France and so it will give a push to Quebec endangering the crown jewel of Canada, which will give a push to the Basques, which will give a push to the Flems in Belgium, which will give a RENEWED push to the Jews to claim even louder their lawful, rightful, legitimate claim for their land that had been stolen from them while in exile.

No other land belonging to no other people had been taken while they were in exile, but ours, confused, deluded lady, and this argument, added to the legitimacy of it, gives you the jitters, b/c it's so true, so obvious and so frightful.

Now, you know why you're afraid to recognize the lawfulness of the Jewish people for their fatherland, their motherland, their ancestral land, which they never really left, nor renounced.

What I can't understand, is how can you still cling to false and illogical ideas, just b/c they are presented under the cheating flag of a fascist left?

30. Ed D said:

Jacob (rightfully named Judas) and Dale (No repectful Jew would call you by your first name) are both so incredibally stupid for outlook at Judaism. I will refer to you as Mohammed and Abdullah. It would be my pleasure to see an Arab attack and castrate you.

On the other hand, Mr. Kafirah, I salute you.

31. Jauhara al Kafirah said:

Ed, I'm a lady, but thank you for the sentiment!

32. george said:

HAs there been any time since 1948 that the "palestinans" have genuinely sought to live in an independant state bordering Israel?, Any time when they have not simply wanted its destruction and the genocide or enslavement of the Israeli Jews?

33. james said:

Zionism is a political ideoligy that is morally supported by Jews, some christians and even some atheists/agnostics.

Anti-semetism is described by the oxford english dictionary as "hostility to or prejudice against Jews." This is despite the fact that a semite is defined as " member of a people speaking a Semitic language, in particular the Jews and Arabs."

Zionism, although largely regarded as inherent to judaism, is therefore entirely diffent from 'being a semite'. As some jews are against the ideoligy of zionism, and some other groups are for zionism, zionism cannot be defined as a manifistation of jewish ideoligy.

To be against the idea of zionism and it's main entity (israel) is not anti-semitic.

34. Jerusalem Posts said:

James, maybe you're too young to remember, but the term antisemitism didn't come into use until the early 20th century - and it referred to Jews.

You've interpreted it as including Arabs, but are obviously too young and uninformed to know the truth as stated by the OED.

Anti-zionism IS antisemitism because the zionism is at the roots of the Jewish religion.

You're just looking for the best way in which to defend antisemitism and all it's hateful aspects.

35. james said:

well, you are right, i wasnt alive in the "early 20th century".

I still stand by my arguments, criticism of a political ideoligy is not racist or prejudiced ("anti-semitist"). In my opinion what the zionists have created is a politcial and moral shambles. How can you call the forced exodus of the palestinian people 'legal'. What a joke. The facism presented by zionists, who seem to think that this is acceptable to do such things, is a disgrace. The argument presented by zionists is so hypocritical it borders on fanatical. You have no right to invade and occupy a country and expect 'peace' with its rightful inhabitants.

JP please dont forget that israel would be still a dream if it was not for all your atheist and christian supporters in the U.N foolishly passing the resolution that states your claim to palestine.

Hats off to JP for hosting this debate and allowing opinions from all sides to be presented.

36. Lee Kaplan said:

James, the separation of anti-Zionism from anti-Semtism was a concoction of Arab propaganda ministries to get around accusations of anti-Semitism in the western world where it is not policitcally correct. It's a way to attack Jews for being Jews without having the stigma of the anti-Semite. It's really quite clever.

Only anti-Semties, and sophists who can't see the forest for the trees adhere to the nonsense of "anti-Zionism is not anti-Semtiism." Some of these people, sadly, as even Jews.

What's truly funny is reading letters from anti-Israel activists, be they Jews or gentiles who write templated letters from the Arab propaganda ministries that say "Zionism is an outdated and racist ideology." This from racists and totalitarian ideologues yet.
Zionism IS outdated in the sense that Israel is now a fact. Zionism today means Jews living inside Israel. advocating their deportation or murder as Jews who "do not belong there (Israel) is proof positive that antu-Zionism is anti-Semitism." You can't argue nonesense while Jews are murdered and deported in the Middle East.