Israpundit: Are Jews heading for another Holocaust

Are Jews heading for another Holocaust

by Gary Zedak, ex pat Israeli

Following “Felix takes Israpundit to task”, by Felix Quigley

The subject of the post was whether a new Holocaust is being prepared against the Jews.

Let me quote: “…a new Holocaust is being prepared against the Jews.” Meaning, that the stage is being set for destruction of the third Jewish Commonwealth in the land of Israel. And, “The PLO which is the creation of the US elite …” is the tool of that destruction. Again, “In the elections to the Palestinian Authority Bush and Rice are supporting Hamas, the organization which is determined on Jewish genocide.” Ergo, US elite is staging this effort of destruction.

Felix, I could not agree more with you and Francisco Gil-White. Let me drop my two cents to this conversation by trying to shed some light on the confusion brought in by some other comments. Also, the main question is what can and should be done. For that we need, firstly, to see clearly what is the (power) “game” going on in the region, who are the players and how it is played. Of course, the “game” is some model of reality.

It is preposterous to say that US seeks destruction of Israel. However, led by US elite “…a new Holocaust is being prepared against the Jews.” Both statements are true and the apparent contradiction between them is a source of the confusion and misunderstanding of what is going on. Let me clarify.

Firstly, let me emphasize the distinction between ‘elite’ and ‘people’ discussed in some comments of this thread. Society, any society, is complex system of relationships between individuals and variety of groupings defined as families, businesses, companies, conglomerates, government agencies, religious associations, political parties, action groups, media organizations, … - whatever, the list is endless. Society, as a ‘country’ has complex relationships, including wars, with other ‘countries’ or with groupings in other countries. Nevertheless, the ‘elite’, or more correctly the ruling elite, can be easily defined or identified as consisting of top government officials – elected or appointed, their advisors, influential think tanks and associations, lobbyists, foreign agents – declared or disguised, wealthy individuals or organizations that use their wealth to influence decisions, etc.

Collectively, elite does what it finds right to do, perceiving that they, the elite, are the ‘country’. And of course, elite plays domination games: among themselves and with elite of other countries. These games are neither transparent nor secret. These are not conspiracies, though occasionally there is a place for that too. As in any game the end results are not known in advance, and are not necessarily, to say the least, conform to ‘people’ expectation, needs, beliefs or wishes. Since the objectives and the strategies of the games are not transparent, it feels as if many people have “wool pooled over their eyes”.

The main or “master game” played by US elite in relation to other countries could be named as “empire” game. US is empire. This does not mean it is bad or good. It is “empire in denial” as termed by Niall Ferguson in his 2004 book “Colossus – the Rise and Fall of the American Empire”. It is “in denial” because the US led by the elite does what other empires were doing during the history, though it denies that its behavior is imperialistic. US increasingly manipulates Israel’s internal politics and controls Israel to the degree of total disregard of its sovereignty. US presents it as helping its “best ally and friend” to achieve peace with its neighbors. I guess “best ally and friend” is a euphemism for vassal.

The war in Iraq is to bring “freedom and democracy” to Iraqi people. Before that it was to liberate Iraqis from Saddam Hussein’s regime and to find WMD. Now Iraq had its elections, has its constitution, and it is forming its federal government. Next, will US leave Iraq to its fate (with likelihood to fall apart into three pieces with Shiite Islamic republic as one of them)? You may bet it will not, because this is not the game. So, what is the game – oil? Would this be true, it would fit so nicely in the leftist theories that evil empire Amerikka is after poor Iraqi’s oil. Though oil is a factor, the game is not about controlling oil supply from Middle East to US.

The game is about NOT letting other powers or “empires” – present and emerging – to gain control of this strategically important region. Other powers are Russia (declining), China (rising), and (potentially) India. Iran is a grand prize in this game, and this notion may support Francisco’s claim that at least up to recent time US was “protecting” Iran. But situation is changing rapidly – Iran now is a new kid on the block. Iran has aspirations of its own to become a metropolis of the emerging Islamic “empire”. Here lies a significance of Iran getting its own atomic bomb – one cannot be respected as “empire” without having the BOMB. We are yet to see how this new game will be played out.

How Israel fits in this game? Well, it does not – at least since 1978’s “peace” treaty with Egypt, US replacing Soviets as Egypt’s patron, and 1980s disintegration of Soviet Union. Since then Israel is perceived by US ruling elite more and more as pain in the butt or, better, as “shitty little country” (some Brit said that) with “expansionist” tendencies, hated by the whole Arab world. In other words its mere existence in the region spoils the game by drawing too much energy to this “endless cycle of violence” between Israelis and “Palestinians”. Israel became a party pooper.

But wait, wait … maybe I am carried away. Aren’t we in “war on terror”? Hasn’t G.W. Bush told us after September 11 that the objective is to catch or kill these terrorists who are inspired by perverted version of otherwise peaceful religion Islam? Isn’t that for we went firstly to Afghanistan and then to Iraq? We were also told that we are for a long haul in this war because “terrorists” are holed in caves and other hiding places and it may take years or even tens of years to dig them out. How many people believe this nice and simple picture of who is the bad guy and who is the good one? Apparently, not too many, since the Bush’s approval ratings have dropped below 40%. To improve the ratings Bush recently gave a series of speeches “explaining” the war in Iraq. In Iraq the “terrorists” became “insurgents” or even “Islamofascists” opposing freedom and democracy. That helped – the ratings went up.

Israel has its own “terrorists”. These are some crazy individuals in “occupied” territories of Judea, Samaria, and Gaza strip, who have this special penchant to blow themselves in buses and other public places filled with Jews. Well, they are not exactly doing it upon individual initiative. They are kind of organized in “NGOs” like PATAH, Al Akza Brigades, Islamic Jihad, PFLP, Hamas, and others – with PLO as the “respectful” political front. Their member’s favorite pastime activity of killing Jews is branded as ‘Intifada’ meaning “Uprising”. And they are not exactly terrorist organizations since they also do a lot of social work, especially of supporting the families of the homicide bombers. Also, their objective is to liberate Palestine (what is it by the way?) from Israeli occupation. This definitely qualifies them as “freedom fighters”. Oh, forgot to mention, they have nothing to do with Palestinian Authority (PA), which strives to live in peace with Israel!

Now, Bush’s doctrine of “bringing Freedom and Democracy to Middle East” reached “Palestinians” too. On January 26, 2006, they will have “elections”. HAMAS is expected to be a clear winner. Just a reminder, HAMAS is on US list of terrorist organizations. After the elections US can proceed with creation of the “free”, “democratic” and “contiguous” Palestinian State. It has to be Judenrein, because, see, Arabs are extremely “sensitive” to Jews among them, and we want to respect their “sensitivity”, don’t we? Therefore, Jewish “illegal” settlers in Samaria and Judea have to leave. In Gaza Sharon’s government already took care of that. Halleluiah, State of Israel will eventually shrink to the “natural” size it deserves. What these f… Jews in ME think that they are empire? Ask James Baker – he knows.

OK, so State of Israel will shrink, but “Israeli-Palestinian conflict” will be resolved. The newborn Palestinian state perhaps will be not exactly peaceful in the beginning, but eventually it will calm down, and “two People (who is the second?) in two States” will thrive side by side in peace. What about PLO’s, HAMAS’s and others’ declared commitment to destroy Israel? Well, once they will have their state, they will forget about it. Ignore that perhaps 99% of the “Palestinians” are resolute to “throw the Jews out”.

As delusional this picture looks, not only the players in Washington subscribe to it. About 50% of Israelis trust their leadership to do the right thing, and if it means “two States to two People”, than be it so. Whether they are more than 50%, i.e. majority, or much less than 50%, is currently unknown. Neither this question will be answered in the upcoming elections in Israel on March 28, 2006, because in the endgame there is really not much difference between the contenders: on the left – ‘Kadima’ and ‘Labor’, and, presumably on the right – ‘Likud’. And why is it so? Because, despite some ideological and agenda differences between major parties in Israeli political establishment, they all have one thing in common: genuflection before Washington, which eloquently translates to “kissing the ass of whoever is in power in Washington”.

Keeping in mind that in terms of economy Israel today is fairly self-sustained even without financial foreign aid from US, the question is why Israel’s ruling elite genuflects that much before US. Is it because Israel might need US military to protect it from massive attack by Arab countries, something like an updated version of the 1967 war? Of course not! Not only the elite but also practically everybody in Israel does not believe that US would or even be able to do that. Neither it is necessary. Neither it is Israel’s dependence on arms supply from US, particularly airplanes. Firstly because this dependence is not that big as it might look, and secondly because using arms supply as a leverage to force US will on Israel is two edged sword, at least in the long run. Than what is it?

The answer is in history of Israeli political establishment and its clinging to Herzlian (Theodore Herzel) philosophy that Jewish state can be reestablished and exist only under aegis of world powers. The roots of Israeli political establishment are in so-called Labor-Zionist movement who’s most prominent and notorious political manifestation was Ben- Gurion’s ‘MAPAI.’ party. Labor-Zionists resisted the notion of Jewish national home in Israel as independent state almost up until the official declaration of the State of Israel in 1948. Their chief interest was to stay in power to be able to conduct that cute experiment in social engineering of creating new socialist Jewish society. Nationalism and independence were not their first priority. Majority of Israeli politicians today still have this penchant for patronage by the big power. Former colonial Britain has been replaced by US.

So far it sounds pretty innocent, though not necessarily nice. The problem is that on the world theater the leadership that is preoccupied to stay in power even on the expense of national sovereignty can easily become perfidious and lead its people to disaster. The first precedent was already in 1932-1933 when Labor-Zionists in Palestine sabotaged boycott of then yet shaky Nazi rule in Germany by signing with Nazis what later became ‘Transfer Agreement’. This is the subject of the 1984 same name book by Edwin Black Later in 1943-4 Labor-Zionists ignored the cry for help from Hungarian Jewry, majority of which was eventually sent to Nazi gas chambers, preferring to keep good relationships with British. This is the subject of another great book named ‘Perfidy’ by Ben Hecht (1961). During WWII Labor-Zionists did nothing about holocaust in progress in Europe, not even calling attention to it – in order not to annoy their British masters. In that sense they were not different from American Jewry leadership of those days who did not want to disturb Roosevelt’s administration (as if that would help). US was not even in hurry to engage Germans in Europe until “Russkis” begun to win and were advancing too fast toward Europe (“empire” game!). In 1947 during Israeli Independence war Ben Gurion ordered to sink ‘Altalena’ ship carrying weapons desperately needed by Jewish fighters especially those on Jerusalem front. He did it in order to disparage his political rival Begin, head of ‘Herut’ revisionist party, whose people bought the weapons and organized that shipment, and who could threaten the power hold by his Labor-Zionist ‘MAPAI’ party. Again, staying in power was more important than national interest.

Later, in 1980s and 90s the political establishment on both sides of the political spectrum in Israel had learned that in order to keep the power it is essential to have Washington’s blessing. Thus its already pusillanimous behavior has been enhanced even more by competition between rivals who is the better butt kisser in Washington. Consequently, the “players” in Washington could in 1995 easily shove down the throat of Israeli people the “Oslo Accord”, followed by “Wye agreement”, followed by “Road map”.

Recently, this desperate clinging to power, this time by Sharon government, manifested itself in gruesome indignity of expelling Jews from their homes in Gush Katif in Gaza strip. Though tactical or strategic reasoning of this move remains unknown, or was it driven mostly by desire to be liked by the (leftist) media and thus to avoid prosecution due the criminal charges pending against Sharon’s family, or was he (Sharon) plain senile, one thing is sure: it pleasantly surprised and pleased the players in Washington and the proponents of the ‘Road Map’ in Europe. These days, the icing on the cake is attempts of the Sharon’s “circle” and its acolytes to spin the brain-dead Sharon as if he is still functioning in order to continue to stay in power in his name.

Why US is doing all that to Israel? The answer has multiple tiers (thus making it stronger): it can do it – Israel would comply with anything; Saudis want it; Saudi hate Jews; Saudi ruling family and Bush family are buddies and business partners; Saudis spend a lot of money financing variety of think tanks that advise Administration; Saudis are author of the “Road Map” (“Abdullah’s Plan”); having Israeli-Palestinian “conflict” resolved Arab world will have less reasons to hate America; the mainstream media does not like Israel because Israel oppresses “peace and freedom loving” Palestinians and it also took over “their” land; liberals do not like Israel for the same reason; Israel is not a factor in the “empire” game; the Jews became too cocky – it is time to show them who is the boss (this is an anti-Semitic underlining that always exist); there is no friendship between nations – only interests; etc.

Despite all the think tanks, advisors, CFR and State Department “experts”, or perhaps thanks to them, US as an “empire” has pretty sloppy and inconsistent record of identifying its friends or foes, its foes intensions, and of the threats as real or false. By the end of WWII it made a questionable deal with Soviets by practically selling a bunch of East European countries into communist-totalitarian slavery. Was it just because Red Army came there first and US did not want to annoy its Soviet ally of those days, or was it because Roosevelt perceived ‘Uncle Joe’ (Stalin) as a nice man and friend? This is not important. What important is that people of those countries remained in Soviets “paradise” misery for forty years and even now they have yet a long way to recuperate.

In 1950 Stalin easily decided to gamble on war by its proxy, North Korea, because US previously indicated that it would assent to division of the Korean Peninsula similar to the division of Germany before. In response to this plain Communist aggression the political elite in Washington decided to conduct a “limited war” [ref: Ferguson]. At least the result was not complete defeat, like later in Vietnam. In Vietnam it interpreted the Ho Chi Min’s intentions as Communist aggression backed by China and Soviets, when it really was a nationalistic movement for independence. But above all, Vietnam or Indochina becoming communist appeared to be strategically unimportant for US.

In 1948 Truman voted in UN for establishment of the State of Israel, against the recommendation by the State Department, chiefly because Soviets voted for it saying (Gromyko speech), in rare moment of sincere identification with the fallen victims of the WWII, that they are doing it to bring justice for six million Jews gassed by Nazis. In 1956 Middle East war over nationalization of the Suez Canal by Nasser, US went against Britain and France (and thus against Israel too) because of the perception that by supporting them it would drive the whole Middle East in Soviet hands. Following the 1974 Yom Kippur War US shoved down the throat of Israel’s Prime Minister Begin the “peace treaty” with Egypt (1978), thus nullifying the war results by returning Sinai Peninsula to Egypt, just to get Egypt away from Soviets. In “Clinton Wars” in Yugoslavia in 1990s US caused creation of Islamofascist base in Kosovo and Bosnia, disregarding Serbia’s hundreds of years sovereignty over the Kosovo province – just to gain over Russia.

Now we are in “war on terror”. Who are the “terrorists”? Who is the enemy? Al-Keida? In Iraq is it “war on terror” or civil war? Each time we turn around we found that “terrorists” are Saudis or have something to do with Saudis. Anyway, 99% of them are Arabs. Who funds the “terrorists”? All the signs point that most of the money comes from Saudi Arabia, as “private” donations from wealthy Saudi families members. But wealthy Saudi families constitute Saudi’s ruling elite, and many of their members are government officials. So perhaps Saudi Arabia is an enemy. Let’s bomb them! Not so fast, there is oil factor and besides, Saudi Arabia is our “loyal ally and friend”. Who we are fighting, than? Muslims? No, Islam is “peaceful religion”! Perhaps, Islamofascists (whatever does it mean)? But, islamofascism is ideology or religion. You can’t bomb ideology or religion. You bomb or shoot people. Who are these people? Who or what inspires them? Who sends or leads them?

These are some of many puzzling questions and exciting situations Washington players face. While they play, something very real but more benign and politically incorrect happens. It is massive legal or illegal (mostly) immigration of Arabs to Europe. The right word would be ‘invasion’. It is on such big scale that it threatens to tear Europe upside down. If you look in the history, that kind of things has happened. That we are in post-industrial age does not mean it cannot happen again. This is the fate that Oriana Fallaci warns about. But Cassandra was and remains unpopular. The cause of this invasion has more to do with big excess of population Arab countries produce, than with Islamic indoctrination per se. Islam is only a tool to rationalize invasion, and it always was such since its inception. The population excess happens because in most of the Arab countries the society is so dysfunctional, by western standards, that it is unable to sustain its population grow. Emigration is the easy way out.

Same way the “Palestinian state”, if and when it will be established, will be swarmed by “freedom fighters” coming from all over the Middle East. With Israeli government and upper layer of the military looking for US approval for any significant move and have its hands tied by notion of “low intensity combat” (i.e. ‘limited war’) and by constrain to avoid “collateral” damage at any cost (Jewish blood is cheaper!) – how much Israeli military might will worth? Collateral damage means killing innocent civilians. There are certainly some innocent civilians among Arabs in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza, but how many are there after at least fifteen years of vicious brainwashing to kill “the Jews – sons of pigs”! Compare it with only eight years that Hitler needed to convert the whole Germany into Nazi supporters and to convince Germans that Jews are cause of all their troubles.

It is really a survival of the State of Israel at stake. The war between Israelis and Arabs, whatever form it will take, is inevitable. It has already begun. To have a decent chance to win Israelis have to stop listening to their government. Israelis have to internalize that country’s ruling elite, including the top military echelon, is treacherous, pusillanimous, and incompetent leading the people to abyss. Israeli “democratic” elections process cannot change the situation, because it is ‘musical chairs’ game: the players change but the policy, agenda and incompetence remain. Seems that nothing short of civil rebellion or upheaval, whatever form it would take, will work. And above all, Israel has to desist with the blind obedience to the players in Washington. The historical record of their decision-making shows that basically they have no freaking idea what they are doing.

Gary Z, Atlanta

Posted by Ted Belman at January 15, 2006 12:03 AM

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Comments

1. Peretz Rickett said:

Spot-on Gary. Now, un-"ex-pat" yourself and get home to help the rest of us like-minded Jews change the face of the state here.

Posted by: Peretz Rickett on January 15, 2006 02:29 AM

2. BobW said:

Shalom Gary,

The infamous quote "that shitty little country, Israel." was said by the former French Ambassador to the UK, Daniel Bernard. It was said during a conversation with Conrad Black, owner of the Daily Telegraph newspaper.

Kol tuv,
BobW

Posted by: BobW on January 15, 2006 04:20 AM

3. Roy C Hudson said:

Reading the above article, "Are the Jews Headed for another Holocaust.??"
If they Follow the Gentile Governments that are now Being lead by Mr, G.W.Bush.
and his Vision, The Road Map to Peace, They Are going to be in Big," Jacobs Trouble".
I was Born and raised in the USA I love America, Before 1945.and ever sence, Israel
has Been the Subject of the Non-Jews around this world. The Leadership of the USA is
now the Last one to Build it's case against Israel. Every Enemy that has ever come
against Israel This Day, The USA is leading them ALL, against Israel. Mr. Bush has
Flip-Flopped with his Plans many times against Israel and the Jews, to Please the
Enemy of the Holy Land and the Holy Word of God and his People. The above article is
as good as it gets. No one should be Ignorant of the Facts if they would Read what
this man has set to Print. Israel Can't Follow the Leader of the Gentile's any more.
I am a Gentile, I am ashamed of the Leadership of the Politicians, The Business Men,
and the So called God Called Preachers sence I was 15 yeaes old. I was Born Dec,15/32
I have watched the USA through the Pages of the Right Holy Book. That William Tyndale
Died for if no other would. America Has Lost it's way.!!! America is not Actually a
Leader now. They are Following the Dictations of the Leadership of Brussels Belgium.
and The Vatician City of Rome. If I have to say so myself. It seems that no one has
the Guts to point out the True Enemy of Israel until Israel has used up all it has
to defend itself in the near future, Gas and Oil is a big thing with the EU and the
USA, The Global Plans of the EU, The "RULE of LAW" set up in 1978-1985-1992,and now
in 2006-on. All the Enemy Of Israel knows that Israel Can't follow the Rule of Law
set up by the leadership of Brussels Belgium 1985-1995. and now is ready to be used
on Israel """ What is 1992,? 1992 is the 500 years of the Discovery of the New World.
1492-1992= the 500 years, "Gentle men, We are on the Move again." The Jews was being
put out of the EU, and God moved them to Here in the now,USA, and the same people
along with the Moslam are coming down on Israel for the Final act. The so called"God
called Preachers don't hav the Guts to cross the true enemy of Israel. America is
being used by the EU today, Mr.G.w. Bush Is pushing the Rule of Law now 24/7/365.!!!
That is the big trap for Israel as a Democratic nation, and Hague Netherland Justice
can't wait to Condemn Israel for Breaking the Rule of Law to Please God. I am Glad the
Universal Working Language in in English. I can Have my Holy Bible until the USA falls
and turns the Global Leadership over to the EU Think Tank that is calling the shots
from 1945,AD. Israel, Read the Mans Letter and send a copy to Mr.G.W.Bush and let them
Know the News is out.!!The Politicians,the Bankers,the Business Men, and the Preachers
Have conspired and sold out the USA to The EU, the No 1 Enemy of Israel with the Global
RULE of LAW. Hey,This has been my own personal Study, America Has to fall and it will.
Mr. G w Bush is fighting a war that can't be won as long as there is a Koran Book.and
he is fighting the war on Credit, Arming the Enemy Enemy of Israel with USA Money and
the Blood of our Kids.!!!!! How stupid can they be,??? "Roy C. Hudson. Jan,15/06 USA."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

Posted by: Roy C Hudson on January 15, 2006 05:55 AM

4. Felix Quigley said:

Very well done indeed Gary.

I agree with 99.99 per cent. I add one or two items.

The issue of whether the US and the EU (there are differences but not really fundamental) is prepared to work with Islamofascism I think is not possible to deny, because we have the objective evidence (not solely but certainly from www.tenc.net). Firstly in its relations with the Nazis post war after it had defeated the Nazi regime. Secondly in relation to Hajj Amin el Husseini. Then Afghanistan where they imported the Wahhabis of Bin Laden, then Yugoslavia where they worked on many fronts: the Nazis of Croatia, the Muslim, if not quite Islamofascist as yet, terrorists of the KLA of Kosova cum Albania, and especially and above all with the ex nazi youth and avowed Islamofascist or Islamist Izetbegovic.

Where Jared and Francisco have made a small error among great work is that they have pictured this elite (I prefer ruling class) as being if not all powerful then very powerful. Actually I believe that the US and EU operate from a position of great weakness and a lot of your post above proves the point. But being weak brings with it also a certain power born of desparation. Certainly danger!

A lot of this desparation springs from the economic realities that the US faces on the world market. There is also a very unstable base underpinning these modern economies, because after Nixon scrapped the Bretton Woods Agreement and ended the connection between the dollar and gold society is based largely on credit, which can be moved in and out, around the world, at the flick of a computer button. Then there is the demands of an American working class and middle class with the near insoluble issue of pensions etc. which are not getting better!

What I have continually emphasised here is that this is not just a Jewish issue. We are really dealing with a descent into barbarism and this is on the cards for all nationalities including my own. But anti-Semitism has always been used as a scapegoat for the hidden plans of the ruling classes, it has been used both conscously and subconscously and that is the same today. I keep emphasising the lessons of Yugoslavia since it is within our recent memory and also because it was kind of a trial run, the Serb hatred stirred up by the Media was related to anti-Semitism. That also enabled us to have a look at the Jewish establishment. Do not forget that the Serbs Jews Romany and Homosexuals went into those Death Camps together and that Hajj Amin was heavily involved in Yugoslavia. Yet the Jewish establishment supported and still support that NATO war in Yugoslavia.

Ted and Israpundit is doing everything he can to develop the discussion. This is the best of the Jewish tradition. It is really quite wonderful. You do not have anything like this openness of discussion, for example, in my own country, where the neoLeft around Sluggerotoole actually works to cut off any discussion. I mean the neoLeft have poisoned many Irish minds on the victimhood of the Palestinians and logically from their view warped as it is why would they open up for a few facts.

I asked on another discussion here a simple and pretty fundamental question.

I will ask it again but this time I will preface it by pointing out the reality on this website Israpundit which was put together by Joseph and others and now Ted is doing a good job in developing.

What is this reality,the most important aspect of reality, or truth, about this site. It is made up of people who want to save the Jewish state but who have very different ideas about how that can be done.

Every person on this site has had different life experiences and so they enter into discussions here with very differing programmes of action in relation to Israel.

So I asked how can Israel be saved. I did not ask the question in a vacumn either. I wrapped it up for the sake of clarity in discussion in the report which is available on the DEBKAfile which suggests to me that the Government of the United States is now running Israel.

That may be a bit of an exaggeration, but not much, if the DEBKAfile report is correct, and I have never known its reports to be far wrong. So here I will reproduce a little more of the Debkafile report in question:

"DEBKAfile Exclusive: Bush forces Hamas down Israel’s throat in Jerusalem. Olmert government is stunned

January 9, 2006, 11:53 PM (GMT+02:00)

Sunday night Jan 8, US secretary of state Condoleezza Rice discussed the forthcoming Palestinian elections to the legislative council on the telephone with Palestinian Authority chairman Abu Mazen.

Jerusalem was not briefed, DEBKAfile’s political sources report.

Twelve hours later, the US consul in Jerusalem Jacob Walles visited Abu Mazen’s office in Ramallah with an oral message from President George W. Bush. According to our sources, it was a presidential guarantee that all the Palestinian parties running for election on Jan 25 would be allowed to campaign openly in East Jerusalem, eligible voters in the city would be permitted to cast their votes through local post offices, and the voter slips of all Palestinian parties without exception would be available in the balloting booths.

The Israeli government was not informed of the extraordinary step taken by Bush over its head and in respect of Israeli sovereign territory.

The step has some disturbing implications:

1. The Bush administration took advantage of Ehud Olmert’s having been less than a week in the job of acting prime minister and treated his reluctance to undertake firm decisions - as long as prime minister Ariel Sharon’s condition was uncertain -as a leadership vacuum in Jerusalem. Without a word, administration officials marked down the goings-on around Hadassah hospital in Jerusalem and Olmert’s slowness to rise to the challenge.

3. Olmert’s failure to come down decisively on the Jerusalem issue has a serious consequence: Washington’s intercession enables the terrorist Hamas group to fly its green flags and hold rallies on Temple Mount with its standard calls for jihad against Israel, as well as piling its voter slips at Israeli government post offices as an option for the Palestinian voter. By this device, the backhanded recognition of a Palestinian terrorist organization sworn to destroy the Jewish state has been thrust down the interim government’s throat.

4. The Bush administration showed no consideration for Olmert’s efforts to find his feet as head of government, bid for the leadership of Kadima party and fight a tough election.

Governing circles in Jerusalem were stunned by the White House action. They asked if Bush wanted Binyamin Netanyahu and Likud to win the March election having awarded him the edge on the Jerusalem issue. Part of the shock derived from the Israeli ministers’ mistaken conviction that Abu Mazen would postpone the election to prevent the Hamas beating his ruling Fatah. DEBKAfile’s sources repeatedly reported that the White House would insist on the Palestinian vote taking place on schedule – even at the price of a Hamas win and regardless of Sharon’s indisposition and a transitional administration very much at sea in Jerusalem..."

So the Government of America sees Israel as perhaps its central Federal Home Government sees Texas. Except perhaps more so.

All political parties would be able to campaign openly and freely in East Jerusalem. All means All. Every one of them. All those parties, not just Hamas, are tainted with Jewish blood. Make of that as you will!

The mechanism for this vote. Post Offices. But not like licking a stamp and putting it on an envelope. No, as we have seen, this involves transforming post offices temporarily into polling stations, with party officialdom in attendance, the votes at the end not “posted” but the boxes sealed and carted off. In other words the Post Office thing is a ruse, a deception.

And finally the voter slips of ALL parties made available at the count. No ambiguity here. Emphasis as I noted on ALL.

That IS the context in which I pose the question. If the US Government can decide on this issue, which concerns the sovereignty of the state, and indeed the boundaries of the state, of what use then is Israel.

It is no longer a sovereign state!

So what then is the solution. What IS the future path which can bring success?

Abu Omri may be gone from politics. Hopefully because of past service when he was not corrupted he recovers enough to live out his days with his family at his ranch. But Abu Omri was no more than one cog in the apparatus of betrayal which has become a significant section of the leadership in Israel and in the Diaspora.

Evidence of this may or rather will come today when the Olmert Cabinet will march in, or rather slope in, and ratify the above decision taken by the US Government.

That is Israel proper at the moment, more or less condensed in this pathetic episode. And the Diaspora.

Here I draw for my guide two items.

Number 1 Clinton after Jews were murdered in the hundreds and even thousands by those same terrorists (remember ALL) delivered that speech to that applause at the Waldorf.

And about that kind of “leadership” is it really necessary to say much more!

Number 2 piece of evidence which I call into play in my prognosis of the problem is a bit trickier! It involves the general Jewish Diaspora position towards the NATO war against Yugoslavia.

I do not like discusing conspiracy in the abstract. When I discuss conspiracy I like to do it in relation to concrete issues. There are two concrete examples that I like to use to prove my point that modern class-based politics is based and run through conspiracy of the ruling classes or elites. One of these is Deir Yassin. The other is Yugoslavia. Even a principled Jewish writer like David Gerstman has bought into this conspiracy on Yugoslavia. And then not only has bought in but in his article on the degeneraqte Fisk actually contributes to the conspiracy and myths surrounding the NATO war against Yugoslavia, the vilification of the Serbs and the vilification of Milosevic (who was no friend of Israel but that is another matter entirely). So I reckon there are big problems on the issue of leadership in the Diaspora.

We have a leadership to the Jews inside Israel and a leadership in the Diaspora. Both of these are fatal to the future of the Jews.

To expose and replace such leadership is the necessary and unavoidable prerequisite for any progress in defending Israel and the Jews. That is not the end but at least it may be the beginning! How that can be done? There I am at my weakest but perhaps a start is made by defining the problem. I personally was much encouraged by the youthful Jews who opposed Abu Omri's Stasi at the time of the Gaza betrayal.

Also, you are dead right, the roots lie very deep.As you say it is necessary to go back into the very origins, certainly to Herzl and Weizmann, exactly as you put it, but to my mind even more so to the differences between Marx and Hess (Hess was correct) and the explosive differences between Lenin and the Bund (The Bolsheviks were wrong)

Posted by: Felix Quigley on January 15, 2006 06:52 AM

5. American Jews said:

I believe that American Jews such as Abramovitz, Albright, Soros, Rubin and the rest of the ICC group are ones that a guilty for trivializing holocaust. They called Srebrenica in Bosnia Holocaust and Genocide - I am yet to see when did Nazi let Jewish women and children go. They called Kosovo genocide only to show that less than 5000 dead in Kosovo that includes solders on both sides AND civilian deaths.
Soros is promotion Iranian society to west and is investing millions in that process. (the pro-mullah American-Iranian Council joined forces with George Soros's Open Society Institute to host Javad Zarif, Iran's ambassador to the United Nations, to give a talk titled, "The View from Tehran." ...)
By trivializing what genocide and holocaust is Jewish people are faced with dander that world will forget what happen in Germany and Europe in WWII. By making equal Hitler and Milosevic there are two things happening – first demonizing of the Serbian people whose patriarch Gavrilo Dozic was himself a prisoner in Dahau concentration camp and minimizing Hitler and German crimes.
So I do wonder when will Jewish Congress and state speak their objection to destroying memory of Holocaust?

Posted by: American Jews on January 15, 2006 09:36 AM

6. BobW said:

Shalom American Jews,

You've got my support.

I could not say it any better.

Soros is a danger.

Kol tuv,
BobW

Posted by: BobW on January 15, 2006 11:18 AM

7. tina toto said:

Yes, jews are going towards another holocoust, yes, and this time they are not the victims but the "creators" of the devastating suffering of the palestinian people. I know you will not publish this, because you are scared to admitt the truth, but as an Israeli born 53 year old teacher and mother I can only say that the policies reflected in this article and the comments to it, voiced by ultra rightists, jews and christians, have an apocalyptic, messianic and racist tone. The hard facts, as I wittness them daily, is that Israel has created a getto of 1 million palestinians in Gaza, and another one in the north of the west bank, which is under siege of the Israeli Occupation army. You might agree to this, you might even want more than this. But you don't have the minimal decency or courage to call the policies you are advocating apartheid, racism and ethnic cleansing.
As an Israeli citizen I object and oppose your policies, I refuse that you speak about the general good of Israel in my name. You don't understand anything about the damages,moral and economical and social that yourpolicies are creating.

Posted by: tina toto on January 15, 2006 11:51 AM

8. BobW said:

Shalom Tina,

Believe it or not, I partly agree with you.

I've commented above but I'm no "ultra-rightist".

Israel's policies causing "moral and economical and social" damages is an area needing review. I strongly believe the Government of Israel's policy to allow people like Wafa al-Bis to receive medical care at Soroka Hospital, Beersheva, Israel continues to be a danger to all - Arabs, Jews, secularists, Christians, and so forth.

Wafa al-Bis was a 21 year old Arab woman from Gaza who received medical care at Soroka Hospital. Last June, she was caught at Erez Crossing, Gaza with explosives. She confessed to an attempt to enter Soroka Hospital, Beersheva and detonate her explosives.

Wafa al-Bis entered into Green Line Israel for medical care under a permit issued under the policies of the Government of Israel.

At any hour on the clock, this hospital has present in it Arabs, Jews, secularists, Christians and et cetra.

The young 21 year old Wafa al-Bis is a barbarian.

Again, I partly agree with you. I hope for safety and prosperty for you and your family.

Kol tuv,
BobW

Posted by: BobW on January 15, 2006 12:14 PM

9. Ted Belman said:

I readily welcome Gary Zedak to our Israpundit family. There is only one issue I differ on. He wrote, "And why is it so? Because, despite some ideological and agenda differences between major parties in Israeli political establishment, they all have one thing in common: genuflection before Washington, which eloquently translates to “kissing the ass of whoever is in power in Washington”. " I don't believe that the problem is that our leaders genuflect to Washington. Likud is crowding the center not as genuflection to Washinton but to the Israeli electorate. He believes only a centrist party can garner the most votes. This surprises me because, the most recent poll Dec 1/05 posted by IMRA.

67% Oppose Unilateral Withdrawal if Road Map Impasse Over Security

"A poll of a representative sample of 500 adult Israeli Jews carried out by Smith Research & Consulting on 29-30 November and sponsored by ZOA - The Zionist Organization of America - finds that 67% oppose carrying out a significant unilateral withdrawal from Judea and Samaria if it is not possible to advance in negotiations with the Palestinians on the basis of the Road Map after the elections because the PA fails to fight terror. 28% support carrying out a significant unilateral withdrawal under those circumstances. Among those who indicated that they plan to vote for Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's Kadima Party, 54% oppose and 37% support carrying out a significant unilateral withdrawal under those circumstances."

Likud doesn't seem to be trying to capitalize on this mood. Instead it assumes that the people want to pursue "peace" more than they want to pursue "security" and certainly more than they want to pursue a "land grab".

In conclusion, Likud, our only hope, wants to follow the people rather then to lead the people.

Posted by: Ted Belman on January 15, 2006 12:36 PM

10. YH said:

Jews, Christian and Muslims co-existed throughout the Arab world for thousands of years. No holocaust and atrocities committed in Arab lands against Jews or Christians.
Jews could easily live among the Arabs in the Arab worlds in a democratic states. But Zionists choose wars, expelled Palestinian and took their land to form the Zionist state, Israel. History tells us that states imposed by force and continue to exist by force will not survive? The Zionist state can alter its policy (let Jews and Palestinian live in one state, one person one vote) thereby ensuring long term relationship between Muslims and Jews. In this way Jews can live not only in Palestine (Israel) but in the entire Middle East.
This is the real security for Jews not only in Israel but around the world.

Posted by: YH on January 15, 2006 03:36 PM

11. Ed D said:

To Gary Zedak,
Your article, which I understand, is very truthful and enlightning. Based on what you have said, I enterpret that to mean that nothing changes in the US regardless of who's in power, keeping Israel on a leash for the betterment of the interests of the US is ongoing. I wish that that were untrue, but I think you to be right on.

I have appealed to the military officers of the IDF not to obey the commands of the Israeli government, recognizing that it is wrong to disobey command orders when they are legitimate; however, I believe thes orders were handed down because they were ordered by G. Bush and the Baker foundation, which in my eyes make them illigitamite. By obeying these orders, the IDF could be compared to the Nazi SS who said that they only followed orders. Israel is the sacreficial lamb for keeping the US in control and in good standing with King Abdullah.

Today, I feel dismayed by Olmert giving in to the demands by Bush to allow the Arabs in Jersalem to vote. It matters not which Arab party wins, it is implied that East Jerusalem belongs to the Arabs. Where is G-d when we need another miricle?

Posted by: Ed D on January 15, 2006 03:51 PM

12. tina toto said:

Bob Shalom, I don't know Wafa al Bis' story. But I also do not know if I could refrain from exploding myself if I lived under similair conditions to those that most Palestinians live under today, could you? truthfully? here is a miniature example of 2 days in the lives of the palestinians living under jewish occupation as reported by ocha- the UN humanitarian organisation:
OCHA Weekly Briefing Notes 14 – 20 December 2005 | 2
• 16 December: A Palestinian man from An Nu’man (Bethlehem) captured by the IDF
Border Police on 11 December died of wounds sustained while in custody. The matter is
under investigation.
• 17 December: One 25-year-old Palestinian was injured in Kafr al Labad (Tulkarm) when
IDF opened fire during a search campaign.
• 17 December: One Palestinian was wounded when IDF fired two artillery shells towards
open areas southeast of Beit Hanoun (Gaza Strip).
• 17 December: One 22-year-old Palestinian male was killed and one injured in armed
clashes with the IDF near Erez crossing (Gaza Strip).
• 18 December: Three Palestinians were injured in IAF missile attacks into areas in Beth
Hanoun (Gaza Strip).
• 18 December: The IDF beat and injured two Palestinians in Hebron city.
• 18 December: Two Palestinian medics were injured on duty in an IAF missile attack on
the main entrance of the Bedouin village in Beth Lahia (Gaza Strip).
• 18 December: One 10-year-old Palestinian minor was injured in Balata camp (Nablus)
by an IDF dog during a search campaign.

Is that jewish, or is that barbaric?
and what future does the Israeli soldier have, an 18 year old boy or girl, when by duty of obeying his government's command his "search dog" attacks a 10 year old minor inside a refugee camp, by Nablus-a camp situated 25 k"m's east of Israel's official and recognised green line border?
What is this soldier doing there? Why does he have to be there?
And don't tell me that this is for security.
If Israel wanted security it would erect the 4 billion dollar "Security Wall" on the green line and check evry person passing thru. But Israel's present governement, funded by the Jewish community and by fundemental christians from the U.S.A, wants a border near Nablus, check the new Terminal being built 10 k"ms south,AT Tapuach.
This is not security, this is not a future, not for our children nor for the Palestinian's. And it costs us Israelis a lot of money. The "security" wall would cost half if erected on the green line.
If you wish safety and properity for me and my family and for all Israeli citizens living in the country you should oppose the Occupation of Palestinian Lands and call for a bilateral withdrawal by agreement.

Posted by: tina toto on January 15, 2006 07:34 PM

13. Jerusalem Posts said:

YH,

You say that "No holocaust and atrocities committed in Arab lands against Jews or Christians."

The truth is very different from what you believe. Millions of Jews were killed by Arabs ever since the time of Mohammed. Jews have been persecuted by Arabs throughout the middle east and there are far too many records to even try and disprove that fact.

In 1947 900,000 Arab Jews were expelled from their countries, and many of those who lived in Iraq had been there since the time of Nebuchadnezzar. In 1948, 600,000 Arab Jews went to live in Israel, they weren't kept as perpetual refugees by their religious brethren. The rest went to Europe, Canada and America.

Today in the middle east, countries like Jordan have no Jews, because they aren't allowed to live there, the same as Syria and Libya. Other Arab states have only a handful of Jews remaining and they're dying off.

During the war, the Nazis recruited Haj Amin Al Husseini who worked together with the Nazis both in Europe and the middle east and it was he who ENCOURAGED the Nazi genocide of the Jews. This is well documentated in the Nuremberg trials by Eichmans personal assistant.

So sadly, it's not only the Europeans who murdered millions of Jews, because the Arabs did the same, in the name of Islam.

Posted by: Jerusalem Posts on January 15, 2006 10:02 PM

14. Jerusalem Posts said:

Tina Toto, if you're an Israeli, and had lived there for 51 years, then you'd also have been aware that Arab terrorist against Israel started before 1967.

Arafat started plotting against Israel since he started his organisation in 1956.

Up to this present day, the Arabs have killed more Jews through terrorism, than the IDF has when it's had to defend it's own country.

Just look at the history of terrorism which started with the godfather of modern terrorism Yasser Arafat. There was Black September 1970 when he tried to overthrow King Hussein of Jordan, but that didn't work and the Jordanians killed 10,000 PLO. He tried the same tactics in Egypt and Iraq, but was thrown out of both countries. He slaughtered tens of thousands of Maronite Christians (many women, children, babies and elderly) in Lebanon, Damour being the best known PLO massacre - and yet these events are rarely acknowledged by anyone supporting terrorism.

They only remember Sabra and Shatilla - where most of the few hundred PLO killed by the Maronites in revenge for the cold blooded murder of their families and friends were armed men.

Both the PLO charter and Hamas charter call for the destruction of Israel and this is something that has never been amended.

Israel gained the territories during a defensive war. If the reverse had happened and the Arabs had occupied Israel, do you think that they'd treat the Jews as well as Israel has done the Arabs?

The biggest mistake Israel made was to build the infrastructure of Gaza, giving them water and electricity, something that was sparse to say the least when the Gazans were under Egyptian occupation. The same with the West Bank.

Believe me, if there was no terrorism, there would be no need for the IDF to use the tactics they currently employ in order to defend their people and their country.

When the Arabs want peace more than they want to kill Jews, then and only then will all violence cease.

Posted by: Jerusalem Posts on January 15, 2006 10:18 PM

15. YH said:

To Jerusalem Posts,
Your statements are completely false. When the Arabs/Muslims lost Spain both Muslims and Jews were expelled. Most of the Jews moved to Islamic lands, why? Because Jews back then knew where to live. Jews were never systematically killed as you say, otherwise there would be no Jew left in the Middle East. On the contrary Jews can be found everywhere in the Middle East. Unfortunately, when Zionist began to kill and expel Palestinians then the problem begun between Arabs and Jews. Zionist are the one who wants to expand by force but not by peace. Peace in the eye of Zionist is only a temporary measure in an ever expansionist strategy.
When Jews did not honor their treaty with Muhammed he made them teaches Muslims to read and write but did not kill anyone of them. After all Jews believe in the same God as Muslims moreover Jews and Arabs are Semites. Zionist think they are superiors.
In 1947 900,000 Arab Jews were not expelled from their countries, they were made to relocate as a consequence of Zionist. Remember even in our time Zionist constantly keeps on asking and in some instance forcing Jews to move to Israel.
Today in the Middle East, countries like Jordan have no Jews that is because what is going on in Israel against the Palestinians that is the reason.
Haj Amin Al Husseini was defending his homeland against the atrocities of the Zionist. This is also well documented facts.
Sadly, it is the action of Zionists who expelled and murdered millions of Palestinians and took their homeland that is the core of the problem, not the Arab or Islam.

Posted by: YH on January 16, 2006 12:20 AM

16. tina toto said:

To Mr. Jerusalem Post, Not only did I live here before the 67 war, I was actually born here,[1951] and had a relativly happy and secure childhood, not understanding at that age that it was based on the expulsion of 700,000 palestinian refugees, out of their homeland. But 67 brought out the monsterous face of the zionistic objectives, encouraged and supported by people like you, [do you live in Israel??], the U.S.A state department and the mainstream jewish communities around the world: Ideological fanatism screened by cynical use of the Holocoust and exploitation of the "victim indentity" togather with economical, strategic and other colonialistic interests. The majority of the Israelis want complete withdrawal, [to the green line], for complete peace.This is what the polls say for the past 10 years. The MAJORITY of the Palestinians recognise Israel and Want their own state in Gaza and the West Bank. So who are you, jewish or christian fundementalist for that matter, to intervene?
As to facts: less Israelis died of terrorism from 48 till 2000 sept, [When Israeli Prime Minister Sharon provoked the onset of this Intifada] than in the past 5 years.
1000 Israelies were murdered in the past 5 years as a result of Sharon's, [and yours] Policies of Non Negotiation and HORRIFIC Military occupation, whilst in the 12 years between 1988-2000 271 Israelis died of Palestinian terrorists.
Is that not enough to show you that the only way to an Israeli secure exsistence is by Negotiated and Agreed Withdrawal?

Posted by: tina toto on January 16, 2006 04:36 AM

17. BobW said:

Shalom Tina,

Your reply is appreciated. Thank you.

I'm accepting your examples as basically correct without my verification. I assign very little significance to the examples because they mask what is really going on in Israel and the rest of the Middle East. It's no secret that there is direct and collaterial injuries and deaths from the fighting in the area. It is an open secret that an advanced society is clashing with barbarians. Test this by looking at the parallel decline of Lebanon and the Maronite Christians in Lebanon. Continue this clash of civilization test
by looking at the decline of Egypt and Egypt's Coptic Christians.

My Wafa al-Bis example is really the better and more worthy example than the several you listed. Admittedly, was a little shocked to learn that an educator was not familiar with the near bombing of an Israeli hospital by a former patient of this hospital.

Tina, you're a new commentator at IsraPundit. Please don't place me within the collective terms you use. I hate the term "Jewish community" and dislike "fundamental Christians". Most cannot distinguish between fundamentalist Christians and evangelical Christians. I do not accept your term "refugee camp". I'm familiar with refugee camps and understand how the rhetoric and programs are manipulated by the barbarians. I'm no friend of the corrupt UN.

To reply to your question, if I was an Arab identifying myself as a "Palestinian", truthfully speaking, I could - and would - want to live in Haifa, Tel Aviv or Jerusalem. I say this partly from my Western orientation. Socially, economically and politically, I'm a little selfish. Places like Ramallah have morbidity and mortality rates like areas of corrupt Africa. Look at the infant mortality rates.

Do note you are forbidden to practice your Christianity in many areas you dirctly and indirectly reference. Please do not try to prove me wrong by sending your children to Bethlehem wearing crosses.

Plaestinian lands are within the venue and jurisdiction of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.

Kol tuv,
BobW

Posted by: BobW on January 16, 2006 05:39 AM

18. Jerusalem Posts said:

Tina, you say that the Palestinians were "expelled" from their homeland, when in fact they were told to leave by the Arab leaders of the time, after being promised that Israel would be destroyed in the 1948 war.

If the Palestinians were so tolerant of Jews, then why are there school books so full of hate and why is there no map of Israel in those books?

As for Sharon provoking the Intifada - it's already been proven by other Palestinians speaking out about how the Intifada was planned well before Sharon stepped onto the Temple Mount, which just happens to be the holiest site in Judaism, and was open to all before Arafat, the Egyptian was allowed to return from Tunis.

It seems to me that you wouldn't take any action in defending Israel or Israelis, but are more intent on protecting the Palestinians and attacking Jews wherever you may find them.

You're denying the FACT that 1967 was a pre-emptive defensive war, when Nasser had announced he was going to destroy Israel. In fact you're defending the Arabs who have wanted only the destruction of Israel.

If facts and truth are so reprehensible to you, then maybe you should move to Gaza or the West Bank where you can actually defend those whom you fight for.

As for the USA supporting Israel in 1967 - they didn't - but actually supported the Egyptians! They gave arms and weapons to Egypt and refused to supply Israel with any military spare parts. It was the French who supported Israel at that time, so please - get your facts right.

Obviously your memory isn't as good as it should be, because it was all over Israeli TV and radio that the USA refused the spare parts.

As I said before - terrorism against Israel started long before 1967 and was when Israel was within the "green line". How do you justify those criminal acts?

As far as your claim that between 1988 and 2000, 271 Israelis died from terrorist acts, then I'm afraid you're very wrong. Almost 1900 Palestinians have been killed since the start of the “al-Aqsa Intifada”, compared to almost 700 Israelis. Numbers like these are used to create an image of lopsided slaughter, with Israel cast as the villain. But such numbers distort the true picture: They lump combatants in with noncombatants, suicide bombers with innocent civilians, and report Palestinian “collaborators” murdered by their own compatriots as if they had been killed by Israel.

More meaningful figures show that Israel is responsible for some 733 Palestinian noncombatant deaths, while Palestinians have killed 546 Israeli noncombatants. Over 54 percent of the Palestinians killed were actively involved in fighting – and this does not include stone-throwers or “unknowns”. And Palestinians are directly responsible for the deaths of at least 253 of their own number – more than one out of every eight Palestinians killed.

On the Israeli side, 80 percent of those killed have been noncombatants. While Israelis account for about 27 percent of the total “Intifada” fatalities, they represent over 43 percent of the noncombatant victims.

While you're justifying Palestinian terrorism, please let us all know why, as yet, there have been NO Christian suicide bombers?

As I said before, when the Palestinians want peace more than they want all of Israel, the violence will stop.

Posted by: Jerusalem Posts on January 16, 2006 07:35 AM

19. Jerusalem Posts said:

YH,

When Jews were expelled from Spain, they went to other European countries more than to Arab lands.

There have been Jews throughout the middle east for 3500 years - it's well documented and is in the vast majority of history books.

You say Jews can be found everywhere in the middle east? Really? Then why are some countries so proud to say there are no Jews living within their borders and there are stories from the Arab Jews who were persecuted, some put to death and the rest later expelled?

You said that Zionism is expansionist, although that's not the case, when in fact, Israel, during it's pre-emptive defensive war in 1967 took only the West Bank and Gaza, although it could have taken Syria too.

It's Islam which was expansionist. Mohammed was the leader of the Muslim conquistadors of 1400 years ago and was the one who broke the Treaty of Hudabaiyah by practicing Taqiya (the art of lying and living a lie), which was when he murdered the Jews of Medina. He then went and onquered the rest of the Arabian pennisula with violence, rape and pillage (dar el harb). Jews refused to recognise Mohammed as a prophet and saw him only as a shepherd who suffered from epilepsy, when he was fitting, he had his "revelations".

The battle of Badr, which was the historical context for Sura 8, was a ‘defensive war in which the Muslims were hideously outnumbered’. In reality it was the Muslims who were the aggressors.

What were the actual circumstances? When news came to Muhammad in Medina of a Meccan trading caravan consisting of 30-40 men, he summoned the Muslims together, and addressed them saying “This is the Quraysh caravan containing their property. Go out to attack it, perhaps God will give it as a prey.” The celebrated biographer of Muhammad, Ibn Ishaq, comments further “The people answered his summons, some eagerly, others reluctantly, because they had not thought that the apostle would go to war”.

Yet go to war Muhammad did, taking a force of some 300 Muslims to loot a caravan of 30-40 idolators. However the Meccans, getting wind of the attack, dispatched additional forces to defend their people and their property. Despite this the Muslims continued with their attack plans. The outcome was that the Muslims achieved a great and historic victory at Badr, and did indeed make their enemies their prey.

After these events, chapter 8 of the Qur’an, entitled Al-Anfal ‘The Booty’, was ‘revealed’ to Muhammad. This chapter, far from being merely a time-bound commentary on the Badr raid, lays out principles which came to be foundational for the subsequent development of Islamic jurisprudence. An example of a rule imparted through chapter 8 is that a fifth of any plunder (the khumus) goes to “God and the apostle”, i.e. to Muhammad (later to the Islamic state). At that time Muhammad commented to his companions that, unlike all God's prophets before him, he alone had been victorious through terror; and he alone had received divine permission to take booty. Since Badr, these two marks of Muhammad's prophethood - booty and terror - were established as themes of Islamic military dogma.

The reason that many Arab countries are Jew-free is nothing to do with the Israel-Palestinian conflict, but is pure antisemitism and Islamic intolerance.

And as for Haj Amin Al Husseini, he was in league with the Nazis long before Israel was born!

Posted by: Jerusalem Posts on January 16, 2006 08:26 AM

20. tina toto said:

Dear Bob, true I am a new comer to this virtual space, but I am also a veteran Israeli peace fighter and the struggle for peace is not a hobby for me, nor a pastime, nor a scouce of income, but a matter of daily survival, as you would realise if you lived in Jerusalem and had to send your children by buses that explode ever so often as a result of the local and international warlords "no partners" "no negotiations" policies.
I am afraid I disagree completely with your statement that the Israeli "advanced society" is clashing with the PALESTINIAN "barbaric" society, this is a non factual statement charged with hate and fear, with racist undertones.
Is evry body who is not zionistic - christian or jewish, barbaric according to your perspective?
Mine is diffrent, based on hundreds of cases of Palestinians who are treated inhumanly by the Israeli army, by military law, that is authorised by the High Court of Justice.Women die of cancer at the checkpoints, even if they have a permit to cross, because the Israeli army prohibits their movement [at random].as example take Fatma Barghouth who died, 1 year ago, on 24th December at the age of 29, eaten away by a cancer that had spread from her breast to her spinal column.October 14th 2004, Fatma couldn't stand up. She had a permit to cross the Erez Barrier, and was taken by a red cross ambulance but, before arriving at Erez, near to the village of Abraj al-Awda, the Red Cross vehicle was fired on by Israeli soldiers.....[just one little example]
The Collective punishment has become worse since then:

More than 800,ooo Palestinians have been closed into Ghetto like cantons since 1 MONTH not allowed to move and denied access to Palestinian medical centers WITHIN the North part of the West Bank. In Gaza it's much worse: The Erez Barrier, for example,IS CLOSED TO ALL PALESTINIANS since the 16th of December, also if they are recognised as severe medical cases by the army it'self. Check it out with the IDF spokeswoman if you don't believe the UN [corrupt] report.
This is Barbaric in my eyes. This I call State Terrorism which is not better [ or worse] than the suicide bombers of the Palestinian Terror organisations.

By the way I am jewish and I wouldn't dream of putting a cross on my children to proove you wrong. And as to the your last remark- maybe you didn't realise that the late King Hussain of Jordan has disowned the West Bank jurisdictionally from his kingdom years ago.

Posted by: tina toto on January 16, 2006 08:59 AM

21. tina toto said:

As to the 1967 War, it was not a defence war- look up Tom Segev's book new book 1967 which discusses this issue professionally, as to the the french aide, ofcourse you are right, but the Egyptians were getting military assitance from the Soviet Union at that time. As to numbers of Israeli victims of terror untill 2000 and after, check them up at the IDF and Mof - Israel's foreign affairs office, sites, surly you rely on them?
I am by the way totally Pro Israeli, and a Zionist, not the way you would like me to be, ofcourse, but my arguement with people like you, as my persistent struggle for peace is part of my patriotism.
I don't understand what the fact that there were no christian suicide bombers, [if it's true], has to do with this discussion at all.
Sadly, the whole Christian Society in Israel and Palestine is very small, about 250,000 from all of the various churches. This might explain your dillema.

Posted by: tina toto on January 16, 2006 09:37 AM

22. Jerusalem Posts said:

Tina, first of all, let me tell you that Tom Segev has just about re-written Israeli history, and he's no notable scholar.

There's the newsreels, films and photos taken at the time which provide far too much historical evidence for even Tom Segev to refute.

As for me being in a dilemma, it's actually yourself trying project something onto me that doesn't actually exist.

And as far as King Hussein of Jordan goes - he disowned the West Bank in 1988 when he stripped the people living there of their Jordanian nationality which they held until that date.

As for looking at IDF or government websites, I do, and suggest you do the same.

Posted by: Jerusalem Posts on January 16, 2006 10:57 AM

23. BobW said:

Shalom Tina,

Some matters cannot have a resolution. I admit to not being able to follow your comments. You said you were a Christian. Now you say you are Jewish.

Is there no possibility of Palestinians [sic] receiving cancer treatment in Ramallah or Gaza City? Advanced civilizations pump money into medical care. Barbarians do not.

No hatred comes from me - just survival. No fear in me. I've been in 2 wars and can handle another. No racist undertones come from me. As recently as 24 hours ago I favorable spoke of the overseas Chinese of Singapore and the Indian Hindus of Jammu-Kashmir. Are you against Orientals? Are you against Indian Hindus?

I do not believe you have children.

Cancer treatment is available outside of Israel.

Our contrary views cannot be resolved. I, too, serve as a peace fighter.

"Fighter by day,
Lover by night,
Drunkard by choice,
Ready to fight."

Kol tuv,
BobW

Posted by: BobW on January 16, 2006 11:32 AM

24. Leonard said:

Bob the name Tina Toto should have made you wary! This woman is a Palestinian masquerading as an Israeli.
Bob - how could you have been so gullible to have been taken in. If she was a genuine Israeli peace activist - she would have used her real name. Unlike in the Arab world Israel is a democracy that permits all forms of free expression, but stamps down hard on terrorists that have no respect for life, and is often taken advantage of , like in the case where Israel permitted passage of the female Wafa al Bis on humanitarian grounds and she intended to blow herself up within the hospital. Arab terrorists and their sympathisers often rely on trickery to entrap the gullible - Its important to be cautious and not to be taken in.

Posted by: Leonard on January 16, 2006 07:17 PM

25. tina toto said:

Dear Leonard, your imagination has no borders. Maybe I am a penguin disguised as rabbit who is actually a carrot and a member of Hamas masquerading as a 53 year old jewish Israeli teacher mother of two children???
I would actually invite you and BobW for a coffee had I not realised that you are so full of hate and fear that you really believe that the jews are the victims and not the oppressors. It seems a waste of time to go on with this discussion that I have entered upon by accident, although I admitt I am perplexed as to the reasons of your fears that
bind you in such a small and dismal world and blind you from seeing the realities of others...

Posted by: tina toto on January 17, 2006 06:23 AM

26. Gary Zedak said:

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href="file:///D:/ARCHIVE/SHRAGA/Writings/References/Comment%20to%20Tina%20Toto.htm">

I am referring to the comments starting with Tina Toto’s #12 and up

This is a comment to what Tina Toto’s said in #12 and discussion that followed up. She raised the subject of Peace vs. “Occupation of Palestinian Lands”.

Tina said, she is “a veteran Israeli peace fighter”. “Peace” and “Fight” or “War”, for the same token, are oxymoron. Furthermore, one is meaningless without other, i.e. without “war” we would not know what is the meaning of “peace”, and vice versa. Individuals, groups, organizations, states, countries, … whatever, may fight, then may make peace, then may fight again … and marry go round! That’s what humanity does from day one. When you fight you choose sides. To “fight for peace” is delusion. You fight to win. When one side wins it may slaughter the defeated party or to make peace with it or with what remains of it. The peace may last or not. Jews don’t slaughter because it is against the Jewish Law. Arabs do have a tradition of slaughtering because their Law, the Koran, commands so. This is the major difference between the ethics of Jews and Arabs. It is that simple. Apparently, Tina chose sides. She fights for “Palestinian” Arabs. Here, her weapon of choice is propaganda.

Israeli abuses of Arabs implied by quoted examples of OCHA Briefing Notes are propaganda, because they are cited without any context of what really happened in those incidents. Besides, UN’s OCHA reports have questionable creditability, note necessarily of the bare event itself, but more of the way it is presented and of which events are selected to report. The mere use of the word “Palestinian” instead of “Arab” by OCHA is propaganda (remind you there was no such term “Palestinian” before “Oslo”). Other responding comments already have addressed these examples and there is no need to discuss more. These examples do not worth it.

What does worth addressing is the statement in the end of the Comment #12. I quote: “If you wish safety and prosperity for me and my family and for all Israeli citizens living in the country you should oppose the Occupation of Palestinian Lands and call for a bilateral withdrawal by agreement.”

Firstly, on ideological level, that’s what “Oslo” was all about. It miserably failed, because it was delusional, as many people foresaw. Now, the new game in town is “unilateral withdrawal”. All the signs are, that this is delusional too, however, much more dangerous for both Jews and Arabs. This is the rift today in Israeli society, between people that believe in division of The Land of Israel implied by “unilateral withdrawal” and those that think it is delusional. Let’s throw in to the fray the ruling elite and the government officials in it. They are not believers in one or the other. They are cynical. The only thing they want is to stay in or to grab the power. That’s why they are traitors. They betray all of us. They have their acolytes of “useful idiots” [this term was originally coined for dogmatic followers of Abu Stalin among the radical Left in US and Europe]. Tina is one of them. The relationships between Arab “useful idiots” in the “territories” and their ruling elite in form of “Palestinian Authority” or its siblings like “Al Akza Brigades”, Hamas, etc. are not that much different. One of the differences, though, is in quantities: Among Jews “useful idiots” are minority, while among Arabs, after fifteen years of brain washing, they most likely constitute a majority.

Now to the term “Palestinian Lands”. This term indicates the crucial point of everything that’s going on. There is war in Israel, whether one admits it or not. Actually, it is not only in Israel. It is world war, because the whole world Jewry is or going to be involved in it. The results of this war will answer the question “Who’s Land is this, anyway?” Without ‘Land of Israel’ there will be no more ‘Israelis’ as there will be no more Jewry. It will disappear, evaporate, assimilate, whatever. Hence, survival of Israel / survival of Jewry is at stake. This is the “Crux of History” Francisco Gil-White refers to in his book on the web.

Looks like Jews’ attachment to this land makes it indivisible, even if the Land borders were never clearly defined through the history. But, there is more to that, and it cannot be explained rationally. Religious people, Jews and gentiles, say it is God’s Land given to People of Israel. For them it is that simple. Secularists, however, want a rationale, and there is no one to be found.

Other way to view it is through the question of sovereignty. The term “Palestinian Land” implies there are “Palestinian People” that are sovereign over some land. So far this is fiction. Hence, Bush Administration tries so hard to make reality out of fiction by creating “contiguous State of Palestine”, populated by “Palestinians”. But there are no “Palestinians”. These are Arabs who sojourned in this land in accordance with changing economic conditions through the history. In recent history of 20th century their population grew with the prosperity brought by the growth of the Jewish population. Where Arabs came from? From the same place they were coming from since the times of Mohammed: Arab Peninsula and other countries through which they spread, i.e. the ‘Arab World’. Between the final pogrom of Jews by Romans in 70 AD and 135 AD and the beginning of the 20th century this region was scarcely populated, as many historical sources prove it. Through this period of time Romans, Arab Caliphate, Ottoman Empire, and British Empire ruled it. None of them claimed national sovereignty over the land. It was always known as a land of Jews.

Following 1967 war the MAPAI-Bolshevik Israeli “leadership” had a chance to exercise sovereignty over the Land of Israel. They let it pass, deluding themselves that neighboring Arab countries will line up to make peace with Israel for return of the “conquered” territories. We do not need Land – Peace is what important, they argued. Despite that Peace did not happen, they continued to refrain from exercising the sovereignty out of cowardice, failing to admit that being sovereign in the Land of Israel is the real foundation of the State of Israel, and not the UN Security Council resolutions 242, or whatever. Cowardice always has plenty of rationales to cover it up. In this case, the chief one was that Washington would not permit it. The next, this time “Likud” government headed by M. Begin, former head of Revisionist ‘Herut’ party and former leader of the “Irgun”, who’s main creed was “Land of Israel – for Jews”, not only did nothing, but even returned Sinai Peninsula to Egypt in 1978, as demanded by Washington – thus proving that in this regard there are not much difference between ‘MAPAI’ (later became ‘LABOR’, today ‘Kadima’), who’s main creed was social engineering of Jewish socialist society, and ‘Likud’. The rest, as they say, is history. In 1978 Israeli “leadership” put the country on the sliding path of loosing dignity, prestige, and deterrent to its enemies, which led to today’s final effort to forfeit the heart of the Land of Israel to … People of Fiction – named “Palestinians”.

Other scare to cover-up leadership’s cowardice is “demography” ghost. Arabs surround the Land of Israel. They “live” in “territories” and in Israeli “green line” borders. Better get used to it – there is no way to “disengage”. They are with us. We have to live with them or to fight them, whatever is the call of the hour. Once Jews are sovereign in their land it starts to look differently. Arabs may even choose to leave the Land to live in “purity” with their brethren in Judenrein countries. Although, I doubt it – the life among Jews is much better.

It looks like Arabs are smarter than Jews. They realized already long time ago that the question of the sovereignty is the crux of the “conflict”. Years ago Arafat even started to float an invention that “Palestinians” are descendents of the ancient Canaanites, i.e. to say Arabs were in the Land of Israel before Jews. Since then this fiction became an important part of the brainwashing machinery in “Palestinian” schools.

This is a call to arms for all Jews, in Israel and in the world. Don’t wait for leadership to lead. At the moment there is none. It is not unlike in WWII when Jews went to gas chambers. The only leader they produced then was Adam Czerniakow. This is a call to gentiles who love truth. Because Jews are about truth. Tina and other “peace fighters” fight for Arabs. Jews fight for Land of Israel. This is that simple.

Posted by: Gary Zedak on January 17, 2006 10:44 AM

27. RB said:

The old Soviet joke re “fight for peace” is still actual for Jews in Israel.
Two Soviet Jews are talking about war and peace:
- Chaim, they say it will be a war. Will it?
- No Moyshe, it will not be a war. But it will be such strong fight for peace that all will be razed to the ground, not to leave a stone standing.

Posted by: RB on January 17, 2006 04:37 PM

28. tina toto said:

Gary Zadek, Your call to all Jews to arm themselves is an illegal act of rebellion against the state of Israel. Not only I but all Israeli citizens will fight against your incitement. Wether you like it or not, we are still a law abiding democratic state, in all that concerns Israeli citizens, a call for arms is a severe crimanal offence. When I fight for peace I fight by legal nonviolant means. I want to show Israelis, Jews, Christians, Moslems, Hindis, the international community that the Israeli Palestinan conflict can be solved, and peace in this area can be attained for both peoples by negotiated Israeli withdrawal to the recognised border of the Green Line.
You want a continuation and an escalation of the conflict for your religious fundamentalist messianic interests. I suspect you want us Israelis and Palestinians to kill ourselves so that YOU can come to your salvation.
Sorry. We will not offer you this service. The majority of the Israelis, [jews, moslems,and christians]do not want to kill or get killed for land. [look at the polls].
They are afraid to make peace. The reason for this is the "hate talk", the incitement, and the propaganda that people like you spread. What you want is war and blood.
What I want is peace. And I will fight legally with truth, justice, and non violence against you. And I will win this fight, because I go the true and just way towards PEACE.

Posted by: tina toto on January 18, 2006 06:56 AM

29. Gary Zedak said:

Thank you, Tina. You prove my point.

Let’s summarize. You are fighter. You fight for (Arabs) Palestinian State. That makes you “peace fighter”. Arabs fight for that too. That makes them “freedom fighters”. Current Government of Israel, US Government, Saudi Arabia Government, and many other governments fight for that too. That makes all the parties comrades in arms, fighting for the common cause. Thus anything contrary becomes “illegal rebellion”. That makes you also a “fighter for totalitarian state”. In not so distant past, some Jews that refused government order to board the trains were considered rebels and shot on the spot.

In the movie “Last Samurai” the leader of Samurai’s rebellion (19th century) summons occasionally the captured American instructor to Japanese army, played by Tom Cruise, for polite, but terse, verbal exchanges. Asked by Tom Cruise why he does it (Tom Cruise presumes he is unimportant prisoner), he replies: “To have a good conversation”. This phrase stuck in my mind. We are having a “good conversation”, don’t we?

Posted by: Gary Zedak on January 18, 2006 01:01 PM

30. steve adams said:

Only this time, if there is a Holocaust against the Jews of Israel, EVERY Muslim state will be turned into glass. The barbaric moon cult followers of the pedophile prophet don't want to abandon the pleasures of their little children.

Posted by: steve adams on January 19, 2006 09:39 AM

31. Roy C.Hudson said:

To the Jerusalem Post.

Sir. It is real plane to see by all of your Articles explaining all the Facts
of the Conflict between Israel and the Arab Nations, along with all the other Nations
that are Programed in the teachings of the Koran. You have explained the Root Cause
many times over the past many Years. It is Impossible to talk to people that deny the
facts of History. Every thing Israel has tried to do to Help the PLO, they take it as a
Victory as winning there war in the Fight on Israel. as i said in one of my articles
last week, "Democracy," the word mr.Bush has been pushing. It come out like i said, It
gives a Terrorist the opportunity to chose a terrorist to lead them in terror against
the System they desire to destroy. And that is Global. Israel first. It was a Historical
Mistake to allow a Vote with the People that follow the Koran. They were told to lay
Down there Guns, They did not, and the Politicians went beyond Common sense and let the
Vote take place. "" in good Faith"" that the Enemy of right-ness would comply after the
Vote. The USA, the EU, the UN, and Israel. Pushed on over common Sence. This is now a
Victory for the Enemy of the Globe, and They were Shocked at the Outcome.!!!! lol...
Mr, G.W. Bush was lost for words, and he was not the only one.The so called Leaders of
intelligence today are asking, What shall we do.?? They should read the Jerusalem Post.
You can't tell it any better then you can read in this website. Today the Question today
is should the USA and the EU give the "PLo" all the Money they had plans to give? How
Stupid they Be, that will be excepted as another Victory over Israel with Guns in Hand.
When they shoot the next Rocket on Israel. The EU Rapid defence Force should put a hurt
on them and get on with it. But they wont do that they will TALK like with Iran, and
Russia, untill it gets completely out of Hand. To Talk, talk, talk, has been Victory to
the Enemy. Action in the name of "the Right way" is the only way to get the Message across
to the Heathen minded people. I know what the EU, the USA, the UN will do, When Israel
Shoots "BACK" at this new Terror Democracy, They will all Condemn Israel for Unilateral
Actoin.If this articale is Posted,It will be my Last one,I have had my say.I'm out of it.
Roy C. Hudson Jan,27/06. USA.

Posted by: Roy C.Hudson on January 27, 2006 10:42 AM

32. gemma moore said:

it is too much for me to read and you could not make it much smasller could you although it gives you alot of the information and it is good to see the way the you hook the reader on!!

Posted by: gemma moore on January 31, 2006 05:07 AM

Are Jews heading for another Holocaust

Are Jews heading for another Holocaust

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