‘Netanyahu agrees to extend settlement freeze by 2 months’
Two months or one month it will be permanent! Will lead to delineation of borders without the Arabs conceding a thing. No building will take place therefore on any areas designated as Palestinian borders. They can with American approval go to the UN and declare their state without Israeli approval . Once Israel agrees to borders what’s to stop them? BB must be dumped yesterday. He is putting the whole country in mortal jeopardy. Yamit
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has agreed to extend Israel’s freeze on settlement construction by 60 days, the London-based newspaper Asharq al-Awsat quoted Israeli officials as saying on Monday. 
The Asharq al-Awsat report came amid recent claims that U.S. President Barack Obama had offered Netanyahu an incentive package in exchange for keeping settlement construction at bay, a move which could quell Palestinian concerns over settlement building and consequently bring them back to the negotiations table.
According to Israeli sources quoted in the report, Netanyahu expressed his preliminary approval to extend Israel’s moratorium on settlement building, adding that he conditioned such a move on a list of U.S. assurances, which included a continued IDF presence in the Jordan valley and continued U.S. political and military support.
Sources quoted in the Asharq al-Awsat piece also said Netanyahu claimed that the assurances listed would aid him in the face of the widespread internal opposition expected to such a move.
Speaking at a meeting of Likud ministers which took place shortly before the weekly cabinet meeting in Jerusalem on Monday, Netanyahu made a possible reference to the Asharq al-Awsat report, saying that there were “a lot of reports on the subject, most of which are wrong and we can’t deny or correct everything.
“There’s no need to start a debate on the subject,” the PM said, adding, however that Israel was in the “midst of sensitive talks with the U.S. administration to find a solution that would allow talks to continue.”
“There’s no need to cause a stir, but there is a need to conduct ourselves in a wise and responsible manner in order to advance the diplomatic process,” the PM said, adding that he believed he had to “weigh the situation quietly and far from the spotlight, and act quietly.”
Netanyahu added that “efforts, mainly discrete ones, are made and we are expected to conduct ourselves in a restrained, discrete manner. If a decision will be made it would be brought before appropriate governmental bodies.”
Israel was “interested in achieving peace,” Netanyahu adding that it was a “vital interest of the State of Israel.”
Last week, the White House denied that Obama sent Netanyahu a letter proposing a set of U.S. guarantees to Israel in exchange for Israel extending a freeze on settlement construction in the West Bank for another two months.
“No letter was sent to the Prime Minister. We are not going to comment on sensitive diplomatic matters,” said Benjamin Chang, the deputy spokesman for the White House National Security Council.
It is not clear, however, whether Obama could have made the offer via means other than a letter.
Obama’s letter was said to include a long list of American favors in exchange for an extension of the settlement building freeze, which ended this week. Most of these favors are critical to Israel’s strategic security needs that Netanyahu has been demanding for years.
Other commitments that Obama reportedly offered Netanyahu in the letter include an agreement not to ask for any more building freeze extensions, an agreement to veto any anti-Israel UN Security Council resolution in the next year, and an agreement that the future fate of the settlements be dealt with only as part of a final status agreement with the Palestinians.
Obama’s letter was said to include additional commitments, including a series of guarantees to prevent the smuggling of weapons and missiles into a Palestinian state, a lengthy period of interim security arrangements in the Jordan Valley and a comprehensive regional defense pact for protection from Iran to follow the establishment of the Palestinian state.
The American president also reportedly vowed to upgrade Israel’s security capabilities and increase the three billion dollar security aid package that Israel receives annually. The letter included commitments to advanced weapons and early warning systems, including satellites.
gloom
Obuma forced him? That d______ Islamofascist weasel!
Bibi sucks.
I don’t agree with your opinion of Netanyahu Yamit, who has until now done a magnificent job in defending Israel against the predatory Obama. I can understand your worry, that at the last moment Netanyahu will cave in to the tremendous pressure being put upon him. I share your worry but think you should ask yourself what the alternative to Netanyahu is? There isn’t anyone of his calibre in Israel today.
Some say that halting the settlements is the price to pay for the US finally removing the Iranian nuclear threat. Is that the quid pro quo? I can’t believe that Obama would do this, but don’t think anything short of that should be the price of halting settlement. Only Netanyahu knows if this is the real deal.
Netanyahu needs counter pressure to stiffen his back, to remind him that (excepting the above iranian scenario) none of the settlements are up for grabs. I believe that Lieberman et al are delivering that necessary counterweight to this friend of islamists who likes to pose for the gullible as Israel’s friend.
It is Obama who is the enemy of Israel, a man with a long history of consorting with our people’s enemies, not Netanyahu. We should never forget that.
And one last thought. Even if Israel withdraws from some settlements, we all know that there will come a time when Israel will need to defend itself against arab attack from those very same areas, will be forced to retake them and will then hopefully not repeat Dayan’s mistake (repeated recently by Olmert in Gaza) of letting our enemies stay put to fight the next round.
I don’t know. I haven’t followed Bibi closely enough to understand him. I don’t know what the Americans got on Israel or if secret phone calls stopped Lebanon I and /Gaza II. As Tavor says we don’t know the backroom deals or the backroom pressure that Obuma put n him.
But it could be that he sucks as Laura says,
Giving even an inch certainly sucks big time and this is more than an inch.
I wonder if Ya’alon’s opinion cold be found on this and on Bibi? Probably not openly. Maybe it could be found by inference.
I would trust him a great deal more..
Unless the umbilical cord that attaches Israel to America is cut we are a goner. Obama I hope will force BB even agaisnt his will to accept that cut and begin acting like a responsible leader of the Jewish nation, BB would like Israelis to believe that there is some quid proquo of Iran for settlements. Even were it true and it isn’t we should say no. It is Israel who must do the job to reestablish our deterrence. In the next ten years there will be other nuclear enemy states like Iran. Foe Israel to destroy Iran’s nuclear infrastructure Israel would need to use tactical nukes. Till now we were not feared as we never used them even during the early days of the 73 war when Dayan was ready to offer Egypt our surrender, We need to do the job alone and WITH nukes. EVERY COUNTRY INCLUDING THE US, MUST COME TO GRIPS WITH a nuclear wielding nuclear Israel that will blow every oil field in the middle east if the world puts too much demand and pressures against us. Were we to do such a thing there is no way to stop us.
Our moral obligation is to the people of Israel not to the US, EU or anyone else. No Jew should have to die because BB is a traitor and a coward. No Jew should have to die to appease America or anyone else. There is no such animal as Rabin said sacrifices for Peace. For such a policy I would see BB dead rather than any of our sons in the IDF or civilians because he chickened out. America has betrayed us 3 times when our lives as a nation were held in the balance and they will do the same to us in the future. If we are going to go it alone lets begin now before more concessions and appeasement. We don’t need America and you will find that it is the other way around, America needs us.
Good idea Yamit. Israel deals the Ace of Spades and forces everybody’s hand.
Yamit’s Gambit.
With a nuclear Iran , Israel is facing extinction so there is nothing to lose.
If it works that’s the end of Islam as a world wide threat and probably the backlashes and courter-backlashes will kick Islam out of North America.
I guess they can regroup in their new base in Eurabia. Let them have it – the Dhiminnis there are not worth saving.
I said that Bibi was doing a ropa-a-dope, but just got clobered with a right cross. Out cold he loses and I have to eat my words.
I cannot comment because I have very disturbing images of midterm election strategies racing through my head. Bibi should not settle for less than
for TEN years, and no US funding for the UN Human Rights [except for Israelis] Council. and kick Turkey out of NATO.
My list is growing. This is Obama playing politics with Israel, and voters know it. Better for Israel to be the word of mouth issue in this U.S. election, and out of the headlines in the NYT which unfortunately too many people who report for other media still believe.
Most here misunderstand the situation, especially last comment, that any deal with Imperialism is worth anything, because this isa system in dire crisis, and any agreement today is changed by events of capitalist crisis, it plunges without respite, tomorrow
In essence this is same mistake as netanyahu. i dismiss the conspiracy theory. I do not need it to explain behaviour.
All the lessons of Jewish leadership are there from 1920 on.
In particular the acceptance of churchill slicing off of Jordan.
Then post 1945 and post 1967 especially not to place Jewish Interests as primary.
Netanyahu must go, there is no way around that.
But as Bill pointed out previously there simply is no party, no organization. judaism is able to produce not one single thing in that area.
That is the great crisis in Israel and it is a crisis in Judaism essentially, a religion backing a national struggle and totally inadequate to the job in hand.
Yamit82 is very much part of the problem, see his many previous attacks on Trotskyism, which is the ONLY hope for the Jews.
I can understand Yamit’s wish to ‘cut the umbilical cord’, at least as far as having to dance to the US and Britain’s tune right back as far as 1948 ( Allon’s plan to take Yesha then was not acted on out of fear that the British would bomb us).
But the reality is that for all its unbelievable achievments Israel is not a superpower. We are not a Germany with a mighty economy and populace that can fight the world for years on end. We can not just act as we choose. Just to put things into perspective, Britain spends around $70m a year on its armed forces. As much as Israel spending power
For those who would have us pull up the gang plank and establish redoubt Israel, this is exactly what our enemies would wish us to do. The nazis first act was to isolate jews from the wider population and this is what the arabs have with their propaganda and boycotts aspired to do even before the beginning of Israel’s existence.
Israel quite rightly fights against being isolated, as especially in today’s world, no man is an island.
And like it or not, the US despite being a rather unstable friend, it is a friend, a very good one at times. The ’73 war is mentioned by Yamit. Without Nixon’s airlift Israel might very well have been finished, with or without using nuclear weapons. Of course Yamit might properly point to things having been very different if Israel had attacked first then, so there is no easy answer to this.
But to give an example of just why why we need to maintain our links, in Sharon’s biography he mentions that at the height of the war he needed 600 pairs of binoculars for his commanders. He rang up his friend in New York who flew them out. All sorts of customs regulations could have been brought into play to delay the binoculars for about a month. Even in the 2006 Lebanon war, minuscule in relation to a war with Syria or Egypt, Israel needed to use prepositioned american munitions. Israel has a modern economy and military and needs those links to the outside world more than the arabs. Not without reason did Egypt close the straits of Tiran twice. And Israel went to war twice to reopen them.
It is very tempting to slam the door in the face of a friend that you’ve found less than steadfast, but is that the wisest course of action? America is our best, even our only true friend. There is no alternative. For example Russia, that despite Israel’s in my opinion wrongly having abandoned Georgia is still happy to supply missiles to Hezbollah through the good offices of its ally Syria and of course Busheyr. This despite Israel’s presently very good relations with Russia. Anyone who watches russian television will know that little has changed since communist and tsarist times (A speciality is RTV’s in depth interviews with ‘specialists’ such as John Pilger. Almost daily they trot out one of these so-called ‘specialists’, always demonisers of Israel. The last occasion I saw JP he was ranting about such nonsense as Israel’s having ’400 thermonuclear weapons’ ). In my travels in one country that watches predominently russian television, I found a loathing for Israel whenever it came up in conversation.
We have to remember that even when relations with Israel are at their best the US has its own interests, however misguided they are. There are always the pernicious actions of the arab lobbyists at work also. And we have an arch enemy in the White House at the moment, a very cunning enemy who works hard to hide his enmity for Israel (although he let his guard down when he snubbed Netanyahu), who uses cut-outs to do the hatchet work, but we need to maintain our balance and recognise that this sone yisroel will be gone soon. We will most likely never see anyone like him in the US again.
‘ BB is a traitor and a coward. ‘ – This is very, very dangerous speech, the like of which that led to the death of a hero of Israel. You might not like what Netanyahu says or does, but maybe you should think back to what the rabbis said as to why the second temple was lost, through sinat chinam. I know that at least a portion of the settler community is allowing itself to hate ‘leftists’, and this is in my mind troubling. As jews we have enough enemies without hating each other and thereby handing our enemies victory on a plate.
If there are many jews who work against the settlement enterprise it is often through ignorance. They often don’t even know that the ‘west bank’ is the cradle of our civilisation. The answer is not to hate them but to get close to such people. To explain to them. To invite them into houses and make friends with them. It is a hard thing to do maybe, but will be the best way to counter the impression of the fanatical settler and even sow doubts in their minds as to the propaganda they’ve been fed. You will change some of their minds, at least those who are wavering.
But once you are seen as a fanatic, they will discount anything you have to say. We need to counter our enemies attempts to paint us as fanatics. We are realists and need to present the security as well as the biblical arguments. Being expected to give up territory to an enemy who wants to eliminate you is not reasonable, as the Czechs found in 1938. Unlike his father Bush junior might have been naturally sympathetic to Israel, but Sharon also took him when still only a governor on a helicopter ride to point out just why Israel needed Y&S.
Our enemies have been long disappointed over Sepharadi and Ashkenazi differences. In their ignorance they hoped these would lead to civil war. Let’s disappoint them too during this difficult period.
Tavor misunderstands the situation completely.
There are two Americas, not one.
There is the America of the capitalist class, plunging into crisis, prepared to do anything to stay in power. it allies with fascist Islam, which is “Palestinianism”.
There is the America of the ordinary American people.
From leaving that basic truth Tavor is very soon lost.
The ideology of opposing the Jewish people living in Yesha and supporting the Arab nazi narrative is far more entrenched among some Jews, connected with Stalinism and Social democracy
From a faulty basic analysis every practical proposal of Tavor is wrong and dangerous.
Tavor reminds me of the frightened Ghetto Jew.
He revels in his perceived weakness and justifies his own succumbing to suicidal pressures on his own perception weakness and powerlessness.
We we ain’t so weak, we and we certainly are far from being powerless.
I agree with Trevor that, in the greater scheme of things, Israel needs the U.S. as a major power ally, just as does South Korea, or Australia, or the Philippines. The list is long. That is geopolitical reality. I don’t think saying that makes one a “weakling ghetto Jew”, or whatever.
But that said, there is no question that under this particular president, the U.S. can hardly be considered an “ally” in a genuine sense. And for that reason, in the here and now, I have to agree with Yamit that BB has to tell Obama to get lost. I am very disappointed that he has not. I don’t know his entire decision calculus, I don’t know what is going on behind closed doors, but at a certain point Obama has to be called out for the Arab stooge that he is. The bottom line is this: It doesn’t matter what Obama promises him, the man is a serial liar. He can’t be trusted. His assurances mean nothing. This has been proven again and again. That is why, no matter what Obama offers, BB must say NO.
The fracture in U.S.-Israeli relations would be temporary. Obama is weak and getting weaker; more and more Americans see him for the alien imposter that he is. He is on his ass in 2012, and by 2013, if Yamit is right that America needs Israel as much or more than Israel need America, than a rapprochement will be in the offing. We have to get through these next two years, but we – Jews, Americans, everybody – have got to stand up to this Obama.
Why? and specifically why dafka America?
So far in retrospect Bush is still worse than Hussein but he had 8 years.
Unless America revamps her whole foreign policy conception away from the Arabs nothin much will change no matter who is in the WH in 2013.
You are totally delusional. The whole American and Israeli systems have been corrupted by by petro dollars recycled in America and elsewhere.
It is hard to know just where I have touched Yamit’s raw nerve, as the good person hasn’t revealed this. Maybe it was asking Yamit to consider the use of hate speech such as, “BB is a traitor and a coward”. If that is so and it is symptomatic of being a “frightened Ghetto Jew”, then so be it. But my ‘frightened’ belief is that hate speech is wrong, and needs to be condemned so as not allow another crazed Amir to believe he has the moral justification and support in again shooting a jewish prime minister in the back.
Maybe it was my reminding Yamit that the rabbis considered that hatred of one’s fellow jews led to the destruction of the second temple.
Or maybe it was my belief that pulling Iran’s teeth would be something that might even be worth sacrificing some of the settlements for. A palestinian state as everyone knows is not viable, simply because those arabs know how to destroy and not to build, and would either self-destruct soon after independence or in the coming years would give Israel ample reason to crush them once and for all. Meanwhile the Iranian threat would be removed.
With all due respect to Israel, it does not have the overwhelming firepower of the americans, enough to sustain a month long massive bombing effort that would be needed to decisively divest Iran of its nuclear ambitions.
Yamit should forgive my stating the obvious, that Israel is not a superpower. Anyone in touch with reality should understand that, however much we would like things to be different.
Israel needs to take in to account the US when even Britain and France combined were brought to heel very quickly in 1956. Ben-Gurion who was possibly every bit as proud and courageous as Yamit, in 1948 recalled Allon whilst invading the sinai for fear of British attack. Sometimes one needs to tailor oneself to realities, the present reality being that we have an enemy in the White House and Netanyahu is rightly trying his best not to give him ammunition so as to allow him to act against Israel’s vital interests.
So the “frightened Ghetto Jew” asks, what is someone who lashes out in all directions, against those in sympathy with their own ideals symptomatic of, an Übermensch, a Bar Kokhba?
I took with you over your accepting what I consider the mostly baseless perception that because we are small even tiny that we have no choice but to make our vital national interests even our national existence to those of America or any other foreign entity.
American policy towards Israel until the 73 war had been mostly negative. We received little or no help from America when we were faced with 3 existential national challenges to our existence and in ea case America acted as an impediment to our survival in the favor of our enemies.
Military aid to Israel hovers at around two billion a year. Since 1970s, inflation and rising weapons costs have eroded that amount to insignificance. Three-quarters of the two billion are spent in the US. The US compound tax rate is 32%, presumably much higher in the defense industry where engineering costs (including taxable salaries) constitute a larger portion of the overall cost. Military aid after taxes therefore is about $1.4 bn annually. Just in the past few months the $ has depreciated against the Shekel almost 20% and 70% of American aid must be purchased in America, Israel is the only country receiving American aid that has such a stipulation.
In return for its military grants, America bans Israel from many profitable markets and deals and boosts its own arms exports. Minor aid buys America control over the strongest state in the Middle East and establishes America as regional arbiter.
America follows Jesus’ advice in the parable of the trader who, upon seeing a great pearl, sold everything and bought the pearl. America’s bribes to Israel for compliance are only euphemistically called “aid.” That Israel is the largest recipient of US aid is irrelevant. America pays for a particular benefit—control—not for improving the lives of Israelis. The Palestinians get more aid than Israel both per capita (from all sources) and relative to their GDP.
The free supply of American weapons causes systemic distortions in the Israeli army. The IDF won all its wars lean, but after 1973. Israel’s nuclear option deters regular Muslim armies, and fighting terrorists with ultra-modern weapons is absurd.
We despise Esau for selling his birthright for a dish of lentils. Think again. Israel sells her sovereignty to the United States at no higher a price.
Calling BB a coward and a traitor is in your opinion Hate Speech? Actually Amir did what Pinchas did. He saved thousands of Jewish lives by that one act of Chesed and followed Halacha to the letter: (Din Rodef). The civil war that took place between Jew and Jews during the 1st Jewish revolt mirrored the Hasmonean insurrection in that it was a war between assimilated cowardly and traitorous Jews against those Jews who were loyal to Torah and G-d. Rabbis should stick to what they know and it isn’t specifically an honest relating and interpretation of Jewish history.
The Jewish people were the greatest fighters in their time. The same Jewish traitors then we have today. In the Maccabees war, a civil war lasting 22 years hundreds of thousands of Jews died by the hand of other Jews. Those like me won and Judaism still exists. If Jews like you had won Judaism would have become extinct 2000 years ago,
Well not exactly, but we do need to take account of our one and only ally that counts.
Yes, i’d buy that. But we must remember that the US moved mountains when it came to the UN recognising Israel’s existence. As far as equipping the IDF it did take a while, but in the end it did step in to the breach when France and Germany and of course Britain were found wanting.
Without US equipment few of Israel’s feats over the years would have been possible, not least bombing Osirak or Syria’s reactor. Not to mention Entebbe! It’s of course not a one way street, Israel is a strategic asset to the US even if that has been questioned of late.
But think also of the diplomatic cover that the US gives Israel (normally, not during the period of Mr Hussein O). I realise that Yamit doesn’t believe that Israel needs allies or help, but maybe it should be considered that were the US to simply abandon Israel in international forums, Israel would cease to be in them, from trade to diplomatic to academic.
To show just what the importance of diplomacy is, consider that otherwise disastrous Olmert – during the Gaza War, there was hardly a peep out of the US or Europe. The ground had been prepared well, they understood why Israel had to act. There was no condemnation of Israel where it mattered, in the UN and in european capitals.
It should also not be forgotten also that Israel’s major trade partners are Europe and the US.
What is your alternative Yamit, to pull up the gangplank, ignore the rest of the world and then get to work.
That is a recipe for the breaking off of trade links between the west, of sanctions, of a UN arms embargo with Israeli shipping being inspected by foreign navies under UN mandate for any dual use materials, of Israelis being banned from travel, of airlinks to Europe and beyond being banned ……. We are very far from such a scenario, but that is what our enemies are even now working towards with their boycotts and Lawfare.
I’m not saying that we shouldn’t have our own goals in mind, but we need to take some account of what world public opinion will stand at any one time. It might be unfair that we are constantly singled out, but that is reality. It might be unfair that we have someone as US president who wishes to harm us, but we also need to take account of that. And thankfully, Netanyahu has. He allowed Obama to overplay his hand in attacking Israel without responding with histrionics and Obama was forced to back off by his own party.
We need to take into account that other people might not see things our way. We need to never tire of explaining to them the nature of the arab enemy we face, and of the relevance to themselves.
I wish it had banned Israel from the Turkish market. The Turks have most likely been having long conversations with Iran’s experts, explaining the ins and outs of israeli weaponry.
Israel might benefit from not selling to any and all comers. It has lost us a lot of potential friends. When I think of South Africa, Israel’s links to that regime has not helped us in the long term. That country is a world player now in the demonisation of Israel. Selling arms to Latin American dictatorships didn’t endear Chavez to us either.
I don’t understand that. Would you say the same previously about the French and Czech arms supplied and which saved the state from destruction? Israel uses US weaponry because they are the best, and Israel is always trying to get more and better.
If you are defending the murder of Rabin there is really little else I can say other than point to the civil wars that allowed our enemies in biblical times to overrun us.
I thought rabbis were supposed to guide………….
Yes, that’s a lesson for us today. But fighting isn’t everything. It’s picking the time, and the place and the strategy, and maybe even who you fight with. Picking a fight with Rome led to a million dead jews in the second revolt, the remainder living in caves (ever been to Bet Guvrin?) and the Galut, and resulted in pigs being offered up on the alter of the Kodesh Kedoshim, the temple being raised and the temple of Jupiter being put there by Hadrian in its place. The city of Jerusalem found itself a new name, and the name ‘Palestine’ came into use.
If you haven’t read Josephus yet, maybe now’s the time. You might also wish to have a look at Hadrian’s triumphal arch.
That is incorrect (In the closing days of WWII in July 1945 BG was amongst other things in New York setting up the ‘Sonneborn Institute’. If you don’t know what that is you might wish to read ‘ The pledge’-Leonard Slater) and shows you need to read a bit more. Ben-Gurion fought for years with the zionist executive to allocate scarce resources for the arming of the Yishuv, arms that when acquired were always under threat of confiscation by the British occupiers. Without Ben-Gurion there would have been no Haganah, no Palmach, no state of Israel, period! And you would wish to hang him?
Your rant about the Holocaust is interesting only for the fact that i’m used to such invective from anti-zionists who wish to paint jews as the willing executioners of their own bretheren so as to better found the state of Israel, even whilst collaborating with the nazis. The source for some of this nonsense are the ravings of a sadly demented ultra orthodox rabbi whose name thankfully escapes me at the moment. The logic of blaming zionists for the holocaust escapes me, other than maybe as an attempt by the culpable to evade responsibility by once again blaming the jews. That jews take part in such calumny, well…….
The following is poppycock, a “militarily inessential number of trucks”- 10,000 trucks in fact.
Whether the Germans were acting in good faith (it’s difficult to use that term considering who Kastzner was dealing with) is hard to know. That Kastzner saved his own family and maybe even profited from the rescue of the few Hungarian jews is deplorable, but possibly understandable. Who would not save their own family if they could. As to saving the rich jews, their payments subsidised the saving of poor jews also included on the transport. The transport was not free, but $1,000 per peson.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kastner_train
The whole affair is murky and difficult to work out. Whether the original judge was biased, whether political pressure was brought to bear to exonerate Kastzner is very difficult to say.
The Jewish Agency despite knowing that it was powerless to deliver any agreement with the nazis nevertheless stalled for time and gave Joel Brand a paper accepting Eichmann’s terms to save the Hungarian jews. The British however arrested him and a certain Lord Moyne even asked Brand, “What can I do with a million Jews? How can you blame Ben-Gurion sitting a thousand miles away, not even the head of a state, for not being able to push through a deal the the US and Britain objected to?
You might show a little humility when considering the people you are denigrating, those who built the nation, even before Gush Emunim and religious zionism was thought of. Unlike yourself, Rav Kook had respect for the founders of the state. Imperfect people they were and sometimes they committed grave mistakes (the attacks on Etzel and Stern come to mind) but in the end it was overwhelmingly the secular zionists who in the face of all the odds paid for, worked for and died in setting up the state.
Are these, “leftists” by any chance those who were amongst the 600 who died? My own opinion is that Israel should not have left Lebanon, but the reasons for so doing were to save soldiers’ lives.
Do you really think yourself having the military credentials to criticise Sharon over Mitla. Do you know the facts? Without Sharon there might be six or seven settlements in Y&S now. That was the number that Weizmann wanted to establish. It was Sharon who had the forsight to plant skeletons of all the settlements in one go, and transferred the army bases there, and walked over the whole area planning the strategic placing of the settlements.
With the benefit of hindsight withdrawing from Gush Katif was a disaster and maybe Sharon’s greatest mistake. A lesser soul than Yamit might think of Sharon’s having helped save Israel in 1973 and the major part of his life spent in Israel’s defence (Unit 101 for example) as some mitigation however.
I must admit to being profoundly shocked at hearing some of your statements Yamit, coming from someone who purports to support Israel. When countering arabs and their collaborators’ arguments I sometimes find it hard to come to terms with the sheer hatred and lies that come from them. Hearing these sorts of arguments here really makes me wonder? I really hope that this hatred for much of your own people and skewed history that you are coming out with reflects more your own bias than that of the settler community.
You might contemplate on this Yamit:
“Kook was interested in outreach and cooperation between different groups and types of Jews, and saw both the good and bad in each of them.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Isaac_Kook
I have said all I wish and don’t have time to reply to any more of Yamit’s invective.
Tavor, there is much to commend in your informed, measured and reasoned comments regarding the lead article posted and courteous response to Yamit. I look forward to reading your further contributions to this blog.
Regarding the article, I take a somewhat different view than Yamit and Vinnie.
Though denied by the WH that Obama had paid for Netanyahu’s agreeing to extend the freeze another 60 days with various unspecified guarantees, leaks from the halls of power usually have at least some, if not much truth.
Assuming that the leak is fairly reported by the London-based newspaper Asharq al-Awsat relying on quotes from Israeli officials and what the officials said is fairly accurate, then Netanyahu’s deal is a positive.
In past, Israel has been forced by Obama and past American presidents to make concessions in position without any apparent quid pro quo coming from the Americans.
This time, Netanyahu appears to have extracted a quid pro quo from Obama. If those guarantees, whatever they are, are not conditional on anything but Netanyahu agreeing to a 60 day extention on construction in J & S and thus are enduring, Netanyahu may well have secured a small coup for Israel, without giving up anything more.
Ask youselves, what real prejudice does Israel suffer by Netanyahu making that concession?
To remain in talks with Abbas, very likely will not bring about any resolution, interim or otherwise, given that Abbas:
1. Has thus far given no hint that he is about to back down from his maximal demands;
2. Can only go so far in conceding anything before Hamas can squelch any hint of even a modest interim deal on some issue, by launching a rocket attack against Israel, which would be certain to derail talks.
3. His power is tenuous;
4. Is fearful of Hamas’ power and its sway on the minds of many Palestinians in J & S. Abbas last month made some effort to clean out some Hamas terror cells in J & S. Clearly he knew where they were and chose to act as he did for some purpose that was either not revealed or if revealed escapes me. Clearly from all accounts there are more Hamas terror cells in J & S.
If Abbas were to make any kind of deal that would undermine Hamas’ goals, he not only might have another civil war on his hands as he did a few years ago, his own life and that of his leadership colleagues would be put in danger.
One must also consider that Netanyahu has been resolute so far that any Palestinian state must be demilitarized for security reasons, a position that Abbas is equally resolute in rejecting as he does Netanyahu’s demand that Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish state.
It seems from what we do know of the near impossible, if not impossible hurdles both Abbas and Netanyahu must overcome, even with their own people to ensure their leadership is not put at risk by conceding too much, that even in these ensuing 60 days, coming closer to a realistic and feasible peace deal is very unlikely.
In conclusion, Netanyahu’s having so conceded a further 60 day construction freeze, gives up little if anything to Obama and the Palestinians, but it has secured Israel certain advantageous guarantees from Obama.
Narvey it’s a good thing you aren’t Jewish?
Ally? That counts?
Excuse me! America only changed their vote from abstain to yes at the last second. Not only didn’t the Americans move mountains but they did as much as they could to make sure the vote was a negative. It was the Zionists who moved those mountains and even the American Jews were mostly opposed to the Jews having a state. Show me credible references in support of your statement here.
Only after the Yom kippur war and then it was because we were still alive and still sitting on the Sinai. But the main reason was cold war politics and we filled an American strategic role against Russian influence and near hegemony in at least half the ME. Even then we paid for the weapons America provided. Ea Phantom and sky-hawk was paid for by Israel and we got no discounts. It was only after Camp David when another Israeli traitor gave away the Sinai for a flag on a building. Not only was that move traitorous it was criminally stupid.
In 67, the Americans had plans for invading Sinai to block our advance on Egypt. The war ended to quickly for them to implement it. America Ally? What do you put in your morning tea?
Israel should never accept without payment any weapons from the US. Since the early nineties we have the capabilities to make ourselves what we need but I maintain that using our nuclear arsenal intelligently as our primary offensive doctrine would negate the need for a large and very expensive standing and reserve force. With at least 400 nukes many Mirvs and delivery systems there is no spot on the globe we can’t reach. Having a small standing Army and reliance of Nukes no country would dare invade not even the USA. Having a fleet of subs armed with nukes means we have a solid second strike capability. Scenario: What would happen if we nuked every oilfield in the ME? We have today that capability not that we would use it but we have it and no-one could prevent it if we did. That’s power and leverage if we wanted to use it. We too can threaten to denyu the WSest that which the Arabs use against us. They can set the monopolistic quantities and prices but we can at the push of a few buttons remove that weapon if it becomes too crippling on us. But apparently we are swimming in Natural Gas and probably a lot of oil as well so our needs are at least assured. How many countries can say that? Being energy independent is Power today.
Back to weapons The Russians would sell their Babushkas if we untie our tight links to America and begin to buy and upgrade their planes and technology, the Chinese and Indians as well. If Israel buys Russian the whole world would buy Russian. That’s power! Israel aligning herself with Russia would mean for us good weapons at 80% cheaper than American and leverage with with Russians who don’t have a history of betraying their clients and throwing them when it’s convenient under the bus.
The Arabs fear the Russians and don’t fear the Americans. As I said a Russian veto is every-bit as good as an American one. It would politically cost us less as well.
Israel uses US weaponry because we don’t need to pay for it and They are mostly useless and not tested in actual combat conditions and much too expensive. Against our enemies we don’t need such hi tech weapons and gadgets, and against terrorist napalm works great and it’s cheap.
We will always be out gunned and out manned so why get into an expensive arms race? for the egos of our generals? Kiss keep it simple stupid, we have the nukes and everyone knows we got em so build our military doctrine around them become a Mad state where whoever seriously threatens us can have a nuke up their asses for dinner. It need not ever come to that if our threat is believed credible.
Our stupid handling of lebanon and Gaza has shown us to be incompetent fools and our political leaders groveling to the Americans and even the Turks has only shown what a bunch of morons we have in our leaders both political and military, America has corrupted every strata of our society. We are laughed at today in every national capital. We have shown little national pride and even less individual pride in the form of those who speak in our name. We are not feared, not liked and not respected.
I’ll finish the rest later!
If we stop caving in to pressure the pressure will dissipate. If the world begins to fear us the pressure will dissipate. We can make alliances of sorts with other countries I think once we are out from under the American influence (diktat). None are perfect none may be there when we need them but so what? What’s the world going to do invade us? Boycott us? We see with Iran , Iraq and other countries boycotts and embargoes don’t work. In the real world money talks. Jews got money and know how to work the black and grey markets of the world better than anyone. We might suffer but also become stronger in the process.
Europe should soon implode and America has seen her peak. The future is in the East not the West and Israel is now positioning herself to that coming reality. Since Israel imports much more than we export to the EU and in light of their economic problems I don’t think even they are so stupid to cut off their collective noses out of hate but with the offal Europeans you can never know. They do love money thouigh and their soft life., We can make their lives so much more difficult is pushed too far. That is the point that must resonate with them. They will never like or love us but they can be made to fear and respect us. That’s good enough for me.
I would have Israel quit the UN. We don’t recognize them or their jurisdiction over us, we don’t recognize their resolutions or their forums, their NGO’s! They will be forbidden to set foot on the soil of Israel So we lose a few hundred diplomatic jobs for our worthless(sic) diplomats. Some might have to learn to work at real jobs to make a living but I doubt it. I know some personally and most tend to sound much like you. now you will tell me that it would lead to our Isolation?
I would welcome such a reality but second best is to become at least an independent sovereign country of Jews who do what’s best for Jews and not foreigners who would as soon see us disappear. America is holding us back from reaching our potential as an independent JEWISH STATE, I fault ourselves in this more than I do America. Afterall we allowed America in just like in the Past Rome, Persia, Assyria and Egypt. None came to good for the Jews then and none now.
Don’t worry about it I would escort our ships and fire upon any foreign nation attempting to board or detain them, The west are quite the cowards if they face a determined enemy. Just look at N. Korea. THEY SINK A S. KOREAN SHIP KILL TENS OF S. kOREANS AND NADA. They GOT NUKES! Iran, thank’s to America and our Pygmy leaders here will soon have them as well and they already probably have some. The Saudis are believed to have a few Pakistan nukes in payment for financing the Islamic bomb. Of course your friends the Americans know that but close their eyes because the target if used will be us and those Same American friends of yours are supplying the Saudis the means to deliver and protect what they aim to do eventually. But Hey, what could we do without America?
You scare easily but I counter that in a worst case scenario we Take out an oil field or oil pipeline a day for every day we are boycotted. The Russians will condemn us but laugh all the way to the Bank and might even behind the scenes support us if it hurts America. If you are considered an unpredictable crazy state with nukes nobody even the big powers will mess with you.
Never complain and never explain; Fuck em if they don’t like what we do! Excuse my French but you are a wuss. Do you see any other nations explaing the justice and rightness of their actions? If we believe we are right we need not have to explain anything to anyone. Your approach is being always condescending and groveling and that shows weakness and we are despised for that weakness and certainly not respected.
You seem like a nice guy but I have no respect for you either; the more I read what and how you think. How I feel is pretty much how the goyim feel as well.
So far I think our bilateral Trade with Turkey is holding steady, Israeli tourism is down in Turkey but our Jews will return because they like Turkey and it’s cheap. They have no or little national pride either. Jews returned to PoLand and Germany after the war. What does that tell you about Jews? 2000 year in exile has made Jews the most dysfunctional of peoples.
Rabin got what he deserved in my Humble opinion. He gave away the Land of Israel and got thousands of Jews killed and maimed and we are still paying for that treason today. I had a business open 50 meters from where he was shot. When I heard what happened I was in a celebratory mood. Made a lot of money off the mourning tourists as well.
Jewish civil wars were bloody but the right side prevailed in each case. They were always between the assimilated Jews who aligned themselves with with the Greek, Roman and Persian against the fanatics that wanted to remain Jewish according to the Laws and traditions of the Torah and our ancestors. Read Judges chapter 11 Similar situation today and how it went down. There is not one instance in the whole of the Tanach where the Jews willingly and voluntarily gave up so much as an inch of land. Milchemet Mitzva is ordained in every case when such a demand or threat occurs even if only tribute is demanded of us. Even under Israeli Law today where a negotiation on ceding any part of the state of Israel is treason . That would today include annexed Jerusalem and the Golan. Rabin was under Israeli Law a traitor as was all subsequent leaders of Israel. That no court will prosecute them does not negate the standing law. That’s politics.
Rabbis had best stay away from politics that isn’t their forte. That’s why we had Kings and prophets some dictators as well. The closest rabbi as a leader I can think of was R Akiva. A real non realpolitik fanatic.
Different lesson! The Jews are still around to visit the Arch but the roman aren’t. Nothing happens by chance in Jewish history.
I keep an old Penquin abridged version of the Jewish Wars on my night table next to my bed and actually read it. What’s your point?
As for BG:
You give him an undeserved pass he was for all intents of purpose a British stooge and agent answerable to the British who appointed him. He spent more time and energy hunting down and turning over to the British the revisionists then he did in preparing for the coming war with the Arabs. Kollack was one of BG’s snitches to the British against other Jews. Met him once had dinner with him and his wife. His nephew was my neighbor for some time when I lived on kibbutz and he held a pole of my Chupa when I got married. I met Begin several times as well but that’s digressing from my points. The socialist were quite perfidious and if you read histories and objective bios of the last 20 years it’s much less glowing of our founding fathers than the pictures you seem to paint.
more later!