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  • June 1, 2011

    For defense, is less, more?

    By Ted Belman

    Gearge Friedman, STRATFOR GLOBAL INTELLIGENCE, in Israel’s Borders and National Security argues that less is more. He cites the example that Israel did better in the ’67 War fighting from pre ’67 lines than it did in the ’73 War fighting from the post ’67 lines.

    You might argue that that is because Israel preempted in the ’67 War and didn’t in the ’73 War. Maybe so.

    He also factors in Israel’s need for big power support for resupply.

      Most important, if Israel is incapable of generating a national defense industry that can provide all the necessary munitions and equipment without having to depend on its allies, then it has no choice but to consider what its allies want. With the pre-1967 borders there is a greater chance of maintaining critical alliances. More to the point, the pre-1967 borders require a smaller industrial base because they do not require troops for occupation and they improve Israel’s ability to conduct conventional operations in a time of crisis.

      There is a strong case to be made for not returning to the 1949 lines, but it is difficult to make that case from a military point of view. Strategic depth is merely one element of a rational strategy. Given that Israel’s military security depends on its relations with third parties, the shape of its borders and diplomatic reality are, as always, at the heart of Israeli military strategy.

    Friedman as he says is focussed on military strategy only but he does acknowledge that “There is a strong case to be made for not returning to the 1949 lines”. He doesn’t make the case.

    He also argues that military planning must prepare for “the worst case scenario”. He argues that were Israel to remain in its present borders, she must factor in no resupply or diplomatic support. But who is to say that Israel will have big power support if she retreats now. It is possible that in either event she will not have big power support in the next war. So wouldn’t she prefer the borders of today.

  • Posted by Ted Belman @ 1:53 pm | 32 Comments »

    32 Comments to For defense, is less, more?

    1. Paula N says:

      Easy to say for someone that doesn’t live in Israel. How very convenient for Mr. Friedman!

    2. Jerry says:

      Friedman does not make his point clear, that the very idea of the 1949 armistice line is to reduce Israel’s defensive capacity so that Israel can never “do that again.” That is, defend itself within reasonable borders. Everyone one who seeks a return of Israel’s heartland does so unashamedly to reduce Israel’s “threat” to its neighbors. It is no different than their own “political correctness” applied only and solely to protect Islam. Reducing the size of Israel is so transparent and well-understood as to be spoken of openly in political circles. Yet, the Jews insist on illusions that there are other reasons like justice and democracy for the Palestinians. Truly, the world hangs on a thread of nothingness and can disintegrate in a moment of stupidity and hate.

    3. Laura says:

      All I have to say is that George Friedman is full of it. He claims he is all about military strategy but it is clear that he is promoting a political agenda. No military strategist would be for Israel retreating to the pre-’67 lines. I recall another article Ted posted by Friedman where he was attempting to make the case that Israel is a strategic burden for America. So we know what he is all about.

    4. JR says:

      Gearge Friedman, STRATFOR GLOBAL INTELLIGENCE seems to forget that Israels military doctrine until The Oslo Accords was to fight our wars on the Territory’s of the enemy. Since the majority of Israels population reside on the coastal plane from Haifa to T/A and the waist of Israel from Netanya to the 49 lines is 9-10 miles wide which is considered by everyone as indefensible. he forgets the rocket attacks from Lebanon in 2006 which emptied the population of the North for almost a month. He forgets The Scuds from Saddam that emptied T/A to settlements in Y&S. Israel also needs room to disperse her growing population from the dense population high-rise apts in case of predicted earth quakes or Nuclear attack. Only Y&S can meet those requirements. Y&S is not all that vast where compacted defensible lines lines are all that critical considering the mostly mountainousness terrain of most of the Y&S, there are only a few passable routes of a land Army from the east that can invade Israel and by keeping control of the high ground one can control with fewer forces vast areas. True Log and short range rocket and missiles are the major threat and it puts all of Israels’ population centers as well of military command at risk. It puts our ports and air terminals at risk but also hazardous chemical storage facilities, electrical generation plants, the oil refineries and natural gas storage and distribution terminals in serious jeopardy. The 49 borders allow terrorists to be able to fire mobile rockets with all of the heartland of Israel in range. So geographical depth has some advantages by keeping the distances between threat and target as far away as possible thereby eliminating at least a part of the potential threat. No matter how good ones Intel is none are perfect. in order to quickly mobilize our reserves All main transportation arteries must remain whole and unfettered. Th 49 borders would allow terrorist to easily disrupt that mobilization.

      Friedmn errs on at least two other points. Israel could manufacture or purchase what she needs and in the necessary quantities if they became a national strategic priority and the funding allocated. The American aid if anything has distorted and repressed our industrial capacity. Does anyone doubt that Israel could not purchase for cash or barter anything the Russians or Chinese have to offer?
      Friedman claims we would have lost the 73 war w/out resupply from America. We won the war before the first resupply plane landed in T/A. He is here repeating a myth which puts his overall analysis in question.

      Israel can change the military equation by revamping her whole military doctrine around our nuclear deterrent. Our conventional military would be built around counterinsurgency (against terrorists and border protection and our nukes would be used against any apparent attempt at land invasion and threat of missile and rocket attacks by conventional and or CBN. We should build up and enhance our own short range and ICBM and second strike capabilities. We could thus save billions now going to conventional forces and investing in our nuclear deterrent delivery/satellite platforms along with more modern subs and electronic warfare systems. Any shortfall in funding can be made up by greater efficiencies and greater financial support from Jews or gentiles abroad. $3 billion a year is not so much or difficult to replace.

      Israel and her capabilities are vastly improved over what we had in 67/73 and our population is more than double as well.

    5. Yonatan says:

      if Israel is incapable of generating a national defense industry that can provide all the necessary munitions and equipment without having to depend on its allies, then it has no choice but to consider what its allies want.

      If the allies want us to go back to indefensible borders and aren’t willing to allow us to purchase the materials needed,then its time for Plan B. Our nuclear arsenal is for deterrence right? Then use it to deter. Voila, not as much need for the standard munitions.

    6. Samuel Fistel says:

      Israel needs some strategic depth:

      In 1967, the Kingdom of Jordan had annexed the West Bank and stationed the Jordanian army there. So Jewish Israel faced a conventional military threat.

      Now, in 2011, if Israel withdraws to 1967 lines, it faces unconventional, asymmetric warfare, with palestinians and their muslim allies threatening the survival of Jewish Israel with unlimited quantities of short range missiles and shoulder launched RPGs. Allowing these forces to control the ridge line overlooking Israel’s coastal plain (nine miles wide), and in full view of the Ben Gurion airport, does not seem too smart.

      So who would propose a plan like this? No true friend of Jewish Israel; only leftists who prefer that Jewish Israel be destroyed in order to bring “justice” to the palestinian muslim savages.

      Here is a recent article in FrontPage mag, expanding on this:
      http://frontpagemag.com/2011/05/26/obama-putting-israel-in-mortal-danger/

    7. ArnoldHarris says:

      Israel never has had “big power support”. All she got from Truman’s USA were three war surplus B-17 bombers flown across the Atlantic ocean mostly by Jewish-American pilots a step ahead of this country’s neutrality laws. Somewhat more substantive support came from Stalin’s USSR by way of Tito’s Jugoslavija, in the form of a squadron or so of Czechoslovak fighter aircraft built from German WWII Messerschmidt bF109 parts. In addition, there was all other kinds of junk weaponry that a number of fledgling workshops in newly-declared Israel put into combat-ready trim. That, in the hands of a lot of the finest generation of Jewish fighters, beat the combined armies of Egypt, Syria, Transjordan and Lebanon.

      After Moshe Dayan’s Zahal captured the Sinai in October 1956, Eisenhower and the US State Department led by apparent Jew-hater John Foster Dulles threatened Israel until Ben-Gurion withdrew from the Sinai in March 1957, in return for a paper promise that Egypt would be made to keep the peace and not remilitarize the Sinai, or words to that effect. But I recall reading that a decade later, during the war crisis developing in late May 1967, the same US State Department suddenly could not find their official copy of whatever agreement they had made to get the Jews to acquiesce in being shoved around. So they just sat on their fat asses waiting for the expected slaughter of the Jews, wringing their hands.

      Now Egypt under a new set of pharoahs who indeed knew not Yosef, are breaking the commitments they made to that other shitface, James Earl Carter, at the Camp David accords that compelled Menachem Begin to give away Israel’s security frontier in the western Sinai. So now all the 2011 versions of the earlier Washington, London, Paris, UNO and other shitfaces of the past, are winding up the same old Victrola records to play the same lying tunes of many a yesteryear.

      Back in 1973, when Stefi Harris and I were studying Hebrew in Shikun Dora, a little south of Netaniya, we both were impressed by the fact that we could have hiked on foot from the Mediterranean beaches to Tulkaren in just a few hours. And were not infantrymen. Defense in depth means just what it says. In this case, a defended and defensible military border along the whole length of the Lower Jordan River, the Dead Sea and the Arava Valley south to Eilat. And with a hostile Egypt glaring at the Jews from across the Gulf of Suez, a defensible border on the west means nothing less than Israeli boots on the ground along that gulf coast.

      When the hell will you folks in Israel learn to stop being craven ass-lickers to Jew haters such as President Blacksnake, the kinds of unreliable toads who inhabit the US State Department, the UNO, and the world’s assorted leftists, both Goyim and Jewish? Tell these bastards to go fuck themselves. You already are manufacturing most of your own weapons, and you can make a lot of money in this world becoming the biggest merchants of death on the face of this planet, making weapons for anybody outside the Moslem world who has the money to help subsidize Israel’s growing armaments industries. That is exactly what you should have done when Washington bullied you out of building and selling the superb Lavi jet fighter-bomber.

      And if any of these bastards get too threatening, test one of you now substantial collection of nuclear and/or thermonuclear weapons and let them know in no uncertain terms what the price will be to the world if Israel has to be defended the hard way. And while you are at it, let them know that one of the first significant targets will be everything standing within a 2 or 3-mile radius of the Kaaba in Mecca. In such a way that the next Hadj could not take place for the next 250,000 years, depending on the half-lives of whatever poisonous radioactive substances are available to be painted onto the bomb casings.

      Remember this well. Your need for any of these bastards lessens proportionally to the degree that you build up the muscle of the Jewish nation assembled on the soil of Aretz-Yisrael. That, and stay straight with the memory of what ha-Shem commanded the generation of Moshe Rabbeinu and Jehoshua the conqueror, crossing the deserts west of Egypt about 3500 years ago. They were commanded to drive out the Amelikites and other Arabs of that era, and were reminded of what would happen to them if they failed to do so. Don’t keep making the same damned Jewish mistakes generation after generation.

      Okay?

      Arnold Harris
      Mount Horeb WI

    8. Ed Katz says:

      Arnold, you are my kind of man. No bull shit from you.

      The bounderies that Israel is encouraged to meet have been well discussed and decided. Build everywhere on the west of the Jordan. Israel must become the chief bull of the Middle-East. If Muslims, of any country, attack Israel massively, the nuclear targets are: Irani Naval ports and air fields
      Aswan Dam Syrian Sea ports
      Cairo Iraqi oil fields
      Alexandria Irani nuclear facilities
      Beirut Irani capital and major cities
      Kaaba Jordan is safe unless they want war
      Arabian and Irani oil fields All of Egypt’s air fields

      This should be an every morning reminder to all Muslims.
      Damscus
      Tripoli

    9. BlandOatmeal says:

      STRATFOR GLOBAL INTELLIGENCE hot air. I haven’t read STRATFOR for a while. The last time I read it, before Gulf War II, they were predicting that Israel would ally themselves with Sadaam Hussein.

    10. dweller says:

      “Friedman claims we would have lost the 73 war w/out resupply from America. We won the ['73] war before the first resupply plane landed in T/A.”

      There are several of us at this site who were already aware of that.

      What is most frustrating, however, is that the MFA (and other arms of G.O.I.) ALLOWS the myth to stand without challenge. This, in turn, makes it hard for us to successfully debunk it in the broader, American & international culture.

    11. dweller says:

      “They ['the generation of Moshe Rabbeinu & Jehoshua the conqueror'] were commanded to drive out the Amelikites and other Arabs of that era, and were reminded of what would happen to them if they failed to do so. Don’t keep making the same damned Jewish mistakes generation after generation.”

      Not sure you can make the claim that “generation after generation” IS making “the same damned Jewish mistakes” if they don’t receive the same command in each generation. I think you may be erroneously assuming, Arnold, that ANYTHING that is commanded to one generation is NECESSARILY commanded to all generations.

      A command in perpetuity may be true for some things, without necessarily applying to ALL things. If indeed it were important that a specific command be understood to apply to all generations, is it not reasonable to conclude that the command would’ve been REPEATED again & again, m’dor l’dor?

      The first generation in the Land after the Exodus had had no prior experience of nationhood. It had spent a lifetime in the desert, and had nobody to learn from.

      (The previous one were acclimated to relying for their substance, support & defense on the very Egyptian state that had been responsible for their bondage, and were unaccustomed to living as a free people. Apart from Jehoshua & Calev, they all died in the desert.)

      The first generations in the Land had to be molded & shaped, and that clearly required that they be shielded from, among other things, the degenerate practices of the existing, Canaanite peoples. When you plant a garden, you have to take special care to keep the weeds from choking the newly germinating roots of your saplings, and denying them the nourishment they need. When the latter are strong & sturdy, they will THEMSELVES in turn choke the weeds.

      The most efficient way of shielding those first generations would indeed have been to drive the existing Canaanite peoples from the land.

      Because B’nai Yisrael failed to do that, circumstances ultimately FORCED the mutually-squabbling Hebrew tribes to unite.

      However, it does not follow that the same policy of expulsion of “the others” was what was called for in subsequent generations as the People became more & more of a nation. I would submit that if indeed expulsion was what was called for, that such a command would’ve been repeated again & again.

      All of which is not to say that it might not, in fact, come to that for the PRESENT generation — but rather that if it does, it will not be for the same reason, and shouldn’t be confused with it.

    12. Kufar Dawg says:

      There are several of us at this site who were already aware of that.

      What is most frustrating, however, is that the MFA (and other arms of G.O.I.) ALLOWS the myth to stand without challenge. This, in turn, makes it hard for us to successfully debunk it in the broader, American & international culture.

      Um, as Israel marched on Damascus and Cairo the Soviets began loading their massive troop transports for a direct intervention in
      the Yom Kippur War. If the US hadn’t begun a similar mobilization under the auspices of Nixon and the Soviets had carried out their direct, military intervention I imagine the Yom Kippur War would’ve taken a turn for the worse.

    13. Ted Belman says:

      The above rebuttals add greatly to our understanding.

    14. Joe Hamilton says:

      George Friedman has no idea what he is talking about. He is a total fraud who promotes himself as some type of incredible expert on international affairs. In reality , he has never had any position which would remotely make him an expert on anything. His statement that Israel has to be the puppet of other nations because they have to rely on other nations for ” resupply” in case of another war is laughable. Apparently George the fraud has been too busy to notice the current year is 2011 not 1973. I have seen a list of Israel’s defense related exports vs defense related imports for the last 2 years. Except for the US , Israel imports essentially nothing which is defense related from other nations. Israel exports defense related items to over 50 countries. As for the US , the list of defense related imports from the US contains nothing , I repeat nothing, Israel could not manufacture themselves.

    15. Dr. Moshe Israel says:

      I agree with the above made comments and must emphasize that Friedman must have some ulterior motive (s) for recommending his bizarre formula that Israel should give away land to its enemies to be more ‘secure’. This formula other than being illogical has been denied by ALL the military strategists that have looked at Israel’s defensive lines. In addition, this so-called ‘expert’ ignores the fact that Judea and Samaria are the backbone of Ha Shem’s legacy, certainly Tel Aviv and Netania are not. It is very disappointing to have ‘Stratfor’ repeat the same crappy logic of a Peres or a Bardak.

    16. The old lines are indefensible. Not for nothing The late and distinctly dovish Israeli foreign minister Abba Eban refer to them as “the Auschwitz lines.”

      A Palestinian state in Judea and Samaria and Gaza will be irredentist and almost certainly Islamist also.

      Most frightening is the concept of a “contiguous Palestinian state,” which Obama emphasized twice. That would chop Israeli into two parts. The so-called land swaps–more trash talk.

    17. Underzog says:

      I agree…. I don’t trust this Friedman. Did you say Tom Friedman? Whether his name is Tom or George, Israel should not retreat. As long as The Messiah is in office, Israel cannot expect any help and may even have to deal with an attack by the U.S. a la Samantha Power. She said, albeit in obtuse, accademic language, that Israel will have to be invaded so a Pali terror state can be established.

      Is this George Freidman wealthy? Maybe he can give some of his wealth to me. It would make me more secure.

    18. jomar says:

      Stratfor was a propaganda mouthpiece for the southern Slavs as they perpetuated the Serb genocide of Albanians…
      Or one might say that as Al-Jezeera is to the Jihadist, Stratfor is to the Slavic Nazi…
      the only reason to observe their diatribe is to glean an understanding of where demagogues currently target their angst!

    19. jerry says:

      I don’t waste my time reading George Friedman any more. His so called “intelligence” is an insult to my intelligence. I believe he is working for Hussein Obama.

    20. Norman says:

      It seems to me that borders that are difficult to defend is exactly what creates the Israeli need for external re-supply.This precludes a long war in which domestic industry would be able to produce its own.Mr Friedman, who by the way, fell in love with Barack Obama and apparently remains smitten, also forgets that many nations require external lines of supply and yet decline to commit suicide.Britain and the Soviet Union in WWII are two such examples.In fact,the fear of the “world community” that it’s Arab clients will fall victim to the badly concealed Israeli nuclear arsenal is what guarantees their attention to Israel’s continued existence.Certainly, it is neither their good will or sense of justice

    21. dweller says:

      “If the US hadn’t begun a similar mobilization under the auspices of Nixon and the Soviets had carried out their direct, military intervention I imagine the Yom Kippur War would’ve taken a turn for the worse.”

      Not too sure about that, Dawg.

      Yes, that [your above assertion] was, of course, the argument that was made at the time.

      However, one could just as easily argue that if the IDF, now already across the Canal, had been permitted to DESTROY the bottled-up, Egyptian Third Army

      – a project that, given the specific circumstances, could eaily have been completed in a very short time –

      and if the IDF drive on Damascus could’ve been completed (again, a very real prospect at that moment),

      that not only would the war have “taken a turn” for the BETTER, but also that the region’s future could have been stabilized in a much more satisfactory manner than did in fact come to be the case.

      Think about it:

      Sinai still in Israel’s hands,

      and G.O.I. able to effectively dictate the terms of any peace treaty.

      By the time the Soviets arrived (if they were really planning to come in the first place), the party would’ve been over.

      Can’t help suspecting, Dawg, that the US intervention had more in it for the State Dept’s agenda, and Kissinger’s connivings, than it did for the Jewish state.

      One man’s opinion, of course.

    22. dweller says:

      “As for the US, the list of defense related imports from the US contains nothing , I repeat nothing, Israel could not manufacture themselves.”

      Spare parts & ammo backups? — in sufficient quantities for a protracted conflict?

      – and adequate storage facilities for same?

    23. Frumious Falafel says:

      1) YES, the Soviets made some serious moves towards the end of the ’73 war – in fact one report *I* read stated that there were MORE TANKS in Syria right at the end of the war than at the ENTIRE BATTLE of Stalingrad! It said Israel was all ready to drive the 30+ miles straight into Damascus, but that the Russian tanks were literally — think about this LITERALLY so numerous that they actually made it impossible — the simply FILLED UP THE ENTIRE SPACE that Israel would have had to drive through with MASSIVE RUSSIAN Tanks — further their line was SO WIDE that Israel could NOT even do an end run!!! I mean talk about going to the Nth degree (the Russian’s) to save their stupid little ally Syria from quote, end quote “embarrassment.” My G-d what a waste filling that WHOLE area up with T-whatever they were called tanks! (T-50-something)

      2) I USED to read Stratfor until I did detect a slight anti-Israeli bent hidden in oh-so-non-emotional verbiage. What is unbelievable is that NOW, it’s NOT clear at all that Israel WOULD need resupply from ANYONE, they have one hell of an arms creation business going on.

      3) This business of Israel “clearly winning” the wars before 67 and not doing as well after — this is such an easy thing to backhand off the page — sorry, to “swipe” or SWAT off the page — It’s the difference that SO SO SO many people make between:

      C A U S A T I O N

      and

      C O R R E L A T I O N

      It’s is true what he says, but it’s merely a CORRELATION. ONLY A THOUSAND THINGS in both technology, political landscape ,etc etc (must I list them all) HAVE (gasp) CHANGED GEORGE since 67! OH my G-d, really? He remarks, you mean there are OTHER variables that have changed too? That’s right George. Thus you’re comparing apples to oranges. It’s so NOT CLOSE that it’s laughable.

      TECHNOLOGY CHANGES ALL WARS — EVERY SINGLE LAST ONE of them. And will continue to do so. And finally the remark of the Prussian, Freddie the big sh*t, Yes he’s right — BUT he’s talking about areas the size of POLAND and RUSSIAN and FRANCE and GERMANY. For Christ’s sake, NOT a country that is smaller than New Frickin’ Jersey! Oh my G-d “he who defends all — all of what George? A few extra square meters of buffer — buffer that gives indication of ANY soldiers/tanks walking in — and precious time is the result for the IDF if that were to happen G-d forbid.

      And that leads us to the Missiles issue — which is a subset of the technology changes everything. I’d FAR FAR FAR rather have a LARGE amount of spread out people when the missiles come raining in (and yes, unfortunately they will), as opposed to George’s “hmmm, maybe packing everyone into a sardine can will make them safer for missiles”????? He never addressed this absolutely OBVIOUS question. There have been endless studies by the military about whether troops (and in Israel EVERYONE is a “troop_ should be spread out or coalesced.

      Pre-rifles (and the spinning bullet, with muskets flying off in every direction, they packed everyone together, then with rifles and CERTAINLY with the invention of the Gatling gun, the COMPLETE OPPOSITE became true, and doctrine was to SPREAD SPREAD SPREAD and hide behind tanks (I’m skipping a lot, esp the horrid period of 1914 – 1917 when they had to LEARN that lesson instead of just figure it out by Euro-Generals literally MURDERING European young men, who despite their probable anti-Semitism, I still feel bad for, also since the armies included Jews(!) — an entire generation of young men) – and if you go back even further, you see that this grouping and spreading has oscillated over the past 500 years — Keegan write ALL about it(!)

      Do you know that in WWI Almost ALL the tank crews died… (once they were brought in at the very end) and HOW did they die you ask? Because they didn’t have an exhaust pipe, and they all suffocated on Carbon Monoxide! It’s incredulous.

      Anyway, it has more or less stayed that way — spread out platoons, with cover behind tanks. The big NEW variable now is of course the missiles. And EVERYONE knows that TEL AVIV is now the BULLS EYE of both Hezbollah and Hamas and they can BOTH reach it. What’s amazed me is that serious — 25 page long studies in Janes and their colleagues have war gamed it out and concluded that in fact, NOT millions, NOT hundreds of thousand NOT Tens of thousands but a few thousand at MOST…..at MOST(!) will be casualties (either injured or dead). This is unbelievable (good, sad, but good news) It means Israel SURVIVES! And this ALSO included Iran firing in all kinds of things — even nuclear — for if ONE nuke gets fired, Israel flattens Iran, it’s just that simple.

      So this whole “study” is just pure bogus nonsense to anyone who has any background in reading either military history in general or better yet, both that AND Israel’s military history. It’s actually embarrassing for his company I would think — it’s so obviously & transparently full of holes.

      Oh yes, one last thing — someone said some nonsense about the Russians almost wiping out Israel. But we were saved by Nixon. Now this is AFTER the resupply business. Yes it is true that the Russians started making “some moves” (which later were shown to be merely ORDERS, that were NOT followed) — but even if they were or equally as important, if the US thought they were going to bring in Russian squadrons of planes — the US and Nixon did NOT, I repeat did NOT call the USSR’ bluff b/c of Israel! They did it b/c of a little thing called the Cold War which had terms like “the domino effect” floating around in everyone’s mind — thus the US called the Russian’s bluff purely out of US vital national foreign interest (in the mind of the US) — there was “oh gee, we need to save the Jews) — no frickin way was that happening — read the minutes of the Nixon white house once they hear that USSR planes were given orders somewhere in southern USSR — I think maybe Georgia, I cannot remember. ALL THAT followed was about the COLD WAR…. NOT the Israeli war at that point.

      There is only ONE point that Georgie brings up that is valid and should be made solid if not — and that is Israel should ensure that it has MORE than enough missiles stored all over the place as he is right that Israel should NOT be overly dependent on ANY country other than itself. But he sure wasn’t saying that “for the good if Israel” — that is one thing I came away with after reading his entire piece.

      – FF

    24. Scorpio says:

      Israel must not allow itself to be “advised by her friends” right into an early grave. Israel is here today for its people and is here tomorrow for the dascedents. Once in a millenium the Jews have a chance to reestablish their homeland. Therefore, it’s not only today’s defensible borders that should be considered. What about tomorrow? A hundred years from now?
      In just sixty years the Jewish population of the country has grown tenfold. What will it be two hundred years from now?
      Hold the line, Israel. Your “advisors” don’t care about your future. Love yourself, and think about the future. Circle the wagons, build, create, defend yourself.

    25. Vinnie says:

      Hi, everybody.

      It is my understanding that George Friedman is one of Obama’s favorite analysts. I regret that I can’t remember the precise source for this right now, but it was an open source that was friendly to Obama, and was not meant to smear either one of them.

      Surprise, surprise.

      And if true, that sure explains a lot.

      Yes, George Friedman is quite the fraud (just like Obama). Even before I also detected his anti-Israel bias (sure to make him a candidate for Obama’s ear), I saw him interviewed on FOX a few years back, in which he was predicting with near certainty that Japan and the U.S. would go to war once again at some point in the future.

      Clearly, the guy smoked too much dope in college. He was a pretty big dope to begin with….

      He’s a total idiot. He understands nothing of military affairs or history. Just to use one small example, Israel would have done FANTASTIC in ’73…probably would have been the three or four day war instead of the six-day war, if she’d pre-empted on the first hard intelligence of the impending Egyptian/Syrian attacks. She had the rough time she did PRECISELY because she was concerned about what her primary ally would say or do, and thus hesitated.

      And now, as it seems we are approaching a ’67 deja vu, I only hope that Bibi has the resolve to hit very fast and very hard, tell Obama and the petrodollar-soaked whorehouse/lynch mob masquerading as the “UN” to go f*** themselves, and make absolutely sure that when the dust settles, there is a) no more Iran nuke program, and b) no more PA – any of the factions or related leaders – period.

      One more thing for Arnold Harris:

      I don’t think the real problem is Israelis kissing Obama’s butt. That is A problem, but I think the consensus there among the leaders and led there mitigates largely against this.

      Arnold, we have to work with our fellow Jews here. Israel can’t have a consulate or PR office in every city. They can’t write to every newspaper. They just don’t have the manpower for the grassroots stuff here. That’s up to us.

      And it is our Jews who, as a group, are overwhelmingly too scared stiff to stand up and say anything. Obama should have been booed off the stage at AIPAC. When he met with Jewish leaders a few months ago, they should have left his ears ringing.

      Because we don’t speak up here, our cousins over there have that much less confidence that they have any friends beyond their borders.

      Sadly, the line to kiss Obama’s butt among Jews is very long…and Isarelis are pretty far back in that line…pretty hard to crowd past the legions of Jews here who are still trying to maintain “access”, who still think they can talk “sense” to him.

      He needs to be defeated. That’s our battle. Israel can handle the Arabs. We have to deal with Obama.

    26. yamit82 says:

      Tell me Vinnie, where were you when Bush dragged Israel into the roadmap agreement? What did you have to say when the Israeli delegation was forced to enter the venue through the kitchen so that they wouldn’t brush shoulders with his Saudi Bosses? Where were you when Bush and condi engineered a building freeze enforce till today in Jerusalem and the settlements for a letter not worth the paper it’s written on?

      most of you put all the onus of negatives re: American Israel relations on Obama but overlook and give Bush a pass? Why is that? Because I think behind most of your pro Israel activism is your anti Obama agenda and you have convinced yourself that there is a juxtaposition between the two, which may or may not be true, in view of past American Administrations most recently GWB and Clinton. Israelis are not Democrats or Republicans, for most of us we are for whoever is most favorable and beneficial to our internal interests which are NOT the same as Americas. Therefore no matter who is elected in America they will always choose what they perceive and believe is in American interests. Israel till now has put more often than not American interests over her own. If we ever get a real leader that will change and thus the break is all but inevitable. Obama should have already effected that break but BB caving to every demand has delayed the public open break for now. There is no reason to believe he will change in substance no matter his public statements.

      Personally I believe you are wasting your time with most of American Jewry! Every poll I’ve seen in the past ten years show that Israel is a very low priority for American Jews around 6-10% on the list of priorities and personal concerns, especially among the under 35 group.

      For the most part American Jewry are are mostly JINO’S, are not only not an asset for Israel but they more than not, are not an asset to Jewry.

      As the divide between Israel and America widens the gap between we Jews in Israel and Jewry in America will continue to widen because we will demand in so many words that in the final analysis American Jews choose between Israel and America and Judaism over whatever they believe in. Israel and Judaism will lose those battles. I think you will lose as well even if you manage to replace Obama. The hardcore support for Israel in America is mostly in the over 50 group and the religiously observant. 20-30% of American Jewry, They are not your targets.

      In any event GOOD LUCK!

    27. Kufar Dawg says:

      and G.O.I. able to effectively dictate the terms of any peace treaty.

      By the time the Soviets arrived (if they were really planning to come in the first place), the party would’ve been over.

      Can’t help suspecting, Dawg, that the US intervention had more in it for the State Dept’s agenda, and Kissinger’s connivings, than it did for the Jewish state.

      One man’s opinion, of course.

      The fact us the IDF stopped their successful drives on Damascus and Cairo. Maybe they had access to satellite data that indicated the Soviets were serious and mobilizing.

      I think yamit SERIOUSLY underestimates the value of the satellite-intel Israel was receiving from the US. Who knows?
      Maybe the crossing of the Suez Canal would’ve been impossible w/o it, because aerial recon wasn’t really an option open
      to the IDF at the time.

      Even if the IDF had captured Cairo and Damascus, I wonder if the Soviets could’ve landed their troops elsewhere in the Mid-East
      and N. Africa? After all, invading Damascus and Cairo might be easy, but holding it might be a whole different story.

      It would’ve been nice if the Egyptian army trapped at the Suez had been obliterated. Did the Israelis at least insure the Egyptians didn’t get out w/any of their artillery or armored assets?

      Interesting thoughts as always Dweller. Have a good weekend.

      Long live Israel!

    28. yamit82 says:

      America has vast ammo and equipment pre-placed storage facilities just over the green-line. I assume they are dual purpose either to support American troops in the area if needed or for Israel if needed. In any event if we need them we could take them with or w/out an American OK.

    29. yamit82 says:

      I think yamit SERIOUSLY underestimates the value of the satellite-intel Israel was receiving from the US. Who knows?

      No I don’t but America has a habit of withholding vital intel, or delaying the passing to Israel. That’s why Pollard it rotting in Federal prison.

      You underestimate Israels own capabilities. Today we have our own satellites, some say even superior to anything the Americans have becaause Israel learned we can’t rely on America.

      I said nothing about occupying Damascas or Cairo. We would have flattened both of them, then retreated. We captured everything they had of value used a lot against the Egyptians and had enough ammo and weapons to make the subsequent American resupply less than critical. The only thing I will credit as necessary in the American resupply were aircraft los replacements and anti tank missiles.

      The resupply was critical in the subsequent war of attrition. That however was not the purpose or a considertion of the american decision to resupply Israel.

    30. Yonatan says:

      America has vast ammo and equipment pre-placed storage facilities just over the green-line. I assume they are dual purpose either to support American troops in the area if needed or for Israel if needed.

      The problem with this, is that it can be used by american (or NATO or UN) troops against us. They’re on the other side of the green line…

    31. yamit82 says:

      The problem with this, is that it can be used by american (or NATO or UN) troops against us. They’re on the other side of the green line…

      Still controlled by us and the IDF.

      I also said:

      In any event if we need them we could take them with or w/out an American OK.

    32. yamit82 says:

      The problem with this, is that it can be used by american (or NATO or UN) troops against us. They’re on the other side of the green line…

      This is one of 3 bases the Americans have built in Israel and the West Bank.

      Military Base – Nachshonim Project-Israel:

      Project: Military Base – Nachshonim Project-Israel
      Location: Israel
      Client: Corp of Engineers of the American Army
      Project Value: $125,000,000
      Construction an advanced dry storage base for the armored division of the Israeli army

      The proposed facility construction will be administered under Foreign Military Sales (FMS), and United States procurement laws and regulations. Contract will be awarded and paid in U.S. dollars. Under the Wye River Accords, this procurement is restricted to United States firms, Israeli firms OR United States/Israeli Joint Ventures. In addition, construction materials must be manufactured in Israel, to the extent such materials satisfy contract requirements. Contractors may bring into Israel nationals of the U.S and third countries having diplomatic relations with Israel for the purpose of accomplishing the work.

      Wye-era base built by US set to open
      Arieh O’Sullivan
      12/06/2005 00:02

      Ultra-modern Nachshonim base agreed upon at height of Oslo Accords.

      All based on BB’s agreeing to vacate all of Y&S at the Wye Rive Plantation, agreements. HE AND ISRAEL ARE STILL OBLIGATED TO DO SO AND HE WILL IF WE LET HIM!!! The Americans have lived up to their end of the agreements it seems.

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