Whatever happened to empirical evidence and rational thought
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The motion noted that Israel is an apartheid state and resolved to affiliate EUSA to the Boycott Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement, to boycott Israeli goods in EUSA supply chains and shops, and to mandate the EUSA executive to lobby the University to do the same.
In response,
Denis MacEoin, a senior editor of the Middle East Quarterly, addresses The Committee Edinburgh University Student Association
May I be permitted to say a few words to members of the EUSA? I am an Edinburgh graduate (MA 1975) who studied Persian, Arabic and Islamic History in Buccleuch Place under William Montgomery Watt and Laurence Elwell Sutton, two of Britain ‘s great Middle East experts in their day. I later went on to do a PhD at Cambridge and to teach Arabic and Islamic Studies at Newcastle University . Naturally, I am the author of several books and hundreds of articles in this field.
I say all that to show that I am well informed in Middle Eastern affairs and that, for that reason, I am shocked and disheartened by the EUSA motion and vote. I am shocked for a simple reason: there is not and has never been a system of apartheid in Israel . That is not my opinion, that is fact that can be tested against reality by any Edinburgh student, should he or she choose to visit Israel to see for themselves.
Let me spell this out, since I have the impression that those member of EUSA who voted for this motion are absolutely clueless in matters concerning Israel, and that they are, in all likelihood, the victims of extremely biased propaganda coming from the anti-Israel lobby. Being anti-Israel is not in itself objectionable. But I’m not talking about ordinary criticism of Israel . I’m speaking of a hatred that permits itself no boundaries in the lies and myths it pours out. Thus, Israel is repeatedly referred to as a “Nazi” state.
In what sense is this true, even as a metaphor? Where are the Israeli concentration camps? The einzatsgruppen? The SS? The Nuremberg Laws? The Final Solution? None of these things nor anything remotely resembling them exists in Israel , precisely because the Jews, more than anyone on earth, understand what Nazism stood for. It is claimed that there has been an Israeli Holocaust in Gaza (or elsewhere). Where? When? No honest historian would treat that claim with anything but the contempt it deserves. But calling Jews Nazis and saying they have committed a Holocaust is as basic a way to subvert historical fact as anything I can think of.
Likewise apartheid. For apartheid to exist, there would have to be a situation that closely resembled things in South Africa under the apartheid regime. Unfortunately for those who believe this, a weekend in any part of Israel would be enough to show how ridiculous the claim is. That a body of university students actually fell for this and voted on it is a sad comment on the state of modern education. The most obvious focus for apartheid would be the country’s 20% Arab population. Under Israeli law, Arab Israelis have exactly the same rights as Jews or anyone else; Muslims have the same rights as Jews or Christians; Baha’is, severely persecuted in Iran, flourish in Israel, where they have their world centre; Ahmadi Muslims, severely persecuted in Pakistan and elsewhere, are kept safe by Israel; the holy places of all religions are protected under a specific Israeli law. Arabs form 20% of the university population (an exact echo of their percentage in the general population). In Iran , the Baha’is (the largest religious minority) are forbidden to study in any university or to run their own universities: why aren’t your members boycotting Iran ?
Arabs in Israel can go anywhere they want, unlike blacks in apartheid South Africa . They use public transport, they eat in restaurants, they go to swimming pools, they use libraries, they go to cinemas alongside Jews = something no blacks could do in South Africa . Israeli hospitals not only treat Jews and Arabs, they also treat Palestinians from Gaza or the West Bank. On the same wards, in the same operating theatres.
In Israel, women have the same rights as men: there is no gender apartheid. Gay men and women face no restrictions, and Palestinian gays often escape into Israel, knowing they may be killed at home. It seems bizarre to me that LGBT groups call for a boycott of Israel and say nothing about countries like Iran, where gay men are hanged or stoned to death. That illustrates a mindset that beggars belief. Intelligent students thinking it’s better to be silent about regimes that kill gay people, but good to condemn the only country in the Middle East that rescues and protects gay people. Is that supposed to be a sick joke?
University is supposed to be about learning to use your brain, to think rationally, to examine evidence, to reach conclusions based on solid evidence, to compare sources, to weigh up one view against one or more others. If the best Edinburgh can now produce are students who have no idea how to do any of these things, then the future is bleak. I do not object to well documented criticism of Israel . I do object when supposedly intelligent people single the Jewish state out above states that are horrific in their treatment of their populations.
We are going through the biggest upheaval in the Middle East since the 7th and 8th centuries, and it’s clear that Arabs and Iranians are rebelling against terrifying regimes that fight back by killing their own citizens. Israeli citizens, Jews and Arabs alike, do not rebel (though they are free to protest). Yet Edinburgh students mount no demonstrations and call for no boycotts against Libya, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Iran. They prefer to make false accusations against one of the world’s freest countries, the only country in the Middle East that has taken in Darfur refugees, the only country in the Middle East that gives refuge to gay men and women, the only country in the Middle East that protects the Baha’is…. Need I go on? The imbalance is perceptible, and it sheds no credit on anyone who voted for this boycott.
I ask you to show some common sense. Get information from the Israeli embassy. Ask for some speakers. Listen to more than one side. Do not make your minds up until you have given a fair hearing to both parties. You have a duty to your students, and that is to protect them from one-sided argument. They are not at university to be propagandized. And they are certainly not there to be tricked into anti-Semitism by punishing one country among all the countries of the world, which happens to be the only Jewish state. If there had been a single Jewish state in the 1930s (which, sadly, there was not), don’t you think Adolf Hitler would have decided to boycott it? Of course he would, and he would not have stopped there.
Your generation has a duty to ensure that the perennial racism of anti-Semitism never sets down roots among you. Today, however, there are clear signs that it has done so and is putting down more. You have a chance to avert a very great evil, simply by using reason and a sense of fair play. Please tell me that this makes sense. I have given you some of the evidence. It’s up to you to find out more.
Yours sincerely,
Scotland is in the grip of the so called Scottish National Party run by an extreme leftist called Alec Salmond.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2005548/David-Cameron-rejects-Salmonds-bid-flood-recession-hit-Scotland-migrant-workers.html
Scots voted for him in droves after years of rattling their begging bowls under the noses of the British labour Party to very little effect.
It seems to me classic Marxist false flag tactics to campaign as a Scottish NATIONALIST while promoting a blatantly ANTI-NATIONALIST agenda.
And of course Jew hatred is the Plat-du-Jour for any good leftist
Especially in Scotland. I studied there (in Glasgow), ending in 1967 (my final exams took place during the six-day war) and know how spirited my fellow students were. Now, it seems that the much vaunted “Scottish education” has fallen flat on its face.
Shame on those who allowed/promoted this. The students of Edinburgh University (and if I’m not mistaken, Glasgow University too) are a disgrace.
Would it not be appropriate and eminently justified if these morons masquerading as intelligent University students who voted overwhelmingly in support of the BDS motion against Israel, could be legally precluded from benefiting from all the amazing innovative and revolutionary technological/medical advances which are the brainchild of Israeli genius? The dominance of such puerile lock-step adherence to leftist destructive ideologies among academia today must be vigorously and constantly repudiated.
On this forum, what happened is that empirical evidence and rational thought have been under furious assault by Yamit, Shy Guy, Yonatan and Andrew whose only source of evidence for any political debate is Moses.
American Eagle:
Yamit, Shy Guy et may have gone thro’ the Isarel experience unlike those who haven’t lived in Israel and truly experienced the hatred coming out of the Arabs or those visitors who come for two-three weeks and go back with a differnt view. All the empirical evidence will NOT WORK with Muslims or any irrational people especially with respect to the Jewish people; it is written in the Koran, go read it.
Hatred against the Jewish people is first and foremost and if you haven’t got that yet, then all the empirical evidence and appeasement does not work. It only leads to further dhimmificationof people like you are well-meaning but haven’t picked-up on the Islam-sthick!! Kapit? and Yamit may have gone way beyond that, being Jewish as some of us have. But, I do like some of your comments. S, keep them coming.
Isaac, join many of us here and take the pledge. American Ego has been repeating the exact same mantras here for a year or so now. The same thing over and over again.
Isaac, you are obviously not familar with my long standing opinion expressed time and time again on this forum on what Israel needs to do.
I am far more aggressive on behalf of Israel than most Jews, certainly the vast majority of American Jews. I have made common sense suggestions which would shut down any and all bogus talks on any subject with anyone as long as the Hamas Charter and other Pali charters are completely and publicly amended to accept Israel as a Jewish state and they all also renounce violence – not just in written agreements which are meaningless in their case but their official charters seem to mean something to them.
This is just to “talk”. No Psli leader could live for more than 24 hours if they accepted my common sense suggestions, so there would be no bogus talks.
I have also suggested that withdrawing from Gaza was a mistake and that Israel should annex Gaza and the West Bank at the next opportunity which would also make the settlements more defensible.
How the hell do you defend building settlements on land that you also conceded is “negotiable” and may therefore not belong to you. Then you withdraw from Gaza and destroy the settlements there to prove that they should not have been built in the first place.
What I object to is these intellectually bankrupt morons like Yamit, Yonatan, Shy Guy and Andrew bad-mouthing Christians and refusing to discuss POLITICAL issues without citing what Moses wrote thousands of years ago.
Citing Moses is designed to a) show Jewish supremacy and bigotry, and b) shut down any common sense discussions based on the real world and it makes a joke out of a public, worldwide, political discussion forum. It would be prefectly fine in a synagogue.
I hope you understand my position now.
Yonatan, Listen to Shy Guy. Move your discussion forum to the nearest synagogue where you can cite Moses all day long and everyone will nod in agreement. Out here in the real world you are helpless like a deer in the headlights.
This will also help Ted because the quality of the forum will improve considerably as members discuss issues based on the real world and keep the Torah for religious purposes where it really belongs.
What good is a forum where a small cabal of bigots can shut it down by citing religious texts?
@AmericanEagle -I disagree. I do not like gratuitous insults that some people offer. But I think , that for the most part ,their contributions have been positive.
Lt. Col. Howard, thank you for your service, Sir! In case you are new here, I have no problems with the anti-Christian bigotry, insults and abuse because it exposes their basic character, and I can give as good as I get even when considerably outnumbered as I often am.
However, with all due respects, I am at a loss to understand where their contributions have been positive “for the most part”. Some of it is a relentless assault on the Israel-US alliance, which must make the members of Hamas happy. A lot of it is running and hiding behind what Moses wrote thousands of years ago which is intended to shut down any further rational discussion of a real world issue.
I have asked them to take discussions based on what Moses wrote where they belong – in a synagogue – and leave this forum for discussions that everyone can make sense of, but they insist on trying to ram religious texts down our throats.
AmericanEagle Said:
I wonder how you define this.
You repeatedly denigrate Judaism for its picayene rules and you denigrate liberal Jews for voting for Obama. Would you call this antisemitism or anti Jews bigotry. In all likelyhood you would call it fair comment.
AmericanEagle Said:
Time and again you say this. Yet you have been told time and again that nobody denies that the relationship has positive elements. The people of whom you speak, go on to list the negatives and opine that on balance Israel would be better off going it alone. Yet you call this “a relentless assault.” I think it important that everyone be educated to both sides of the coin so I appreciate the info they bring to the table.
American largesse is not cost free. Most analysts of the relationship believe that the US gets more than it gives.
Most people that I know understand the pros and the cons, though to a lesser degree, and they are not ready to go it alone.
Very easy. All you need to do is read posts by Yamit, Yonatan, Shy Guy and Andrew and you will see for yourself the brazen abuse of Christians as well as the most vile abuse of Christ personally. According to them no Goyim are ever to be trusted. What?! Israel would not even exist in its current form in its current location were it not for Goyim.
Not only is it fair, it is also true. It has nothing to do with anti-Semitism but anti-liberalism and anti-stupidity. I attack liberal Catholics on other forums for the same thing and they only voted for Obama by 54%. Only blacks [96%] and Muslims [89%] voted for Obama in larger percentages than Jews [78%].
Every American Jew who voted for Obama knew about communist Frank Marshall Davis and Islamic-terrorist Rashid Khalidi and domestic terrorist Bill Ayers and openly anti-American and openly anti-Semitic Rev. Jeremiah Wright and openly anti-Semitic Imam Farrakhan who called Judaism a “gutter-religion” bragging that they had selected Obama – and these Jews voted for him anyway. What the hell is that?
No one would be happier than me if I did not have to deal with the religious and racial bigotry of the four individuals mentioned above and the anti-Americanism of Yamit. I have even asked them to take their Torah-based political discussions to the nearest synagogue and stick with political realities that Israel has to live with on this forum.
I have been a supporter of Israel from day one – even before I became an American. Why would I have a problem with Judaism when my own religion was founded by a Jew who remained a Jew all his life? I never refer to Judaism and its practices unless it is to push back against an attack on Christianity.
I picked up on something Yamit had once written bragging about vengeance being an essential part of Judaism. Then there are the numerous references to Jewish exclusivity and intolerance, most recently in the unbelievable and scurrilous attack on Glenn Beck by Moshe Feiglin which I will not repeat here.
None of the Jews I know are like these morons, so my problem is not with Judaism or the vast majority of Jews.
My responses are not to those who say this but to the Yamits who do not.
That would be an idiotic analyst if not a supremely delusional one. America would not even be affected if Israel disappeared – we have half of all Jews already and most of the rest are touring India – but democracy is enhanced by Israel’s presence and the US is not about to let it go no matter what and even Imam Obama would be unable to change the Goyim American support for Israel, which comes at a tremendous cost in blood and treasure, but that’s the American way – “No better friend, no worse enemy.” I think every decent Israeli has this same motto.
You know we have your back and we know you have ours. Only a moron would deny this. One has to be insanely stupid to weaken this long standing alliance for any reason. I, for one, will never let any such attack pass without a response.
I am happy that Various commenters that you have named, teach the rest of us what the Torah and Talmud say about jewish values. As a Jew I am glad to be educated about my religion. That is not to say that I want to apply that thinking to our actions today. That’s me, I am secular. But often times we can learn a great deal about how to conduct ourselves in war and peace from the study of Jewish texts.
As for their attacks on Christianity and/or Christians, they do not do so gratuitously. They are usually responding to some Christian reference in a comment about Jesus or other dogma. They utterly reject the Christian religion not because they are bigots but because they don’t believe in it, any of it and don’t want it put in their face.. They would have no reaction to Bhuddism or Hinduism because they have nothing to do with Judaism but its different with Christianity because Christianity had its roots in Judaism. It is different because Christianity had its origin in Judaism. Does that make them bigots? I think not.
Like I said befor, If no Christian would refer to Jesus on this site, neither would they. As you know I have welcomed Christians here and appreciate their support, whether it is for secular or religious reasons. I do not like it a bet when they reject Christian support and try to stop them and stand up for Christians.
Yet the fact remains that historically, Jews have suffered at the hands of Christians. So their is great reluctancde to relying on them. The history that you speak of is only 50 years in duration. Nothing to count on from the Jewish historical perspective.
Nevertheless I give them the benefit of the doubt and welcome the new era. But in no way would I shut up those who remain suspicious. I tolerate that view. You don’t.
I know enough Jews to know these supremacist bigots have the values of the worst aspects of Judaism.
Bull…., ….er, au contraire. They initiate the attacks, just like Moshe Feiglin did on Glenn Beck for no earthly reason than to get some attention at Beck’s expense. How does that strengthen Israel?
Vicious and abusive personal attacks on Christ are gratuitous by definition. He was the antithesis of what these Jewish supremacist bigots stand for.
Repeating this falsehood does not make it correct – it only makes it a repeated falsehood.
I appreciate what you do. This is not about you – other than you tolerate and make excuses for these vile bigots who dilute the quality of your forum by trying to shut down rational debate by running and hiding behind Moses whenever their brains shut down and they cannot deal with the real world we live in.
You can go on whining about selective anecdotes about history or you can grow up as a community and realize that there would have been no Israel without the Goyim – mostly Brits and Yanks – who expended vast amounts of blood and treasure that Israelis benefited from. Civility and being a part of the western democratic alliance is all they expect in return.
Pretty amazing. You cannot tolerate peaceful Christians whom every Jew has the right to reject and want legal curbs on their freedom of speech, but you can tolerate hate-filled Jewish bigots who personally abuse Christ and Christians and liken them to Islamic terrorists. How does this compute?
I would gladly tolerate these morons if they took their religious discussions to a synagogue and stopped polluting the political discourse here as if we are attending a Talmudic class. In the real world we have to deal with obvious realities. When it is a public forum with several Gentiles, stick to the real world.
Attacking the Israeli-US alliance with bogus bullshit questioning everyone’s intentions but their own, harms the cause and the alliance on the margins and puts lives in harms way. With friends like these Israel and the US don’t need enemies. Thus they are allies of the enemies. I could give a crap about their intentions.
I receive several hundred e-mails and bulletins every day. Even with screening by my staff I read over hundred. Ted does a magnificent job. His selection of articles is first-rate which tells me that he must read many many more to make such a good selection. My only problem with Ted is the following: so many of your articles of good that I spend an inordinate amount of time on your site which means that I don’t get other things done like getting enough sleep, reviewing my personal correspondence, etc.
I read the replies both for the factual comment and for their feeling tones.
Personal insults and going off on tangents harms the dialogue. This is not a debate in which to score cheap points it should be an ongoing productive conversation introducing facts and viewpoints useful to all of us.
Again thanks to Ted for all your efforts in behalf of all of us.
Let us all join in our mutual thanks to Ted and to each other for taking the effort to reply.
Amen. You bullshitters listen to a real-life hero, gentleman and scholar. Discuss your religious content with your Rabbi and your Bible study group. Leave this forum to discuss what Israel seriously needs to do from here on out.