OSLO ACCORDS and maps
A cursory view of the map clearly indicates that B and C are inseparable in terms of what we can annex. The Settler’s Plan suggests a swap of some C lands for B lands . This map is as of 1995. Since then there has been considerable construction east of the greenline. Since this plan will never be accepted, we should just draw a border line that suits us and just do it. Thereafter we could negotiate on the rest. Ted Belman
Oslo I Accords (Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements)
Oslo II Accords (Interim Agreement on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip – 1995)
Administrative divisions of the Oslo Accords
From Wikipedia,
The Oslo Accords created three temporary distinct administrative divisions in the West Bank and Gaza Strip until a final status accord would be established. The areas are not contiguous within each other but rather distributed depending on the different population areas as well as Israeli military requirements.
Area ‘A’ – full civil and security control by the Palestinian Authority. This area includes all Palestinian cities and their surrounding areas, with no Israeli settlements. Entry into this area is forbidden to all Israeli citizens. The Israel Defense Forces maintain no presence, but sometimes conducts raids to neutralize militants. This constitutes 2.7% of the land area. [1]
Area ‘B’ – Palestinian civil control and joint Israeli-Palestinian security control. Includes areas of many Palestinian towns and villages and areas, with no Israeli settlements. These areas constitute 25.1% of the land area.[1]
Area ‘C’ – Full Israeli civil and security control, except over Palestinian civilians. These areas include all Israeli settlements (cities, towns, and villages), land in the vicinity of these localities, most roadways that connected the settlements (and which Israelis are now restricted to) as well as strategic areas described as “security zones”. These areas constitute 72.2% of the land area.[1]
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In 2006, Yesha Council proposed this Plan. You can see how complex it is. Is it workable?
Ted,
I see your point in arguing inseparability of Area B and Area C for purposes of immediate annexation by Israel. But an important point might be to determine the relative percentages of present Arab population in Area A cities as opposed to the smaller Arab villages in Area B. Obviously, we would want to see Yoram Ettinger’s finely tuned demographic data and not the inflated bullshit published by the UNO and their anti-Israeli facilitators.
Even if Israel annexes only Area C, that act alone precludes any possibility of setting up even a quasi-viable Arab state in Yehuda and Shomron. But annexing Area B along with Area C leaves the Arab Area A cities no choice but to accept whatever local autonomy that Israel would agree to.
Another point to consider however is this: If the PLO leadership goes along with breaking up the Oslo agreement, then Israel is free to define its own maps and can use superior force to assert Jewish national rights anywhere and everywhere in Yehuda and Shomron.
By all means, let us see the newest maps and Ettinger’s demographic specifics.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
Move the hostiles onto reservations.
The “Arabs” who live in Israel (if they don’t accept the Jewish State, they should not be accepted) gain what legitimacy they may have from compliance with, or acceptance of, the Oslo Accords. Part of those Accords, in fact a precondition thereto, was the acceptance of the “Jewish State” by the PLO which automatically activated UN General Assembly Resolution 181 (1947), which at Part.I, Section C states:
Further along, at Part.I, Section C, Chapter 3, it states:
Now, as recognition of the “Jewish State” by the “Arab State” (and vice versa) was a necessary precondition to the Oslo Accords (and was actually affected) then withdrawal thereof is invalid under International Law. A deal was done, based upon the existence of a certain set of conditions, that deal being completed in good faith based upon compliance with the preconditions. No law or instrument can vary the effect of the UN General Assembly Resolution (see the first quote). So any move to avoid the consequences of the deal invalidates the deal, one cannot reach a consensus based upon compliance with certain conditions, then renege upon those conditions without reneging upon the deal itself.
Personally, let the Palestinian’s have a State, what State they ‘could’ have is landlocked, their Defence Force does not have heavy weapons, aircraft or armour. They have no port or capacity to import heavy weapons other than by air (which is a very slow process indeed). There is no “Right of Return” once they have Statehood (regardless of what the UN might say now, it cannot overrule a resolution adopted in good faith by the majority of the Security Council which has been acted upon in good faith by at least one party), thereby removing one massive danger to Israel.
When the Arab State fails, as it inevitably will, Israel has the opportunity to test whether the fledgling State can be defended against the IDF. If the Arab State fails out the outset, probably by claiming land they have no capacity to occupy or even Jerusalem as their Capital, then they are a State with territorial designs upon their neighbour, with heavily contested territorial designs upon their neighbour at that. That is legitimate cassus belli, border disputes of this type constituting the reasons for most wars.
Hi Ted,
As I understand it, In 1993 Israel signed a treaty with Arafat and the PLO to form the PA which was ratified and co-signed by the Americans (yes, Bill Clinton and Warren Christopher’s signatures are not only on the documents but also in appended letters of understandings, so the myriad of violations done to Israel are legally the responsibility of the American people, they may not want to admit this, but I guarantee you it will come home to roost one day). This treaty was to all intents under International Law, is a contract between what was termed two high contracting parties and a supplicant (Israel could not as a nation state enter into contracts with supplicants for such territorial tangibles unless they had another party of equal legal stature to act as a voucher for the supplicant , it should have been Egypt, but as the US had played a role in the Camp David accords which had broached “Palestinian autonomy” {the Egyptian/Israeli peace treaty} the US could act as a vouching High contracting party) In that Oslo contract, like any legal contract, Israel was to meet six tangible principle “offers” and the PA was to meet four steps of “acceptances” the Israelis promptly complied and gave all six objects to the PA within the 2nd year, the PA has yet to fulfil one of its four actions even 18 years later. I have been saying to everyone, look when you go out a buy a car or a house under a terms of purchase and you fail to meet payments is there a court anywhere that would allow you to keep that car or house? No there isn’t, and the same should apply here if the PA does not meet terms start taking back the principles you put on the table in good faith. Use the law of contract, stop this nonsense about peace, if the other party can’t meet the lawful terms their using the contract law is nothing but a tactic which has malicious contempt for the “rule of law” and people who defend these “criminal barbarian con men” have no grasp to just how much they endanger themselves should their opponents ever get the message that they can hoist them on their own petard. So far, I see this as an Israeli self inflicted wound in the misguided belief that if they “turn the other cheek” they will be liked, and given peace!!! As naive and well meaning as this belief is, it is plainly and proven unrealistic, and as much as it persists, means that in reality it is a symptom of a mental disorder, a by-product of narcissism. (few can resist the imagination of being a hero in one’s own mind, and this goes a long way towards explaining why Israelis still have trouble confessing to these 18 years of insanity and stupidity) Back to the point, equality before the law is critical to preserve, the media has been sucked into a false narrative and a skewed focus that is now undermining this fundamental principle, by offering the Arabs the notion that because of their so called “disenfranchisement” are to be attended with the “affirmative action” of “rights deluxe” and this will in time destroy the fabric of civility in every country that blindly buys that narrative and adopts that skewed focus and we are now seeing it ravage old and long democracies like Norway, Sweden and Britain. “Palestinianism” like anti-semitism is an emotional virus with a psychpathology that destroys the ratios of reason in the body politic and quickly will skip into other “causes” of any so called others that are in a “presented state of being disenfranchised”. The only way to fight this is by the “rule of law’ with its principles of fact findings to obtain the “truth” the whole truth and nothing but the truth without omissions, or emotions holding any sway , once the truth is seen what is “justice” tends to be self evident. We have learned nothing if we do not realize that peace is not a “process” it is a product of both justice and righteousness, justice base on truth, and righteousness that is not blinded with the hubris of excessive mercy, as the rabbis wrote millenniums ago “he who is merciful to the cruel will in the end be heartless to the innocent”.
Now it is time to move on, the legal frame of Oslo is there, if another attack comes from the Arabs use Oslo and start shipping them out and retaking the deliverables, Bethlehem first, then Hebron, and on, with every attack from them take back more, personally I don’t think they would get beyond three towns recovered before the Arabs would catch on and start trying to use the legalisms of Oslo and start really complying with its terms, however our media has to learn that the biggest mistakes it could make are; one portraying the Arabs as the aggrieved party, and two, implying that there could be any other door to approach other than Jerusalem. Of course preparation before implimentation by the Israeli Foreign Ministry is critical and Danny Yalon’s recent clarification on the legalities of the “West Bank” is a masterstroke “Kol HaKavod” The soft minded hubris of “wanting peace” is emotionally ego gratifying but in truth irrelevant without the clarity possible which the “rule of law” semantics makes both crisp and cogent.
@BlandOatmeal –
Move all muslims east of the Jordan River
Annexing area C makes it very clear that Israel will not cede Judea/Samaria to any Arabs. Areas A and perhaps area B could be granted local autonomy or the option of joining Israel under some conditions. They would need access to Israeli roads, etc., under either choice.
The “Settlers’ Plan”, shown above, is essentially a plan for an Arab reservation in Israel, similar to American Indian reservations. Its borders appear sinuous; but this is necessary because the Arabs have chosen to live in such intimate contact with the Jews. If they want a “contiguous territory”, this is impossible without illegal ethnic cleansing of Jews; they can move to Jordan or Saudi Arabia if they want that. By the way, most European kingdoms, throughout most of their history, had borders similar to the “Settlers’ Plan”, and their existence and well-being was not threatened by this. As long as the Arabs want to live in PEACE with the Jews, they do not need contiguous territory; but if they want war, there is no reason for Israel to give them, or even loan them, anything.
Re incorporating into Israel of State Lands in Yehudah and Shomron as it is under Israeli Law for almost all Lands in other parts of Israel, should be followed by the creation of The Bureau of Arab? Affairs or any other name found plausible. Following existing US formats for the 565 tribes recognized by the US government, Israel must establish also under the Israeli Ministry of the Interior the said Bureau.
Just as in the US, the Yehuda and Shomron Reservations will be under the administration of an Assistant Secretary of the Interior.
It would be impossible for the US or anyone else to find fault with such decision while UN members States have them for many years.
It would be a very powerful move.
SHmuel HaLevi Said:
Perfect! Plus they have experience running the Jericho Casino!
It’s so simple: End the occupation – Arabs out.
As Arnold Harris states
Another point to consider however is this: If the PLO leadership goes along with breaking up the Oslo agreement, then Israel is free to define its own maps and can use superior force to assert Jewish national rights anywhere and everywhere in Yehuda and Shomron.
I would suggest the IDF go-in the moment the Arabs break the Oslo Accords, irrespective of whether the US tries to prevent us. It’s a no-go from there.
Larry Riteman is being to nice. Why do we need to see if the Arabs attack us and see more Israelis soldiers and civilians killed or wounded. Enough is enough!! International Law/Shminternational Law is not going to work in our favor. You can cry till you are blue and claim Bill Clinton and Warren Christopher’s signatures are pn the accords. It’s not going to be worth a damn to Obama as he sits tight and lets the Arab attack and the US does nothing. No more giving-in to the US!!
Sorry, I repeated this sentence “Another point to consider however is this: If the PLO leadership goes along with breaking up the Oslo agreement, then Israel is free to define its own maps and can use superior force to assert Jewish national rights anywhere and everywhere in Yehuda and Shomron”
The short of sweet of this is ‘No more dilly-dallying’. This time tell the US govt, JStreet, all those namby pamby so-called Liberal Jews and the fence sitters “Either you are with us or you are against us”
Am I the only one who thinks these arguments are like trying to untangle spaghetti? These maps were insanity from the start.
Sometimes things are complicated but sometimes they are simple.
The Oslo Accords were illegal as well as stupid on Israel’s part. Ever since San Remo and the Mandate, the Jews and then their state have had the right and obligation to control and settle all of the Land of Israel. Trying to give away even part of it is defined as treason under Israeli law.
In any event, however, since the local Arabs (I cringe at the false term “Palestinian”) have violated every undertaking under the Oslo Accords, they have rendered it a nullity and the situation reverts to the pre-Oslo situation. I.e., Israel has every right to all of Eretz Israel.
The simplest solution: reassert sovereignty over all of Eretz Israel. If the Arabs need a 23rd Judenfrei state, they have ample land and resources within their own nations to create one wherever they feel like doing so.
Davidka is correct. There simply is no substitute for logic.
Annex the entirety of Yehuda and Shomron immediately. That entire territory ought to have been annexed 44 years ago, along with the Sinai Peninsula, no more than a day or so following the great victory of the Six Day War of June 1967. But Jews being what they were, and mostly still are, Israel unwisely chose to hold most of these territories ought as bargaining chips for what they hoped — equally unwisely — would be permanent peace.
There never will be peace between Islam and the Jews, or the local Arabs and the State of Israel. The existence of the one contradicts their religious beliefs. The existence of the other contradicts their own sense of nationalism, and for not a few of them, their very manhood. Nothing in the world could have provided them with a psychological cushion to overcome their feeling of having been beaten in armed and mortal combat by what their culture had taught them was the most despised nation in the world.
But I don’t care at all about Moslem or Arab feelings of wounded pride. Nor could I care less about the imperial interests of the US State Department, the big-time oil monopolies, the Obama administration, or anything else that flies in the face of the need of the Jewish nation to expand the size of its homeland.
After the poisonous international fumes settle, they will find the Israeli government in control of annexed Yehuda and Shomron; the PLO gang sent into permanent exile; Jewish concrete being poured for Jewish apartment buildings in Jewish cities and villages; Jewish asphalt being rolled for Jewish roads to connect all of them with one another and the rest of the State of Israel; Jewish farmlands being restored by Jewish farmers; the Jewish land being guarded by Jewish soldiers.
Then what?
Start spending Jewish money allocated for the sole purpose of buying lands all across Yehuda and Shomron for the future of the expanded Jewish nation. And if resistance sets in among owners of the targeted land? Issue Jewish warrants of eminent domain, pay them fair prices for the land, arrange passports and visas for them, and escort them bag and baggage to the international airport for flights to a new life.
If the main Arab cities are to be left alone strictly as an immediate tactical gesture, appoint Arabenraten to perform the same general function administrative functions in Shchem, Jenin, Ramallah, Tulkarem, Kalkiliya, Jericho, Beit-Lehem, and Hevron that the Judenraten did in Lodz, Warsaw and elsewhere, some 70 years ago. Obviously, they will not be leading their people into death camps, but they will clearly come to understand that their a Neues Ordnung afoot in what they used to dream about as “Falastin”, and that by going along and getting along, they can make themselves rich by fucking over their own people.
Am I as heartless as I sound? More so than any of you could imagine. For enemies and suckers, I have no sympathy or empathy whatsoever. Instead, I laugh about all this sort of stuff, because I fancy myself as still having a sense of humor about real life and its chinoiseries.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
ArnoldHarris knows as well as I that his pipe dream cannot come about. When push comes to shove Israel will always choose the humane path, even at its own cost.
Maybe one day the Jewish nation will surprise the shit out of you.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
aaron1975 Said:
Resolution 181 was a GA resolution as as such was not binding on the members. There are much greater legally binding treaties, agreements and declarations: San Remo, Lof N, mandate, UN charter. All of those accept and encourage the legal right of Jews to settle east of jordan river. This right has never been rescinded. If the Israeli govt allowed jews, not only Israeli Jews, to settle the west bank and “encouraged” them by offering state lands free, in a homestead act similar to US,there would be a land rush. Furthermore, there is no legal reason why those same Jews are restricted from settling in arab population areas just because the GOI says it cannot protect them. GOI should be estopped from preventing the settlement of jews according to international law.
ArnoldHarris Said:
Plane unnecessary, trucks to the various borders would suffice. The army has already learned how in uprooting jews from gaza.
@ ArnoldHarris:
There is the Jewish nation in Israel and Jews mostly self defined out of Israel. One nation we are not. Not ethnically, culturally, or religiously. We speak different languages and have different world views. That’s not how it was supposed to turn out but that’s what we got.
In 50 year or so (see I am an optimist) we will have established a very Jewish culture with a Jewish world view. What is left of the diaspora will be so insignificant that at best they might rate an historical footnote.