Obama holds Netanyahu at “gunpoint”
By Ted Belman
Before forming the present government PM Netanyahu stood for the following
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- no two state solution
- no Shalit trade as was then being negotiated
- no construction freeze and
- no presentation of an Israeli plan for its borders
Since taking office he violated all these supposed red lines. He gave a speech in which he accepted “two states for two peoples”. He made the Shalit trade he previously had opposed. He imposed a 10 month freeze for nothing in return and in many ways imposed a de facto freeze.
And now, it appears he has agreed to present, “comprehensive proposals” for resolving key aspects of conflict within three months.
By agreeing to this and not rejecting the peace process, Israel is accepting negotiations which aim to bridge the gap. Netanyahu has thus crossed another red line.
Bibi had insisted on negotiations without preconditions. But with this latest report that Israel has agreed to present a Plan before negotiations can start, he has accepted the precondition of presenting a plan before negotiations start.
Netanyahu inherited the Shalit negotiations and once complained that he was dealt a lousy hand as though he couldn’t have started all over again. Similarly, he is not prepared to start all over again on peace negotiations and is prepared to play with the hand he was dealt. It too is a lousy hand.
By Netanyahu formally agreeing to present such proposals, he confirms that he is following Olmert and Barak. This is something Bibi has repeatedly said he would not do just as he has always said he is against the Shalit deal.
This goes way beyond playing rope-a-dope to buy time. This shows a seriousness about negotiations and an intention to really negotiate along the dictates of Obama and his proxy, the Quartet.
Netanyahu has to ask for more than he expects to get, yet on the other hand, if he asks for too much the Quartet will say he is not serious and penalize him/Israel for it. Not for a moment, do I believe that this was his idea or that he willingly went along.
The article Knesset visitor blasts Obama and Netanyahu advises that MK Eldad accused Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of buckling under intense pressure from President Barack Obama, who wants to prevent any Israeli retaliation against the Palestinian Authority in its bid to win recognition as a state from the United Nations.
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He (Eldad) charged that Obama was holding Netanyahu “at gunpoint” – the gun being the U.S. threat to go back on its promise to veto the Palestinian statehood bid in the UN Security Council.
Specifically, Obama has demanded that Netanyahu and Israel’s supporters in the United States pressure Congress to abort two pending resolutions to penalize the Palestinian Authority (PA) if it pursues its bid, Eldad claimed.
One would shut off U.S. aid funds to the Palestinians and a second would support Israel’s right to annex the West Bank. The legal justification for such actions, cited by many Israeli officials, would be that the unilateral statehood request would be a direct violation of the 1993 Oslo Accords.
The inescapable conclusion is that Bibi felt he had no choice but to agree with the Quartet’s new Plan in which they proposed that the parties meet for a month and then prepare proposals within the following three months. To my mind the Quartet would not have come out with their plan, at that time, had not Bibi agreed to it.
The Palestinian request for recognition is still with the UNSC and will not be voted on or vetoed until Bibi presents his plan. So Eldad was 100 % correct.
Diplomacy being what it is, the Quartet will do its utmost to get Bibi to better Olmert’s offer. Abbas had offered to allow Israel to keep much less land. Abbas wanted to keep Ariel and much of east Jerusalem including Maaleh Adumin. When Netanyahu formed his government he made it clear that in no way would he match Olmert’s offer. I don’t see how he can avoid it.
When the Kadimah government proposed convergence, there was great opposition to expelling 125,000 Jews. Olmert tried to lessen this number by keeping Ariel and Maaleh Adumin. If he had succeeded, I think as much as 75,000 would have needed to be expelled.
Haaretz published the details of Olmert’s Plan
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Olmert wanted to annex 6.3 percent of the West Bank to Israel, areas that are home to 75 percent of the Jewish population of the territories. His proposal would have also involved evacuation of dozens of settlements in the Jordan Valley, in the eastern Samarian hills and in the Hebron region. In return for the annexation to Israel of Ma’aleh Adumim, the Gush Etzion bloc of settlements, Ariel, Beit Aryeh and settlements adjacent to Jerusalem, Olmert proposed the transfer of territory to the Palestinians equivalent to 5.8 percent of the area of the West Bank as well as a safe-passage route from Hebron to the Gaza Strip via a highway that would remain part of the sovereign territory of Israel but where there would be no Israeli presence.
When his offer, made at the end of his term became public, the Israelis were outraged. It is for this reason that Bibi said he rejected it.
It is clear that Olmert was negotiating swaps. Swaps were first mentioned by the Saudi Government when it presented the Saudi Plan in 2002. The Bush administration insisted that this plan, as amended in the Arab Initiative, be included in the Roadmap. Olmert thus had accepted the idea of swaps even though Res 242 did not mention it or require it.
The Haaretz article indicated that Olmert’s Plan followed up on negotiations in Annapolis, though it was expressed there, that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. His plan was also discussed with the Bush administration who had agreed to finance the development of the Negev to accommodate the expelled Israelis.
And we must not forget that Res 242 allowed us to keep some of the territories and to have secure borders. Oslo was founded on it. Although Bibi flat out rejected Obama’s framework for negotiations last May, by agreeing to present his plan he is in effect accepting it in deed if not in words. It irritates me to be fighting over inches i.e. whether we give them 97.6% of the land vs 100 %. The negotiations should center on whether we give them Areas A and B representing 40% of the land or perhaps 10 or 20% more. The Obama proposal makes a mockery of Res 242.
The Atlantic Mag recently published a report Is Peace Possible and I reported on it here.
This report, like the Geneva Initiative before it, was clearly intended to narrow the gaps and produce a settlement between the Olmert and the Abbas proposals. This is what Obama and the Quartet envisage for a settlement. It most certainly will be based on the ’67 lines with swaps and will require Israel to get less land than she wants and to give more land than she wants. Amb Daniel Kurtzer was one of the advisers on this project and we all know that he is against the settlements and always has been. I believe that the Obama administration, the Israeli Left including Yossi Beilin probably had input as well.
I question some of the population numbers quoted in the Atlantic article. The 500,000 figure for settlers, quoted in the Atlantic may have been right early in the Kadima government but it no longer is. The Jewish population increases at the rate of 6% per annum in the territories and therefor would be well over 600,000 today, five years later. Recently, MK Ketzela said it was closer to 700,000.
Finally it is not by chance that just this week Abe Foxman and David Harris launched their Pledge of silence to minimize opposition to what is going on.
And I haven’t even mentioned the so called right of return and Jerusalem. Both Olmert and Barak have offered to take in a “token” number of “refugees” (perhaps as many as 100,000) and to share or internationalize Jerusalem.
Rest assured that the Golan is next.
There is no way that the Quartet would allow Bibi to get away with drawing up a plan where we get to keep Area C as our opener as an example and there is no way Bibi is going to do that with the gun to her head.
Someone once said that when the Israelis vote in a labor-left government that is what they get but when they vote in a right-wing Likud government what they still get is a left wing government.
The only way Eldad could know enough to be able to charge this with such specificity is if BiBi or an aide TOLD it to him directly (tho under condition of anonymity, etc) — as a means of getting the info out to a supportive public, while maintaining an outwardly “arms’s length” relationship.
If he has the sand for it, he could go in “over the horns” and warn BHO (thru channels) that he will assert full rights under the Mandate, as well as UN Charter Article 80 (which his father had a direct hand in drafting) and annex the territories. This would mean that any proposed Security Counsel Resolution on Pali statehood would itself be subject to charges of flagrant illegality.
I realize the world wouldn’t much care about that, but the US linkage to the Mandate under the Anglo-American Convention of 1924 — together with the invoking of estoppel in re earlier US support of the could be made the subject of a grassroots, US campaign that Congress would support.
Howard Grief’s remarks on the applicability of estoppel to the post-Mandate situation:
“This doctrine prohibits any state from denying what it previously admitted or recognized in a treaty or other international agreement. In the Convention of 1924, the US recognized all the rights granted to the Jewish people under the Mandate [whose text the Convention incorporates verbatim and in its entirety], in particular the right of Jewish settlement anywhere in Palestine or the Land of Israel. Therefore the US government is legally estopped today from denying the right of Jews in Israel to establish settlements in Judea, Samaria and Gaza, which have been approved by the government of Israel.
“In addition, the US is also debarred from PROTESTING the establishment of these settlements, because they are based on a right which became embedded in US domestic law after the 1924 Convention was ratified by the US Senate and proclaimed by President Calvin Coolidge on December 5, 1925.
“This Convention has terminated, but not the rights granted under it to the Jewish people.
“The American policy opposing Jewish settlements in Judea, Samaria and Gaza is a fit subject for judicial review in US courts, because it violates Jewish legal rights formerly recognized by the United States, and which still remain part of its domestic law.
“A legal action to overturn this policy, if it was to be adjudicated, might also put an end to the American initiative to promote a so-called ‘Palestinian’ state which would abrogate the existing right of Jewish settlement in all areas of the Land of Israel that [would] fall under its [i.e., the contemplated ‘Palestinian’ state’s] illegal rule.”
[http://www.acpr.org.il/ENGLISH-NATIV/02-issue/grief-2.htm
Howard Grief, “Legal Rights and Title of Sovereignty of the Jewish People to the Land of Israel and Palestine Under International Law,” NATIV Online: A Journal of Politics and the Arts, Vol. 2, 2004]
This is all “game playing”. We know that the Arabs will never accept the “two states” solution. Abbas can never appear softer than Hamas and Hamas is adamant in rejecting it. Israel’s best ploy now is to keep delaying things until after the next U.S. Election and hope for a change in the presidency. In the meantime Irael has certain realities to deal with, specifically the supply of arms, etc, from the U.S. There is no harm in talking, and talking, and talking — as long as there is no giving. With skill Netanyahu can delay things until after next November when he will know morecexactly what he may face for not a few months but for four more years. Right now talk but give nothing.
I agree with your desires Ted but there is a time and a place for the real hardball decisions to be made and that time is not now. In the meantime we, in truth, hold the best cards.
Joseph,
Shouldn’t Israel be more concerned about their historical roots
and the fate of previous Prime Ministers who attempted to give away
portions of, “THE PROMISED LAND?”
My feeling is that the so-called “palestinians” have no right to a damn thing from the Jewish state. Let their arab brethren accept them into their own countries where land is plentiful. That is what the west should be demanding. The west should be demanding that the arab countries absorb them. That is the only real solution.
As for Abe Foxman, we will not be silent regarding Obama’s anti-Israel policies. It has become clear that the ADL’s agenda under Foxman has been more about shilling for the democrat party rather than as a Jewish advocacy group.
Obama is not going to be around long enough to do any such thing.
Israel has no legal or moral right to build settlements in areas they have admitted are “negotiable” and therefore may not be theirs. They have proven this by dismantling the settlements in Gaza. They should have annexed these areas in 1967 when they acquired them while defending themselves which would have made settlements legally defensible.
They have been honest enough to document this in their founding charters, but no one in the UN, US and Israeli leadership uses this documented evidence in their discussions of this subject.
I’m glad to see someone put “The Promised Land” in quotes because this is a religious faith belief that means nothing in geopolitics. In fact, the “Promised Land” was “unpromised” for centuries until the Ottomans were defeated in WW-I.
I would have agreed with you except that successive Israel governments have accepted the premise of “the so-called Palestinians”.
Israel could have made this part of the status quo in 1967, but unfortunately did not. Now, if they develop a spine, they should still do so at the next opportunity to defend themselves.
Sadly, about 45% of American Jews are still shilling for the Democrat Party.
There is no such thing as a historical right. Ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, Rome, and Turkey learned that painful lesson about the same land. American Indians don’t rule their country now. 44 years of occupation since the Six-Day war, coupled with the indigenous population’s abandonment of the land and de facto Israeli sovereignty, is Israel’s much more valid argument.
Israel appeals to some Christians by recalling Israel’s biblical right to the land, forgetting that most Christians believe they themselves replacements of the Jews as the New Israel. In any case, the land is destined for some Israel, whether old or new, and not for Muslims, who make a religious point of oppressing Christians.
Serbs and Bosnians are still enemies after six hundred years. It takes only a few hotheads to stir people up. Palestinians will always remember what they perceive as Israeli injustice. The most expedient solution is to expel the Palestinians, disperse them, and pressure them into assimilation with other Arabs. Jews preserved their national aspirations in diaspora because of Jewish distinctiveness.
Jews are not settling our historical lands now. The historical lands are exactly the “occupied territories.” The Jewish state was there while the sea coast was dominated first by Philistines, then by Greeks and Romans. Jews held it only for short time, and it was largely a pagan area.
Jews demonstrably have a stronger historical connection to Europe than to Palestine: Jews have lived for 1,900 years of our history in Europe, much longer than in the Lands of Israel.
Cleansing the land G-d gave us is a major commandment. It is arguably the major political commandment. Jews must drive away the inhabitants of the land. There can be no coexistence. Amalekites, Canaanites or Palestinians, who would never be loyal citizens of a Jewish state.
A Jewish state populated by Arabs is impossible.
There is a single reason for Jews to conquer and settle this land: G-d has told us to do so.
I don’t think Netanyahu needs intense pressure to buckle. In fact, he is all too eager to buckle if he thinks he will be able to get around the objections of nationalists in his party and in his coalition. He knows what bones to throw alright!
And if they did? Actually they did in Oslo Agreements and the Road Map agreements, what they are opposed to is recognizing Israel as a Jewish State.
What if they lie to the world and do recognize Israel as a Jewish State? Big deal!! Who cares what they call us? They can always change their minds afterward and what ever excuse they would conjure up will be accepted by all of the worlds governments. It’s our self inflicted trap just waiting to be sprung and it will.
A-Do you really believe Obama would dare do anything now to make Israel a campaign issue with him facing what seems like an uphill battle for re-election? What makes you so secure that any Republican candidate will be more supportive of Israel than Obama. B- Obama is not worse for Israel than Bush if anything he is even weaker. Bush followed Obana’s policy re: Israel quite closely and if there is a difference it’s cosmetic.
May I remind you that under Bush we gave up Gaza, Allowed Hamas to take over Gaza, were forced to give up control of the border between Egypt and Gaza. Were forced to withdraw from Lebanon and forced to accept UN so called Peace keepers who allowed Hezbollah not only to rearm with missiles and rockets they now have 3 times as many and ones that can hit any target in Israel. America allowed Hezbollah to actually take over Lebanon under Bush. America is still sending advanced weapons to the Lebanese Army controlled by Hezbollah. Supplied Gulf states and Saudi Arabia with 30 billion worth of advanced American arms. Nuclear technology to Jordan and Saudi Arabia. Forced us into suicidal Road Map, accepted the Saudi Plan, and not only pressured us into ceasing building in Jerusalem and the West Bank but deducted from our aid packages the dollar values of our building where they didn’t want us to. Do you want a list of what came to be known as confidence gestures by Israel to the Palis forced on us by Bush?
I am always amazed how short peoples memories are especially when blind American political partisanship for either the Democrats or Republicans replaces truth facts, and logical common sense.
I can’t recall more than a few so called pro Israel commenter on this site who criticized Reagan or Bush for their anti-Israel policies.
It’s raining Missiles herein the South…Payback for freeing Shalit..Hamas and the other Terror organizations feel empowered. So far 15 kasams and Grads have it Israels South.
BB deciding how to respond. Consensus here is response will be measured so as not to escalate. Hoping it will stop raining by am tommorrow.
Lots of damage besides a school 8 cars went up in flames when a Grad hit a parking lot in Asdod.
Ashdod School, Apartment Bldg Struck by Rockets; Three Injured
Gaza Arab terrorists fired at least three Grad-style Katyusha rockets at Israel on Saturday, one of them hitting a school in Ashdod.
Two Israelis lightly hurt as seven rockets strike southern Israel
Gaza rocket hits residential building in Ashdod, wounding one man; other rockets explode in Gan Yavne, and west of Be’er Sheva; IDF kills five Islamic Jihad militants just hours before rocket attack.
Rocket from Gaza lands near home in Ashdod; 1 injured
Extensive damage reported as rocket lands in parking lot between 2 residential buildings; 11 rockets fired at South in total; passer-by in Gan Yavne hit by shrapnel; 1 rocket hits empty school in Ashdod.
That would be correct assuming that the Israeli leadership have any such things…
Rocket fire rocks south; injuries reported
South under fire again in wake of IAF attack in Gaza: Alarm sounds in various southern communities. Man hit by shrapnel in Gan Yavne; rocket hits school courtyard in Ashdod. Second barrage targets residential building, one injured. Islamic Jihad claims responsibility
Southern Israel on high alert after Grad explodes near Ashdod
Saudi Price offered today 1,000,000 dollars to any Palis who kidnaps another Israeli soldier.
The terrorists believe with their long range Grads and threats of more kidnappings that they now have deterrence and are saying that Israel and the IDF are afraid to enter Gaza, or come near the border.
This can all be laid at the feet of our cowardly PM BB and his merry band of pygmies. Hamas now have Grads that not only can hit Tel Aviv but much further North.
Tonight there is to be a Large social justice demonstration, organizers won’t cancel because they don’t care about the South and there is no solidarity with a third of the country under attack in bomb shelters. Schools in the south will be closed tomorrow. They should be demonstrating to make Gaza into a GIANT PARKING LOT.
Stupid Jews!!!
I think I’ve tended to criticize you more than Bush, Yamit; though I’m sure “W” didn’t escape my criticism. I criticized you because you seemed to have nothing BUT criticism to offer. Bush was our only alternative: If Kerry had gotten elected, we would still have had Bush; he would just have had a different name. I also spouted off other inane things, which I can’t remember, as did you. Through it all, Laura remained faithful not only to “W” but also to Richard Nixon. Wherever she goes after death, I imagine she’ll be surrounded by Republicans.
The thing that makes Obama worse for Israel than Bush, is that “O” is putting the kind of pressure on Israel during his re-election bid, that Bush didn’t dare do until he was safely into his second term. We have a real choice before us now (ha ha): Romney promises to keep his hair combed and keep on smiling, no matter what; and Herman Cain promises us a chicken in every pot, a car in every garage, and a free pack of cigarettes with every pizza.
I put more faith in the “Occupy” movement, than I do in the next election. Has anyone noticed that Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel was in charge of incarcerating hundreds of protestors? Those energetic young people are as good news for Obama, as the Antiwar Movement was for LBJ. Those antiwar folks demanded CHANGE! and gave us Richard Nixon. Meanwhile, America was so distracted by all its internal turmoil, it was unable to devote enough “attention” to Israel. The latter had to fend for herself, and beat the socks off of all her enemies. Maybe we can get a repeat.
Time for Feiglin…..
I like the parking lot idea. Urban renewal!
Dismantling the Gaza communities “proves” NOTHING — and illustrates nothing (except the capabilities of corruption in the Israeli political system).
Moreover, what the govt in 1967 SHOULD’VE done is irrelevant to this discussion.
They did what they deemed politically possible and desirable under the circumstances they confronted.
Furthermore, permitting areas to be “negotiable” does NOT indicate — or presume or imply — that the areas “may not be theirs [Israel's].” The most that can be said about that is that they are areas over which a decision was made, by the govt in power at the time, to not fight.
The legal reasons are not implicit in the decision.
More significantly though, a policy like you posit would invariably tie the hands of every government that ever followed previous ones.
Except in specific, very narrowly circumscribed conditions — e.g., the creation of a Consititution explictly delimiting govt powers, etc — what one govt does a successive one can UNDO.
It happens all the time throughout the world.
In the absence of an international treaty — where legal rights are confirmed by all pertinent parties — it’s to be expected.
In any case, that’s the LEGAL configuration, and it was a LEGAL judgment that I quoted — offerred by International Law Attorney Howard Grief — that your comment responded to.
The MORAL configuration was not part of Mr Grief’s remarks as I quoted him [above] — and is, at all events, not apparently a fit subject for discussion here anyway, AE, since (as you’ve stated on myriad occasions) you don’t personally acknowledge the authenticity of the written record of the Author of all “moral right.”
Accordingly, you’d be better advised to confine your discourse to the legal side of this matter.
There really will not be a two State solution. There will be one State with the Palestinians in charge of that State. It appears that the Israelis have “given up the ghost” and want no part in governing their own land. When one country allows another country to bomb and send rockets in at will and does nothing to stop it, means that they already have given up the fight.
Today we read Caroline Glick’s latest article generally addressing the Barak-Netanyahu styled “idf” … prowess… No need to repeat what is in her article as most of you will receive it.
And the majority know the facts.
Bottom line is that the the “idf” is not a National Defense artifact under those two and their cadres control. One must disregard
In fact they are only geared to attack Jews and destroy Jewish properties or fabricate “plots”.
“Jewish terrorists” It is and old misnomer used by the PTB here to harm Jews they target.
As all have noticed ALL, w/o exception, Jewish so called terrorist detainees ended up being released due to lack of evidence. But not before the unJews formed the famous “files” that wi haunt those braded for as long as teh “combina” remain in power.
Most likely all the so called Jewish “terror” acts, including mosques and “idf” stored vehicles attacks are either planned by the “Jewish Sektion” aka “yevsektzia” since Stalin years, or by the “idf” hit gangs themselves.
Listening to ghastly “commanders” speak, there can be no doubt about it.
The condition is such that Jews must start considering to prepare for self defense in earnest against all enemies, regretfully including much of the idf general staff, the “yevsektzia”, police special troopers, etc.
They will attack Jewish families, collaborate with the islamic enemy which actions that are common fare since the Rabin_Peres years, destroy homes and fabricate files or falsify “invetigations” to cover up for their islamic “partners”.
BEWARE and PREPARE!
In case you are wondering, this morning I changed the title to the article and polished it somewhat.
I like the changes but my remarks about the old heading still applies…
That is further shown by the the backboneless, (I also polished it… LOL), items fully depending on the Egyptians to “shah-shtile” things.
Some say that the latest rocket attack dead, wounded and damage are part and parcel of the Shalit “deal”. Time will tell who is correct on this. Not a long time either.
This is a good point. The Torah warns Jews that if they allow the nations to stay, “they will be snares in your eyes and thorns in your side.” That warning has been fulfilled to the letter.
The notion a Palestinian Arab state will bring about peace is a lie. People in Israel don’t want to see the Aeabs’ true nature any more than the ancestors of the Jewish people wanted to face who the Canaanites and Philistines were.
There is no courage in Israel today and “every man does what is right in his own eyes.” That is the reality today and until Israel obeys the Torah to the letter, it will never know peace and security in its own land.
Moshe Ami. The first victim of the “deal with the devil.”
When Jews subvert justice and enable evil, the nation gets punished.
Hamas is nothing more than a tool in the hands of G-d to test Israel’s resolve. It was found wanting.
And Israel’s weakness cost a family its husband and father. I liked to say those who defrauded widows and orphans will see themselves be made widows and orphans. It gives me no pleasure to say I was right!
The country should turn now from its evil ways and live before evil consumes more of its children!
Shy Guy would agree with you.
The nation has yet to repent.
As long as Israel allows its enemy to breathe, it rebels against Heaven and rejects G-d’s gift.
More Jews will surely die until then. I have no joy in saying it at all! It is just the truth.
where is Feiglin????
I was in Israel for three weeks, didn’t hear his name once. Not in the news, not in the minds and mouths of Israelis, most of which don’t even know who he is!! His written articles in Makor Rishon are useless!! I was never even able to buy the paper from a newstand, most don’t even carry it!
A bright man, with lots to say, lost in the wilderness! where is Feiglin indeed!
Moshe Feiglin is here.
Since his son was a victim of one of those “accidents” that regularily seem to affect the families of true leaders in the making, we have noticed that Moshe Feiglin has substantially slowed down…
Shmuel,
Are you suggesting that Feiglin’s son was deliberatly targeted to slow down Feiglin???? Ridiculous!
He has slowed down since the accident, for sure. That’s my point, he’s become irrelevant.
Tshuva proves my point. Other than his website, he’s nowhere to be seen. And who knows how many people have access to or knowledge of it.
maybe the jews should support Cain and repudiate obama. If he does not veto then annex judea and samaria.
Bibi has either been bought or eaasily blackmailed since Wye. He has no spine and his word is worthless. We need to change the present political system in Israel to a District representation for the Knesset. The ‘Supreme ‘ court needs to have its members voted on by the Knesset. They should have NO standing on National Security matters.
Why aren’t Israeli leaders treated like grown-ups? They are always cast as school boys being bullied by the USA. Of course, this serves the purposes of these “leaders” because then they can cry “the USA made me do it” when they make a calmitous mistake. I doubt things will change until the Israeli people hold their officials liable for the decisions they make and stop giving them a ready-made excuse for failure.
How far and how low Western civilization has sunk that Obama, his administration and non-Muslim Western ruling elites DEMAND that Israel submit to Islam and surrender to global jihad. There NEVER was an Arab state of Palestine and Jerusalem was NEVER the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. All Palestinian Authority maps show the new state of “Palestine” covering all Israel. It is well known that the Muslim goal is conquest of Israel and a Second Holocaust of Jews.
It is immoral and a huge violation of American and other taxpayers rights that they are forced via their taxes to finance the PLO/Palestinian Authority terrorist organization bent on Jewish genocide.
Not one inch of land to barbaric enemies!
Gaza recently acquired weapons and rockets from Libya. The rockets fired on Israel are from Libya. One of the many evil fruits of the illegal, immoral joint US/NATO/Al-Qaeda/Hezbollah terrorists war.
For some who live in their own little dream world, there is no “proof”, only illogical emotion. To everyone else, dismantling the settlements in Gaza said that they should not have been built in the first place and, along with the unilateral withdrawal, emboldened Hamas and Fatah as well, since it set a possible precedent for the settlements in the West Bank in their eyes. Then, the disproportionate release of Schalit, emboldened Hamas even more while also providing them with more cannon fodder from those who have vowed to become “martyrs”. These unfortunate actions go hand-in-hand with the Israeli position in the West Bank where everything is said to be “negotiable”, which means the setlements may be on land that will not belong to Israel.
Only in your own little dream world.
No one gives a crap about what one self-serving lawyer thinks.
Faith beliefs belong in your heart and mind and in your churcehes and synagogues. No one in the real geopolitical world gives a crap about your self-serving faith beliefs.
Maybe? After all the harm that Obama has done, you are still not sure?
I never allow the cry-babies in this forum to blame US leaders for the decisions made by Israeli leaders. Only after Israel becomes the 51st. US state will US leaders be held responsible for its actions.
This is only because the Palestinians did not accept Israel in 1948 and since. If they had there would have been a Palestinian state alongside Israel.
This is true and has been documented in the founding charters of all the Arab organizations that dominate the Palestinian community. Yet, no one in the UN, US and Israeli leadership uses this documented evidence when discussing the conflict or debating solutions. I have no idea why. It’s as if this evidence does not exist.
I agree. The reason was to try and maintain some influence to compete with the influence of Iran. The US should stop financing these terrorist organizations who have no intentions of making peace with Israel and let the other Arabs finance them if they wish. Save the money for use in the coming wider conflict when the time will come to re-set Iran and some of the others if they wish.
In Israel, “red lines” are like the lines in hop scotch — they’re for jumping over. A sequel for “Find Waldo”: “Find an honest politician.” Naah — too hard to play.
Israel should reject any plan negotiations with Arabs based on the war conditions and Arab aggression from the Gaza. Furthermore, these acts of war are proof of real aggressive intentions of Arabs and opposite results of current “peace” negotiations, i.e. – war.
Israel should have own preconditions for negotiating with Arabs, refuse negotiation on Yerushalaim, refuse any racial ethnic clearance of any territory from Jews (by principle of UN and opposite to Nazi policy crimes) and demand guarantee for peace from Arabs, otherwise any deals become void. Meanwhile, Israel should repudiate/cancel Oslo accord since it was broken recently and many times before. Israel should warn that any state that vote for PA Arab new state should be ready be held responsible financially for dis-functional PA state, including electricity, water and supply.
All I can say is that it frustrates me to no end that it is Israel’s land that countries are fighting against. There is coming a day in the not to distant future, that the whole earth will realize that Israel is God’s land, and when He calls the shots, I do not want to be on a side against Him.
THE BEST THING TO DO IS GIVE THE USA THE BIRD. THAT WILL CREATE A SITUATION THAT WILL PUT CONGRESS AT ODDS WITH LENIN-CARTERii. GUESS WHAT? YOU NOW HAVE A GOOD FORMULA FOR LENIN-CARTERii TO GO DOWN IN DEFEAT, IF IN FACT, THE KING OF THE USA ALLOWS THE ELECTION TO GO FORWARD IN A LEGAL MANNER.
I suppose Netanyahu could come up with some sort of Olmert-like border proposal, and say, “Here’s our border proposal. But they only get this IF they recognize Israel as a Jewish state – and amend the PNC accordingly – AND formally renounce ROR.”
Then, he’s still, in effect, “running the clock”.
Not that I agree with this. I don’t. I’d rather he says, “Formal recognition of Israel as a Jewish state, along with formal abandonement of ROR from the PA, then we talk about border, security, etc. Till then, WE DON’T TALK ABOUT ANYTHING”.
And if the Quartet makes a stink, if Obama makes a stink, if the UN makes a stink, tell them to go to hell.
Let’s see Obama go back on his pledge to veto the PA’s UN gambit in an election year. What a shallow bluff! And even if he is not bluffing, Netanyahu points out that in light of the flagrant violation of both Oslo and UNSCR 242 this represents, the UN has no authority to recognize the PA’s “state”, and Israel certainly is under no obligation to give such a development any credence at all.
At this point, Netanyahu declares Israel a nuclear power.
If the Palis use the UN as an excuse to launch Intifada Three, Israel crushes them mercilessly At the same time, Israel makes very thinly vailed warnings that she ain’t Libya, in case Samantha Powers gets any ideas.
That’s what I’d like to see. I’m not holding my breath.
My extremely powerful suspicion is that something big is brewing concerning Iran. Maybe in a few weeks…maybe in a few months. But before the 2012 election here in the U.S. Bibi needs international support…they don’t want action against Iran – and the likely collateral conflagration, effects on the global economy, etc. – to turn Israel into a pariah state. I think it is this sort of support, or threats to withold the same, which represent the REAL “gun” being held to Bibi’s head by Obama. It ain’t the UN vote. It’s Iran. And, this one is particularly hard to “run the clock” on…Iran doesn’t care about the timing of U.S. elections.
We’ll see. If I’m right about Iran, that would explain a lot.
The first article I ever read by Moshe Feiglin was just after 9/11 entitled “Why America Has Already Lost the War” and is a MUST READ. It was earlier posted Israpundit but has been pulled. I consider it a classic and Moshe brilliant. Life’s trials and tribulations come to test us. Moshe wrote here about his son’s accident and how it changed him, meaning Moshe, not his son:
Abraham took his son Isaac to the mountain and came back changed. I would love to hear how Moshe was changed. Certainly he isn’t now a peacenik, is he? Netanyahu deserves opposition. Lots of it.
Yes Iran could be key.
But every time Israel does something with reservations, everyone soon forgets the reservations. So no matter how Israel pre-conditions its offer, only the offer will be remembered.
Bibi has always maintained that there be negotiations without preconditions and lately Obama has agreed with him. To my mind to be required to present a Plan prior to negotiations is a very serious pre-condition. Negotiations won’t start without it.
Bibi’s position has always been not to discuss borders before knowing what he can expect in return from the Palestinians on issues such as refugees, Jerusalem and recognition of a
Jewish state.
Blair explained in his interview that the Quartet was trying to get detailed proposals from Israel and the Palestinians on borders and security, to gauge how wide the gaps were, and whether there was a basis for negotiation. He makes it sound innocuous which it isn’t. More like ominous.
I agree with you, Ted. Like I said, I don’t want any offer on the table for the PA, reservations shmeservations.
I want the PA delegitimized. I want both the leaders of Fatah and Hamas feeding fishes in the Med.
Walking a tightrope, Bibi is. Surely, he is aware of the issues we raise here. How could he not be?
Iran may well be the whole crux of the matter. Maybe to him, this transcends all else, and pressure regarding the same is forcing him to play fast and loose in ways that he otherwise would not.
It is the intent of the NWO globalists to destroy the U.S. G-d gives dreams and visions (Joel 2:28) and many people have had dreams and visions of the destruction of the U.S. but first prison camps, foreign invaders, mushroom clouds, bombs falling, planes strafing, etc. The great last days question by G-d is “What will you do with Israel?” Those getting the wrong answer G-d shall seek to destroy. The U.S. is Great Babylon of Jeremiah 50 & 51.
Rev. 13 speaks of two “beasts,” the first the whole world will worship and the second forces people to worship the first beast. The U.S. is that second beast. The RC Church system is that first beast that controls everything else and set up the NWO. The first beast stretches back to the paganism of the Tower of Babel and instituted a system of signs and symbols so they could communicate among themselves and the regular goyim will not understand. Among its many creations are Freemasonry and the Illuminati (globalism). The most popular definition of Freemasonry states that it is ‘a unique system of morality, veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols’. Why are all the leaders of the world Freemasons and why do they flash their hand signs to each other? G-d confused the languages at the Tower of Babel but these occultists are trying to subvert that confusion and say that they are in charge. Even BB is said to be a 33rd Degree Mason.
He’s got till January 20, 2013; that’s time enough
– if he dares.
Nor yours.
You need to be reminded, AE, that it was YOU — not myself — who raised the issue [above] of “moral right” — and that was WHY I said that moral considerations here are not a fit subject for discourse.
You speak only for yourself (and not very well, it seems): What you mean is that YOU don’t “give a crap” about Grief’s remarks — because they conflict with your own, tired, axe-grinding position in this matter. I daresay, in fact, that it would be more accurate to say that you HOPE “no one gives a crap” about what Grief has written.
What’s more (and for the record), Grief is hardly what I’d call ‘self-serving.’ He gave up a very lucrative legal practice to make aliyah [immigrate to Israel] and re-establish his practice in Jerusalem.
That would be most emphatically, then, yourself, Eagle — because notwithstanding all your TALK of being “logical,” you are easily one of the MOST emotional posters on this site. For illustration (and I could offer several others as well), somebody who — like yourself, as you’ve acknowledged — can’t see that electoral politics (even at its most optimal) ALWAYS comes down to the lesser of two evils. . . . very clearly doesn’t have a very hard head. It’s your own emotionalism that drives out reason in you, and with some regularity.
So now it only “said” something. Backing away from claims of “proving,” are you? — Smart.
You’re certainly on safer ground using “said” instead of “proved” — but then, the “everyone else” that you refer to can readily be assured of SAYING whatever it ruddy-well suits them to say. And saying isn’t ‘proving.’
Also in the world of international jurisprudence.
Quite so. I said, long ago — in fact, as soon as Sharon announced in 2004 his intentions to evacuate Gaza & No. Samaria the following year — that it would embolden the enemy. But this is a different issue altogether. It has no bearing on the law or on Jewish rights to the areas.
“Precedent” is a legal principle. What does or doesn’t happen “in the eyes” of a couple of terrorist organizations (or anybody else without standing in a court-of-law) has no legal bearing. And Legal Precedent as to them is utterly immaterial, let alone “possible.”
Moreover, while Precedent is an established principle at English Common Law, this is pertinent only as to domestic law (and only in those countries which inherit the Common Law system of jurisprudence). It is inapplicable in INTERNATIONAL Law — this for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that there are many countries whose legal systems do not recognize the principle of Precedent (or other Common Law precepts such as “sitting on [viz., failing to assert] one’s rights,” etc.) as having binding effects or implications.
That is an inaccurate description. His son’s injury kept him on the sideline long enough and he still has to deal with that and other family health issues. However, the problem, as everyone in opposition parties knows, is that the Likud led coalition is simply holding up and is nowhere near as fragile as previous government coalitions have been.
Most of Manhigut’s work is inter-parliamentary, so you won’t know or hear about it. In addition, there has been a major outreach effort in the last year+ to university students and young households.
Ugh. Of course not!
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You escaped from your padded cell again???
The problem created by Libyan anti-Semitism exemplifes the problem of the Jews living north of Jerusalem in what is called either the West bank by the local Arabs or Samaria by the local Jews. While driving in that area last week I realized that the much talked about and dreaded “settlements” or new colonies are simply small Jewish villages some of which, like Shiloh, have been there for over 2000 years. There is no reason why the Jewish villages and the Arab villages which are situated on alternate hills facing each other, cannot live together in peace and form a new country, except for the anti-semitism of the Palestinian Arabs and their supporters. Once the quartet and Bibi realize that the source of the Middle East conflict is same Muslim religious bigotry which affects the Christian Copts of Egypt, the Armenians of Turkey, and the Arab Christians in Lebanon and Bethlehem, they will be well under way to solving the problem.
As a 32nd Degree Scottish Rite Mason and a member of the Order of African Architects, I personally take offense at the remarks concerning Freemasonry.
In a dream world, anything is possible.
I KNOW no one gives a crap about Grief’s opinion because it does not feature anywhere in the discussion by those who count – the leaders of Israel and the US and UN.
It is not emotion but simple common sense that knows that dismantling the settlements in Gaza sent a message to anyone with more than half a brain that the same could be the fate in J&S, where everything is “negotiable” according to the Israeli government.
This is between Israel and the Palestinians not international jurisprudence.
Not true. It also applies to those with common sense.
To Georg: You know not what you worship.
See the article on the page at the Source above about the Babylonian origins of Freemasonry. The G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is NOT Lucifer/Satan appearing as the hermaphrodite horned Goat of Mendes, Baphomet! You cannot serve two masters. Do further research at the site above.
Catholicism is Mithracism which has the same Babylonian origins.
Absolutely….G-d gave the land of Israel to the Jewish people…every bit of land attest to that….as does the Bible…