I arranged for this interview. I have put together a team of people who are actively arranging interviews, debates and speeches on the subject of Jordan is Palestine with Mudar Zahran. He will be speaking at the Pritish Parliament as a guest of the Henry Jackson Society. I also expect that a debate will be arranged for Oxford or Cambridge with Zahran’s participation.
With all due respect, this is wonderful; but it is WISHFUL THINKING!
I would be an act of God – SERIOUSLY – if the Jordanian monarchy fell, Jordan declared itself the Palestinian state, and all the Muslims moved out of Judea and Samaria, opening up the area to peaceable Jewish settlement.
But, it is not realistic.
Any Muslim, or even Christian Arab, who would advocate such a plan would be killed sooner or later as a traitor to the “Arab nation.” The Christian Arabs may not hate Israel; but they know to keep their mouths shut. You know that.
For pete’s sake, read up on Ahmed Chalabi, a convicted felon, who was feted in Washington as the Leader for the New Iraq, before he turned on the USA.
Zahran could be the New Chalabi.
I am reminded of a joke which came out of Poland, during budget debates.
The Polish Legislature was having a hard time making the necessary cuts to their budget and were left with only two incredible options:
A) The politicians could honestly sit down, ignore their constituencies, do the responsible thing, and make the hard decisions necessary to balance the budget and bring stabiity to Poland
-or-
B) The Black Madonna of Czestochowa, the Virgin Mary of Poland, could descend from Heaven, and give Poland all the gold Poland needed to prosper.
One option was impossibly insane to believe and the other option was that the Virgin Mary could descend from Heaven, and give Poland all the gold Poland needed to prosper.
Unfortunately, I think you are offering a Jewish version of PLAN B FOR ISRAEL.
I hope you are right; and I am wrong — But I doubt it.
Jordan, is part of Yisrael, the Bigger Israel and more proper naming of the name we call it ourselves, an 64 young new Israel some wish to cut off more from… Our Tribal lands – others migrated into.
This Kingdom, Jordan, is only obsidian to its ‘former’ England which is whom should help us regain what is ours by our global heritage rights.
Please, also remember to share, the TRUTH about the Un Holy Relationship, leading to the Trust + Thanks, England had granted this new Arabian family of Kings…
No, Zahran is correct. The Brits demanded that the Zionists forego their claim to the 78% or else Britain would not allow the Mandate to be approved by the League of Nations. The Zionists were thus forced to agree and agree they did.
Yes, Zahran could get killed for what he is saying and doing. But he is not alone. He is working with all opposition forces to come up with a joint plan before moving against the king. They have agreed to uphold the peace agreement with Israel.
This man is the gust of fresh air we have been waiting decades for. There was another Michael in Canada. Michael Harris from CFRA in Ottawa. MICHAEL HARRIS WAS A LEFTIST PIECE OF GARBAGE.
He is still alive unfortunately but his show was so blatantly anti Israel and pro left that because of his low ratings his show was cancelled.
Michael Coren was once a guest on his show. Michael Coren is in a league all his own. We have very few like him up here.
What makes me angry is the fact that only Ted Belman is actively blogging this. Where is the so called Israeli hasbara, labeled a joke by Melanie Phillips, must depend on us to spread this message.
The Israeli govt is in many ways a pathetic entity.
Really pissed at Bibi, Peres and my favourite munchkin, the lover of Parisian 5 star hotels, Ehhhhuuuud Barak. Time for all three of those morally corrupt over paid things to drive by a grassy knoll.
I am Mudar Zahran, and thanks for those who watched my interview.
The idea I am presenting is not about an opportunity but rather about a threat.
In other words, aside form my ideas being good or bad, what we should be concerned with is: The Arab Spring will NOT stop in Jordan or over-pass Jordan. The king will fall sooner or later.
We all, Palestinians, Jews, Westerners and Moderate non-crazy Arabs should be ready for that day, we do not want the Muslim Brotherhood ruling Jordan, nor do we want tribal fights Somalia style across the borders…this is a wake up call for considering a Plan B and thinking about the second day after the king falls.
@ CuriousAmerican:
Curious…the video clip you suggested is pure Al-Jazeera rubbish. It present the “Palestinian right of return” as a right “recognized in international law.” This nonsense alone discredits the whole report.
You finally fully endorsed the Jordan option. THE ONLY option
When will you also endorse the the idea that ONLY a fully co-operating force Israei-Palestinian will bring the puppet king regime to it’s end.
Palestinians can not and never will win a war against Israel. They know it.
Israel can not and never will win a war against the Palestinians. We all know this.
BUT by joining forces we can and will bring normality to the middle east, and maybe later, once all the dust of hatred will be setteled, we will learn to even be friends…
“To your descendants I have given this land, from the Egyptian River as far as the great river, the Euphrates.”
Bereshit (Genesis) 15:18
The Jordanian monarchy won’t last long. The Palestinian majority will take over that desert state, and unable to create a viable economy there, they will turn to nationalism and militancy. Jordan will become a huge Gaza, rife with terrorist training camps. Jordanians will extend their influence to those Arabs whom Israel failed to expel in violation of the commandment, and they will become “a trap for you,” “a sore in your eye,” and “masters over you.” In order to establish security, Israel would have no choice but to extend toward the Euphrates, relocating the hostile Arabs to Iraq. Prompting Israel to fulfill the commandment.
I buy that they want to dump the little king and maybe they will succeed, that’s about as much credit I am prepared to give.
The Allies at the Potsdam Conference explicitly sanctioned “orderly population transfers” of about 12 million ethnic Germans from Poland and Czechoslovakia after WWII. The Treaty of Lausanne allowed Greece and Turkey to expel one another’s minorities a little earlier. The world did not care when the Arab countries pushed out their Jews. The world accepted the Jews running out the Palestinians in 1948, and generally supports the Jews in refusing to allow them back in. The world is sensible, and would tolerate the expulsion of Arabs from Judea and Israel. If done with the proper planning.
Realistic estimates put the Arab population of Judea, Samaria, and Gaza at 1.5 to 2.5 million. Close to 60 percent of Judea and Samaria is virtually empty, settled by a mere 1 percent of the total Arab population. Basic enforcement of Israel’s laws on Arabs, such as making them pay taxes, serve in the army, and razing their massive illegal construction, would make Israel unattractive to Arabs. Property buyouts at fair value would also induce some Arabs to leave Israel for cheaper neighboring countries. After Israel pushes some Palestinians out with economic policies and induces others to emigrate through compensations, the number left to be expelled won’t be huge.
No matter how we conclude the demographic Arab problem Israel will never be safe in this area surrounded by hundreds of millions of Muslims. Islam will never come to terms with a non Islamic sovereign nation in their midst. Any Arabs left under our sovereignty will always be a 5th column. There is no good reason why we should not expell them but not to Jordan. We don’t want a recreation of refugee camps.
I would forgo American aid for a million or so visas for the Arabs.
Saddam’s fall and the coming breakup of Iraq fits neatly with the biblical command to take possession of the whole of Biblical Israel. A potential war with Egypt will allow us to regain our Sinai back.
@ Ira Curtis:
Where have you been? Look at the top of Israpundit and you will see a box containing about 8 articles on the subject from the last half year. Some of them written by me, In fact there are a number of articles that I posted on the subject that I didn’t list.
The King will fall sooner or later…the Muslim Brotherhood are hated by the Palestinian majority for countless reasons, it is a window of opprtunity to solve the Palestinian problem by helping the Palestinians establish a secular state, and it is also a threat that the well-funded brotherhood can win vs. the pennyless fincially broke secular Palestinians, this requires a strategic decision.
Mudar Zahran
@ Salomon Benzimra:
@ CuriousAmerican:
Curious…the video clip you suggested is pure Al-Jazeera rubbish. It present the “Palestinian right of return” as a right “recognized in international law.” This nonsense alone discredits the whole report.
Rubbish or NOT, the Palestinians will NOT be satisfied with Jordan.
“Zahran says: (0:58) ‘The the Jews decided to agree to give 78% of the land to the Palestians’ …”
“NO! The Jews did NOT agree. Churchill arbitrarily made the cut, NOT THE JEWS.”
“No, Zahran is correct. The Brits demanded that the Zionists forego their claim to the 78% or else Britain would not allow the Mandate to be approved by the League of Nations. The Zionists were thus forced to agree and agree they did.”
That’s not quite the nature of the threat they made. Here’s how Shmuel Katz puts it:
“The Zionist leaders were stunned by the threatened lopping off of three quarters of the area of the projected Jewish National Home; its establishment had, after all, been Britain’s warrant for being granted the Mandate. But the British government countered with the proposal that, if the Zionists did not accept the situation, Britain would decline the Mandate altogether and thus withdraw her protection from the Jewish restoration.
“[Now, however, t]he Zionist leaders — struggling with the material problem of building a country out of a desert and restoring a people, largely impoverished, from the four corners of the world — were moreover inadequately equipped with political experience to judge the emptiness of the British threat. They did not feel strong enough to resist this blow to the integrity and security of the state-in-building and to their faith in the sancitity of compacts.” [Samuel Katz, Battlegound: Fact and Fantasy in Palestine (Bantam, NY, 1973; 3d Edition, Steimatzky, NY, 1985), p. 57]
In any case it’s clear that the Permanent Mandates Commission [PMC] — the League’s oversight organ, its watchdog, as it were — regarded the ethnic cleansing of the Jews from Transjordanian Palestine, and the ‘giving’ of it to Abdullah, as ILLEGAL.
The high-handed action of His Majesty’s Government came in for vehement criticism in SUCCESSIVE annual sessions of the PMC. The remarks of M. Rappard, for example (its Chairman), are blunt & plain: “If it was a question of general exclusion [of Jews from Trans-Jordan], the terms of the mandate have been broken.”
[Minutes of the Fifteenth Session, Held at Geneva from July 1st to 19th, 1929, C.305, M.105 (1929)]
Nor can the Zionists be said to have turned away from TransJordan even then.
At its September 1922 session, the Thirteenth Zionist World Congress passed a unanimous resolution:
“The Congress recognizes that Eastern and Western Eretz Israel constitute a historical, geographical and economic unit, and hopes that, in any future arrangement with regard to Trans-Jordan, due consideration would be taken with regard to aspirations of Jewish settlement there.”
[Protokolle der Verhandlungen de Zionisten Kongressen, Vol. 13 (The Zionist Organization, London, 1922), p. 169; cited in Isaiah Friedman, “How Trans-Jordan was severed from the territory of the Jewish National Home,” The Journal of Israeli History, Vol. 27, No. 1, Mar 08, p. 78 {this latter article constituting an abbreviated version of a chapter from Professor Friedman’s forthcoming book, Miscalculations by the British and the Rise of Moslem Nationalism (Volume Two of Palestine: A Twice Promised Land?)} ]
‘Syria is collapsing!’????? We [all the pundits . private and governmental] have been saying this now for at least 9 months and as I see it Assad is doing nicely thank you
As and when he does go, and only then IMO is the Jordanian monarchy in possible danger
Israel needs Jordan as it is at the present time
“Zahran says: (0:58) ‘The the Jews decided to agree to give 78% of the land to the Palestians’…”
“NO! The Jews did NOT agree. Churchill arbitrarily made the cut, NOT THE JEWS.”
“No, Zahran is correct. The Brits demanded that the Zionists forego their claim to the 78% or else Britain would not allow the Mandate to be approved by the League of Nations. The Zionists were thus forced to agree and agree they did.”
That’s not quite the nature of the threat they made. Here’s how Shmuel Katz puts it:
“The Zionist leaders were stunned by the threatened lopping off of three quarters of the area of the projected Jewish National Home; its establishment had, after all, been Britain’s warrant for being granted the Mandate. But the British government countered with the proposal that, if the Zionists did not accept the situation, Britain would decline the Mandate altogether and thus withdraw her protection from the Jewish restoration.
“[Now, however, t]he Zionist leaders — struggling with the material problem of building a country out of a desert and restoring a people, largely impoverished, from the four corners of the world — were moreover inadequately equipped with political experience to judge the emptiness of the British threat. They did not feel strong enough to resist this blow to the integrity and security of the state-in-building and to their faith in the sancitity of compacts.” [Samuel Katz, Battlegound: Fact and Fantasy in Palestine (Bantam, NY, 1973; 3d Edition, Steimatzky, NY, 1985), p. 57]
In any case it’s clear that the Permanent Mandates Commission [PMC] — the League’s oversight organ, its watchdog, as it were — regarded the ethnic cleansing of the Jews from Transjordanian Palestine, and the ‘giving’ of it to Abdullah, as ILLEGAL.
The high-handed action of His Majesty’s Government came in for vehement criticism in SUCCESSIVE annual sessions of the PMC. The remarks of M. Rappard, for example (its Chairman), are blunt & plain: “If it was a question of general exclusion [of Jews from Trans-Jordan], the terms of the mandate have been broken.”
[Minutes of the Fifteenth Session, Held at Geneva from July 1st to 19th, 1929, C.305, M.105 (1929)]
Nor can the Zionists be said to have turned away from TransJordan even then.
At its September 1922 session, the Thirteenth Zionist World Congress passed a unanimous resolution:
“The Congress recognizes that Eastern and Western Eretz Israel constitute a historical, geographical and economic unit, and hopes that, in any future arrangement with regard to Trans-Jordan, due consideration would be taken with regard to aspirations of Jewish settlement there.”
[cited in Isaiah Friedman, “How Trans-Jordan was severed from the territory of the Jewish National Home,” The Journal of Israeli History, Vol. 27, No. 1, Mar 08, p. 78 {this latter article constituting an abbreviated version of a chapter from Professor Friedman’s forthcoming book, Miscalculations by the British and the Rise of Moslem Nationalism (Volume Two of Palestine: A Twice Promised Land?)}]
The Palestinian majority will take over that desert state, and unable to create a viable economy there, they will turn to nationalism and militancy
You are prtialy right. The puppet king lives on borrwed time. The rest is your basic mistake that appears throughout all your postings.
What the Palestinians will do after the boy king is gone, (B”H)depends on us. For the moment the blind Bibi government is supporting the wrong side. If they will keep on doing this, I will unfortunately have to agree with you.Embracing the king will only result in your black prophecy. Supporting them will bring them to a point where the loss will be all theirs. The biggest problem Jordan has is the same Israel has, WATER. Water reserves in jordan are relatively smaller per unit surface than there are in Israel. Jordan or better say the new Palestine needs us to solve this problem.
We can become Jordan’s major supplier for desalinated water at a reasonable price. Or otherwise they will have to, and can with enough petro-dollars desalinate golf of Aquba sea water and build a pipeline of 1500 to 2500km to distribute water for agriculture and industrial uses in northern,western and central Jordan. They will need about 20 billion qubic meters of water just to supply their present demand and @0.20 US dollars/m3 (VERY VERY cheap…) you already making a $2B Annual business that will lead to 10 times this in other business mainly technologies, industrial and agricultural development and a big market for us and for them, maybe even a road to Europe through the medeternian sea.
Any war we declare on them and in which even if we win, will bring us zero advantage. Suppose we DO conquer Jordan, Do you really believe the world will let us have it? (Sinai 1956, and 1967) Or do you propose to fight against the whole civilized world? You know all this We know all this, and the Palestininans know this.
Your doctrene is prophecy for destruction. We have this chance now. Supply them with arms, technologies, training, wipe out the puppet, help them create the new palestine ’cause Jordan IS Palestine. And if all fails we will be where we are now. But we maybe saved much more than one Jewish sole. But if it scceeds we are on track to save Israel and our son’s future.
Actually visas from [South] America would be an option.
Nice thought, but you will have to bring something to the table.
Like money!
$100,000 dollars per individual might persuade Arabs to leave and [South] American nations to accept them.
$100,000 per family is NOT enough. The amount has to be large enough to overcome Arab “honor” and South American “fear.”
I know you do not want to pay.
My way is best and cheaper. Unless you Missionaries want to fund them?…When my comment comes out of moderation???? I will link you to it, when and if it shows up.
You are prtialy right. The puppet king lives on borrwed time. The rest is your basic mistake that appears throughout all your postings.
What the Palestinians will do after the boy king is gone, (B”H)depends on us. For the moment the blind Bibi government is supporting the wrong side. If they will keep on doing this, I will unfortunately have to agree with you.Embracing the king will only result in your black prophecy.
As a matter of fact very little depends on us. What you call ‘black prophesy’ which leads to Greater Israel and finally Peace, you call ‘black prophesy’? I don’t see any possibility of peace until we fulfill our national purpose.
My comment from a real politic POV is rational. Jordan is a failed state and under the Palis and influx of expected Palis it will collapse totally. If they were a normal people with a normal progressive culture some of your points might have some validity. Have you ever been to Jordan? I have several times…. Forget it. Without the King they would become another Gaza. Even if 90% of Jordanians and or Palestinians were Israel accepting the 10% who don’t if radicalized and militant would ensure no peace and normal relations could last. Outside of the regional conflict context the world will ignore Jordan and I expect so will the money from donors who support them today dry up. The Palis hate the Bedouin and the Bedouin hate the Palis. The army and security services of Jordan are Bedouin. The educated class are Palis.
Jordan under the regime of the Hashemites have provided Israel with with a stable and quiet eastern border. Why should we want to supplant them with an unstable Pali regime who hates our guts and want to replace us. They could align with Iran or any anti-Israel power and there would be nothing we could do about it. The have a small but well trained modern army today but under the Palis they could align with Russia China or example and build up their forces to a point where they become an existential threat. They will be also open for a takeover by what ever regime materializes in Iraq and Syria. Point is there are many scenarios and none are good for us.
My comment above is messianic I admit but we seem to be trending in that direction, I am admittedly speculating, and I am neither a prophet or the son of a prophet.
@ yamit82:
A constructive idea- how about shipping 3.5 mil Arabs to Michigan where many of their compatriots live. We can also bill the Americans for the transportation charges. The US wouldn’t dare complain. Then Israel can simply move into the territories and annex. We can also force the Americans to recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s eternal capital, in accordance with Hashem’s wishes. That is elementary.
The Palestinians in Jordan, Lebanon, etc, i.e. the Palestinians not living in Irsael are busy hating their Arab brothers who have made them suffer, a proof: Palestinians in Lebanon are heavily-armed, how come they are not joining Hezbaollah in fighting Israel?
The Palestinian state in Jordan, if it ever comes to be, will heavilty dependent on Israel and the US as is Jordan today, and will not find any suppprt for itself from Iran or elsewhere, the only rich potential supporter is Saudi Arabia, Iran sworn enemy, and thus Jordan under any regime will be friendly to Israel …except if the Muslim Brotherhood takes over, they are hated by the Palestinians but they are finaically strong, support must be made avilable to secular Palestinians in Jordan as a Plan B option. If this was up to me, Mudar Zahran, I would make the king stay and let him change his ways a little, nonetheless, does anyone have the guarntee that he will survive the Arab Spring, and if he does not, what will Israel, US and the secular Palestinians do the next day over?
Think.
Mudar Zahran
@ dbdent:
you said: “Israel needs Jordan as it is at the present time” I could not agree more! Nonetheless, do you have the slightest of guarantees Jordan will remain”as is where is at the present time”…would someone answer my question please, if the king of Jordan falls say by the end of 2013, does anyone has a plan on what to do next?!
Mudar Zahran
@ CuriousAmerican:
My question, when the king falls, if he falls, and he most-likely will, does anyone have a plan B, a back up plan…as we speak today, none seem to have it.
Mudar Zharan
“I see your distinction and wonder if it amounts to the same thing.”
It may amount to the same thing; that did occur to me as I was writing.
I think what I found most striking, though, was the political naivete of the Zionists, to which Katz alludes (in the excerpt I offerred above); seems to me it’s perhaps more significant than we — looking back at it from our perch, 92 yrs later — are inclined to suppose.
“If Britain took away their protection, would there still be a mandate or a war over who will dominate?”
On the other hand, what if the political sophistication of the Zionists had been such as give them the justifiable confidence to “wade into the water,” as it were, rather than shrinking back under HMG’s threat (as, in the event, they did)?
— and if instead, they had countered that threat with a proposal to ask the Permanent Mandates Commission to withdraw the Mandate Award from the UK — for having exceeded its jurisdictional authority as a Mandatory — and proposed, in its place, that PMC re-award the Mandate to, say, France? — (!!!)I’m quite certain the PMC had the authority to do that.
TBS, it would’ve taken sand, moxie, kishkes, nerve. . . . balls. But if the Zionists of that era had truly understood the lay of the land (politically speaking), they’d have known that “two can play the same game” that HMG was playing with them.
I know, I know: “hindsight is always 20/20″. . . . and “counter-factual history” can be an excruciatingly frustrating indulgence if you do too much of it — but once in a while, it can be instructive.
“I am now reading Katz’s book on Jabotinsky.”
Glad you got hold of it.
Joseph Schechtman’s is quite good too — and Katz had a hand in its prep also (he’s mentioned in the acknowledgments as having read the text, & offerred suggestions, etc). It was first published (in 3 vols) during the late 50′s, but was reprinted unabridged in a two-vol format about 20 yrs ago. Reads very well in 2012.
@ Ted Belman:
I arranged for this interview. I have put together a team of people who are actively arranging interviews, debates and speeches on the subject of Jordan is Palestine with Mudar Zahran. He will be speaking at the Pritish Parliament as a guest of the Henry Jackson Society. I also expect that a debate will be arranged for Oxford or Cambridge with Zahran’s participation.
You have all done yourselves proud with your comments, both for and against. Like the rabbi in Fiddler opn the Roof said,you’re right and you are right. At the moment the King is doing a very good job keeping our eastern border quiet. We certainly shouldn’t support his removal. Its too dangerous for us. At the same time, I am not so sure he can withstand the pressures he is under. So far he hasn’t made any concessions worth talking about. But he is in a difficult position. His precarious financial position requires him to do something and whatever he does alienates somebody. The Palestinians want equal citizenship but the Bedouin oppose it. Discussions are taking place for the Bedouin to accept these Palestinian demands.
Let us suppose that the Palestinians form the next government. Many suggest that Arabs aren’t prepared for either a secular or a democratic government and many examples are given. I don’t see much evidence that Arabs care about democracy. They want a strong leader that they call their own. Such a leader in Jordan can choose to be friends with Israel or enemies with it. For the Jordanians to avoid being taken over by the Islamists, they have no alternative to being friends with us. Besides, they have suffered economically for so long that they will value a better economy in which they are treated without discrimination.
@ YISRAEL:
Jordan, is part of Yisrael, the Bigger Israel and more proper naming of the name we call it ourselves, an 64 young new Israel some wish to cut off more from… Our Tribal lands – others migrated into.
Before you try to incorporate Jordan (creating another demographic nightmare) first please get a Jewish clear majority in Judea and Samaria.
@ CuriousAmerican: So, what is the solution…the king is most likely to fall….he aint stronger than Mubarak…actually not even close…what is Plan B? Or should we sit and watch the Muslim Brotherhood taking over?
Any thoughts sir?
Mjudar
@ Mudar Zahran:
Mudar,Tell me please:
Do you believe the Palestinians will be willing co-operate with Israel to take Jordan by force? and in return recognize Israel right to exist with today’s borders more or less including J+S and Jerusalem as it’s undisputed Capital?
If they will, and Israel will be an important factor in helping you to achieve this, and you will have all of todays Jordan as Palestine, what do you think will the future bring? will we be able to live normal lives one besides the other?
Do you believe that the rest of the Arab world will accept such an unholy pact? Do you believe they will let it happen?
If you believe this is all feasible than here is your plan “B”. Start working on it. Don’t listen to people like Yamit, they are a small minority, trigger happy and angels of destruction.Don’t listen to people like “Shalom Achshav” or the Israeli left, They are all day drimmers. non of those has a viable solution.
If your answer is no, than we are all bound to live on our swords forever.
Please answer clearly without all the diplomatic bs.
If you can not answer, than you are just like all of us, we do not have a solution.
Ira.
I arranged for this interview. I have put together a team of people who are actively arranging interviews, debates and speeches on the subject of Jordan is Palestine with Mudar Zahran. He will be speaking at the Pritish Parliament as a guest of the Henry Jackson Society. I also expect that a debate will be arranged for Oxford or Cambridge with Zahran’s participation.
With all due respect, this is wonderful; but it is WISHFUL THINKING!
I would be an act of God – SERIOUSLY – if the Jordanian monarchy fell, Jordan declared itself the Palestinian state, and all the Muslims moved out of Judea and Samaria, opening up the area to peaceable Jewish settlement.
But, it is not realistic.
Any Muslim, or even Christian Arab, who would advocate such a plan would be killed sooner or later as a traitor to the “Arab nation.” The Christian Arabs may not hate Israel; but they know to keep their mouths shut. You know that.
For pete’s sake, read up on Ahmed Chalabi, a convicted felon, who was feted in Washington as the Leader for the New Iraq, before he turned on the USA.
Zahran could be the New Chalabi.
I am reminded of a joke which came out of Poland, during budget debates.
The Polish Legislature was having a hard time making the necessary cuts to their budget and were left with only two incredible options:
A) The politicians could honestly sit down, ignore their constituencies, do the responsible thing, and make the hard decisions necessary to balance the budget and bring stabiity to Poland
-or-
B) The Black Madonna of Czestochowa, the Virgin Mary of Poland, could descend from Heaven, and give Poland all the gold Poland needed to prosper.
One option was impossibly insane to believe and the other option was that the Virgin Mary could descend from Heaven, and give Poland all the gold Poland needed to prosper.
Unfortunately, I think you are offering a Jewish version of PLAN B FOR ISRAEL.
I hope you are right; and I am wrong — But I doubt it.
NO! The Jews did NOT agree. Churchill arbitrarily made the cut, NOT THE JEWS.
Shlomo Ben Yosef‘s last words before being hung by the British in 1938 were, “It is good to die for the Jewish State on both sides of the Jordan.”
Now maybe the division by Churchill was or was not a good idea, but the Jews were NOT responsible for it and they did NOT agree to it.
Zahran does not know his own history.
What do you do with this next video?
Palestinians object to ‘alternative homeland’ plan – 24 Aug 09
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZJa4fTlXsM
Zahran may be sincere, but he is self-deluded.
Jordan, is part of Yisrael, the Bigger Israel and more proper naming of the name we call it ourselves, an 64 young new Israel some wish to cut off more from… Our Tribal lands – others migrated into.
This Kingdom, Jordan, is only obsidian to its ‘former’ England which is whom should help us regain what is ours by our global heritage rights.
Please, also remember to share, the TRUTH about the Un Holy Relationship, leading to the Trust + Thanks, England had granted this new Arabian family of Kings…
No, Zahran is correct. The Brits demanded that the Zionists forego their claim to the 78% or else Britain would not allow the Mandate to be approved by the League of Nations. The Zionists were thus forced to agree and agree they did.
Yes, Zahran could get killed for what he is saying and doing. But he is not alone. He is working with all opposition forces to come up with a joint plan before moving against the king. They have agreed to uphold the peace agreement with Israel.
This man is the gust of fresh air we have been waiting decades for. There was another Michael in Canada. Michael Harris from CFRA in Ottawa. MICHAEL HARRIS WAS A LEFTIST PIECE OF GARBAGE.
He is still alive unfortunately but his show was so blatantly anti Israel and pro left that because of his low ratings his show was cancelled.
Michael Coren was once a guest on his show. Michael Coren is in a league all his own. We have very few like him up here.
What makes me angry is the fact that only Ted Belman is actively blogging this. Where is the so called Israeli hasbara, labeled a joke by Melanie Phillips, must depend on us to spread this message.
The Israeli govt is in many ways a pathetic entity.
Really pissed at Bibi, Peres and my favourite munchkin, the lover of Parisian 5 star hotels, Ehhhhuuuud Barak. Time for all three of those morally corrupt over paid things to drive by a grassy knoll.
I am Mudar Zahran, and thanks for those who watched my interview.
The idea I am presenting is not about an opportunity but rather about a threat.
In other words, aside form my ideas being good or bad, what we should be concerned with is: The Arab Spring will NOT stop in Jordan or over-pass Jordan. The king will fall sooner or later.
We all, Palestinians, Jews, Westerners and Moderate non-crazy Arabs should be ready for that day, we do not want the Muslim Brotherhood ruling Jordan, nor do we want tribal fights Somalia style across the borders…this is a wake up call for considering a Plan B and thinking about the second day after the king falls.
@ James B – Montreal:
@ CuriousAmerican:
Curious…the video clip you suggested is pure Al-Jazeera rubbish. It present the “Palestinian right of return” as a right “recognized in international law.” This nonsense alone discredits the whole report.
You finally fully endorsed the Jordan option. THE ONLY option
When will you also endorse the the idea that ONLY a fully co-operating force Israei-Palestinian will bring the puppet king regime to it’s end.
Palestinians can not and never will win a war against Israel. They know it.
Israel can not and never will win a war against the Palestinians. We all know this.
BUT by joining forces we can and will bring normality to the middle east, and maybe later, once all the dust of hatred will be setteled, we will learn to even be friends…
@ Ted Belman:
From the Nile to the Euphrates/Eretz Israel HaShlema
The Jordanian monarchy won’t last long. The Palestinian majority will take over that desert state, and unable to create a viable economy there, they will turn to nationalism and militancy. Jordan will become a huge Gaza, rife with terrorist training camps. Jordanians will extend their influence to those Arabs whom Israel failed to expel in violation of the commandment, and they will become “a trap for you,” “a sore in your eye,” and “masters over you.” In order to establish security, Israel would have no choice but to extend toward the Euphrates, relocating the hostile Arabs to Iraq. Prompting Israel to fulfill the commandment.
@ Ira Curtis:
@ YISRAEL:
Eretz Israel HaShlema
@ CuriousAmerican
I buy that they want to dump the little king and maybe they will succeed, that’s about as much credit I am prepared to give.
The Allies at the Potsdam Conference explicitly sanctioned “orderly population transfers” of about 12 million ethnic Germans from Poland and Czechoslovakia after WWII. The Treaty of Lausanne allowed Greece and Turkey to expel one another’s minorities a little earlier. The world did not care when the Arab countries pushed out their Jews. The world accepted the Jews running out the Palestinians in 1948, and generally supports the Jews in refusing to allow them back in. The world is sensible, and would tolerate the expulsion of Arabs from Judea and Israel. If done with the proper planning.
Realistic estimates put the Arab population of Judea, Samaria, and Gaza at 1.5 to 2.5 million. Close to 60 percent of Judea and Samaria is virtually empty, settled by a mere 1 percent of the total Arab population. Basic enforcement of Israel’s laws on Arabs, such as making them pay taxes, serve in the army, and razing their massive illegal construction, would make Israel unattractive to Arabs. Property buyouts at fair value would also induce some Arabs to leave Israel for cheaper neighboring countries. After Israel pushes some Palestinians out with economic policies and induces others to emigrate through compensations, the number left to be expelled won’t be huge.
No matter how we conclude the demographic Arab problem Israel will never be safe in this area surrounded by hundreds of millions of Muslims. Islam will never come to terms with a non Islamic sovereign nation in their midst. Any Arabs left under our sovereignty will always be a 5th column. There is no good reason why we should not expell them but not to Jordan. We don’t want a recreation of refugee camps.
I would forgo American aid for a million or so visas for the Arabs.
@ yamit82:
Saddam’s fall and the coming breakup of Iraq fits neatly with the biblical command to take possession of the whole of Biblical Israel. A potential war with Egypt will allow us to regain our Sinai back.
http://www.israpundit.com/archives/45469#more-45469
@ Ira Curtis:
Where have you been? Look at the top of Israpundit and you will see a box containing about 8 articles on the subject from the last half year. Some of them written by me, In fact there are a number of articles that I posted on the subject that I didn’t list.
The King will fall sooner or later…the Muslim Brotherhood are hated by the Palestinian majority for countless reasons, it is a window of opprtunity to solve the Palestinian problem by helping the Palestinians establish a secular state, and it is also a threat that the well-funded brotherhood can win vs. the pennyless fincially broke secular Palestinians, this requires a strategic decision.
Mudar Zahran
Actually visas from [South] America would be an option.
Nice thought, but you will have to bring something to the table.
Like money!
$100,000 dollars per individual might persuade Arabs to leave and [South] American nations to accept them.
$100,000 per family is NOT enough. The amount has to be large enough to overcome Arab “honor” and South American “fear.”
I know you do not want to pay.
Name me one stable secular Arab state?
Syria is collapsing.
Lebanon is falling apart as the Christians flee.
You will end up with a radicalized Jordanian state more dangerous to you than the present circumstance.
Rubbish or NOT, the Palestinians will NOT be satisfied with Jordan.
@ Ted Belman:
That’s not quite the nature of the threat they made. Here’s how Shmuel Katz puts it:
“The Zionist leaders were stunned by the threatened lopping off of three quarters of the area of the projected Jewish National Home; its establishment had, after all, been Britain’s warrant for being granted the Mandate. But the British government countered with the proposal that, if the Zionists did not accept the situation, Britain would decline the Mandate altogether and thus withdraw her protection from the Jewish restoration.
“[Now, however, t]he Zionist leaders — struggling with the material problem of building a country out of a desert and restoring a people, largely impoverished, from the four corners of the world — were moreover inadequately equipped with political experience to judge the emptiness of the British threat. They did not feel strong enough to resist this blow to the integrity and security of the state-in-building and to their faith in the sancitity of compacts.” [Samuel Katz, Battlegound: Fact and Fantasy in Palestine (Bantam, NY, 1973; 3d Edition, Steimatzky, NY, 1985), p. 57]
In any case it’s clear that the Permanent Mandates Commission [PMC] — the League’s oversight organ, its watchdog, as it were — regarded the ethnic cleansing of the Jews from Transjordanian Palestine, and the ‘giving’ of it to Abdullah, as ILLEGAL.
The high-handed action of His Majesty’s Government came in for vehement criticism in SUCCESSIVE annual sessions of the PMC. The remarks of M. Rappard, for example (its Chairman), are blunt & plain: “If it was a question of general exclusion [of Jews from Trans-Jordan], the terms of the mandate have been broken.”
[Minutes of the Fifteenth Session, Held at Geneva from July 1st to 19th, 1929, C.305, M.105 (1929)]
Nor can the Zionists be said to have turned away from TransJordan even then.
At its September 1922 session, the Thirteenth Zionist World Congress passed a unanimous resolution:
“The Congress recognizes that Eastern and Western Eretz Israel constitute a historical, geographical and economic unit, and hopes that, in any future arrangement with regard to Trans-Jordan, due consideration would be taken with regard to aspirations of Jewish settlement there.”
[Protokolle der Verhandlungen de Zionisten Kongressen, Vol. 13 (The Zionist Organization, London, 1922), p. 169; cited in Isaiah Friedman, “How Trans-Jordan was severed from the territory of the Jewish National Home,” The Journal of Israeli History, Vol. 27, No. 1, Mar 08, p. 78 {this latter article constituting an abbreviated version of a chapter from Professor Friedman’s forthcoming book, Miscalculations by the British and the Rise of Moslem Nationalism (Volume Two of Palestine: A Twice Promised Land?)} ]
‘Syria is collapsing!’????? We [all the pundits . private and governmental] have been saying this now for at least 9 months and as I see it Assad is doing nicely thank you
As and when he does go, and only then IMO is the Jordanian monarchy in possible danger
Israel needs Jordan as it is at the present time
@ Ted Belman:
That’s not quite the nature of the threat they made. Here’s how Shmuel Katz puts it:
@ Ted Belman:
In any case it’s clear that the Permanent Mandates Commission [PMC] — the League’s oversight organ, its watchdog, as it were — regarded the ethnic cleansing of the Jews from Transjordanian Palestine, and the ‘giving’ of it to Abdullah, as ILLEGAL.
The high-handed action of His Majesty’s Government came in for vehement criticism in SUCCESSIVE annual sessions of the PMC. The remarks of M. Rappard, for example (its Chairman), are blunt & plain: “If it was a question of general exclusion [of Jews from Trans-Jordan], the terms of the mandate have been broken.”
[Minutes of the Fifteenth Session, Held at Geneva from July 1st to 19th, 1929, C.305, M.105 (1929)]
Nor can the Zionists be said to have turned away from TransJordan even then.
At its September 1922 session, the Thirteenth Zionist World Congress passed a unanimous resolution:
“The Congress recognizes that Eastern and Western Eretz Israel constitute a historical, geographical and economic unit, and hopes that, in any future arrangement with regard to Trans-Jordan, due consideration would be taken with regard to aspirations of Jewish settlement there.”
[cited in Isaiah Friedman, “How Trans-Jordan was severed from the territory of the Jewish National Home,” The Journal of Israeli History, Vol. 27, No. 1, Mar 08, p. 78 {this latter article constituting an abbreviated version of a chapter from Professor Friedman’s forthcoming book, Miscalculations by the British and the Rise of Moslem Nationalism (Volume Two of Palestine: A Twice Promised Land?)}]
@ dweller:
I just boiled it down, but too roughly. I see your distinction and wonder if it amounts to the same thing.
If Britain took away their protection, would there still be a mandate or a war over who will dominate.
I am now reading Katz’s book on Jabotinsky
<@ yamit82:
yamit82 Said:
You are prtialy right. The puppet king lives on borrwed time. The rest is your basic mistake that appears throughout all your postings.
What the Palestinians will do after the boy king is gone, (B”H)depends on us. For the moment the blind Bibi government is supporting the wrong side. If they will keep on doing this, I will unfortunately have to agree with you.Embracing the king will only result in your black prophecy. Supporting them will bring them to a point where the loss will be all theirs. The biggest problem Jordan has is the same Israel has, WATER. Water reserves in jordan are relatively smaller per unit surface than there are in Israel. Jordan or better say the new Palestine needs us to solve this problem.
We can become Jordan’s major supplier for desalinated water at a reasonable price. Or otherwise they will have to, and can with enough petro-dollars desalinate golf of Aquba sea water and build a pipeline of 1500 to 2500km to distribute water for agriculture and industrial uses in northern,western and central Jordan. They will need about 20 billion qubic meters of water just to supply their present demand and @0.20 US dollars/m3 (VERY VERY cheap…) you already making a $2B Annual business that will lead to 10 times this in other business mainly technologies, industrial and agricultural development and a big market for us and for them, maybe even a road to Europe through the medeternian sea.
Any war we declare on them and in which even if we win, will bring us zero advantage. Suppose we DO conquer Jordan, Do you really believe the world will let us have it? (Sinai 1956, and 1967) Or do you propose to fight against the whole civilized world? You know all this We know all this, and the Palestininans know this.
Your doctrene is prophecy for destruction. We have this chance now. Supply them with arms, technologies, training, wipe out the puppet, help them create the new palestine ’cause Jordan IS Palestine. And if all fails we will be where we are now. But we maybe saved much more than one Jewish sole. But if it scceeds we are on track to save Israel and our son’s future.
@ CuriousAmerican:
My way is best and cheaper. Unless you Missionaries want to fund them?…When my comment comes out of moderation???? I will link you to it, when and if it shows up.
@ Ira Curtis:
As a matter of fact very little depends on us. What you call ‘black prophesy’ which leads to Greater Israel and finally Peace, you call ‘black prophesy’? I don’t see any possibility of peace until we fulfill our national purpose.
My comment from a real politic POV is rational. Jordan is a failed state and under the Palis and influx of expected Palis it will collapse totally. If they were a normal people with a normal progressive culture some of your points might have some validity. Have you ever been to Jordan? I have several times…. Forget it. Without the King they would become another Gaza. Even if 90% of Jordanians and or Palestinians were Israel accepting the 10% who don’t if radicalized and militant would ensure no peace and normal relations could last. Outside of the regional conflict context the world will ignore Jordan and I expect so will the money from donors who support them today dry up. The Palis hate the Bedouin and the Bedouin hate the Palis. The army and security services of Jordan are Bedouin. The educated class are Palis.
Jordan under the regime of the Hashemites have provided Israel with with a stable and quiet eastern border. Why should we want to supplant them with an unstable Pali regime who hates our guts and want to replace us. They could align with Iran or any anti-Israel power and there would be nothing we could do about it. The have a small but well trained modern army today but under the Palis they could align with Russia China or example and build up their forces to a point where they become an existential threat. They will be also open for a takeover by what ever regime materializes in Iraq and Syria. Point is there are many scenarios and none are good for us.
My comment above is messianic I admit but we seem to be trending in that direction, I am admittedly speculating, and I am neither a prophet or the son of a prophet.
@ yamit82:
A constructive idea- how about shipping 3.5 mil Arabs to Michigan where many of their compatriots live. We can also bill the Americans for the transportation charges. The US wouldn’t dare complain. Then Israel can simply move into the territories and annex. We can also force the Americans to recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s eternal capital, in accordance with Hashem’s wishes. That is elementary.
The Palestinians in Jordan, Lebanon, etc, i.e. the Palestinians not living in Irsael are busy hating their Arab brothers who have made them suffer, a proof: Palestinians in Lebanon are heavily-armed, how come they are not joining Hezbaollah in fighting Israel?
The Palestinian state in Jordan, if it ever comes to be, will heavilty dependent on Israel and the US as is Jordan today, and will not find any suppprt for itself from Iran or elsewhere, the only rich potential supporter is Saudi Arabia, Iran sworn enemy, and thus Jordan under any regime will be friendly to Israel …except if the Muslim Brotherhood takes over, they are hated by the Palestinians but they are finaically strong, support must be made avilable to secular Palestinians in Jordan as a Plan B option. If this was up to me, Mudar Zahran, I would make the king stay and let him change his ways a little, nonetheless, does anyone have the guarntee that he will survive the Arab Spring, and if he does not, what will Israel, US and the secular Palestinians do the next day over?
Think.
Mudar Zahran
@ dbdent:
you said: “Israel needs Jordan as it is at the present time” I could not agree more! Nonetheless, do you have the slightest of guarantees Jordan will remain”as is where is at the present time”…would someone answer my question please, if the king of Jordan falls say by the end of 2013, does anyone has a plan on what to do next?!
Mudar Zahran
@ CuriousAmerican:
My question, when the king falls, if he falls, and he most-likely will, does anyone have a plan B, a back up plan…as we speak today, none seem to have it.
Mudar Zharan
@ Ted Belman:
It may amount to the same thing; that did occur to me as I was writing.
I think what I found most striking, though, was the political naivete of the Zionists, to which Katz alludes (in the excerpt I offerred above); seems to me it’s perhaps more significant than we — looking back at it from our perch, 92 yrs later — are inclined to suppose.
On the other hand, what if the political sophistication of the Zionists had been such as give them the justifiable confidence to “wade into the water,” as it were, rather than shrinking back under HMG’s threat (as, in the event, they did)?
— and if instead, they had countered that threat with a proposal to ask the Permanent Mandates Commission to withdraw the Mandate Award from the UK — for having exceeded its jurisdictional authority as a Mandatory — and proposed, in its place, that PMC re-award the Mandate to, say, France? — (!!!) I’m quite certain the PMC had the authority to do that.
TBS, it would’ve taken sand, moxie, kishkes, nerve. . . . balls. But if the Zionists of that era had truly understood the lay of the land (politically speaking), they’d have known that “two can play the same game” that HMG was playing with them.
I know, I know: “hindsight is always 20/20″. . . . and “counter-factual history” can be an excruciatingly frustrating indulgence if you do too much of it — but once in a while, it can be instructive.
Glad you got hold of it.
Joseph Schechtman’s is quite good too — and Katz had a hand in its prep also (he’s mentioned in the acknowledgments as having read the text, & offerred suggestions, etc). It was first published (in 3 vols) during the late 50′s, but was reprinted unabridged in a two-vol format about 20 yrs ago. Reads very well in 2012.
Jay Shapiro on Israel National Radio trashes the Jordan is Palestine theory
Audio: King Abdullah Gambling over Jordan’s Future
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/News.aspx/3767
For all your good intentions, it won’t work. All it will produce is a radicalized Jordan. A Jordanian Spring will quickly become an Amman winter.
You have all done yourselves proud with your comments, both for and against. Like the rabbi in Fiddler opn the Roof said,you’re right and you are right. At the moment the King is doing a very good job keeping our eastern border quiet. We certainly shouldn’t support his removal. Its too dangerous for us. At the same time, I am not so sure he can withstand the pressures he is under. So far he hasn’t made any concessions worth talking about. But he is in a difficult position. His precarious financial position requires him to do something and whatever he does alienates somebody. The Palestinians want equal citizenship but the Bedouin oppose it. Discussions are taking place for the Bedouin to accept these Palestinian demands.
Let us suppose that the Palestinians form the next government. Many suggest that Arabs aren’t prepared for either a secular or a democratic government and many examples are given. I don’t see much evidence that Arabs care about democracy. They want a strong leader that they call their own. Such a leader in Jordan can choose to be friends with Israel or enemies with it. For the Jordanians to avoid being taken over by the Islamists, they have no alternative to being friends with us. Besides, they have suffered economically for so long that they will value a better economy in which they are treated without discrimination.
Interesting . Zahrah has merit. Stumbling blocks are people like Hamas, Hezbollah and Fatah. None of which wnat a peacefull solution.
Before you try to incorporate Jordan (creating another demographic nightmare) first please get a Jewish clear majority in Judea and Samaria.
@ CuriousAmerican: So, what is the solution…the king is most likely to fall….he aint stronger than Mubarak…actually not even close…what is Plan B? Or should we sit and watch the Muslim Brotherhood taking over?
Any thoughts sir?
Mjudar
@ Mudar Zahran:
Mudar,Tell me please:
Do you believe the Palestinians will be willing co-operate with Israel to take Jordan by force? and in return recognize Israel right to exist with today’s borders more or less including J+S and Jerusalem as it’s undisputed Capital?
If they will, and Israel will be an important factor in helping you to achieve this, and you will have all of todays Jordan as Palestine, what do you think will the future bring? will we be able to live normal lives one besides the other?
Do you believe that the rest of the Arab world will accept such an unholy pact? Do you believe they will let it happen?
If you believe this is all feasible than here is your plan “B”. Start working on it. Don’t listen to people like Yamit, they are a small minority, trigger happy and angels of destruction.Don’t listen to people like “Shalom Achshav” or the Israeli left, They are all day drimmers. non of those has a viable solution.
If your answer is no, than we are all bound to live on our swords forever.
Please answer clearly without all the diplomatic bs.
If you can not answer, than you are just like all of us, we do not have a solution.
Ira.
@ Ira Curtis:
I will publish my plan B …..soon, and you will be able to judge…